Again John lumps illegal immigration and LEGAL immigration into the word
immigration (i.e., immigration is what made this country} Until he
differentiats the two meanings, his columns make no sense. Viva LEGAL
Immigration "reform". One big fight over a bill no one likes. Lets pick
up the low hanging fruit.The visa bill that Sen. Lee had and Sen.
Hatch put in the the larger immigration bill. The I-Squared Act. Lets pull it
back out and pass it separately.We need to fix legal immigration.
The best plan I have seen is to have a decent no quota but sponsored system of
immigration with the ability later to become a citizen, Rep. Dougall's bill
2011 HB 469 in 2011 has the first part of that.We need a simple
E-Verify law for companies 15 or larger to protect against ID theft.If the "big" US immigration bill passes it will just further divide
us, just like the attempt to combine immigration bills in to one bill, 2011 HB
116 did. You get a bill that no one really likes. We need more consensus
building and less compromise. If we focus on what we agree on, we can accomplish
the most good.Congress should run a bunch of small simple bills.
Then we actually may get something that will help business, families, and our
If we are going to have a line for people to come to this country, you
can't reward those that bypass the line. They need to be sent to the back
of the line. That doesn't mean you should stop treating them like people. I
am in favor of simplifying and fixing legal immigration.
@SLars:"You want to drop all charges on Americans who commit id theft
(felony), social security fraud(felony), and i-9 fraud (perjury-felony) plus all
misdemeanors? Or just drop charges on those here illegally?"You
make an interesting point, Lars. If those who committed felonies must pay to
the full extent of the law before they can get green cards, most will end up in
jail with heavy fines because they have committed crimes such as you list. I
can see forgiving illegals the crime of illegally crossing out borders. But
most, I would think, have committed other, more serious felonious crimes.It has been said that rounding up illegals and shipping them home would
be too costly. How about the cost to keep the 11 million in jail for say, ten
years for their crimes. That would cost way more than rounding them up.
Florez is making some fairly good points. But it is crucial that the borders
are tightly secured else we will have a repeat of 1986 which we don't want
or need. And we need to do something about the visa overstays to effectively
solve the illegal immigration problem. At least, that's my view of the
Pops, the laws are still there, and it's a small group of open border
people in high positions that are turning their heads. It's a
far cry from stealing bread. Do you want them excused from multiple felonies,
while the country still prosecutes Americans? Stealing identities
has the same punishment as social security fraud, they go hand in hand. And in
i-9 perjury A i-9 form must be signed before working. Our laws don't permit
felons to be citizens. And if you look past these crimes, but still want
Americans tried, your looking the other way. Mexico, the country
that contributes the most, has the 13th best economy in the world. There are
billions of people in this world more desperate. 4% of those
illegally work in Agriculture, who has unlimited visas. Your ignoring the
majority. Temp jobs end, and then it's time to move on. Amnesty
begats amnesty. Your way of thinking gives amnesty also to many employers who
commit felonies hiring people here illegally.
@SLars,It's a moral dilemma because we allowed them in and we
allowed them to stay, and now all of a sudden we're talking about uprooting
them and sending them back to the conditions they escaped, someplace some of
them have never lived. It's a moral dilemma because it places us in the
position of having to judge the likes of Jean Val Jean.I don't
want to drop charges on anyone. I think justice requires that the punishment fit
the crime. Those who steal identities with the intent to harm deserve a stiffer
punishment than those who fabricate a Social Security number because we require
it of them before we allow them to harvest produce in our fields.Yes, they broke the law, but let the punishment fit the crime. To those living
in desperate conditions, desperate measures are understandable.
popsYou want to drop all charges on Americans who commit id theft
(felony), social security fraud(felony), and i-9 fraud (perjury-felony) plus all
misdemeanors? Or just drop charges on those here illegally? A "a
moral dilemma" it's not. They came here the wrong way, or overstayed
their visa. And every day after that, they had unlawful status in this country.
They are human and subject to human law. Why are we even discussing
this, they broke the law, and should be punished according to our laws. Unlawful
entry; fine, up to 6 months in jail, deportation. Overstay a visa; deportation
plus prison terms for the felonies.
Mile Lee followed, by "...disingenuous...", is like night following
day...every day...after day...after day.
Enforce the laws currently on the books and we will have no need for all this
foolishness. The laws are there so why are they ignored? Who is making money off
of pushing this?
