Holmoe shares insight on future of Y athletics
A new basketball practice facility? What? Te future requires new practice
faciltities to attract 10 or 12 guys willing to come play basketball at BYU on
The article points out, in Holmoe's own words, the desperate desire for byu
to play Utah. It's very important for byu to play the U in order to
validate their (byu's) schedule. It is, in essence, byu's bowl game.
Yet, from Utah's perspective, it's now just another non-conference
game.My, how times have changed.
Wow go red, you haven't been reading the paper lately have you. Your own
fans on your own blog said that they would rather beat BYU than go to a bowl
game. My o my how things are still the same. BYU game is Utahs bowl game each
BYU's bowl game each year is their bowl game in December. Utah's
@Alterego:Let's finish the sentence!BYU's bowl
game each year is their bowl game in December. Utah's however.....is their
spring game.Now that was easy. Wasn't it?
@usngaryWhat article on what blog are talking about? The only
article close to this topic is the one that included both Utah and byu
respondents, in which 60% said that they would rather go to a bowl. Get your
facts straight. As far as the rivalry game is concerned, there has been
downright begging on the part of byu's athletic director and fans to make
Utah play them. It is byu's bowl game. For the U, they have
more important conference games to prepare for, including 3 potential top 10
teams with Oregon, Stanford, and UCLA. byu, on the other hand, has made sure
they have a bye the week before the Utah game. An act of desperation? Perhaps.
Either way, it shows how important the Utah game is to byu.
@AlteregoBYU's bowl game each year is their bowl game in
December. Utah's however.....------------Is in
Looks like another Comment thread that's going to decline into another
junior high level "We're better than you are!!!" Whine fest. I
think I'll go watch the grass grow.
Actual statement: As for the series with Utah, which will take a
two-year hiatus after the two teams meet on Sept. 21, Holmoe said that he and
Utah athletic director Chris Hill "are in discussions" and he's
optimistic that the series will resume on a long-term basis.Usual
frantic and emotion interpretation from the hill:The article points
out, in Holmoe's [deliberately misquoted] own words, the desperate desire
for BYU to play Utah.----------------Sorry to burst your
delusional crimson bubble Gored, but why would BYU need a conference bottom
dwelling team like Utah with ZERO national accomplishments to validate
BYU's future schedules, when the Cougars have already scheduled several
truly elite teams.
Playing a game overseas would be a pretty neat opportunity. It's too bad
the military academies weren't receptive.
My word, both teams need to play each other. Nothing to do about bowl games.
It is about rivalry, money, packed facilities, unbelievable media interest. I
could go on and on. So children please quit beating your chest To
informed about a practice facility. BYU needs one just like Utah does. It is
getting harder and harder to get time for practice and Huntsman or Marriott.
Funny how every school does need students who want to play sports. Take BYU out
of your comment and put Utah there. Very same. But this time you are slurring
a different school. BTW, you could also insert Utah State, Weber State and 300
plus schools all over the country.
BYU is ill-served by the bowl system, in which pretty much every non-BCS school
and every school participating in a low-level bowl loses money. In fact, even
teams going to higher paying bowls lose money.It makes much more
sense to kill the lower-level bowls and go to a NIT-like 16 team playoff where
games are played in home stadiums. It would be much more exciting, much more
interesting, and the money would be much, much better. BYU needs to
take an independent path to the football post-season. The recent NIT run in
basketball shows what a superior path it is without considering the financial
drain of bowl games.
@gored - "desperate"? Come on. Most BYU fans and most Utah fans want
the rivalry game to continue. It's a great game for the fans. Would you
really rather watch your Utes beat up on a team like Northern Colorado or watch
a game that's gone down to the final play in 3 of the last 4 years?The only Utes that want the rivalry to end are the ones with huge egos
who like to think they have moved beyond BYU, but continue to post a comment on
most BYU articles, showing U really are still obsessed with all things blue.The only thing surprising in the article is that the next game with
Notre Dame may not be for "years". Hopefully years means two.I'd love to see our last game of the season be against either Utah State
or Boise State every year.I'd also like to see Holmoe negotiate
a tiered bowl contract - meaning 6 to 9 wins gets us to a Poinsettia type bowl,
10 or 11 wins gets us to a Holiday type bowl. We all know where 12 wins gets
"As for the series with Utah, which will take a two-year hiatus after the
two teams meet on Sept. 21, Holmoe said that he and Utah athletic director Chris
Hill 'are in discussions'..." -- Jay DrewWhy is it
everytime I hear a report that Hill and Holmoe are "in discussions" with
each other about continuing the series, it's coming from Holmoe's
camp? I can't recall the last time I heard Dr. Hill talking about
manuevering to play our irrelevant little brother. Could it be that those
"discussions" are in the same variety as the Y's 30+ year
"discussions" with the Pac-10, or 20+ year "discussions" with
the Big 12?If Holmoe wants Utah to take those nebulous
"discussions" seriously, he should finally bite the bullet, swallow his
pride, and accept a 2-for-1 with their big brother on the Hill. THEN I'm
confident we'll find little bro back on our seasonal lineup. We're
going to need an incentive to continue to play them, since the game means a LOT
more to them than it does for us. Our #1 goal is winning the Pac-12 South.
