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Published: Thursday, May 30 2013 1:25 p.m. MDT

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Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Dear parents with young children; what you do matters everywhere. And if they behave in church like they do in other spaces public and private, It's a good reason not to go to church. I know, that's a broad generalisation, but wow some of the stuff you see kids up to when they're out around other people. Makes you wonder.

Ironhide
Salt Lake City, UT

Amen to the article.

If only those parents who refuse to being their children to church because of the struggle would realize they aren't making it easier on themselves when at 6yrs and 8yrs the kids still don't know how to behave, since they weren't taught how early on. The solution of one parent staying home with the kids while the other attends is thoughtful but truly a cop out. It's essentially an excuse for the parents to not keep fighting the often literal fight. Patience and fortitude will never come from emotional breakdowns and concession. You can do it, just please don't give in to giving in.

Terrie Bittner
Warminster, PA

I'm glad parents bring their children to church even when they aren't perfectly behaved. I am not worried when a toddler slips away and bangs on the piano before getting caught or races around the chapel with a parent in chase. They can't learn if they aren't there.

Besides, when the service ends, they come to me in the children's classes. If they didn't come, I'd have to go to boring adult classes where they never teach with flannel boards and puppets. I, a grandmother who has to borrow children, look forward all week to teaching my little class of wiggly, giggly preschoolers and I depend on you to bring them to me.

When my children were small, I figured I might be spending half my time in the foyer, but I was coming--and bringing the children--to show God I cared enough to have us in the right place on Sunday morning.

Grundle
West Jordan, UT

Amen

AnonSMF
Sacramento, CA

I loved this article. And I can say from personal experience that I was not always the best model of behavior in church when I was quite small. But I did absorb things and learned. 40+ years later, I remember some of those early experiences in church. The love and kindness of teachers who had infinite patience, exposure to hymns and scriptures which have become ever more meaningful as I've gotten older. Keep bringing your young children to church. It will make a huge difference in their lives in years to come.

G L W8
SPRINGVILLE, UT

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

bergermough
Sheffield, 00

this might not be a popular view, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to raise children in any religion. They should be raised in a rational, logical environment. If you can't back up claims of a deity with reputable, replicable scientific evidence, you shouldn't make them to children. When they're adults, they can then make their own choices. Please don't take offence, none's intended.

Samuel B Martineau
Bountiful, UT

To Bergermough

No offense taken, but I respectfully disagree. If we could only teach children things that we can prove logically, imagine the world we would live in. Can you logically prove that it is wrong to kill? No, because it always comes down to a base value of life. We believe that life is valuable even though we cannot gather data to prove that fact. The same is true with any moral code. Moral codes can't be proven logically, they are a matter of conscience. And thank goodness they are because they are also the basis of our society.

The same is true of religion. You cannot prove that God exists, but I know that He does exist in the same way that I know life is valuable or that kindness is good. And religion too serves as a basis for our society. It provides moral teachings and organization for good works. I am grateful we still live in a largely religious society.

bergermough
Sheffield, 00

so try as you might, you can't come up with any logical argument to demonstrate why we shouldn't kill each other?

?
SLC, UT

Dear Bergermouh,

Are you saying those believe in religion and God are not rational or logical? If so, why? What make a person more rational or logical in their thinking just because they don't believe in religion or God over another person who does?

There are many people with personal experiences that have given, at least to them, sufficient reason to believe though it might not be enough to convince others.

In the end, it may be just as fundamentally wrong to deny children the opportunity to know about religion and God. Would you deny children any other kind of education or knowledge or just a knowledge of and belief in religion or God? As happens with many children raised in any home, as children grow older they still are able to choose whether or not to beleive the things their parents and society has taught them. Some believe while others choose a different path.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Recently President Monson told on himself - how he started a fire outside when he was 8 that almost got out of control. Another time he related how he made his Primary President cry because of his behavior.

I think he turned out alright. And maybe that is hope for us all as we struggle with our kids.

God Bless all of you who do struggle. You are by far the majority.

bergermough
Sheffield, 00

Thanks. By way of response to '?' I feel compelled to say that theism is irrational, yes, inasmuch as it is a belief in something that has no evidence base testable to scientific standards. Unless you know different? Show me the relevant article in a scientific journal and I'll examine it with impartiality & care. Atheism by contrast holds that `that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.'