I agree with this piece for the most part. It doesn't take much courage to
say no to everything.To use the leak analogy, there is a foot of
water in the basement and it is a bit silly to refuse to do anything about it
until the hardware store has the right washer for the faucet. The border is a
small part of the problem. There are already 11 million or so people here
illegally. There are those who overstay visas or are smuggled through the
border. And the numbers of those coming through the border illegally are way
down compared to past years. The gang of 8, et al are trying to address the
issue and I applaud them. Doing nothing just maintains the status quo which
isn't good for anybody.If the Founders had been as Mike Lee
we'd never have a Constitution. The Founders had enough humility and good
will to overcome bitter differences. The immigration issue is small potatoes by
Trying to undo the consequences of having a leaky border is like trying to put
the smoke back in the firewood. Let's fix the border, but let's also
quit treating fellow human beings so poorly. The anger about the border should
be directed toward the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations which failed to
secure the border, not to the people who felt (rationally so) that it was in
their best interest to come here if only to work in our agricultural and
construction industries.A lot of the collateral damage, such as
obtaining or fabricating a Social Security number, is done innocently and
without criminal intent. I've worked in the fields and orchards alongside
these people, and I know for a fact they just want to do the work that is
available for them to do.Yes, there's currently some
exploitation on both sides. It could easily be cleared up by allowing them to
pay a fine and get on with their lives. It may upset some people's sense of
fairness, but it's usually those who don't understand that the biggest
unfairness of all is that they were born in the USA.
There seems to be no logic in Mr. Flores proposal. Think it through
this way. You've got a leaky faucet. So what do you do? Mr. Lee proposes
stopping the leak first. Mr. Florez thinks that's crazy.Another
scenario: fraud is being committed within your business due to a lack of
financial controls. Mr. Lee proposes putting controls in place first, then
addressing the fraud. Mr. Florez thinks that's nuts.The main
problem here is an unsecured border, which contributes towards two other
problems: luring people to cross the border, and the exploitation of those who
are here illegally for gain. The rest of this nation suffers the ill effects of
this situation, from high unemployment to the financial burden of social
services for illegal immigrants.Those calling the loudest for
compassion and keeping families together just happen to also be those who gain
by (exploit) this situation. Pathetic.Secure the border (leak)
first. Then, let's talk about resolution. Oh, and just so you
know, Mr. Florez, leadership is standing firm when the pressure on you is the
greatest. Mr. Lee is doing just that. Weakness is caving to pressure.
It's a federal misdemeanor to cross the border without inspection.
It's a civil infraction to overstay a visa. There is no ongoing status of
"illegal" for being in the US after having committed either.Many so-called conservatives have fallen into the trap of zero-sum thinking.
If that were true, we would all live in abject poverty. Fortunately, it
isn't true. Each human being brings the potential of creation, of adding to
the sum of life and society.Too many so-called conservatives fail to
recognize a moral dilemma when it smacks them in the face. When they prefer that
a lower law take precedence over a higher law, they fail the test of the
classical liberal, which is something to which we should all aspire.When you get to know some of the folks who have committed these atrocious
(not) and heinous (not) infractions and misdemeanors, you'll find
they're actually human beings, not monsters. I like the ones I've met.
I would like them to stay. They're not criminals.I say let them
pay a fine and let's move on.
Most of the reactions to this article return us to the oft-repeated fact that
neither government or the Deseret News are in tune, or in sympathy, with the
feelings and thoughts of the people. The people have more sense.
Mr. Florez astutely points out that Mike Lee is only tap-dancing around the
issue of immigration reform. He only pretends to want comprehensive reform by
offering to pick the low-hanging fruit, but I doubt he really wants anything but
more machine guns and barbed wire along our border.
Secure the border already and then we'll talk. Many jobs will be lost in
an already struggling economy if the libs and big business win this argument.
Illegals go the front of the line for free goodies while hard working Americans
are pushed to the back!!! Just like my family has been.
PopsIt's a misdearmeanor for crossing the border. Visa fraud for
overstaying a visa. ID theft, social security fraud, and i-9 form perjury. If we
enforced the laws, no one would qualify. Let those who broke the
laws of the land take responsibility for their actions. And let them be
responsibile in fixing them. Society should not have to take the burdern of
responsibility. This includes those brought here as children. They need to take
responsibility for their lives and setting things right.The same
goes for business, they also receive amnesty for the laws they break, and should
be forced to take responsibility for their actions. You can't
blame the actions of a few dishonest businessmen, church leaders, and
politicians on the country. Those that encouraged them (including LaRaza) need
to be held accountable. But we should not take their burden to make things right
also. Cincinnatus710 miles. From San Diego to the Rio Grande.