Theirs is beating Utah
Utah doesn't go to bowl games anymore.
Naval, BYU only wants to continue because it is a local game, big money, they
don't have to spend much to travel. Get over yourself. Obviously
BYU's goal is not to beat utah, it is going to a bowl game. Don't
think the PAC wanted you, they were desperate and needed someone quick to go
with Colorado. We all know they have rejected BYU because of religion,
that's been going on for years.Go red. According to
the blog post, 64 percent of Utah fans would rather beat BYU than go to a bowl
game, according the poll. The self-proclaimed unscientific poll sheds an
interesting light on the passion and importance that fans place on the game each
year.This is on the same online site that this article is on. No
where does it say anything about the BYU fans. Get your facts straight before
you comment. This just proves you only read BYU articles and not utah's.
Building football, and somewhat less for basketball. But the minor sports? Not
so much. Golf, baseball and track are much weaker in recent years than they
used to be. Volleyball and rugby are essentially club sports. What is the real
vision (as opposed to platitudes) for sports other than football and basketball
(about which I am not criticizing)?
USNGary"According to the blog post, 64 percent of Utah fans would
rather beat BYU than go to a bowl game, according the poll." I
don't know what poll this is referring to but poll taken on a Utah Internet
site has the byu game as #3 most important. This poll has a very large sample
size and obviously does not the same results. That said, I have to
hand it byu...their game was considered #4 most important for each of the last
two years. Congratulations on the meteoric leap forward on the importance
scale. I expect it has a lot to with the fact that Utah fans do not want to
listen to byu fans for two full years if the outcome belongs to byu. In my
mind, Utah has already won that game. 1) Regardless of the final score, the
Utes will still be in an elite conference, 2) When the game is over, Utah gets
to leave Provo.
EsquireSince when is Volleyball a club sport? BYU competes against
UCLA, USC, Stanford, Ohio St, and Penn St in Men's Volleyball and has won
THREE NCAA National Championships since 1999.Obviously, you
don't follow volleyball or you wouldn't be so ill informed.-----MyPerspective/Gored/NavelvetMore frantic and
emotional escapes from reality. Utah fans may claim, for the sake of saving face
and getting another dig in at BYU fans, that the BYU-Utah game ranks somewhat
lower than #1, but the truth is, there's not a team on the planet that Utah
fans HATE losing to more than BYU, or a team that Utah fans obsess more about
beating.The fact that you're here desperately trying to
downplay the significance of the game is proof of just how much you really care
about the game, otherwise you wouldn't even bother reading or commenting
about this and every other article even remotely connected to BYU.
We have to teach utah how to win bowl games. Are bowl record is way better.
Smart, rational thinking about rivalries, from Steve Spurrier"Anything can happen when television starts telling you what to do,"
Steve Spurrier of South Carolina said. "But my thought is this: Would
television people rather televise Texas-Texas A&M or Texas A&M-Kentucky?
The conference games are supposed to be bigger. They're not necessarily
bigger than some rivalry games. It's important to play your conference
opponents. It's important to play other people out of conference, too."
TrueBlue"...the truth is, there's not a team on the planet that
Utah fans HATE losing to more than BYU, or a team that Utah fans obsess more
about beating."Well, your assertion is absolutely wrong. The
results of over 700 responses is available on the Block U site. You will see
that the Stanford game is by far the most important followed by Oregon and close
behind is byu. Personally, I have byu at #7 or 8 but that's me. byu fans love to think they are more than they really are and your blatant
denial is proof of that. "otherwise you wouldn't even
bother reading or commenting about this and every other article even remotely
connected to BYU." Are you kidding? Every byu article seems to involve
Utah. If the article itself doesn't byu fans, without fail, find a reason
to bring Utah into the discussion. So, yeah...here I am.
Perspective,This is the poll. Would Utah football fans rather beat rival
BYU and finish with a losing season or lose the rivalry game and finish the
season with a bowl game? The blog Ute Football Central posed that question to
Twitter followers earlier this month.Again, one of your OWN blogs...
I honestly believed after 2000...whenever, that Utah had established a legacy of
going to a BCS bowl every January....Utah, you have left me bitterly
disappointed. Yes you read correct, "bitterly". I'm bitter and
its all on you.
