let's roll LEHI, UTThe ironic part of this
discussion is that the same posters who believe so strongly that a higher ranked
recruiting class means you have the better team also believe that Utah is going
to eventually have success in the PAC-12.Utah is near the bottom in
PAC-12 recruiting and also near the bottom in the standings. I have
yet to see a viable roadmap for Utah to outrecruit those at the top of the
conference (USC, Stanford, Oregon) or even those in the middle (Washington, Cal,
UCLA, the Arizona schools). I'm all ears if someone has one,
since I'd like to see Utah have success in the PAC-12. Obviously, "We
play a PAC-12 schedule" isn't a recruiting advantage when you're
recruiting against PAC-12 schools. So how does Utah move up in the recruiting
battle? That said, you'd think Utah fans would be proponents of
the fact that innovation, desire and good coaching can lead teams to success
over those more "talented." If not, I'm afraid Utah is in for years
of futility in the PAC-12.I said that 2 years ago! Utah = forgotten!
@SpokaneUte "Take a deep breath before you blow a gasket!"?
I'm not blowing a gasket. It's the summertime, I was bored, and I
decided to trash talk with some trolls on BYU articles. It's all in good
fun, as I'm assuming your comment was, too :) If it
wasn't, then don't take things so seriously. Just relax, and enjoy
the playful banter...you'll be a lot happier :)Go Cougars!
@NavalVet:You're a true Blue BYU fan.
@truecougTake a deep breath before you blow a gasket!
@NavalVet "Indy-WACers would like to say Derrick Shelby, but the answer was
actually Jake Heaps. Shelby recovered Heaps' fumble. And that WAS forced.
Heaps could've fallen on the ball, or taken the sack, but instead, he
panicked -- due to the pressure "forced" by our Defense!"Which, again, I find ironic, since Jake Heaps was a "5-star" recruit,
and Shelby was a "2-star" recruit. Shouldn't the higher ranked
player with superior talent (supposedly) have won out in that situation?
Shouldn't he have been able to fall on the ball, or scoop it up and thrown
it out-of-bounds easily with just a lowly 2-star D-end bearing down on him?I'm so confused...Lol :)Congrats on beating
the "lowly, indyWACers" 3 times in a row. I don't know if
it's pathetic or funny that you demean BYU for being such a lowly,
indyWACer team and in the same breath beat your chest about "3 in a row, and
8 of 11" over the Cougs.Hilarious! Go Cougars!
@AZUTE1, Naval Vet, other Ute trollsOnce again, the fact that U come
onto BYU boards and are constantly comparing yourselves to BYU tells me all I
need to know about U, and about Utah.Fun little factoid: there were
two universities last year in the PAC 12 that finished 9th or worse in the
conference in football, basketball, AND baseball: Washington St and Utah.That's just sad. How does it feel to know that your program is the
same caliber as Wazzu?The fact that BYU football has lost 3 in a row
to a program of that caliber is pathetic.It's even MORE
pathetic that Utah IS a program of that caliber.No wonder
you're here on the BYU boards...not a whole lot to cheer about over on the
Utah side (unless you're into swimming program scandals and recruits
switching commitments).Stay classy, fellas. And keep using BYU as
your metric of success, it's extremely flattering and cute :)Go
@NavalVet "Utah's players don't go on missions? Somebody better
tell all those RMs in those 2 classes that they didn't really go."Again, nice spin job. Why don't U do me favor? Go back to that
2009 game and list all of the starters at Utah that went on missions that would
have been seniors that year (or in other words, all of the kids from the 2004
recruiting class for Utah)?Then do the same for BYU. I'll be
fascinated to see your results.@AZUTE1 "Per Scout, Isaiah Nacua
is de-committed from 2-Star byu."Per Rivals and ESPN, he's
still committed.Which again begs the questions: which one of these
recruiting services is right? I would venture to guess that it's the one
that casts your school in the best light. And how are the final polls (AP,
Coaches, BCS, Sagarin) all subjective, while recruiting services aren't?Just curious :)Go Cougars!
@NavalVet "How does reporting a 16-4 record against our other 2 instate FBS
opponents NOT support that THOSE reankings reflect substantial validity?"Because it can be explained away as being an "anomalous
exception", much like Boston College's record against Notre Dame over
the past 10 years is to you. BYU was horrible back when you went on a 4 game
run during the Crowton years, there's no denying that. But the 5-3 record
against BYU that U have now could easily be 3-5 but for a blown call by the refs
and an unforced error by BYU.U seem to think that there is a vast
disparity in talent between the two schools which has led to Utah being up in
the series. I would disagree. I don't think there was a vast disparity in
talent when BYU took 3 out of 4 a few years ago against Utah.I will
concur with U that the one thing Utah has been better than BYU at the last few
years is recovering our unforced fumbles. Your "superior" talent has
granted U that, lol.Go Cougars!
"Example: Isaiah Nacua for BYU is rated as a 3 star prospect...."Per Scout, Isaiah Nacua is de-committed from 2-Star byu.@
Naval Vet--That snap returned for a TD by Lee last September was
100% forced. When Star lined-up directly over C at NG, 2-Star byu's C
immediately forgot about his responsibility of cleaning snapping the ball back
and, instead, focused 100% on how in the world he'd survive to play another
down. I witnessed this repeatedly throughout Star's career, as this C
immediately became terrified/frantic/emotional, just like all of the others did.