With over a million green cards a year, and 3.1 visas, it's not that hard
to come legally. Most visas are for 3 years, times the 3.1 milklion by three and
see just how flooded our labor markets are. Are laws are not
outdated (1996), our leaders are. We don't need more laws, we need
enforcement. American citizens were promised enforcement in the 1986
amnesty, none came. Americans were promised the end of illegal immigration and
enforcement in exchange for NAFTA, we received none. Either keep up
this charade or NAFTA. We can't allow 33 million here and NAFTA.
A few pointed responses to John Florez's column:"Some seem
willing to do anything to avoid making a decision on fixing immigration
laws."-- Actually, some seem willing to do ANYTHING so that they
can proudly proclaim that they did "something.""Among
the most ardent in trying to avoid making a decision appears to be junior Sen.
Mike Lee."-- No, actually, Sen. Lee has already made decisions
on this issue. So John Florez is essentially saying, "Sen. Lee is against
what I want, so that means he’s unwilling to make a decision."
Huh?"Instead of leading, [Sen. Lee] is ... taking a piecemeal
approach rather than a comprehensive approach."-- On an issue
with such broad implications, Sen. Lee’s piecemeal approach is much wiser.
Let’s just take it a step at a time. We’re only just beginning to
see the destructive effects of the "comprehensive" approach in
Obamacare, for example. Let’s slow down, and secure the border first."In America's moment of agony, she doesn't need
naysayers."-- But if it’s a bad policy, then we DO need
"naysayers." Congrats to Sen. Lee for his wisdom and courage.
The "simple act of securing our borders" is not so simple. If it were
SO simple, it seems that it would have already been done. The border is nearly
2,000 miles long. Do we build a 20 foot high wall, placing guard stations every
mile or so, watching for illegal crossers?Do we mandate that
businesses require a E-verify check on every employee? How do we guarantee it
works?Do we make the legal immigration system easier to understand,
cheaper to afford, and more hopeful than a years on end wait? Do we assist
Mexico in creating a better economy so that people will find better paying jobs
there, instead of here?What do we do with all the illegal immigrants
already here? What about children of illegal immigrants who were born here and
don't know any country other than this one?I want LEGAL
immigration as well, but, the "simple act of securing our borders"
isn't so simple. It's going to take a multi-pronged approach- not
just the politicians like Senator Lee simply saying, "Seal the border."
This isn't a one issue problem and anyone who says it is, is a liar.
I dream of the day when we can welcome many more qualified immigrants to our
great country, rather than trying to accommodate those who have come
illegally.We keep hearing the cry that our immigration system is
broken. The most broken part of it is the enforcement part of immigration. As
proof I offer 13 million illegal immigrants, many of whom have been in our
public schools for 12 years while their illegal status has gone completely
un-addressed. Anyone who claims they want to fix the immigration
system, but doesn't want to fix enforcement, either by fining employers who
hire illegal aliens, or doesn't want to deport those who are here
illegally, is just plain lying. They have a different agenda that fixing the
system and they don't want what is best for our country. We
must have full enforcement to fix the immigration problems we have. Then we can
have the immigrants our country needs, rather than the law-breaking ones we are
dealing with now.
The current proposal says we should grant citizenship to those who blatently
violated our laws. This I am totally against and so is Sen Lee. But Sen Lee
also ignores the children who were brought here illegally and who are
undocumented. Sen Lee's problem is he will only look at oneside of the
issue and not the whole cookie and give a solution.Our own nation is
also resposible because we allowed Illegal immigrants to come into our
communities and work for us and we need to fix that by providing either
legalization with a biometrics system that requires them to abide by the law or
face being deported. And we need to make that law enforceable. And we need to
fix our current immigration system so we can fix the problem otherwise
businesses and illegals will continue to violate the system.Sen Lee
needs to realize he needs to lead on the issue and make a proposal instead of
sitting back and saying no not yet or that doesn't work.
