Re: LostActually, you might want to take that revamped civics course
yourself. Many, if not most, constitutional scholars acknowledge that the
Constitution was a contract between the people and the proposed federal
government. Hence the preamble, "We the People." That relationship was
in fact one of the main legal tenets for declaring secession unconstitutional.
The States have no recourse to leave the Union, the people do.
re: Kent C. DeForrestExactly. When one is extreme and thinks they
are (dare I say?) moderate then it makes the truly moderate seem like they are
out on the lunatic fringe.Let us all thank Rush, Roger Ailes, Pretty
boy Sean, & Uncle Rupert for getting so many to fall for that nice little
piece of misdirection. ROFL!?“…in politics, what is real
is not important. The important is what appears to be real to the
gullible” – The Cobra by Frederick Forsyth
happy2bhereThe best way to lose a war is to fail to see it coming.
Reading the signs they hold, the flags they fly and the things they do to injure
our government, it’s hard not to think of the conservatives as an enemy of
America. Ronald Reagan said “the government is the problem” and
following his lead, the conservatives have fought to limit and reduce the power
of our national government. If the American government falls, America will fall
along with all within.
Lost in DCThe America we live in today is not the America of 200
years ago. Today we are ruled by a code of law that evolved from those original
documents. In truth the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are merely the
first pages of the American code. 200 years ago, the states by
their remote location and independence were able to stand with the giants of
their world. Independently the states of today could not begin to protect
themselves if left to their own devices. It doesn’t really
matter what the situation was 200 years ago, in the year 2013 and on the words
Stand United or die are thousands of time more appropriate than earlier.
Ernest;You complain that you were called "UN-patriotic" for
criticizing Bush when he was President. Well I've seen you and your
friends calling many people "UN-patriotic" for criticizing Obama. Do
you realize that today YOU are doing the exact same thing you complain about
Bush sycophants doing when he was in office? I'm pretty sure you think YOU
are justified doing it today.. but they weren't. That's the way
partisan coolaid works.If you ask me the "UN_Patriotic"
accusations are just as bad today (from the left), as they were back then (from
the right).You ask for consistency. Are you consistent? I was against the Patriot Act when Bush proposed it. Same today. You claim
Fox was for it. I don't know if that's true but I know at least Glen
Beck and the Tea Party people were against it. I was against the comprehensive
immigration legislation proposed under Bush. I'm against the same
legislation now (until we enforce what we already have). I think that's
consistent regardless of the party. According to DeForrest,
I'm "Far-right". Yet I've been consistent. Is the Far-left
Ernest,The name calling was on another topic (a few days ago, can't
remember the topic). The point is... lets drop the name calling "nut
job", "Un-patriotic", "Repugs", etc. Both sides.We're actually doing very well today. I was just concerned that your
claim that somebody called you a "nut job" would start the usual daily
name calling again (which gets us nowhere).I never heard it, but I
guess I was called "Un-Patriotic" back during the Bush days too, because
I fought the Patriot_act (on principle). Not because I thought we didn't
need it, but because of the possibility that future administrations would
probably abuse it (and I was right). And I think much more abuse is in store
IF we leave it in place. Not by Obama necessarily but by some future
administration (could be either side).It's just bad
legislation, and IMO it's a bad decision to trade our Constitutional Rights
for the illusion of security. I think the government should find a way to
provide security without trampling guaranteed individual liberties, like the 4th
amendment, the 2nd amendment, and the 1st amendment.
2 bits,Funny thing is that almost all of the "left-leaning"
commenters (not daily bloggers) in this paper are rather middle-leaning. I guess
from the far-right haze everything looks liberal . . . and rather distorted.
Ernest T. You said that the Democrats look for the greater good, and that
Republicans are just in it to enrich themselves. Kind of a blanket generality
wouldn't you say? There are plenty of very rich Democrats who have not
given in their lifetimes what a very rich Mitt Romney has given in one year.
But people like you don't and won't see that in Republicans, you just
think we are all selfish and greedy. Ultra Bob, Really, "the
WAR against our national government" The only group that is at war with our
government is the terriorists. But then, as I pointed out with Ernest, maybe
people like you don't, won't see any good in
Republicans/conservatives. Maybe you think we are as bad or worse than
terriorists. Thanks for helping me validate my origional point.There You
Go Again, Take note.
"...It has been said that Conservatives believe that Liberals are
"wrong", but Liberals believe that Conservatives are
"evil"..."."...Said..." by Frank Luntz,
messaging guru for the Republican Party...Repeated by Republicans as
part of the daily Republican talking points.Frank Luntz by-the-way
is up for the Goebbels
He wasn't making a liberal argument... nor is he a liberal.
2 bits: when did I call anyone names? My original comment applies, in this
state, if you didn't buy in to the Iraq war, tax cuts for the wealthy, the
patriot act, etc, you were labeled as non-patriotic. The reality is the best
patriots are those who question both parties, not just the dems. I don't
recall fox news outraged about the patriot act but now that the other party is
in the White House their outrage seems to be never ending. An "honest
patriot" questions all of it, not just along party lines.
Ernest,You make it impossible to carry on a constructive discussion when
you keep dredging up Bush's mistakes and pretend people called you names.
