Good job!If boys shouldn't be in tents with girls, gays
shouldn't be in tents with straight boys No, not all gays would
become attackers. Neither would most boys attack girls in tents. It is not appropriate to force a straight boy to change clothes and
sleep in a tent with someone who is attracted to him That is not
fair to the straight boyI don't walk into a ladies locker room
and tell them "tough deal with it"Let's not tell the
straight boys the same thing
some often quoted liberal lines:"Quote: "Same-sex attraction
itself is not a sin".Agreed.Neither is heterosexual
attractionAnd yet we don't have boys and girls share tents and
change clothes together. "Quote: "Attraction to those of the
same sex...should not be viewed as a disease or illness."Agreed.Neither should heterosexual attraction.And yet
boys and girls don't share tents. "Members of the Church
who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to
enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood,
carrying out callings, and attending the temple"Yes, Mormons
allow that for heterosexuals too.And yet boys/girls don't share
tents"As for gay scout leaders -- straight women serve as
Scoutmasters in the BSA"AgreedAnd yet they
don't share tents with the boys.I'm frankly shocked
liberals have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept.
Chris BThat is the first comment I've read of yours that I have
agreed with you with! You are absolutely right, it is completely not appropriate
to share a tent with someone who is attracted to you. Oh but then when you make
the boy be in his own tent, then BSA will get slammed for discrimination.
Can't exactly solve the problem once you've allowed it to happen :/
Chris, I agree that the tent issue is real, and you make a good argument.
One correction though: Male leaders are not allowed to sleep in tents with the
boys at all unless it is a father and his son, at least that is how it was about
the time I got my eagle. Leaders sleep in their own tents and boys sleep in the
same tents as other boys.
@TallnSkinny43,I don't see how that is a correction. When did
I say something that disagreed with that?
I don't agree with Chris B much. But on this one he has hit the nail
square on the head. Couldn't agree more. I don't see how anyone can
argue with what he said, but I am sure someone will find a way.
How old are these kids. I doubt that any one has made up their mind.
Who would Jesus reject?
I sure wish the LDS Church would take a stronger stance. If the church thinks
this situation is going to get better, it isn't. It will only get worse.
We are letting impressionable youth and the the church as a whole dance with the
devil. Please don't justify it by saying it is already going on and occurs
elsewhere.I have yet to hear one comment addressing why the scouts
could not just produce a don't ask, don't tell policy. Keep your
personal business to yourself.
One problem before was if a scout leader THOUGHT a kid was gay for whatever
reason, he had some real leverage. Unfortunately if your not especially tough or
athletic people sometimes create false labels. I'm not entirely disagreeing
with Chris B., I think it's a point well made, but when boys and girls
share a tent there's a real likelihood of MUTUAL attraction that's
less likely to occur in a same gender environment.
Tendencies vs temptations...edited conference talks...tolerance trap...Family
Proclamation is not a revelation...a website...changes in the Honor
Code...Mormons Building Bridges...We are nibbling at the edges here. The
Saints need some direction, not press releases.How long halt ye between
reSay No to BOThe Prophet Joseph Smith taught "we teach them
correct principles and let them govern themselves". To your point regarding
gay scouts ...there are already gay church members and I suspect as the Church
grows beyond 20 million in a few years you are going to see all sorts of people
coming to sacrament meeting in all parts of the globe. A few years ago no one
ever considered a gay Mormon but now we have two members of the Quorum of the 12
giving talks regarding gay members and telling them that they are welcome and
not excluded in any way so long as they keep the law of chastity. There are some
church members who resist change...I was on an LDS mission with a companion from
the south who just couldn't get past blacks receiving the priesthood - he
liked it the other way. As the church grows to be a now global church you are
going to see converts who come from all walks of life and some pretty liberal
pasts and I suspect many - especially Utah Mormons - are going to swallow hard
to accept them. Too bad. The Savior loves ALL.
