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Holmoe shares insight on future of Y athletics

Published: Wednesday, May 29 2013 9:25 p.m. MDT

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U 90
Corona, CA

Truecoug,

If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about them outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has been ignored by every major football league?

If you don't believe that Utah has attracted more national attention over the last 10 years than BYU you have been living in a bubble called happy valley.

Leave it to someone from Provo to be the authority on the pulse of the Utes outside of Utah.

Mt Rushmore
Arlington, VA

U90

"If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about them outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has been ignored by every major football league?"

We all know the reason, so why do arrogant Utah fans keep pretending.

It wasn't the "exceptional" quality of Utah's athletics that got the Utes into the PAC 12 - it was their better "cultural" fit (read: secular, non-religious) and greater quantity of research, and had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of Utah athletics.

There are lots of "small time" football programs in "big time" conferences, Utah is just one of the latest - see Rutgers, Washington State, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Iowa State, Duke, to name but a few.

After two years in the PAC, the Utes are 7-11 in conference. Utah fans claim this is an anomaly, only a period of adjustment, before Utah gets used to playing in a big boy conference.

The truth is, Utah will NEVER out recruit USC, UCLA, Stanford, ASU or Oregon and will always be nothing more than an also ran, just like Arizona has been in football during most of its tenure in the PAC.

BYU Joe
MISSION VIEJO, CA

I do appreciate a little smack talk between the fans but I always find it lame for some to claim they do not care about the BYU v. Utah game. We all care. That's why we come to the boards and comment. I do not see the usual suspect all over the Boulder CO papers web talking about the "Big Game" between the Buffs and the Utes.

We all love the game and all love to live off the win for the next year.

After all its June and we are all already concerned about the game and like it or not when its gone for two years all we can do then is compare schedules and say a lot of "what if's."

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug1 (first post)
"Yes, cost of tuition is part of it as well, but it's not a 'major' part of the ranking, as you stated." Fine, we agree that cost is a factor. Good starting point.

"Also, BYU is at #68 in the Best National Universities category, Utah at #125. Here is what the USNWR site says about what qualifies an institution as a National university: "Schools in the National Universities category offer a full range of undergraduate majors, plus master's and Ph.D. programs. These colleges also are committed to producing groundbreaking research."

This is where your logic is flawed. You believe this broad statement applies equally to every school in the ranking don't you. It doesn't. I hope you appreciate the work I put into the following posts on your behalf...

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug1 (2nd post)

The following is a list of ranked Grad Programs. Order of data - Field of study, Utah rank, BYU rank, and USU rank: From the USNWR site itself…

•Audiology, 42, NA, 45
•Biological Engineering NA, NA, 28
•Biological Sciences 56, 144, 28
•Business 61, 30 ( byu Acctg #7), USU Rank Not Avail
•Chemical Eng 60, 81, NA
•Chemistry 36, 107, 94
•Civil Eng 66, 90, 80
•Clinical Psychology 47, 114, NA
•Computer Eng 38, 62 NA
•Computer Science 39, 91, NA
•Education 65, 81, 24
•Electrical Eng 44, 113, 113
•Fine Arts 93, 153, NA
•Law 41, 44 NA
•Math 30, NA, 104
•Mechanical Eng 57, 68, 119
•Nursing 36, 99, NA
•Physics 63, 102, 133
•Psychology 67, 177, 177
•Public Affairs 73, 59, NA
•Social Work 52, 104, NA
•Speech Pathology 32, 62, 45

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug1 (3rd post)

Fields of study at Utah not BYU or USU

Biomedical Eng 27
Earth Sciences 45
Material Eng 55
Medical School – Primary Care 29
Medical School Research 48
Number Theory 16
Nursing Mid-Wife 8
Occupational Therapy 47
Pharmacy 10
Physical Therapy 14
Physician Assistant 2

I am not spinning anything, truecoug1. If you were one of the Presidents and Chancellors of the Pac-10 faced with extending an invitation to an institution to join your elite conference and academics was an absolute criteria that had to be met, who would you choose? If research was a criterion that absolutely had to be met, would you look for a tier 1 research institution? Of course you would.

It's sad that byu fans refer to the leaders of the Pac-12 as “bigots” simply because byu fans didn’t get what they wanted. The reasons for the actions taken by the conference were clear and the standards were high. The University of Utah met those criteria. byu fans need to just accept that.

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

Mt Rushmore
"It wasn't the "exceptional" quality of Utah's athletics that got the Utes into the PAC 12 - it was their better "cultural" fit (read: secular, non-religious) and greater quantity of research, and had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of Utah athletics."

