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Comments about ‘Pope confirms 'gay lobby' at work at Vatican’

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Published: Wednesday, June 12 2013 10:24 a.m. MDT

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Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

Black Mail and any other form of extorsion is always wrong! If that were the case in the Vatican and Francis was correct, then we should all condemn that 'plot'.

On the other hand, I think is illuminating that homosexuality has such a force in the Vatican.

To those who still claim homosexuality is a choice, I ask... Why so many holy men, who devote their lives to God , also choose to be homosexual?

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

Baccus,

I think there are more of us that think homosexual actions are wrong and fewer who think it is 100% a choice.

I think choice plays into it. Many studies show certain people based on DNA have a higher likelihood to become alcoholics than others.

But every person has control over their actions as to whether they become full alcoholics/practicing homosexuals.

Good job Pope Francis!

Keep up the good work sir!

I support you and know you are God's leader here on earth!

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

Chris B;

"I think there are more of us that think homosexual actions are wrong and fewer who think it is 100% a choice. "

So? You're welcome to think whatever you want, you're not welcome to your own facts though. The world still isnt' flat though most believed it to be. The Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth as most thought it did. And, finally, being gay isn't something one chooses (why don't you try it, just for a day to find out for certain).

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

@Ranch,

Choosing to have any sort of homosexual relationship is 100% a choice.

And its 100% wrong.

I'm not faulting anyone for a way they were born.

I'm simply pointing out there are right and wrong choices.

plainbrownwrapper
Nashville, TN

@Chris B --

"And its 100% wrong."

According to you.

Many Christians, many Jews, and many people of other faiths disagree with you.

You don't get to win just because you say so.

---------

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

"The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

Romans 13: 8-10

----------

That doesn't say "condemn people you don't like." It doesn't say "stick your nose into other people's bedrooms." It doesn't say "force other people to live by your own personal standards."

It says LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

Chris B.

With all due respect, I'm sorry for you.

I am in a homosexual relationship for many years. I am a happy man with a happy family. I'm very proud of my heterosexual daughter and very happy she is going to college. I'm looking forward to the day she gets married and have children and my partner (hopefully my husband by then) and I will have grandchildren.

I feel very close to my God. My relatives, friends and co-workers consider us positive contributing members of society. Actually, my homosexuality has nothing to do with my participation in society. On the contrary, as a citizen deprived of my right to marry the person I love, I received less benefit than perhaps you, if you are married.

Can you please tell me how and why my homosexuality is wrong? By the way, both parents of my daughter are heterosexuals who decided to just abandon her without even the consideration of giving her for adoption.

Are you saying that adopting her, loving and raising her was wrong because we are homosexuals?

If you are not saying that, please tell me, what are you saying?

Chris B
Salt Lake City, UT

baccus,

"Are you saying that adopting her, loving and raising her was wrong because we are homosexuals?"

That is a poor and misleading attempt to put words in my mouth.

I never said anything close to that.

Clearly you choose not to read and respond to what I have written, preferring to completely misrepresent what I have said.

I'm happy to have discussions with people, if they can address what is actually said.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

RanchHand,
Chris B did not make up his own facts, as you accused him of doing.

plainbrownwrapper,
I see you choose to ignore the numerous biblical references that condemn homosexuality. I will remind you of the story of the woman taken in adultry, whom Christ loved. After her accusers left, condemned in their own hearts, He told the women to ge her way and sin no more. Despite His love for her, he did NOT condone her sin.

plainbrownwrapper
Nashville, TN

@lost in DC --

"I see you choose to ignore the numerous biblical references that condemn homosexuality. "

Nope, as you know we have discussed the Bible at infinitum in various other threads.