I think Chris B would have us create separate tents, separate
bathrooms/latrines, separate cafeterias, separate troops, etc. - separate but
equal, right!The number of gay scouts are few, and the number of
problems that will arise that fit Chris B's scenarios are the exception.So, as one beloved LDS leader once stated, "Dear sister, we’d
like not to take care of the exception first. We will take care of the rule
first, and then we will see to the exceptions.... When you state a rule and
include the exception in the same sentence, the exception is accepted
first."The rule adopted by the BSA and supported by the Church,
that is inclusive of all young men, regardless of orientation, is a good, fair
rule. Any exceptions and accommodations should be handled appropriately and
discretely by thoughtful leaders.
I have worked with and known many gays as they are referred to, because of my
past job, I never met one who said I chose this lifestyle
It doesn't matter. They're just a church.
It's sad that people actually think that gays weren't in the Boy
I officially oppose the Southern Baptists intolerance towards other religions
and towards those of different viewpoints.
Chris B, Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent might
not be attracted at all to the straight boy? Never mind considering the opposite
as within the realm of nature.
EDM,Isn't better to be safe than sorry..?Go Big
Blue,Is your intolerance of people being intolerant justified for
some reason, or are you being sarcastic?Chris B,Is your
point that gay leaders should be ok and gay youth should not be?
@Chris B --The Girl Scouts have accepted lesbian scouts for years.
The world has not come to an end.The same will happen in the Boy
Scouts. The world will not come to an end.Straight women already
serve as Scoutmasters for boy scouts.Straight men already serve as leaders
for girl scouts.Lesbian women already serve as leaders for girl scouts.None of these established facts have caused the sky to fall.I said in another thread: "As for gay scout leaders -- straight women
serve as Scoutmasters in the BSA"You replied here: "--
Agreed -- And yet they don't share tents with the boys."NO
leaders share tents with boys in the BSA -- regardless of gender or
orientation.NO leaders should be alone with scouts -- regardless of
gender or orientation. As we already know, the real molesters are
going to be hiding under a camouflage of apparent normalcy. The scouts and
leaders who are honest about being gay are not the danger that we need to worry
EDM,"Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent
might not be attracted at all to the straight boy"Yes.Would you concede as possible that a straight male is not attracted to every
female in the world?And yet you likely support that straight male
not taking the neighbor girls camping, or walking into a ladies locker room,
even if he is not attracted to the women inside?I've been over
this time after time. Quite simple really.
EDM,Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent might
be very attracted to the straight boy?If you are honest, I have a
follow up question.What is your proposal to the feelings of the
straight boy if this makes him feel uncomfortable(similar discomfort as if
coming from a female in a tent with a boy who is attracted to her)?"Tough luck kid, deal with it" ?Those who argue with me
refuse to acknowledge the very real feelings of the straight boy, who
justifiably might not want to change his clothes around someone attracted to
him, just as a young lady would not want to around a young man attracted to her.
@Cris B. --"And yet you likely support that straight male not
taking the neighbor girls camping"Once again -- NO leader should
ever take scouts camping alone, regardless of gender or orientation.Quite simple, really.
brownpaper,No one ever said a leader should take a scout camping.Not sure what you're arguing.You're trying to
argue a simple point, but no has has ever disagreed with the point you're
making.I don't know how to make this more simple for you. I
would if I could.Boys don't go camping with girls. We
don't tell the girls "tough just deal with it" and force them to
change clothes and sleep with boysGay boys shouldn't be camping
straight boys.We OWE that same RESPECT to the straight boys.This is about scout safety and respect
@Chris B --"No one ever said a leader should take a scout
camping."Great! Then you can stop all that fear-mongering
nonsense you've been posting about straight men taking little girls out
into the woods. You obviously realize that your scare tactics are completely
irrelevant to the actual situation at hand.Glad to hear it! :-)"Boys don't go camping with girls. "Lesbian
girl scouts go camping with straight girl scouts. They have done so for
years.Where's the difference?"Gay boys
shouldn't be camping straight boys."Why not? Lesbian girl scouts have been camping with straight girl scouts for years.Are girl scouts somehow tougher than boy scouts? Are boy scouts really
such delicate flowers?