Look at the emotional-mess USC's Stud C Holmes became, for instance, as he
attempted in vain to play Star straight-up, which immediately resulted in UTAH
going-up, 14-0, before the USC coaches wised-up and gave him mandatory help.No, that bad snap was 100% forced by Star's mere presence,
unequivocally!Also, UTAH forced 4 of the 7 TOs by 2-Star byu in
2011. There's a video online, in which all 7 TOs are analyzed, for all to
view. This, too, is unequivocal! 44-PTS just simply can't be Spun-away!
trueIndyWACer1:"...the majority of Utah's starters are
juniors and seniors who don't have missions to worry about,...Nice spin
job, Naval, but your argument just got blown up."Utah's
players don't go on missions? Somebody better tell all those RMs in those
2 classes that they didn't really go.Nice spin job
trueIndyWACer, but YOUR argument just got blown up."I think
it's ironic that you call final polls subjective, but say nothing about the
subjectivity of recruiting databases when each one of those varies wildly from
the other."How does reporting a 16-4 record against our other 2
instate FBS opponents NOT support that THOSE reankings reflect substantial
validity? That's a lot of games there. Did Utah go 16-4 vs. teams like
Michigan and Alabama? No. And notice that I didn't say that we went 20-0,
or 16-0. Having superior recruiting classes doesn't "guarantee"
victory. But it DOES impact greatly the outcome of the game. Better athletes
(more "stars") = better record vs. inferior athletes (fewer
"stars"). You can't effectively argue against it, so you're
desperately tossing out all kinds of red herrings. But logical
fallacies don't work on me. Epic fail.
@ MacNasty"FYI: Last year the Cougs had 10 games nationally
televised, your Utes 1. Conference bottom dwellers indeed get little national
exposure and attention."Last season: Utah vs. USU -
ESPN2Utah vs. BYU - ESPN2Utah vs. USC - ESPNUtah vs, UCLA -
FoxUtah vs. Oregon St. - ESPN2Utah vs. Arizona - ESPNUThe rest of the games could be found on the PAC-12 newtworks or FX. Congrats
on being 100% wrong.
trueIndyWACer:"And again, the only reason BYU hasn't won 5
of 7 against Utah is because of a blown call from the refs in 2010 (not to
mention a bunch of other fluke plays) and an unforced error by BYU last year
(botched snap returned for a TD)...Nothing to do with talent."Nothing to do with talent? Who is more prone to producing "unforced
errors"? The athlete with MORE talent, or the athlete with LESS?
Furthermore, all that "unforced error" talk has been way overstated.
It's really more of an excuse because you can't admit it when
you're wrong, or when you're not the better team. Take that 1st TD in
the 2011 game that you all like to call "unforced". After the Center
snapped the ball over Heaps' head, who recovered the fumble?Indy-WACers would like to say Derrick Shelby, but the answer was actually Jake
Heaps. Shelby recovered Heaps' fumble. And that WAS forced. Heaps
could've fallen on the ball, or taken the sack, but instead, he panicked --
due to the pressure "forced" by our Defense!You keep losing
because we've been the better team. Period. "Unforced errors" is
just a weak excuse.
The Scarlet "REDS" up on the Hill recruit the same kids as the
"Y" does. Remember that the "REDS" were in the beginning before
the world ever was! Those that have "ears to hear, let them
hear"!The "BLUES" have the most unique opportunity next
to their "OTHER" mentor in Independence, aka "The Irish"I can hear the whisper from the fields!!! "If you build it, they
will come"And come they will, from sea to shining sea..... And
even beyond the borders of this Great Country
The ironic part of this discussion is that the same posters who believe so
strongly that a higher ranked recruiting class means you have the better team
also believe that Utah is going to eventually have success in the PAC-12.Utah is near the bottom in PAC-12 recruiting and also near the bottom in
the standings. I have yet to see a viable roadmap for Utah to
outrecruit those at the top of the conference (USC, Stanford, Oregon) or even
those in the middle (Washington, Cal, UCLA, the Arizona schools). I'm all ears if someone has one, since I'd like to see Utah have
success in the PAC-12. Obviously, "We play a PAC-12 schedule"
isn't a recruiting advantage when you're recruiting against PAC-12
schools. So how does Utah move up in the recruiting battle? That
said, you'd think Utah fans would be proponents of the fact that
innovation, desire and good coaching can lead teams to success over those more
"talented." If not, I'm afraid Utah is in for years of futility in
@NavalVet "You all outrecruited the Utes in 2: 2004 and 2007. The majority
of your starters are Juniors and Seniors with missions and/or redshirt years.
That basically puts the majority of those 2009 athletes in the 2003 and 2004
recruit classes."Okay, so using your logic, the majority of
Utah's starters are juniors and seniors who don't have missions to
worry about, which means the majority of their players in 2009 were from the
2005 or 2006 classes, both of which rank higher than BYU's class in
2004.Nice spin job, Naval, but your argument just got blown up. I think it's ironic that you call final polls subjective, but say
nothing about the subjectivity of recruiting databases when each one of those
varies wildly from the other.Example: Isaiah Nacua for BYU is rated
as a 3 star prospect, 25th ranked in his position by Rivals, a 3 star prospect,
65th ranked at his position by Scout, and a 4 star prospect, 27th ranked in his
position.So who's right?Just something for you to
@NavalVet "The BC-Notre Dame series was more likely some anomolous exception
to the rule. Just look at the turnover in coaches at Notre Dame during that time
span."Oh, of course, the classic "anomolous (sic)
exception" fallback. Nice try, Naval Vet. What does turnover in coaching
have to do with anything? According to you, recruiting rankings have a direct
correlation to one team's success against another. The team that is ranked
higher should win the majority of the time. But that didn't hold true with
BC and Notre Dame, nor with BSU/Oklahoma, BYU/Oklahoma, Utah/Alabama,
Appalachian St/Michigan, etc.And again, the only reason BYU
hasn't won 5 of 7 against Utah is because of a blown call from the refs in
2010 (not to mention a bunch of other fluke plays) and an unforced error by BYU
last year (botched snap returned for a TD).Nothing to do with
talent.If recruiting rankings determined success on the field, then
Alabama wouldn't have been national champs 3 years in a row and Wisconsin
wouldn't have been to the Rose Bowl 3 years in a row either.