MyPerspectiveSorry, despite your spin, TrueBlue is absolutely
correct:"...there's not a team on the planet that Utah fans
HATE losing to more than BYU, or a team that Utah fans obsess more about
beating."Guaranteed, there won't be half-a-dozen comments
from Utah fans on any Stanford blog between now and the 2nd week of October when
the Utes play Stanford.Guaranteed, there will be THOUSANDS of
comments from Utah fans on multiple BYU blogs between now and the first game of
the season.Your actions defy your words.
goredWhich is it today? It seems obvious that as a Ute fan you
can't decide what's best for the Utes. One day you
don't want to play BYU because they are too easy to beat then on the other
hand your team can't beat enough teams in your 'uber' SOS
conference to make it to any bowl game.On another day you want to
play in the Rose Bowl but in the next breath you have a hard SOS that prevents
that as well or maybe its the team, not the SOS.Then on another day
you'd rather play BYU than the PAC10.2 bowl game tie ins of the Kraft Fight
Hunger and New Mexico Bowls made especially for the bottom dweller sixth and
seventh place caliber team that the Utes are... if they could qualify.Oh, I'm sorry, your difficult SOS prevents you from getting there as
well.The only 'desperate desire' I find around here is a
Ute fan aspiring to .500 from this year's .250 perspective.
Lets get back to Holmoe topic. I don't like the idea traveling over seas to
play a game which is too expensive. I rather see BYU play U than U play Buffs -
pretty simple. And nothing about money against U guys. You heard Urban Meyers
and Alex Smith, "why stop the rivalry which make no sense."Now, I am ready to go fishing for the summer and there are some 100 days to go
for the kickoff against Virginia.
Jealously is thy name BYU Fans.
Ernest, here are some numbers for you..764.433One belongs to BYU, the other to Utah. They are the winning percentages of
each team in bowl games, all-time.
Carson"Jealously is thy name BYU Fans."Jealous
of what?Becoming a punching bag for the big boys of the PAC to pad
their conference records?Or were you referring to being able to
watch bowl week from the comfort of your couch without the distraction of your
team actually playing in a bowl?
Everyone should give up on this rivalry. Read the USC-UCLA rivalry comments or
even Notre Dame-Stanford. At least USC-UCLA is a decent rivalry between two good
football schools that actually belong in the PAC 10 rather than a 3 win
wannabee(that's a prediction for the upcoming season) and an
independent.(8-9 wins) And as for the comments from perspective and others
regarding the recent article of utah going to a bowl game vs. beating BYU. Learn
the facts. The poll clearly and explicitly stated that more utah fans would
prefer beating BYU than to go to a bowl game. Small sample size? Maybe. However,
there is no way to dispute the results of the poll. I wonder myself why I
frequent these boards. I think it's just pure entertainment for me to see
the ignorance on both sides of the ball here in such a useless rivalry for
anyone without relations to the state of Utah. Last thought.. If you want to win
an argument don't look dumb with incorrect facts, asumptions, spelling, and
grammer. You have time to do simple research about spelling before posting. You
lose your credibility right there.
RE:UteologyEast Salt Lake City, UtahI sorry I miss the bowl game
Utah played in January would you please tell me the name of that bowl.GoRedWEST VALLEY CITY, UTPlease give me the exact quote where it
says " Holmoe's own words, the desperate desire for byu to play
Utah" I can't find it."The only article close to this topic
is the one that included both Utah and byu respondents, in which 60%" and
because this is mostly a BYU paper according to most Utes they would say most
BYU fans would rather go to a bowl.Naval VetPhiladelphia,
PAMaybe Chris Hill is still trying to figure out what to do about a coach
who beat and abused his swimmers to comment on football right now. BYU
doesn't need to play Utah in Sept bad enough to give a 2 for 1. BYU can
get several good games in September.
RE: TrollsI couldn't agree more with TrueBlue. If you truly
believed that BYU was #4 or lower on importance to Utah fans than we
wouldn't see comments like "last three, 8 of 11", etc. on every BYU
article (for any sport) ever printed printed. Indeed, if you really believed it
you wouldn't be posting at all. But BYU is the most important game U play,
which is fine... it's a great rivalry game that rarely disappoints, even
when the U comes out on top.
skywalkerI'm sorry..."...there's not a team on the planet
that Utah fans HATE losing to more than BYU, or a team that Utah fans obsess
more about beating" is completely false if the byu game is ranked #3-#4 by
Utah fans every year. No spin here. Go look at the results yourself. 723
responses. The same poll is taken by the site every year byu moved up a notch
this year.Now to the article..."Holmoe said that he and Utah
athletic director Chris Hill "are in discussions" and he's
optimistic that the series will resume on a long-term basis." I agree with
Naval Vet above. Holmoe is the only one who talks about this. If there is
another game with the Utes after 2016 Utah will dictate the terms of the deal,
not byu.Regarding USU..."Holmoe said that he would "love to
play that game in November" and would entertain the possibility of a
home-and-home deal with the Aggies in the future." That's just swell
of Holmoe but he won't have a choice. It will be a home and home, the
Aggies won't settle for less.