I don't object to kids being taught generally about the existence of different belief systems - Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc, but it concerns me that some children are taught that any one of them is uniquely real and right.

J.D.
Aurora, CO

I love it when parents whisper testimonies in their ear. I heard from a grown who said he was a kid he thought "shadow of a doubt" was all one word. He had no idea what it meant though. LOL!!

Virgil
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

bergermough:

Just a thought. Science is not the only branch of human knowledge. For example, there is no way of scientifically proving that Julius Cesar existed. For that, one must turn to Historical proof, which is an entirely different thing altogether.

I for one am very comfortable asserting that Cesar actually existed.

?
SLC, UT

Thank you, Bergermough,

Don't know if this helps any or if it is of any interest to you, but there is an International Society for Science and Religion, UK. They may or may not have what you seek. Also, an interesting book I've read is "The God Who Weeps" by Terryl and Fiona Givens. Another that Terryl Givens has written, I have not read but sounds interesting is "When Souls Had Wings."

For many who do believe in religion and God there are personal experiences. For many this has included study, thought (reason and logic might fit in here somewhere), prayer, faith, and time. Everyone's life experiences are personal. Even if people experience things at the same time, it seems it is still possible for both to come away with a different take on the experience. How that all plays out in the scientific realm, I don't know.

Best wishes.

?
SLC, UT

Dear Bergermough,

An interesting thought from “Compatibility of Science and Religion” Science, Evolution, and Creationism, National Academy of Sciences and Institute of Medicine. © 2008 National Academy of Sciences

“Science and religion are based on different aspects of human experience. In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist.”

What do you think?

bergermough
Sheffield, 00

food for thought, all. Thank you

Big 'D'
San Mateo, CA

Dear bergermough,

As a trained, practicing scientist, I feel compelled to broaden what you wrote. If "theism is irrational," so must be atheism. Laboratory science has no approach to the question of whether deity exists. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," then atheism must be dismissed as readily as theism.

Any scientist professing an opinion on this subject, if the opinion is based on "reputable, replicable [peer-reviewable, publishable] scientific evidence", can only profess agnosticism. Anything beyond that is personal belief formed by subjective experience, the interpretation of which is possibly biased by personal ideology.

As for me, my own five senses have experienced enough to know that God is a real and loving being. (Well, 3 of 5 anyway; no olfactory or gustatory experience yet informs my opinion on the divine.) To me, these experiences are as material as any biochemical data that I produce in the laboratory. I cannot deny them. Nor can I give them to you.

But if you desire to know for yourself, "Ask, and it shall be given you. Seek, and ye shall find." This I know.

Joggle
Somewhere In, HI

Introducing religion at an early impressionable age forces children to make one of the most important/complicated decisions of their lives before the age of critical thinking, logic, reason and the ability to read/understand the scriptures being used to indoctrinate them. It takes away their free-will to choose their own path. Faith can also be used to create an immunity to evidence and reason. Once the seeds of religion are planted and nourished with weekly doses of dogma, the child would grow into an adult being unable to rid themselves of a belief system planted in their innocent unsuspecting, unquestioning brains. They have been coerced via their emotions, making what they think they experience in regards to "God", subjectively true, and when contrary evidence presents itself, there seems to be a reflex fear/anger emotion that keeps them from researching with a critical mind. People acquire a religion before critical thinking skills are developed and that religion is promoted without most people noticing. That's really not a very good reason to believe that a religion is true. Real experiences that have a profound impact on a person can have completely natural source and does not equal knowing.

Civil
Salt Lake City, UT

As a parent I ask, please be considerate.

It IS hard to sit with children in meetings. So end the meeting when it is supposed to end, not after.

In fact, if the speakers finish early, Bishop or Stake President, do not be compelled to fill in the "extra" time. The fact that you are ordained doesn't make you wiser than those who spoke, nor essential to the Spirit communicating God's message to the congregation. Some times a little is enough, and a lot is too much.

Dear sincere person giving the prayer. It is a PRAYER, not a TALK. If you were supposed to give a talk, you'd have been asked. Open a meeting in < two minutes, close it in < 30 seconds. Trust the Spirit and the congregation. We don't need a recap.

Let out early once in awhile. On purpose. Don't poor the glass so full. It just spills over and makes us wet.

Chorister, we don't HAVE to sing all 19 verses. Sometimes ONE VERSE WILL DO.

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