Navel,"In fact, that game was won by the 3rd Qtr."What game were you watching?That must be why the u fans rushed the
field when the third quarter ended.I am going to love your absence
when BYU beats utah this year.
trueIndyWACer1:"Local media here in Utah (Jake Scott and Tony
Parks) were talking about how Utah beating BYU was a big upset last year, and
that BYU lost the game rather than Utah winning it...Doesn't sound like
they thought Utah was more talented."It doesn't matter what
Scott and Parks "think". The game happened. We won. In fact, that
game was won by the 3rd Qtr."BYU has given Utah the rivalry game
on a silver platter in two of the last three years."Not so
little brother. The Indy-WACers aren't in the business of gifting
ANYTHING. In fact, the reason why you all were the most hated team in the
WAC/MWC was because you all weren't "team players". You were all
in it for yourselves. Utah won those games because we were the better team.
And one of the reasons why we were the better team was because we have superior
athletes (with more "stars"), and superior coaches. And while the Band
of Little Brother upgraded their coaching staff by adding Anae and dumping
Doman, Utah ALSO upgraded OUR coaching staff by adding Erickson and KEEPING
trueIndyWACer1:The BC-Notre Dame series was more likely some
anomolous exception to the rule. Just look at the turnover in coaches at Notre
Dame during that time span. This scenerio does not apply similarly to the
recruiting amid the Utah schools since the only school to change coaches was
Utah St."It's also interesting that when BYU finished
beating Utah 3 out of 4 times back in 2009, Utah had out-recruited them every
year but one during that streak."Not quite little brother. You
all outrecruited the Utes in 2: 2004 and 2007. The majority of your starters
are Juniors and Seniors with missions and/or redshirt years. That basically
puts the majority of those 2009 athletes in the 2003 and 2004 recruit classes.
@Naval VetIt's also interesting that when BYU finished beating
Utah 3 out of 4 times back in 2009, Utah had out-recruited them every year but
one during that streak.So I'm not really sure what your point
about recruiting is. Utah definitely has scoreboard, but has it really been
because of a huge discrepancy of talent? Local media here in Utah (Jake Scott
and Tony Parks) were talking about how Utah beating BYU was a big upset last
year, and that BYU lost the game rather than Utah winning it.Doesn't sound like they thought Utah was more talented. BYU
has given Utah the rivalry game on a silver platter in two of the last three
years. That's cool, because that's how rivalries go, and most games
come down to one or two plays. That's what makes it awesome! It'll
be sad to see it go away for a couple of years, though hopefully it will give us
a break from trolls like yourself, so there is that to look forward to :)Go Cougars!
@Naval Vet "If you REALLY want to take the position that recruiting rankings
don't really matter, then please explain why the team with the superior
recruits is 16-4 (.800) against those other two."I don't
understand...Notre Dame has out-recruited Boston College every year except one
since 2002 (according to Rivals, your favorite recruiting site). Yet BC has won
6 out the last 10, including 6 in a row during a time when Notre Dame dominated
them in recruiting.How in the heck did THAT happen, since Notre Dame
was obviously the better team and getting better recruits?Fortunately, you explained that the finals polls are subjective, hence the
discrepancy in why Utah has finished behind BYU in the polls for 3 of the last 4
years.. It's a good think that recruiting databases aren't subjective
at all, or else we'd be in serious trouble and wouldn't know how to
explain such crazy anomalies as the BC/Notre Dame series (roll my eyes).Go Cougars!
Tators:"If Utah recruits are so much better than BYU and USU,
exactly why is it that Utah finishes dead last of those 3 schools at end of the
year national rankings?"Because those rankings are subjective
and based primarily on W/L records. And since the Indy-WACers SOS is so weak,
they subsequently win more games. Polls are conducted for the purpose of
deciding who the best teams are since obviously, they can't all play each
other. But for as long as Utah plays our Indy-WACey little brother, there can
be no question as to who is the better team. And since Utah keeps beating you,
we're the better team.The Indy-WACers outrecruited the Utes
only 3 times these past dozen years. And they won only 3 games. Over that same
time frame, the Aggies were outrecruited EVERY year, and they won only
once....and just barely. If you REALLY want to take the position that
recruiting rankings don't really matter, then please explain why the team
with the superior recruits is 16-4 (.800) against those other two.
All of this comes down to money... Some schools need an AQ conference because
they need to offset the taxpayer money they get to cover the cost of their
athletic programs... And even then some fall short... Some are
caught with substandard facilities, low gate receipts, and without enough
revenue to bring them up to a competitive level... As a result, those schools
will change just about anything just so they can be accepted by an AQ conference
and some AQ conferences are more lucrative than others... If a
school already has great facilities and has large gate receipts plus a strong
national draw, then belonging to an AQ conference may not be as important... At
least from a money stand point it is not, and as a result they really don't
have to give up as much in tradition principals... They will be fine financially
because their athletic programs probably pay for themselves... Notre Dame would
be an example, and I'm sure their is a couple of others... Once
the finances are taken care of all you have to do is worry about scheduling and
reputation... And having the 15th best FB program is also probably enough.
While ND is in the ACC it is only for olympic sports. They still RETAIN their
INDEPENDENT football status while being helped in the scheduling department with
5 ACC teams a year... and ACC whoopty doo! Yes, it was BCS during an era where
those three nefarious letters 'meant something' but really didn't
bring much meat to the potatoes of the 'system' in the championship
game.... Will we within the next 5 months witness final acceptance from BCS land
that it was the SEC and then every other swinging sally out there? No, we
won't... Because pride is the root of all evil. :)
2 for 1 is not as bad as the delusional would like to project it as. Which is
truly better? Being part of someone's schedule by conference affiliated
force or because they want to play the brand? Is it better to ... blah blah
blah, I'm rambling. Bottom line is that I am looking forward to the years
2019, 2021, and 2023 as we will have even more compelling head to head balance
to fight each other about... And so we have to go to the collesium twice after
playing host first... So during the next 10 years two games are in Arizona to
one in LES... Whoopty doo man! I mean seriously... The fights brought to the
battle ground are petty at best and insolent in truth! Get the best possible
schedule possible and go out and win... Win every game! That is the goal for any
team worth cheering for... Not some measly conference affiliation!
paddywac,Yet BYU still has a contract with ESPN, a contract that does not
include the word "experimental". Regardless of the date and time, BYU is
still on national TV, except when they have to play a MWC team at their
Re: Who am I sir @ 6:04 pmThank you for your admission of your
error; most trolls would not do that.I have a good suggestion, why
don't you stop trolling BYU articles. I don't troll Ute articles and
probably never will, but I find I have enough to say sticking to BYU
articles.If you just comment on Ute articles, I believe both of us
will be happier.