From the article..."Holmoe said it was Mendenhall's idea to
re-hire offensive coordinator Robert Anae, and to overhaul the offensive
coaching staff. "He has a lot of faith in Robert," Holmoe said, adding,
"Bronco runs the program."Really? Why then did Holmoe, not
Mendenhall, announce at mid-season in 2012 that there will be changes for the
offense in 2013? I'm just wondering because Mendenhall claimed to not know
what the reference was and it was news to Doman.
stanfunkyWith the proliferation of the bowls making it possible for
every team with a winning record to play in a bowl, one mediocre team beating
another mediocre team doesn't mean much just because it happened "in a
bowl".How many of Utah's bowl winning teams were good
enough to finish in the AP Top 25?AP Top 25 FinishesBYU
- SEVENTEENUtah - FIVENumber of BYU's 31 bowl opponents
that have been ranked in both final polls - 16 (52%)Number of Utah's
17 bowl opponents that have been ranked in both final polls - 4 (24%)
RE: Stanfunky"Ernest, here are some numbers for you. .764 .433
One belongs to BYU, the other to Utah. They are the winning percentages of each
team in bowl games, all-time."Seriously? First, Ernest is an
anti-BYU troll, but a great one in my opinion. Second, let me give you a couple
of numbers:3118One belongs to BYU, the other to
Utah. They are the number of bowl games each school has participated in
all-time. Or how about this 1.000.833These are the bowl game winning percentages of several other powerhouses:
Eastern Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Louisiana-Lafayette, UNLV, New Mexico State.
Percentage smack doesn't work as well if you don't have a history of
playing in bowl games. Now what Utah has done in the last decade (Bowl
game-wise) is super-impressive, but not so impressive when you consider most of
those wins were at lesser bowls than than the ones BYU played in (with two big
Ute fan: The BYU game isn't that important to us Ute fans. We put it at
anywhere between #5 and #8 in importance. We would much rather play and beat
Oregon, Stanford, and USC (and even ASU).Please link us all to your
posts/discussion with these rivals on their websites. Your desire to beat these
teams is similar to what you had for BYU in the 70s and 80s - once a decade, if
that.BYU vs UofU is THE game your heads won't allow you to
admit. Funny to see you creating all these emotional excuses for not caring
Playing Utah is not a "bowl game" to BYU. BYU played a bowl game in
December last year, unlike Utah who sat home and watched the rest of the PAC 12
teams play. The game between BYU and Utah is just as important to both schools,
just like Florida and Florida State and Michigan and Michigan State and so
forth. It's bragging rights in the state for the year. Utah may have a
great year, BYU may have a great year, Utah State may have a great year; but it
doesn't mean as much if the schools don't play each other. So Utah is
in the PAC 12, USU in MWC, and BYU Independent. So what? Conference
doesn't matter. It didn't matter when Utah beat Pitt and Alabama in
the BCS, nor does it matter now.
MyPerspective"If there is another game with the Utes after 2016
Utah will dictate the terms of the deal, not BYU."The ONLY term
Utah will dictate is whether to play BYU or not, which is the exact same term
that BYU will dictate.Frankly, BYU fans would get over not playing
Utah much more quickly than our BYU-obsessed little brothers who judge
everything Utah accomplishes through the prism of how it compares to their big
Naval Vet & MyPersoective:Maybe if you didn't spend so much time
obsessing about BYU you would know what your athletic director says. Quote Chris
Hill in interview with ABC4: "There's been a big change in the fact
that we're in a different league and BYU is independent. That has changed.
But we have no intention of ending the rivalry. Our intention is to continue
it."Sounds to me like Chris Hill wants the rivalry to continue
which is exactly what Holmoe said. If both sides want it to continue don't
you think they'd be discussing it, and continue discussing it til it gets
done? Lets also drop the big/lil brother BS. BYU doesn't need a 60+ sagarin
rated, sub .500 team on their schedule either. We have ND, Wisconsin, Texas, GT,
and Boise State on our schedules with the likes of Nebraska, VT, etc in the
future. BYU doesn't need to weaken our SOS further by including utah (bcs
final rankings for mid tenn st and utah were 64, and 60 respectively...ouch).
This rivalry is about the fans and that's what both ADs recognize.
It's a shame that religion was the reason BYU was kept out of the Pac10.