I've never seen anybody call you a "nut cake", but I've seen
you call lots of names. I tried to call you on it one day but I was over my 4
posts already, but I counted 8 name calling episodes from you in one topic, cut
and pasted them all, just to find out I couldn't post it (over the
limit).Let's not call names. Let's not constantly try to
dredge up the best old mistake you can find to drive a wedge of contention.
Let's try to be as constructive as possible (both sides).
Ultra Bob,you need to retake your civics course. or take a better one
since the one you recall appears to have taught you incorrectly.When
the constitution was ratified, it was to join the states, not the people. The
states were not really united as colonies; when the brits were driven from MA,
many there thought there part of the war was done. the articles of
confederation was a loose document that did not unite the then "free and
independent states" the term "Independent" applied to their
relationship with each other, not just England. The constitution was designed
to strengthen the central government, but not supplant the rights of the states,
as evidenced by the 10th amendment.Prior to the 17th amendment, the
states chose the senators, not the people - the house represented the people and
the senate the states.prior to the civil war, proper grammar was
"the United States ARE.." post civil war, it became, "the United
States IS.." denoting the difference between multiple and singular.Things may have evolved to your way of thought, but that is not what the
founders intended when they designed the Constitution.
Happy: I don't recall using the word "evil".The most
"honest patriots" were the ones who saw the sham of the Iraq war, but
they were classified as "nut cakes" by conservatives.
The dangers I see to our freedoms are rooted in a situation in which the
allegiance to the Constitution sworn to by congressmen and those in the other
departments of government, is sworn ignorantly or cynically.
Partisanship is also a major problem and so is the apparent fact that most of
"we the people" do not completely know or believe in constitutional
principles orselves. The people seem instinctively, however, to be much closer,
in many issues, to the spirit of constitutional principles than does
government, but they have not been vigilant in the people they elect and have
formerly been all to ready to trust their electees.
The Constitution I learned about in school is not the Constitution that the
conservatives have reinterpreted. I grew up thinking America was about people
and the Constitution was for the American people. I believed that states were
just subdivisions of America. I still do.The war against our
national government by the conservatives is not about liberty, justice or those
things mentioned in our founding documents. This is a war to control the
commercial activities of the American people. The smoke of persecution and
scandal are just that. By their own words and actions conservatives
do not want less control over the American people, they just want to change who
is doing the control.
You know Ernest, It has been said that Conservatives believe that Liberals are
"wrong", but Liberals believe that Conservatives are "evil". If
your side really believes that the Republicans are evil, then no wonder our
country is so divided politically. I mean, if I truly thought your side was
"evil", I wouldn't want to compromise with evil either. Think about it.
Boy... the left_leaning daily_bloggers seem full of self_righteousness this
morning.The one factual statement I read in all the postings so far
this morning was, "Self evaluation is hard". Hard-core
Republicans learned this during the Bush years. They defended him to the end
even when he made mistakes. And the left attacked him and investigated
absolutely EVERYTHING he did... whether good or bad. Now that he's gone,
some can see things more clearly now. But while he's in office...
it's hard not to just knee-jerk defend your guy. I know... I was there.Some people on the left are just learning this lesson (they are so used
to being on the attacking-the-President side, and they know well it works, so
they DON'T like seeing it done to their guy). But that knee-jerk reaction
so common to both sides makes it VERY hard to objectively react when you sense
your guy is being attacked.Our politics have become poisoned.
It's all about Revenge now days. Democrats attack Bush in Revenge for how
Clinton was treated. And Republicans are returning the favor now. It's
A truly "honest patriot" would admit that the Reagan, Bush and Bush
years and policies did a lot of harm to the United States. An "honest
patriot" can admit that both parties make mistakes and that dems look for
the greater good while repubs look at enriching themselves.
The funny thing is, does anyone think that David would be writing this had his
boy, Bro Romney won the White House? Doubt it. And had here been a major
terrorist attack recently, David would be the first in line to blame the
president for not doing more to prevent the attack.Move along.
Nothing to see here. David is merely playing political games (as he typically
does). More sour grapes from the far right which just seem to not get over the
fact that they have now lost 2 elections in a row. Yet... The refuse to look
inward and instead prefer to point the finger at the other side.
This all is very much like the 70's for Democrats. Self evaluation is
hard. The problem Republicans have today is the center right, and center left
are gone. All ready claimed by the Clintons and Obama. Far right and left is
all that is still available, and surprise, surprise, when you come full circle
on an issue such as privacy they meet and agree. They have to, nothing else is
available. It's one of the things that is so amusing about
this thread. When you are standing on the shore of the Atlantic Ocean, Ohio
seems pretty far West.
Where was this concern for the Constitution from 2000-2008? Could someone shed
some light on this mystery?
"And who is "questioning the legitimacy of our government"? No
one."Ask the birthers.
How far to the right are we when George W. Bush's former speechwriter, who
was also a senior policy advisor at the Heritage Foundation, is accused of
writing a "liberal attack on honest patriots"?We are through
the looking glass people.
No, defending the Constitution is not "recognizably conservative".
Conservatives are just as prone, just as likely, and just as historically guilty
of trampling the Constitution as liberals. It's not a matter of who is
trampling the Constitution, it's a matter of which parts they want to