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Comments about ‘What others say: Approve Keystone XL’

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Published: Wednesday, July 3 2013 12:00 a.m. MDT

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JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

"The Canadian tar sands will be tapped with or without Keystone"

This is an overriding factor. That OIL will be burned. Might as well run it to the gulf.

Rather than have our politicians sell out for campaign and lobby money, the US needs to get something for it. I am fairly confident that our politicians will put themselves and party ahead of the people.

As usual.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Stupid decision to stop the pipeline for at least three reasons:
#1: $4.00 gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy which is killing the economy and jobs unnecessarily.
#2: China will buy the oil and use it and the CO2 emissions (if you believe in manmade global warming) will happen anyway by a country that doesn't hold the same environmental standards!
#3: Obama wants to force "green energy" at any cost. So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy.
Stupid, stupid, stupid!

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

#1: $4.00 gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy which is killing the economy and jobs unnecessarily.

Lets see. After 6 years of GOP control, US gas prices hit a higher mark than at any time under Obama. Did the GOP cause this? Were the regulations worse then?

A reasonable review of gas prices would conclude that global events affect gas prices in the US much more than any US govt regulation.

#3 Federal support

Do you have any idea how much "federal support" that oil gets?

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

@ Joe. There you go playing fast and loose with the facts again.

#1:Gas prices have doubled since Mr. Obama took office. According to the GasBuddy, a national gasoline price tracking web site, the price of a gallon of regular gas was around $1.79 when Mr. Obama took office. Yep, sure enough, its Bush's fault!
#2: Oil companies get some tax incentives (not the same as green energy taxpayer subsides and loan guarantees) for energy development activities but pay billions in taxes. How much taxes did Solyndra or any of the dozens of taxpayer subsidized green energy companies pay?

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

Sigh

Repubs want us to compromise on this. Why? So oil that we refine can be shipped quickly to Asia? Don't we understand how oil is traded? This won't lower our fuel prices!

No more compromise on these issues. No more!!! Either the repubs come along with us to develop green energy or we won't have energy to meet our needs. Which I'm fine with. When we have blackouts guess who will be held responsible? Yes, the party that is quickly fading away. Bye bye GOP!

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

"@ Joe. There you go playing fast and loose with the facts again."

Not fast OR loose. I used gasbuddy also. You, my friend are cherrypicking the data. I am not.

In fact, here is a cut and paste from gasbuddy.

__
The highest that the national average hit during each President's tenure:
Bush: $4.122, July 15, 2008 (all time record high)
Obama: $3.965, May 11, 2011

The lowest that the national average hit during each President's tenure:
Bush: $1.611, December 31, 2008
Obama: $1.817, January 24, 2009 (days after sworn in)
__

So Mtnman, in roughly a 6 month period under Bush, gas went from $4.12 to $1.61. Care to tall me what Bush did to get the gas at an alltime high? Or down to $1.61?

My point is well substantiated.

It is a global market. What the US does is minor compared to global issues.

4601
Salt Lake City, UT

Obama laundered billions in tax payer money to fund green energy fiascos, $500 million+ in Solyndra alone. Much of the money was returned to his campaign by George Kaiser and other bundlers. The Keystone XL pipeline offers him no financial gains. As Alfred Lord Keynes noted, money is politics. When Mr. Obama flies Air Force One to Hawai'i on vacation, it's not running on solar panels.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Develop green energy? Can you spell, expensive, unreliable and not nearly as environmentally friendly as some would have us believe? Windmills are killing millions of wild birds and many are being shut down all over due to high costs. Solar energy production is expensive and not always practical(clouds and nighttime),and the batteries needed require mining and produces lots of pollution during the mineral refinement processes and then there is the disposal problem of spent batteries. One needs look no further than all the failures, bankruptcies and lack of competitiveness to prove this. Bottom line, if "green energy" will ever be practical it won't be government subsides that make it so, it will be the profit incentive to the private sector and that obviously does not exist at this time.

one old man
Ogden, UT

I completely agree with Mountainman. Indeed his claims are exactly what he says in the last line of his post.

one old man
Ogden, UT

His post at 7:28, that is . . . .

Baron Scarpia
Logan, UT

Here's my prediction: Keystone gets approved, but OPEC drops world oil prices back down to $2.50 or so in the U.S., making it unprofitable to process the Canadian tar sands and financing becomes a challenge, even with massive Canadian and U.S. subsidies.

Various NIMBY groups challenge permits across the Mid-west (some sponsored by environmentalists, some sponsored by foreign oil groups, some sponsored by local oil interests who want to keep oil prices high -- think of all the groups behind the delays of Cape Wind in Massachusetss), further delaying the project.