There is no comparison between BYU and Utah when it comes to national prestige
as well as overall sports program - none. If not for the religious bigotry, no
doubt that the PAC12 would much rather have had BYU.That being said,
there is no question that BYU would rather be playing in the PAC12 right now as
well, but that is not the reality. And rather than crying and whining about
what has transpired, BYU when out and did what only a handful of schools in the
nation could do - independence!I for one, particularly given the
arrogance of Utah coaches, administration and fans, hope we never play Utah
again after this year. We all know that BYU will be just fine without Utah. As
for Utah, well - you traded the top of the MWC for the bottom of the PAC12.
Enjoy your new lot in life - you got what you asked for.As pride in
your school continues to fade, you can still be proud that you are members of
the mighty PAC12!
My Perspective,In my mind, Utah has already won that game. 1)
Regardless of the final score, the Utes will still be in an elite conference, 2)
When the game is over, Utah gets to leave Provo.This is hilarious.
Regardless of the Final score you still win? Because you are in a elite
conference? So Vanderbilt, because they are in the SEC and get destroyed by
every team in the league they are an elite team? You utes fans live in this
world where you don't have to win games just as long as you can put a pac12
sticker in your back window. What planet are you from? Here is the real truth
"My Perspective", you don't win any games unless you score more
points than the other team. Quit making excuses for a terrible last few years.
Its funny because you say how unimportant the BYU game is but then when we point
out how bad your season was you reply by saying "Well we beat BYU!"
I'm glad that Naval Vet, Alternate, my perspective etc. place BYU way down
the list of importance. That's why they never comment on or read any BYU
RE: GoRedDid you see the recent poll that 65% of Utah fans said
that winning the BYU game is more important than a bowl game (not sure if that
meant winning a bowl game or having a bowl game). Sounds like to me Utah
playing BYU is Utah's bowl game and not the other way around. Go figure.
USNGary:"We all know [the Pac-10 had] rejected BYU because of
religion..."No Gary. What we all know is that's just the
fallback excuse for being fully rejected by every expanding relevant conference
in the country. Utah is very heavily populated with LDS members as well. In
fact, most of our General Authorities are Ute alumni. You were rejected because
you wouldn't fit in. Your football program is bush league, you're not
a Tier-1 Research institution, and you've stamped out free
speech/educational freedom to the extent you actually got censored by the AAUP.
So not fit athletically, academically, or culturally."BYU only
wants to continue because it is a local game, big money, they don't have to
spend much to travel. Get over yourself. Obviously BYU's goal is not to
beat utah"Yes it is. It's the only game they sell out, and
Van Noy couldn't bring himself to enter into the NFL draft because of
"unfinished business"....such as beating Utah. It's your most
important game of the year, every year.
Tom Holmoe - doing to BYU football what he did to Cal.
midWACmajor:"BYU fans would get over not playing Utah much more
quickly than our BYU-obsessed little brothers..."Too late. Utah
already got over playing you when we refused to schedule you for '14 and
'15, whereas your fans are still whining about it. Fail.
Cougsndawgs:"BYU doesn't need a 60+ sagarin rated, sub .500
team on their schedule either. We have ND, Wisconsin, Texas, GT, and Boise State
on our schedules with the likes of Nebraska, VT, etc in the future. BYU
doesn't need to weaken our SOS further by including utah..."If that's true, why is your side howling the loudest over our refusal to
schedule you for '14 and '15? Don't forget that ND and Texas
were all "2 for 1"-ish, Nebraska and Wisconsin were all one-offs, Ga.
Tech already dropped their last 2 scheduled games with you, and you don't
REALLY have any future dates with Va. Tech. You just made that part up. So
really, all you got was Boise St. The truth is, you DO need us more than we
need you. Epic fail.
Balan:"It's a shame that religion was the reason BYU was
kept out of the Pac10."No, it's a shame that the
Indy-WACers just can't admit the real reason why they weren't wanted
by not only the Pac-10, but also the Big 12, B1G, ACC, and SEC, and have
resorted to classless, baseless, and disingenuous cries of discrimination.Very shameful indeed.
nhatch82:"Its funny because you say how unimportant the BYU game
is but then when we point out how bad your season was you reply by saying
'Well we beat BYU!'"You ARE unimportant, and the only
reason why we keep pointing to the scoreboard is because you have no leg to
stand on when you're the loser of 3 in a row, 8 of the last 11, and own a
generation gap in the all time series. We're simply pointing out the
"glass house" you've all been living in. There's no
midpacmajor"Frankly, BYU fans would get over not playing Utah much
more quickly than our BYU-obsessed little brothers..." Laughable. No one
complained more about Chris Hill dropping the byu game than byu fans. As I have adequately shown above, 723 responses and the byu ranks #3 in
importance this year. See the block u site. I have to ask how hard
byu fans think Holmoe works the phones to get a game scheduled with a program.