"If ESPN thinks a lot of BYU as you claim, why is BYU not showcased every
Saturday night during prime time?"Be careful what you wish
for.Already announced (and it's only July 1st): Sat, Sept 7, Texas at BYU, 7:00 PM ET ESPN2Fri, Oct 25, BSU at BYU, 8:00
PM ET ESPNCompare that to:Sat, Sept 14, Oregon State at
Utah, 10:00 PM ET FOX Sports 1Thu, Oct 3, UCLA at Utah, 10:00 PM ET FOX
TatorsHyrum, UTTo WACPaddingOurSchedule:If college
football fans were really turning their channels after finding a BYU football
game on, do you really think ESPN would've given them a long, financial
rewarding 8 year contract? No, they most definitely would not have. They are
much smarter than that. And perhaps even more-so than some Ute commenters.It's pretty obvious that ESPN has the means and resources to know
more of what it is that football fans like to watch more than you do. And
it's also pretty obvious that on a national level, BYU must be somewhat in
demand. The proof is in the pudding... I mean in the contract._______There is only so much that ESPN can do to protect its
experimental investment with BYU. Especially since they have conference
contracts, don't wan't to upset them by way of TV scheduling. If ESPN
thinks a lot of BYU as you claim, why is BYU not showcased every Saturday night
during prime time?Its because schools like Alabama, LSU, USC, Michigan and
others get higher viewer ratings.
@ tators and McNastyMY BAD! Thank you for correcting me. (That
shows how much I follow independence!) I take pride in being able to support my
claims - it truly is not often I have been found to make such a basic and
erroneous mistake. Please follow my post and see if I can live up to this last
Ok,here it goes to both BYU & UTE fans, "Who cares which team has the
best recruiting class", what counts is the final wins & standings.
Doesn't matter who you play only if you win with the talent you have.
Neither school will never have the 4 & 5 star players the "Big
Schools" have, good talent but not yet best. USC has 9 5 stars that will
never happen in the state of Utah with all the schools combined!!! So, play the
games and see who wins the most, it's that simple.
To WACPaddingOurSchedule:If college football fans were really
turning their channels after finding a BYU football game on, do you really think
ESPN would've given them a long, financial rewarding 8 year contract? No,
they most definitely would not have. They are much smarter than that. And
perhaps even more-so than some Ute commenters.It's pretty
obvious that ESPN has the means and resources to know more of what it is that
football fans like to watch more than you do. And it's also pretty obvious
that on a national level, BYU must be somewhat in demand. The proof is in the
pudding... I mean in the contract.
To Who Am I Sir:You sir, are someone not very informed with your
football facts. Like McNasty pointed out, Notre Dame has chosen to retain its
football independence, even though they could've joined the ACC in that
sport next year, too. Their independence has worked out great for them,
something obvious to even people not so informed regarding college football
facts. And though BYU is no Notre Dame yet, it's the same
independence path they are pursuing, and for the same reasons. And most
indicators are showing that it's working out very well. They are now
playing on national TV multiple times as often as Utah is and they are
continuing to play in post-season bowl games each year... something Utah can no
longer claim. Please be a bit more careful with the facts you choose
to use and from where you choose to cast your criticisms. Both things will help
readers take you a bit more seriously.
WACPaddingOurSchedule"Interesting, college football fans see BYU
on TV, wonder why they have a football team, and flip the channel."You're confusing what you do with what many other people are doing.How could you possibly know what people do when they see BYU football on
T.V.?Why would the opposing teams fans turn the channel?And why would anyone except u trolls look at BYU and wonder why they have a
football team?Most of the country is not as cynical as you. I watch
the BYU Notre Dame Game at Six Flags Magic Mountain with 100 other people. MANY
of whom were not ND fans. No one asked to change the channel.
To Naval Vet, Howard S, etc.:If Utah recruits are so much better
than BYU and USU, exactly why is it that Utah finishes dead last of those 3
schools at end of the year national rankings? And if that is true, then why is
it that Utah is the only one of those schools to be only watching instead of
playing in end of season bowl games? It would seem your rationale concerning
recruit quality doesn't carry much weight in the real world. One more thing you should eventually start understanding. Being in a BCS
conference doesn't mean jack squat to most quality recruits if you
can't win those conference games. It makes so sense at all to feel great
about being on a BCS conference team that consistently finishes in a contest for
the conference cellar each year. None. You really need to find something else to
start touting... something that makes more sense.
MyPerspectiveThis comment epitomizes u trolls faulty thinking "Refrain from getting caught up in talk that deep down, every
program wants it. They don't."Who are you to decide that?
Why are you lumping all BYU fans in the same group?Have you ever
read a single comment where I have said that BYU is what everyone wants to
be?Nope.Again, answer my original questions. what do you
win if you convince BYU fans that they are second class to u?Nothing.But don't come to BYU articles, take a swing at BYU
fans, have them swing back with a vengeance, and then play the victim. Don't pretend to be sanctimonious and that your only there to correct
mistrusts. You're the one coming to the comment boards looking for a
fight.It is laughable that vet, hegie, you, chris, and the lot come
here to "justify" your place in the world. It is incredibly interesting
that you would spend time arguing about something you can't win.Navel lint: Mission accomplished? Who are you Bush?Is football
MyPerspective"Why are you people compelled to do that if not for
wanting to ensure that you can elevate yourselves above others without
objection?"Interesting. One need only look at who drew first
blood to see if what you said is true.You attack BYU fans on BYU
articles. BYU fans defend themselves. Now you are going to play the victim?Weak.It doesn't take a u bachelors of arts degree to
see that your comments are disingenuous.