Well, it certainly was about more than just sports, sports, and sports that's is an absolute fact! LOL!

It was about meeting high standards...see my responses to truecoug1.

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@MyPerspective

I'm not arguing that Utah has great graduate programs. I think Utah is a great school. I'm simply refuting your statement that the cost of tuition was the biggest reason why BYU was ranked ahead of Utah.

It wasn't. The criteria for choosing the schools was laid out clearly by the USNWR and graduate programs was one of them. If these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are, then the USNWR would have placed Utah higher on the list.

But they didn't. BYU has fabulous undergraduate programs, tremendous faculty, higher academic standards than Utah (the D News recently posted an article on how the incoming GPA for students at Utah increased upon entering the PAC 12 to a 2.6 and an 18 on the ACT...BYU requires a 3.0 GPA and 23), and BYU does plenty of research.

Academics is not the reason why Utah got into the PAC 12 and BYU didn't, much as Ute fans would like to think. I've already detailed below how religion was the biggest key for BYU not getting an invite.

But I think Utah is a great fit for the PAC and I'm happy for them.

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@U90 "If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about them outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has been ignored by every major football league?"

Simple. Utah was the backup plan for the PAC 10 when Texas and the other Big XII schools decided to remain in the Big XII and the PAC was stuck at 11. They needed 12 to fill out their conference and allow them to have a conference championship game and Utah was the best cultural and geographical fit.

But even the PAC think you're small time. Here's a segment from an article by Dennis Dodds about Utah and Colorado being expansion candidates to the PAC 10: "Utah and Colorado are the most widely mentioned Pac-10 additions but there is doubt whether the schools could add enough revenue to make expansion worthwhile. "The conventional wisdom is Utah and Colorado doesn't get you enough eyeballs," one Pac-10 AD said referring to a potential television audience."

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@U90 continued

Also, in his latest college football magazine, Phil Steele left out Utah as being one of BYU's BCS opponents for the 2013 season, even though U are in the PAC 12 (whether he did it intentionally or unintentionally, I still find that rather humorous).

So it's not just me who thinks Utah is a small-time school.

Also, BYU wasn't "ignored by 'major' conferences." Both the Big XII and Big East approached them during expansion times. Talks fell apart with the Big XII, and BYU turned down an invite to the Big East.

So I'm sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but Utah is as relevant as Washington St now. Which is to say, not at all.

So why don't U go support your team on their boards? They need all the help they can get.

Go Cougars!

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@MyPerspective

One more thing. If academics were such a high priority for the PAC 10 chancellors and presidents, then why on earth were they considering inviting Oklahoma St during the original expansion talks in 2010?

That kind of blows the "Academics" argument out the window.

Well, that, and the fact that BYU is still an academically ranked higher national university than Oregon, Utah, WSU, and Arizona.

Look, I'm not trying to take anything away from Utah. I think they're a fine academic institution, and there's no way BYU would have been a good fit in the PAC. The PAC made the right choice, and I'm happy for the Utes.

But please don't try to build up Utah as something they're not, or to diminish BYU as an academic institution. Academics are not what set Utah apart from BYU for the PAC 12.

The fact that did was that BYU is a church-school and Utah is not.

Refer to my below quotes from national columnists for more evidence on that subject.

Go Cougars! And (even though I enjoy trash-talking with Ute fans) best of luck to Utah!

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug1 (
A simple thank you would have sufficed.

"If these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are, then the USNWR would have placed Utah higher on the list." What? Maybe you didn't get the memo...Utah got the invite. LOL!

"BYU has fabulous undergraduate programs, tremendous faculty, higher academic standards than Utah (the D News recently posted an article on how the incoming GPA for students at Utah increased upon entering the PAC 12 to a 2.6 and an 18 on the ACT...BYU requires a 3.0 GPA and 23)" Entrance standards are easy to change. Watch what happens at Utah over the next five years.

"...and BYU does plenty of research." byu, like every school in the country does research. However, byu is NOT a tier 1 research institution. Never has been and never will be. There are 52 in the country and byu is NOT numbered among them. Do you even understand what that is? Hint: it has nothing to do with sports. Have you been on the UofU campus recently? Ever? Take a tour, the Pac-10 found exactly what they were looking for in a research institution.

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug1 (2)
"Academics is not the reason why Utah got into the PAC 12 and BYU didn't, much as Ute fans would like to think." Absolutely correct. Research and was also key and of course athletics.

"I've already detailed below how religion was the biggest key for BYU not getting an invite." You are the one who quoted a couple of sports writers? Enough said on that topic.