Based on the announcements he makes from time to time, it seems to me that it is
Holmoe making the initial contact and pushing a contract. My guess is that ND
does very little work. Of course, Holmoe wants a game with Utah...it one more
he doesn't have to dig up with someone else.
Balan"If not for the religious bigotry, no doubt that the PAC12 would
much rather have had BYU."Here we go again...The
Pac-10 Presidents and Chancellors have made it very clear that Utah was invited
to the conference based on 1) Academics, 2) Research, 3) Athletic Prowess. Regarding academics, I'll save you the trouble of commenting...byu
is ranked #69 by USNWR, Utah #129. That is for undergrad and the cost of
tuition (dirt cheap at byu) played an important part in that ranking. Now, look
at the ranking in USNWR for graduate programs. Utah is in a class by itself in
the state of Utah (medical school) and aligns well with Pac-12 schools. byu
compares well (and lags in certain fields) to USU. Regarding
research, byu has never been, is not now, or ever will be a tier 1 research
institution. End of story.Athletic Prowess, I have to hand it byu
for this criterion. byu is, in all respects Pac-12 caliber. Bottom
line, it takes more, a lot more, to be in the Pac-12 than sports. There was no
"bigotry." It's all about standards and the bar was too high for
Nav Vet:My bad, I was thinking West Virginia not VT. Future schedules
include Nebraska, Michigan, Texas, Virginia, Cincinnati, and more to come. If it
makes you feel better to think BYU needs U, go ahead and think it. You seem to
live in your own fantasy world anyway. As far as 2-1 that's because the
teams they're playing (other than ND) have conference contracts and that
brings them more leverage. No BYU fans I know of are under any delusions that
scheduling isn't tough and you take what you can get in independence. BYU
is still bigger and better in every regard than Utah, and for that reason they
can do deals in independence and make far more money than Utah ever could. I
know that drives ute fans crazy...the truth usually does. In the meantime Utah
will continue to collect their charity from the big boys in the PAC 12 that
actually drove their 3 billion dollar deal. I'm sure when espn/fox
negotiated that amount Utah had very little to do with the bottom line. Wazzu
and Utah, the welfare kids of the PAC12. Siphoning off others because they
couldn't bring the money themselves.
It's funny listening to ute fans trying to justify how great they are.
Usually when someone does that, that person knows that they are inferior. I
can't stand utah fans, I can't stand that school. I don't care if
we play them at all anymore. BYU doesn't need utah, utah doesn't need
BYU. BYU will continue to be the more interesting story and utah will continue
to lose their shorts in the pac. Your goal is to win the pac south. Wooopty
dooooo! What will that do for your program? Hey recruit come to our school we
won the pac south. Sounds Exciting....Sarcasm. Hey utes, You should
just put all your chips into the womens gymnastics pot and call it a day. BYU
will continue to play competitive football, basketball, volleyball, baseball,
rugby, swimming, soccer, golf, track etc. And ute fan you can hope to win the
pac south and cheer on your red rocks (or women utes or whatever you call them)
gymnastics team. Anyway, Go Cougs!
RE: Frantic and Emotional"…What we all know is that's
just the fallback excuse for being fully rejected by every expanding relevant
conference in the country. Utah is very heavily populated with LDS members as
well. In fact, most of our General Authorities are Ute alumni. You were rejected
because you wouldn't fit in. Your football program is bush league,
you're not a Tier-1 Research institution, and you've stamped out free
speech/educational freedom to the extent you actually got censored by the AAUP.
So not fit athletically, academically, or culturally."This
comment shows how uninformed some trolls are. Point 1.
"fallback excuse for being fully rejected by every expanding relevant
conference." Love how what used to be "BCS" is now "expanding
relevant". This must be since the Big East wanted BYU. Point
2. "Most General Authorities are Ute alumni as well." Not true,
perhaps twenty years ago, but not anymore. Only three of the current 12
apostles are Ute grads (six are BYU)... and if you extend it to all general
authorities less than 5% are Ute alumni. Point 3. "You were
rejected because you wouldn't fit in." Perhaps true.Continued
ContinuedPoint 4. “your football program is bush league.”
Whether BYU or Utah currently has a better football program is debatable…
but they are similar enough that if one is “bush league” than so is
the other.Point 5. “you’re not a tier-1 research
institution.” It is true that BYU is not a “very high research
activity” institution (Carnegie classification), but either are Texas
Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State, and they all received PAC 10 invites. Point 6. “you’ve stamped out free speech/educational
freedom to the extent you actually got censored by the AAUP.” I
didn’t know who the AAUP was so I had to look it up (American Association
of University Professors), ironic and perhaps a little sad since I am a
university professor. You’re right, BYU is on the list. So is USC. Point 7. “not fit athletically, academically, or
culturally.” See director’s cup, admission requirements, students
who get advanced degrees, international programs, and students that lived
abroad. BYU is easily the most athletic, academically rigorous, and culturally
aware school in Utah.