Basically, they boil down to this:

1. Old Testament laws were replaced by the New Covenant.
2. Jesus himself never said a word against homosexuality.
3. Homosexuality is never mentioned in the Gospels, except for one passage in which Jesus acknowledges -- WITHOUT condemnation -- that some men are "born eunuchs" (see other threads for why "eunuch" can include homosexuals in ancient texts) and that such men should not marry women.
4. Paul didn't like homosexuals. Paul also supported slavery, believed that women were inferior to men, and told everyone that nobody should ever get divorced. He was a mortal, fallible man.
5. I'll repeat: many religious people -- including Christians, Jews, and members of other faiths -- support gay rights, including gay marriage. They have no trouble reconciling the text of the Bible with recognizing the full citizenship of gay people.

"He told the women to ge her way and sin no more."

Right. Judgment is GOD's job -- not yours.

YOUR job is to love your neighbor.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

brownpaperwrapper,
no, we have not discussed the bible ad infinitum in other threads; I do not recongize your pseudonym.

please tell me where I was judging anyone. Typical leftist response - distort what someone else said.

"I see you choose to ignore the numerous biblical references that condemn homosexuality."

Nope, no judgment of anyone there, just an observation of what you chose to ignore from the bible.

"I will remind you of the story of the woman taken in adultry, whom Christ loved. After her accusers left, condemned in their own hearts, He told the women to ge her way and sin no more. Despite His love for her, he did NOT condone her sin."

Nope, no judgement of anyone there, either, just reciting a biblcal story.

old testament laws may have been replaced, and the mortal consequences of sin changed, but sin remains sin. Homosexuality is still, in biblical definitions as well as scriptures recognized by other faiths and major religions, sin.

No amount of justification on your part will change that.

plainbrownwrapper
Nashville, TN

@lost in DC --

"no, we have not discussed the bible ad infinitum"

My apologies for being unclear. "We" (general "we" = the participants in the DN comment threads, of whom I am one -- not specific "you and I") have discussed the Bible ad infinitum in other threads.

"please tell me where I was judging anyone."

Straw man. I never accused you of making a judgment. Rather, I said that judging is not your job.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:1-2)

"Typical leftist response" -- LOL! Easy example of a judgment right there. Thanks for providing it. ;-)

"sin remains sin."

The interpretations of "sin" are as varied as the religious people who try to understand them.

Is it still a sin to eat shellfish? Is it still a sin to divorce your wife?

Many religious people -- Christian, Jew, and other -- have no trouble reconciling their deeply-held religious beliefs with equal rights for gay citizens. You don't have a hegemony on belief, no matter how much you might like to.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

plainbrownwrapper

you never accused me of judging?

Really?

please explain

"Right. Judgment is GOD's job -- not yours.

YOUR job is to love your neighbor."

That's pretty clear, when you tell me "NOT YOURS", that you are accusing me of judging someone.

plainbrownwrapper
Nashville, TN

@lost in DC --

"you never accused me of judging? Really?"

Yes, really.

"please explain"

Sure.

Compare: It is not your job to eat grass. It is a cow's job to eat grass, not yours.

Do you believe that I am now accusing you of eating grass?

Very simple, really.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

plainbrown
quite the strecth. if that's the best you can do, I am really sorry for you. it diminishes any other argument you may have tried to make.

2plainbrownwrappers
Nashville, TN

@lost in DC --

"lquite the strecth. if that's the best you can do, I am really sorry for you."

LOL!

Be sorry all you like. It's still true. ;-)

I found some other great quotes on judging, btw. I think the message is pretty clear throughout all of them.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37

"And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." John 5:27

"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

"Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it." James 4:11

"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?" James 4:12

Tooele Mom
Tooele, UT

@2plainbrownwrappers: Quick sidebar- Nothing has actually replaced all the laws of the Old Testament. Christ's physical sacrifice ended the sacrifice of animals, and there are other things that were fulfilled by His coming to Earth, His atonement and crucifixion, but many OT laws remain in place to this day. The Ten Commandments are one example. If we believed it had been replaced, Christians wouldn't still use the Old Testament.

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