The LDS Church allows gay members, The LDS Church allows gay Boy
Scouts.So - You can either follow the Prophet, or join
the Baptists.The End
@ LDS LiberalWhen did the prophet come out and say being gay is OK?
To allow them participation, sure, I guess. I havent heard it directly from
President Monson, so if it comes through the spokesman of the church that makes
it a following the prophet or not statement I guess?To support an
individual is one thing, to agree with an individual who made a choice to do
what in my opinion is wrong is another.The church allows gay
members, they allow gay scouts, do they support their beliefs or actions?If my kid chooses not to share a tent with a gay scout because he does
not feel comfortable with that. I guess according to your post he doesnt follow
the prophet? It is thoughts like this that what gives the church and its members
a bad name. Your handle is LDS Liberal, but what about the non-liberal LDS
members, do they not follow the prophet also because they do not agree with your
liberal standards. I just dont get it.
@Utahbruin - even if "Lds" liberal is lds, which I don't believe,
he uses certain things church leaders have said as justification of things they
have not said. I think he added the LDS part to his handle to try and seem as
if his posts have more power/reason. Either way, he suggests that Church
leaders believe things they certainly do not believe. By the brethren saying
"same sex attraction is not a sin" is suddenly equal to "homosexual
relationships" are OK and not fought against.Clearly the
brethren have not said that, nor will they. And I stand with the brethren.
re:LDS LiberalGood point and well said.
@patriot"The Savior loves ALL."True but not the
sin"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and
sin no more."
@UtahBruin;You should think for yourself regardless what your
leaders say.@zoar;Being gay and in a same-sex
relationship isn't a "sin". Being gay in a heterosexual
relationship would be a sin, as would being heterosexual in a same-sex
relationship.Sin is relative anyway. I don't believe in
"sin" per se, but if I did, I'd certainly believe that bigotry is a
I think the reality is "gay" or not, most boy scouts on camping trips
only share tents with those they are comfortable with. When I was a scout, I
never shared a tent. That was my preference due to the fact that a week up in
the woods with no showering made for some smelly scouts. Only once did a leader
insist that I would "have to" share a tent. I chose not to go on the
trip, rather than share. While only a "boy", I was mature enough to
decide what I wanted to do or not do, and was generally supported by my scout
leaders. I think that is how most scouts deal with it, regardless of this
@zoar --"True but not the sin"It's not your
job to judge. That's God's job.Many religious people --
Christian, Jew, and others -- have no problem reconciling the teachings of the
Bible with the idea of equal citizenship for gay people.---------"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you
will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1)"And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of
Man." John 5:27"If anyone hears my words but does not keep
them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to
save the world." John 12:47"Anyone who speaks against a
brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you
judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it." James
4:11"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able
to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?"
@Girlse StateMidvale, UT@Utahbruin - even if "Lds"
liberal is lds, which I don't believe, he uses certain things church
leaders have said as justification of things they have not said. I think he
added the LDS part to his handle to try and seem as if his posts have more
power/reason. By the brethren saying "same sex attraction is not a sin"
is suddenly equal to "homosexual relationships" are OK and not fought
against.Clearly the brethren have not said that, nor will they. And
I stand with the brethren.2:29 p.m. June 13, 2013========= ..."The Church distinguishes between same-sex attraction and
behavior. While maintaining that feelings and inclinations toward the same sex
are not inherently sinful, engaging in homosexual behavior is in conflict with
the “doctrinal principle"..."I never said anything of
the sort - you have a reading comprehension issue.I said, and I
quote:"The LDS Church allows gay members, The LDS Church allows
gay Boy Scouts."The Church even allows members who are
alcoholics [since once you are one, you never get over it.]Not
allowing for what you are, regardless for what you do --- is defined as bigotry.
Haters gonna hate.May the Baptists reap what they sew.