MyPerspective - so what are the uppity ups of the PAC12 going to say???
"Hey sports world, the reason we didn't take BYU is because we
don't like Mormons, and besides, they won't play on Sunday"???
Nope, they said exactly what you said - but anyone with a brain knows better.The only thing Utah has on BYU of the three you listed is possibly
research. In the other two areas of academics and athletic prowess, BYU is
light years ahead of Utah.So keep wearing those crimson-tinted
glasses MP. They will keep you from having to deal with the truth!
Naval Vet:BYU wasnt wanted by any "relevant conference"? The Big
12 came to BYU before TCU or WVU. BYU walked away from the table and wasn't
willing to put themselves on the line without contracts and promises made in
writing. Chip Brown (probably the most "in-the-know of any of the
realignment reporters concerning the Big 12): "BYU was a serious
candidate for expansion until last September, when OU destabilized the Big 12
when it tried to go to the Pac12. At that point, BYU officials were turned off
by the instability and backed away, saying it cherished its independence. BYU
turned away from the Big 12 first. So that was a downfall."That
doesn't sound like the Big 12 didn't want BYU. Last time I checked the
Big 12 is a "relevant conference" (usually 2nd to only the SEC in comp
power rankings). Stop "frantically and emotionally" making stuff up.
navelvet"Utah already got over playing you when we refused to
schedule you for '14 and '15,..."You've
misinterpreted whining for laughing at the feeble excuse Chris Hill gave that he
didn't think the Utes were good enough to handle playing BYU and Michigan
in the same year.Funny how that worked out, since BYU also scheduled
Michigan in 2015.It's laughable that Utah fans who claimed they
were "moving on" three years ago are still so obsessed with BYU that
they continue to spam every BYU article.What's even more
laughable is the only wins CONSTANTLY cited by Utah fans since the Utes joined
the PAC, are Utah's two wins against BYU. There's not a day goes by
that Utah's record against BYU isn't cited by several Utah fans.
The Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl?? Are you serious Tom?? Geez - gone are the good ole
days when the Y at least played in the Vegas Bowl. Crappy home schedule. Crappy
bowl prospects. Gee, independence has worked out so well. Maybe add the Dixie
Rotary Bowl to the list. BYU football is headed for the cellar.
When it comes to sports, Utah is still the armpit of the PAC12. They don't
win at anything. Of course they have to troll BYU articles as they have nothing
else to talk about. Pick a sport and the UofU is vying for last place. BYU has
a well rounded competitive sports program and we get to regularly watch games.
And, we can expect that often BYU will win. What is not to like?
@ midWACmajor"Funny how that worked out, since BYU also
scheduled Michigan in 2015"The funny thing is: Utah got a home
and home with Michigan in 2014 and 2015 while little brother BYU can only muster
up a one and done with Michigan in Ann Arbor. Could it be
Utah's Pac-12 conference affiliation that got them a home and home with
Michigan? Why didn't mighty BYU of the Independent conference get a home
and home with Michigan? hmmm.......
Wiscougarfan: well said in your posts of 3:29 & 3:31. Hope to bump into you
in Madison in November!
Clark W. GriswoldUtah got a home and home with Michigan and used
that as a convenient excuse for wimping out on playing their big brothers.For all of their talk about being "one of the big boys", the
truth is, the Utes are nothing more than a scared little bottom dweller that has
to schedule at least two OOC gimmes every year just to keep their slim bowl
hopes alive.Despite all of their brave talk on these blogs, the kids
on the hill know that BYU is far from a gimme; 2 of your last 3 wins could have
very easily gone in BYU's favor.
RE: metamoracougCheers. Shocking that NV never responded back, eh?
The truth is hard to face, which is why trolls never respond but instead change
the subject. I am looking forward to trekking over to Camp Randall,
should be a great game. Might make it down to South Bend as well.
I don't know if you are reading this, Tom Holmoe, but in case you are:I think you are doing an amazing job managing independence. I'm
continually impressed by the rabbits you keep pulling out of your hat. Also, I love having Bronco Mendenhall as our head coach. As an alum and a fan,
I hope you extend his contract soon.
Frankly I'm tired of the posts the repeat (and then repeat again) the same
comments about red vs blue so here is an objective post from a Utah fan about
this article.Holmoe has done a good job of improving the football schedule
each year and this year will be a challenge for the Y to win 7 or 8 games. BYU
has historically made a living beating up on a number of weak teams and having
mixed results when playing the better teams. It will be interesting to see if
he will continue to try and schedule 8-10 games against BCS caliber teams if the
winning percentage drops to around .500. Will also be interesting to see if ND
and Wisc actually play in Provo in the next 5 years.