Many schools need a
Conference-Crutch. They are unable to go it alone on their own name.
____Apparently BYU had to go it alone on its name. Was not
enough to get them invited to a conference.
Re: Who am I sir @11:37 amNice try at deception, but if you follow
sports at all you know that Notre Dame football remains independent.Other sports will be with the ACC, but not football. OOOOPPPPS!
trueblueBYUProvo, UTDoes Utah still have a football program? I never
see them on TV anymore. Why would that be?_____Interesting, college football fans see BYU on TV, wonder why they have a
football team, and flip the channel. Why would that be?BYU fans are exited
to see the Cougs on TV, nothing else. Even why continuing the tradition of
losing to ranked teams.
Does Utah still have a football program? I never see them on TV anymore. Why
would that be?
Hedgehog,Remind us all about the big venue that the Utes have!!! How
they are fast tracking the expansion of RES to accommodate the people on the
huge waiting list for season tickets!!! How the Utes have torn trough their
competition, won their division and beat both foes in the Rose Bowl!!! I never
get tired of seeing all the banners being raised in Utah's venues!!! I only
wish I could contain my jealousy while seeing my lowly Cougars accept the
commissioners cup for the lowly WCC conference!!!Go Cougs!!!Go
Actually, STuFOO...it's posts like yours telling those with opposing points
of view to get lost that I'm referring to. Why are you people compelled to
do that if not for wanting to ensure that you can elevate yourselves above
others without objection? I have no problem with byu fans cheering
on their team until I see comments conveying the notion that every program in
the country wants to be byu. That simply is not the case and I will (and do)
step in. Contrived conspiracy theories about why byu was left out of the Pac-10
will also illicit a response.Contrary to what you suggest, I
don't think independence is not a bad idea for byu. However, I do think
it's the only option they have. These feel good articles from the local
media serve to keep the fan base energized but it's little more that a
continual stream of selling ponies and rainbows to the fans. If it works for
you, great. Refrain from getting caught up in talk that deep down, every
program wants it. They don't.
Better recruits go in, more drafted by the NFL players come out, but what are
they doing in there in the middle???Going from mediocre to worse.
Someone mentioned "carp in a stagnant pond." Nice illusion, but it just
doesn't fit. @ ND, @ Texas, @ Wisconsin, @ USC (and yes, the article is
talking about the recruiting advantages of playing in storied venues), these do
not describe a stagnant pond. But the other day I went out to my
koi pond and saw a guppy belly up, and it sure reminded me of Utah.
down under,Seems that when it comes to vs the Utes on the field, byu
does less with "more".
@Howard S. "Indy has hurt BYU recruiting"How? How has Indy
hurt BYU's recruiting? U already lost all credibility when U
"frantically and emotionally" said that the three Indy recruiting
classes are the worst in Bronco's tenure, when, as I showed, they
aren't. U lose credibility by saying "Indy has hurt BYU
recruiting" when U have guys like Tim Duran, Trajan Pili, Fred Warner, Trent
Trammell, etc all talk about how seeing BYU on ESPN helped them make their
decision to commit.I've also showed that 2 of BYU's 3
recruiting classes since going Indy were better than their average class ranking
before going independent.So how has independence hurt BYU
recruiting? Please show me some empirical evidence that supports your position.
Otherwise, I'll just be forced to conclude that you "frantically and
emotionally" made that up.But again, thanks for your love of all
things BYU, Howard. It's always nice to see BYU picking up more and more
Howie, And yet BYU is still ranked higher than Utah and still goes to bowl
games. I guess BYU coaches are far superior to the Utah coaches and do more
It's not often that I agree with a Ute poster on a BYU article, but
'Who am I sir?' does strike a nerve when he mentions Cougar fans
comparing BYU to Notre Dame. Makes me cringe. Also glad to see that some Utah
fans recognize that they are not USC.This time of year kills
me...can't wait for the fall.It's going to be an interesting
year for sure for BYU, Utah, and USU. I'll be rooting for the boys in blue
(both teams) in all their games except when they play each other.
@truecoug1You have written several hundred words spin the decline in
BYU recruiting since the Indy announcement.The truth can be written
in five words... Indy has hurt BYU recruiting...Simple and true.
@ MacNasty"I will forward your sage analysis on to Notre Dame to
illuminate them as the futility of independence."Please do;
however don't delay. Next year they are a member of the ACC!Side note: To me the best thing BYU could do is recognize you are NO Notre
Dame. And we are no USC. How many time have I read BYU fans say they want
scheduling games "the same as Notre Dame has" or Bowl arrangements
or..... Or when the Y fans say USC can schedule out of conference games in
November why can't the U. Because we are not USC. We agreed to the
negotiated PAC-12 entrance where it would be 4 years before we gained 100%
revenue sharing as the other PAC-12 teams because we held no disillusions. Were
we equals to other members at the time of admission? No. But we are in the
@Naval VetTo borrow a template from one of your fellow Ute
"fans":"D-II QB", "tied for 3rd", "4th
best full-season record", "upset GA Tech", "one of only two
postseason wins" "19 months ago.""THAT's
@ Naval VetA team from the PAC 11+U played in the Rose Bowl every
year..... The fact that Utah played in a couple of BCS Bowls isn't all that
impressive to them. Next time a PAC11+U team comes to RES to play Utah for an
easy win why don't you show them a couple ticket stubs from when Utah
played in a BCS bowl. I will hear the laughing all the way out here in
Virginia. Keep believeing the PAC11+U wants Utah to represent the conference in
the Rose Bowl....In about 20 years the truth will finally set in as you again
sit at home alone during bowl season.... Utah might be a member the conference,
however, the real teams, accolades, awards and achievemnts in the PAC11+U are
always going to be way out of your league.
@Howard S.So there are two points that I'd like to make.
First, recruiting is completely subjective...see worf's comment below.