Keystone becomes a pipe dream.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

"#1: $4.00 gasoline caused by unnecessary government regulations on energy which is killing the economy and jobs unnecessarily."

Oil is a commodity traded on the global market. Whether it goes through the US or elsewhere this Keystone oil would have minimal impact on the price of oil globally.

"#2: China will buy the oil and use it and the CO2 emissions (if you believe in manmade global warming) will happen anyway by a country that doesn't hold the same environmental standards!"

If we buy the oil then China buys oil from somewhere else. It doesn't change anything. Again, global commodity.

"#3: Obama wants to force "green energy" at any cost. So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. "

I was going to criticize you for looking only at failures rather than successes or what even is a reasonable percentage success rate for investments... then I realized you sound like me when I'd talk about Romney's time at Bain Capital.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@Mountanman
"According to the GasBuddy, a national gasoline price tracking web site, the price of a gallon of regular gas was around $1.79 when Mr. Obama took office. Yep, sure enough, its Bush's fault!"

You do realize that gas averaged 4 dollars of gallon May 2008 right? Or over 3 dollars/gallon from 2007 through most of 2008. You know why the price of gas plummetted late 2008? The recession. The massive hit to the economy the last half of 2008 when we lost several million jobs reduced demand on gasoline which sharply lowered prices. It had nothing to do with Bush. A better comparison would be the 3.60 it's averaged in 2012-2013 under Obama vs the 2.90 it averaged from 2005-2007 under Bush.

NevadaCoug
Overton, NV

The national average for gasoline was higher at one point under Bush than at any time under Obama. BUT! What has the average gas price been during the whole length of each president's time in office? I'm pretty sure the numbers will show that energy prices have been much higher, on average, under Obama than Bush.

Re: Baron
You want to stop OPEC from being able to directly influence global energy prices so much? Allow the West to actually provide some real competition. Stop shackling energy production in the US. As somebody already pointed out, if you care so much about pollution, allow the oil to be drilled and refined in the US and Canada where there are actual anti-pollution regulations.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

@ Real Maverick. No cherry picking at all! All I said was gas was $1.79/ gal when Obama took office, which is true. I never said it was not higher at any time previously. BUT President Bush increased the drilling permits on federal land and something magical happened to the price of Gas; it went way down! If it were not for drilling on private land that Obama can not stop,(N. Dakota for example) gas would be hitting record high prices today!

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Keystone will help provide a buffer against geopolitical instability that at least equals any economic benefit. And far and away more than oil produced anywhere else in the world the Athabasca sands return economic benefits to the USA. You can see it when driving up and down the 15, massive tires and portions of dumptrucks the size of houses, all headed for Suncor or GCOS or half a dozen other extraction projects, all made in USA. You can see it in the new ADF metal fab plant going into Great Falls. Yeah, let's get this pipeline on the go.

atl134
Salt Lake City, UT

@Mountanman
"No cherry picking at all! All I said was gas was $1.79/ gal when Obama took office, which is true. I never said it was not higher at any time previously."

That's exactly what cherrypicking is... picking a data point without full context of the full timeline. The price of gas dropped from 4 dollars a gallon in early 2008 to 1.79 in early 2009 because of the global recession reducing worldwide demand. That type of price drop has nothing to do with any permit changes President Bush made (particularly since we're talking about a time period when Democrats controlled Congress...).

marxist
Salt Lake City, UT

...Pipelines generally are a safer way to transport fuel than the trains and tanker trucks used instead." This is not a slam dunk. Pipelines can be really dangerous. Witness breaks in the trans-Alaska pipeline and our own problems here in Utah with them, e.g. Red Butte (permanent damage) and Willard Bay (also permanent damage). Reliable transportation is already available to move this stuff - rail. In fact oil from fracking mostly moves by rail, and it is every bit as safe as pipelines. Don't endanger the Mid-West aquifer unnecessarily. As to the global warming debate - global warming is no joke - it's happening. The question remaining is to what degree it is man-caused. If we must move this oil let's disrupt nature as little as possible.

Tekakaromatagi
Dammam, Saudi Arabia

@Baron Scarpia:

"Here's my prediction: Keystone gets approved, but OPEC drops world oil prices back down to $2.50 or so in the U.S., making it unprofitable to process the Canadian tar sands and financing becomes a challenge, even with massive Canadian and U.S. subsidies."

OPEC does not control the price of oil. They sort of control the supply which sort of controls the price. OPEC doesn't have the extra production capacity to flood the market with so much oil that the price drops down that much.

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