"But I think Utah is a great fit for the PAC and I'm happy for them." No, you are not happy for them. You are bitter and disgruntled. Step out of Utah County some time and walk around the U campus. You will be surprised at how incredibly wrong you are. I've spent lots of time at byu...they are not the same.

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

truecoug (3)

The Pac-10 had specific standards in what they were looking for and the University of Utah met those high standards with a robust portfolio graduate programs (the medical school is a HUGE feather in Utah's cap) and world renown research capabilities. byu is an undergraduate institution with a different mission statement. It is not an attractive target for the Pac-10.

You and I are faithful members of the same religion. I am asking you to please stop using our religion as a scapegoat for byu's weaknesses. I have provided you the necessary data from the very source you and other byu fans love to quote. You are now responsible to conduct yourself accordingly on these comment boards.

anti BCS
Anaheim, CA

MyPerspective

All that research and U still haven't been able to beat a PAC 12 team with a winning record, and now you're not even good to beat a WAC team to qualify for a bowl.

LOL!

MyPerspective
Salt Lake City, UT

anti BCS

Lol! I gave you a 'like' for that one. You are right, last year was incredibly disappointing. Hopefully, my Utes will represent better this year.

Riverton Cougar
Riverton, UT

MyPerspective,

You didn't sufficiently answer truecoug's point: "If these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are, then the USNWR would have placed Utah higher on the list."

Your response says that the PAC values the graduate research side, but obviously USNWR values undergraduate programs more. Also, as truecoug brought up, how does Oklahoma State compare when it comes to graduate programs? If they were considered by PAC officials, and if they are similar to or worse than BYU academically (graduate programs), then graduate programs are not the main reason.

Here's some points to consider when discussing why most people might value undergraduate programs more overall:
1) How many graduate students are there compared to undergraduate students?
2) Where do they get graduate students from?

There are about 3x as many undergrad students as grad students, typically. Maybe even more. Also, graduate students were once undergrads (hence the term "graduate" student), and to be considered a good candidate for graduate school, it makes sense to look into the value of the applicant's undergraduate education.

The fact that BYU ranks very well for students to go on to graduate schools speaks volumes about their undergraduate education.

Wiscougarfan
River Falls, WI

RE: MyPerspective

I don't think many BYU fans dispute that the U has a higher reputation than BYU for research. The reason you have a few on the defensive is because you have inferred that BYU is inferior academically, which it isn't.

Research is what faculty do when they are not teaching, which at "very high research activity" schools is 99% of the time (Note: there is no longer such thing as a "tier 1" research university, that Carnegie Classification title changed several years ago). Indeed, at many research focused institutions good teaching is even penalized because it means you're not spending enough time focused on research.

BYU does not have a medical school nor does it have dozens of graduate programs like the University of Utah. It isn't a research focused school, which was a major reason it was not considered for the PAC12. But it is conceivable that there was some bias brought to bear due to religion. How else would you explain Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech getting invites?--they are all "high research activity" schools just like BYU.

BYU was not a great fit for the PAC, but not because of "academics".

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@MyPerspective "What? Maybe you didn't get the memo...Utah got the invite. LOL! "

Yes, they did. And BYU is a higher ranked academic institution. LOL!

So I'm not sure what your point is.

"Entrance standards are easy to change. Watch what happens at Utah over the next five years. "

Okay, I'll be waiting with bated breath (roll my eyes). If the U's standards INCREASED when Utah entered the PAC 12, and they still fall far short of what BYU's entrance standards are, do U really think it's going to change dramatically within the next 5 years?

"However, byu is NOT a tier 1 research institution...Do you even understand what that is?"

Yes, I do. And I also understand that Oklahoma St is also not a tier 1 research institution. Which again raises the question that you have yet to answer: if being a tier 1 research institution is one of the 'high standards' required by the PAC chancellors and presidents to get into the PAC, then why on earth were they going to invite Oklahoma St with Texas and the other Big XII schools in 2010 BEFORE Utah was even considered?

truecoug1
Provo, UT

@MyPerspective "Absolutely correct. Research and was also key and of course athletics."

I've already refuted the research 'qualification'. As for athletics, if BCS games are a requirement to get in to the PAC, then the PAC would have invited BSU over Utah, and Colorado would never have even sniffed a PAC 12 invite.

BYU's athletic history and legacy far outshines Utah's, in terms of football (more conference championships, more national championships, more top 25 finishes, more bowl games, more national awards, etc) and in terms of overall success. Utah's run from 2004-2008 was a great run. Colorado's was terrible. Yet the Buffs still got an invite to the PAC.

And as I've already shown, Utah has since displayed their 'athletic prowess' as being equivalent to Washington St.

Not good.

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