Databases differ in opinions, but also in size. No database has the scouts or
the resources to go to evaluate every kid that's out there. So there are a
lot of recruits that are evaluated, not on talent, but by how many offers they
have, without any scout ever having seen them play. That's why
you get guys like Eric Weddle and Dennis Pitta who were 2-star athletes coming
in to college, but both of whom flourished in college and in the pros.Second, BYU is different. They have much higher standards, both academically
and morally, than most every other university out there. That doesn't mean
BYU is better than every other university, just different. As such, they have a
much smaller pool of recruits to draw from. They will never have absurdly high
class rankings, mostly because of the limited number of kids they can offer, and
because they offer a lot of kids early, before they have a chance to be
evaluated.BYU will be just fine. But thanks for your concern :)
@My PerspectiveThe fact that a little over 1/3 of the comments on
this board are from Ute trolls...also very telling.The fact that 5
of the 8 most commented articles in the sports section are BYU-related...also
very telling.BYU drives the media and the ratings here in-state. It
shouldn't be surprising, then, that the D News has a series of articles
covering BYU as an independent in a positive light.I love being
independent. It's a perfect fit for BYU and what BYU stands for. I also
think it's great that Utah is in the PAC 12, not just for the university,
but for the state as well. It's a great fit for the PAC and for Utah.Both fan bases should be very happy! I love this time of the year,
though. It's when all of the trash-talking comes out, since nothing is
happening right now. I always enjoy it :)Go Cougars!
@Howard S.See my last post. A 6 year period and a 3 year period are
unbalanced, meaning any statistical comparison between the two is going to
flawed. What should be REALLY disconcerting for U is the
following:Since 2008, Utah's recruiting has been the best it has ever
been (according to most Ute fans) while its subsequent record, and/or ranking,
has decreased:2009: Class Ranking: #44. '09-'10 Record/Sagarin
Ranking: 10-3, 242010: Class Ranking: #32. '10-'11
Record/Sagarin Ranking: 10-3, 262011: Class Ranking: #37.
'11-'12 Record/Sagarin Ranking: 8-5, 392012: Class Ranking: #28.
'12-'13 Record/Sagarin Ranking: 5-7, 612013: Class Ranking: #44
'13-'14 Record/Sagarin Ranking: ???, ??Not a very good
trend. I'll be interested to see what happens this year.Go
MyPerspectivemore interesting is that you still care.What does it matter if BYU fans want to root for their team and read positive
articles about them?Why do you care if BYU like independence even
though you feel it is a bad idea?Why do you come here to tell BYU
fans that they are wrong and you are right?Who is more
delusional?the BYU fan who is hoping that they will have a great
year, is rooting for the team no matter the situation they are currently in, and
is hoping for the best...or a fan from a rival team whose bent on
putting them in their place and showing everyone that they are somehow superior?
My bet...Your delusion is much more telling. One is
normal and every team has the same normal fans (look at the Detroit Lions fans)
One is not normal.
STuFOO:"It is a strange little world you live in when your daily
goal is try try to convince your rival fans that you are better than they
are."That's not a "daily goal". That's
"mission accomplished". We convinced you all that 8 times over the past
11 seasons, including the last 3-yrs in a row.
Its comical how people put some much emphasis on conference affiliation. Really,
it boils down to Coaching staffs and what the school presents and offers, not
just the conference. I will say though, that the conference affiliation is like
the cherry on top or in BYU's case, just plain vanilla.
Interesting read...fun comments. The local press is still trying to
sell the byu faithful on independence which is very telling in it's own
right.byu fans still don't want an opposing point of view
because it detracts from the harmony of a one sided conversation. Also very
telling. byu fans still trying to explain on these boards why byu
wasn't selected by the Pac-10 in fulfillment of their 30 year dream. Also
very telling. No mention of the 2 for 1 arrangements byu has to
settle for. Also very telling. No mention of the dearth of bowl
opportunities. Also very telling.Talk of great recruits with no
mention of the mediocre rankings of recruiting classes. Also very telling.No mention of ND moving to a quasi-conference arrangement while byu is
completely invested in independence. Also very telling.Yep...all is
well in independence land.
@truecoug1Six year average per Indy is 60th...Three year
average post Indy is 64th...Indy recruiting not really headed in the
right direction as the BYU spin machine would have you believe.
@Howard S. "The truth is that BYU recruiting has declined since the
announcement of Indy."Again, that statement is inaccurate.From 2002-2010 (the year before BYU went independent), BYU's
average class ranking per Rivals was a 63.Since going independent,
BYU's average class ranking has been a 64 (uh oh, we're going down!).
But two of the classes that BYU has had since going independent both were ranked
slightly higher than the average class ranking before going independent (62 in
2011 and 61 in 2012 compared to the average of 63). The only reason for the
slight discrepancy in the average classes is the smaller sample size of
recruiting classes that we have to draw from since BYU went independent, causing
last year's class ranking of #70 to bring the average up to a 64.Because these two samples aren't balanced, it's impossible to draw
an accurate comparison between the two. Why don't we wait another six
years, and then compare the two again to see if BYU's recruiting classes
really are "declining"?Thanks for your interest though,
Howard. Nice to see another jump on to the BYU train :)Go Cougars!
Sounds right:"Why is it that ute fans are always on BYU articles
to comment. It's because they are not really ute fans just BYU
haters."Can't we be BOTH? What makes you think we're
compelled to choose one path or the other? Are you THAT narrow minded?"...if it was not for BYU being a Mormon school they would be in that conf
rather than Utah, because they bring so much more to the table."Does it bring a Medical School to the table? Does it bring "Tier-1
Research" status? Does it bring any BCS bowl history?No, no,
and no.All it'd bring would be a whiney persecution complex.
Utah brought the Med School, Tier-1 Research, and 2 BCS bowl trophies.Edge: Utah.
Y's Guy:"That's it? That's all you've got?
BYU's three recruiting classes? That's what you're hanging your
hat on? Talk about spin. LOL"Well, considering that the title of
this particular article is "BYU football: Scheduling as independent helps
recruiting", Howard S's comment seemed extremely "relevant".