It is unfortunate that a lot of people view an illegal border crossing as the
one civil infraction for which there is no statute of limitations, nor any civil
penalty that will square the perpetrator with the law. If you park illegally and
pay a fine, you're then okay with the law again. Speed and get a ticket and
pay the fine, then you're okay with the law again. You don't have to
undo any benefit you might have gained by speeding or parking illegally. Just
pay the fine and you're good to go.A lot of people live here
who crossed the border illegally or who overstayed a visa, many of whom
contribute to society in meaningful ways. Levy a fine or something to square
them with the law, then let's move on to more important matters. Getting
these people square with the law is really needed so they can participate fully
in society like the rest of us.Our most valuable natural resource is
the human resource. Yes, the federal government messed up by not enforcing the
border. But let's make lemonade instead of sucking lemons.
For once I think I agree with "real maverick".We need
multi-faceted enforcement. Border security, local police (they help with DEA,
ATF, WHY can't they help with illegal trespassing?), and yes, bust a few
employers of illegal trespassers. Fine them and/or jail. Most of them KNOW
good and well they are hiring trespassers over legal citizens!E-verify."Real Maverick" should try calling Mr. Obama and
ask him why he doesn't do that right now. He currently has all those tools
at his disposal.It wouldn't relate to the fact that Obama is
HOPING for another 12 million people that might vote for him would it?
Two days ago the Senate voted down an amendment that would've secured the
border FIRST; before any amnesties.That vote SCREAMS the fact that
this Congress would like to continue with the mass lawbreaking and trespassing
that we've been victimized with.Last week 400 new U.S. legal
documented immigrants took the oath of citizenship to become citizens of our
great nation.Mr. Florez, please go tell THEM its not possible to use
our laws to become citizens!
So mike lee believes that securing the border needs to be done first? What does
that mean? Placing military bases every 5 miles along the border? Building a big
concrete Berlin Wall like structure? Or will Mike Lee actually secure the border
by taking away the incentive to come here illegally, punishing severely
employers who employ illegal immigrants?We can keep throwing
billions away in border security, folks will just come up with more creative
ways to get through. We can deport them all today and they will be back
tomorrow. The only real solution is to punish businesses which break our laws.
Once the incentive is gone to come here our illegal immigration problem will be
resolved.Of course, folks like Mike Lee will never do anything to
Mr. Florez it is no secret you are an open Border fan. Sen.Lee is exactly right.
In 1986 amnesty (and that is exactly what this is) was granted with promises of
Border Control. And that happened? Hah. That is what has led to our present
situation. So lets give the rewards out to aliens who have thumbed their noses
at our laws with no sure hard guarantees that we will not face this same thing
years from now. One of the most disingenous Senator (Schumer) has stated that it
will take years to secure the Borders. We are to believe that this
administration and future administration will follow through. If these illegals
were to never have voting rights this issue would be DOA in D.C. because that is
what it is all abouut. VOTES Have the fence up before you let the horse out of
Maybe Mr. Florez would have Mike Lee put his "finger in the dike" and
pretend that open borders have not allowed over thirteen million people to enter
this country illegally. Think how much misery could have been
avoided if people like Mike Lee had been listened to instead of people like John
Florez. The simple act of securing our borders would have made the
entire debate on "illegal immigrants" unnecessary. The simple act of
securing our borders would have made California's $30,000,000,000 deficit
nonexistant. The simple act of securing our borders would have eliminated the
100% increase in health insurance that each family pays to pay for illegals who
have no insurance.The simple act of securing our borders would have
eliminated the fear that many have of being deported or of being separated from
their families.Anyone who tells us that closing the borders should
come after "solving immigration" wants the heartache and the misery to
continue. They think that their support of lawlessness somehow makes that
Lee is not thinking linearly, as you say. He is thinking logically. The border
needs to be secured first. Otherwise the flow of illegals will continue, if not
increase. Plus, the government has shown itself willing to default on previous
laws that secure the border as with the 1986 illegal immigration law was
supposed to do as well as in recent years when Congress voted to build a fence,
but it never happened. Small wonder we know better than to trust government.
Mr. Florez is right that immigrants are not the problem. It is ILLEGAL
immigrants that must be stopped from entering this country ILLEGALLY. Either
they obey our laws or they do not come. Thank God that Senator Mike Lee
understands the problem. Too bad people like Mr. Flores try to confuse the issue
and make this about immigration when it is not. The issue is illegal