Howard pointed out that the Indy-WACers recruiting has NOT been helped, and
provided proof that was in direct contrast to what the article claims.I'm not sure your YOUR point was. You're LOL-ing that your last 3
recruiting classes were the worst in menden2star's coaching tenure at the
Y? That's not "spin". That's the cold hard truth. Do you
even know what "spin" means, or is that just a word you keep seeing
popping up on these threads, and thought you'd use it too?
"And the BYU spin continues..."The only spin I see is utah
fans obsessed with BYU, making excuses for the lousy showing in the PAC 11+u,
and fans who think they have moved on, but have to prove their self worth on BYU
articles every day.I find it hilarious that u fans get all worked
over by a newspaper being positive about the local team, and looking forward to
this year.The question isn't why is DN so positive and
"spinning" news that get the fans ready...The question is
why ute trolls take exception to it and waste some much time trying to put BYU
fans in their place?It is a strange little world you live in when
your daily goal is try try to convince your rival fans that you are better than
I truly enjoy seeing the schedule of the Y getting stronger and stronger with
each indepedent year. I think that this was the right decision for BYU for so
many reasons. I think it would be fun to be a player for the Y going to all of
the different destinations they travel to, including Idaho. I think it would be
a challenge for coaching and players to learn all of the different schemes each
program brings. This will only make the Y players and coaches better overall.
Not taking anything away from the U, as it stands now, it is arguably more
challenging to be the U and having top-notch teams week in and week out. Great article.Go UTES!!
To CB, Vet, Howie, Hedgie, ETB, Ms. Mildred, and others like you,So
great you won the last recruiting battles. That was quite an achievement! Even
more impressive was the results of winning those recruiting battles...a prime
spot on your couches during the post season bowls and the prestigious honor of
being bottom feeders in your college of champions ever since you joined. May I
politely ask you guys to please stop the nonsense until you've actually
accomplish something in your conference, will ya? I'll be the first to
rise and acknowledge that if and when it happens, and I absolutely want to see
you guys do it. But until then, can you please put a lid to it! Thanks!Go Cougars, USU, and the Utes too!!!
"Recruits that sign with BYU, particularly from outside of Utah, often say
one reason is the Cougars regularly appear on ESPN networks...Offensive lineman
Tim Duran, a junior college transfer from Puyallup, Wash., who signed with the
Cougars last February, is not a member of the LDS Church and didn't know
much about BYU before he became a target of the Cougars' recruiting
efforts...But he had seen the Cougars on television." -- Jeff CallI wonder if recruits that signed with the Indy-WACers often say one reason for
their ultimate decision was that they were otherwise a 2-star recruit with zero
other offers...like the aforementioned offensive lineman, Tim Duran?
Howard S.;Recruit ranking is not very reliable.If it
was, Notre Dame, and Texas would be playing for the national championship almost
every year.BYU would never be a top twenty five team, or be winning
ten games most years.
@Howard S. "The truth is that BYU's three recruiting classes since the
Indy announcement have been the lowest ranked in Bronco's tenure." The truth is that that statement is completely false.Per
Rivals (every Ute fan's favorite recruiting website), we find the following
information"Bronco Mendenhall Era Recruiting Class Rankings2005:
#632006: #672007: #562008: #832009: #502010:
#402011: #622012: #612013: #702008 was the worst
ranked class in the Bronco Mendenhall era at #83. The 2013 class would be next
at #70, while both 2011 and 2012 would rank 5th and 4th respectively in
Bronco's classes.So definitely NOT the lowest in Bronco's
Nice work Bronco; come for the football, stay for the education.
"Feeling the sting of rejection, Mendenhall chose to play at Oregon
State."Chris, this can't be?
Why is it that ute fans are always on BYU articles to comment. It's
because they are not really ute fans just BYU haters. I never read a Utah
article, and that's because i could care less about their program. They
finish at the bottom of the conference in every sport and everybody knows if it
was not for BYU being a Mormon school they would be in that conf rather than
Utah, because they bring so much more to the table.
@Y's GuyThe article is about how Indy helps recruiting...The truth is that BYU recruiting has declined since the announcement of
Indy.I'm not hanging my hat on anything other than the truth...
no spin or elaboration needed.
Let's look at the next 20 years for BYU and Utah. Most sports writers and
coaches would say that Utah will have a DIFFICULT, if not impossible, chance of
winning a championship in the PAC12 in football or basketball. They'll be
lucky to have a winning record.That's the hard facts. So how
will that help Utah get into BCS bowls? It won't!So Utah will
brag about playing in the PAC12 and probably get either no bowl games or some
really horrible ones.And, they will not ever have the tv coverage
that BYU will have, just based on reality. Plus, they don't have BYUtv.BYU will play some good opponents, have great tv coverage, and play in
bowl games every year. That has been demonstrable and it looks like BYU will be
getting better.How does that sound to Utah fans?
Howard S.Taylorsville, UT"And the BYU spin continues...The
truth is that BYU's three recruiting classes..."That's
it? That's all you've got? BYU's three recruiting classes?
That's what you're hanging your hat on? Talk about spin. LOL
And the BYU spin continues...The truth is that BYU's three
recruiting classes since the Indy announcement have been the lowest ranked in
@worf- I agree with you completely. And, as you especially know, coming from
Texas, it will greatly interest many, within that vast football talent pool to
look at living in Provo for 4 years.
Busy morning for the Ute trolls. They are nervous that a school with higher
standards for academics and personal conduct is getting more press. Being the
doormat in the PAC12 doesn't seem to fill their needs.
I think most BYU fans realized that going independent was going to be difficult
at first in terms of recruiting. Independence was a gamble at first, and
didn't provide the most enticing scheduling. I think BYUs recruiting
suffered somewhat the initial couple years as recruits were mulling over what
kind of program BYU would be and where they would play etc. Now that the
schedules are becoming more enticing and BYU has shown that independence works
(much more money and exposure than the MW), more of the bigger name recruits
like Warner, Kurtz, kearsley, etc are starting to be more interested. I think in
the end if BYU wins and makes splashes nationally you will only see that
recruiting get better.Utah can continue being #1 in recruiting and
finishing last where it counts IMO. Mcnasty hit it on the head...no one cares
about your recruits, they care how you finish. For ute trolls it's all
about stars, not championships or rankings, so it's no wonder U find
yourself getting sent to the back of the line while your big brothers (BYU
included) get their rankings, awards, and bowls and U wait for sloppy seconds.
Geez, look what furry friend came out of hibernation. Or has she been here all
along using one of her other handles? This article and its
conclusion cannot possibly be correct or my name is not Howie Vet Chris gored
navel S. B. Earnest Mildred the IV.Only a national brand can make
independence work to its advantage.
Replacing Utah with Nebraska is helping recruiting.Playing a ute
team who is behind BYU, USU, Weber, and Bingham is not very attractive.
Who am I sir?"Independence is like a one-time fling. Short term
enjoyment. Long term meaningless. Nothing on the line. Each game means nothing
towards league standings; nothing towards which, if any, possible bowl
invitations; nothing towards all-conference selections; nothing in comparison
with previous (or future)wins/losses against each opponent; nothing towards
developed rivalries; in short, it is an island - isolated and set apart from any
other considerations. It is only a game - be it against Nebraska or Idaho, or
New Mexico, or Middle Tennessee State, or...."I will forward
your sage analysis on to Notre Dame to illuminate them as the futility of
independence.FYI: Last year the Cougs had 10 games nationally
televised, your Utes 1. Conference bottom dwellers indeed get little national
exposure and attention.
We will soon start to see the disadvantages independent recruiting.Then
the byu "fans" can add another excuse to "honor code" and
Quote All American BYU qb Mark Wilson. “(Independence) is interesting,
but I’m an old-school guy who misses rivalries and all that history. Now
we don’t talk about that stuff. It's different schools. They are
great schools, but schools we don’t have much history with.” (added
note - one or two games does not a history make.)Independence is
like a one-time fling. Short term enjoyment. Long term meaningless. Nothing
on the line. Each game means nothing towards league standings; nothing towards
which, if any, possible bowl invitations; nothing towards all-conference
selections; nothing in comparison with previous (or future)wins/losses against
each opponent; nothing towards developed rivalries; in short, it is an island -
isolated and set apart from any other considerations. It is only a game - be it
against Nebraska or Idaho, or New Mexico, or Middle Tennessee State, or....
We are getting tons of awesome recruits right now.
Like most articles on BYU, most of the comments here are from frustrated little
Utes with apparently nothing to do on a Monday morning. As bad as BYU may be,
Utah gets its recruits and fan base from exactly the same places as BYU, and
from an outsider's perspective is also a Utah school with mostly Mormons.
One student body lives on a campus with lots of peculiar culture norms. The
other lives at home with Mom. So not a big difference. I don't
get it...if Utah has supposedly "moved on", why are some Ute fans so
fixated on BYU?? I'm the oldest of several brothers...I could care less
what my "little brothers" are doing and don't sit around dissing
their achievements all week long.
Chris B"Out of Utah, BYU, and USU, care to know who WON the
recruiting battle the last 3 years?Utah."Last year
between Utah, BYU and USU, Utah came in last in the final polls.
Having lived outside of Utah for the past 15 years I have seen a huge difference
in exposure relative to independence.. As part of the MWC I had to really
struggle to find the games and 30% of the time even if we maxed out our cable
upgrades we still would not have access. Rarely did anyone from work mention
they watched BYU play one of their games. Since going independent we have been
able to watch every game and it is common for my coworkers to comment about
having seen BYU playing on TV. Knowing that your friends and family can watch
you play every week regardless of where they live in the United states I am sure
helps to bring players to BYU.
You want to know what helps recruiting?Going to BCS games, winnings
BCS games, top 5 finishes, having true athletes as potential teammatesOut of Utah, BYU, and USU, care to know who WON the recruiting battle the last
3 years?Utah.And that "winning" can be
determined by EITHERaverage starsORnumber of
kids who picked Utah out of kids who had offers to all 3 state schoolsAnd if you think stars don't matter....Nick Saban disagrees
with youGO Utes!
@hedgieDon't be so nervous, just accept the fact that BYU is a
unique institution with a National Brand and a "Genuine Legacy". They
(BYU) are desired by the biggest name in the World of Sports, ESPN. BYU has averaged 10 broadcasts a year on the ESPN networks. Utah...1.Coat-tailing bottom-feeders of Conferences (and every conference has
them) go unnoticed. They are the Washington Generals of their league.
Sparring partners for the real football programs of their Conference.see...UtahMany schools need a Conference-Crutch. They are unable
to go it alone on their own name. And that's OK too...see UtahBYU has established assets, one hundred million dollars has been
invested into BYU broadcasting alone. Their program has checked all the boxes
with College Football's highest honors.BYU fans all over the
world can now once again see every game on TV.If that means playing in San
Diego instead of El Paso or Boise...so be it.As for the only bowls
that really matter, the 4 team playoff, BYU's access is just as good as any
Lots of jealousy from the hill trolls this morning.It's a great
time to be a BYU fan!
How can independence help recruiting. Since announcing indy the y has had there
3 worst recruiting classes ever.
Was that "exposure" not precisely the driving force behind going
independent? For fans, it was definitely frustrating while living outside the
geographic bounds of "The Mountain", and only getting to see / hear
Cougar games via streaming audio. For potential recruits, this is a
decided boon. For fans, it's simply "fantastic." For missionary
work (firesides), it is ideal.
These are great recruiting upgrades.....if your comparing your program against
Idaho St or Dixie.Any BCS program can offer big venues but can also
add1 for 1 with storied program forever Division and confernce
championhipsElite bowl tie ins.Go ahead and drink th kool-aid
but understand what it really means (big carp in a stagnat swamp)