I have to laugh at the Ute fans who have 'mentally moved on.' Was
that before or after you guys rushed the field THREE TIMES in last year's
win against BYU??I really like that Holmoe is talking about trying
to move the BYU/USU game to November. That seems like a natural fit.The way things are looking right now, Utah is not going to be any more
relevant that either BYU OR USU. While it is impressive that Utah got
themselves into the PAC 12 (after 4 Big 12 teams declined), wins will be
required to stay relevant in the state of Utah, let alone the nation. Finally, it's very easy to see the day coming when the PAC 12 needs to
expand again. It is also very easy to see BYU becoming a member of that
conference with Utah.
@ arrogant chickens"Utah got a home and home with Michigan and
used that as a convenient excuse for wimping out on playing their big
brothers"What's with Y fans claiming BYU is the big
brother? BYU can't even beat Utah anymore!Wimping out to play
Michigan? I believe Michigan will put up a better fight than BYU ever could! I
see it as Utah going to capitalize on a golden opportunity at the expense of
dumping BYU for two years!"For all of their talk about being
"one of the big boys", the truth is, the Utes are nothing more than a
scared little bottom dweller that has to schedule at least two OOC gimmes every
year just to keep their slim bowl hopes alive"Scared little
cowards? 8 of 11 and 3 in a row! That's called consistency! Utah is just
modeling their schedule after the SEC! How many non-conference cupcakes does SEC
teams play? Your argument holds no water!
@ Tajemnica"Learn the facts. The poll clearly and explicitly
stated that more utah fans would prefer beating BYU than to go to a bowl game.
Small sample size? Maybe. However, there is no way to dispute the results of the
poll."Yes there is. The poll was unscientific, therefore the
results mean nothing. The DNews also conducted the same unscientific poll, and
it came back with the opposite numbers. Consider the results of BOTH polls
@ BalanDon't pretend to be a victim. BYU simply does not meet
PAC-12 standards academically. You can't whine about discrimination if you
don't meet the requirements at the most basic level.Any school
can go independent. Utah St. did it twice. Currently Idaho and New Mexico St.
are moving into independence. I don't understand why that is such a source
of pride for BYU fans. But congrats anyway, I guess.I think
it's funny you call Utah's fans, coaches, and administration (is that
you, Max?) arrogant when you dedicated the first half of your post to talking
about how much better BYU is at everything.I, for one, am prouder
than ever to be a Utah fan and alum. I'm also proud that Utah decided to
step up and compete in the conference of champions. Succeeding in the MWC was
great, but when Utah succeeds in the PAC-12 it will be on a national level.
@ wildcoug"Your goal is to win the pac south. Wooopty dooooo!
What will that do for your program? Hey recruit come to our school we won the
pac south. Sounds Exciting....Sarcasm. "\You don't
understand what competing for PAC-12 titles will do for a program? Look at USC,
Oregon, and Stanford for your answer...@ Arrogant Chickens"that has to schedule at least two OOC gimmes every year just to keep
their slim bowl hopes alive."Yes, joining the PAC-12 and
scheduling Michigan and Fresno was done because Utah is scared to play tough
teams. Remind us again who played 5 teams ranked 100+ (4 ranked over 150) last
year? And also who plays MTSU, Idaho St., Houston, and Virginia next season.
During Utah's time in the PAC the Utes have only played two FCS
teams (UNCO, and Montana St.) The other non-conference games were BYU (twice),
Pitt, and Utah St. I'm not sure who the second "gimme" is, unless
of course you were referring to BYU....
twoferHere's a little reminder of who only played TWO Top 25
teams last year and who played FIVE. It really doesn't matter how good/bad
the teams at the bottom of your schedule are if the top of your schedule is
mediocre.Average SOS can be misleading. Which schedule would likely
yield the best results? Schedule Y, playing #1 and #121? Or schedule U, playing
#60 and #62? Average SOS for both two-game schedules is #61.The top
five teams on BYU's schedule were all ranked and had a combined 54-11
record.Only two of the top 5 teams on Utah's schedule were ranked and
had a combined 44-24 record.BYUat #4/#3 Notre Dame(12-1)#16/#17 Utah State(11-2)at #18/#14 Boise State(11-2)#20/#19 Oregon
State(9-4)at #21/#21 San Jose State(11-2)Utahat #16/#17
Utah State(11-2)at #20/#19 Oregon State(9-4)unranked BYU(8-5)at unranked ASU(8-5)at unranked UCLA(8-5)
twoferSince the Utes don't appear to be capable of finishing
with a winning conference record, the Utes need to win at least 2 of 3 OOC games
to keep their slim bowl hopes alive.Playing Michigan, BYU and a Big
Sky team could very easily result in a 1-2 OOC record, and no bowl, whereas,
playing Michigan, Fresno St and a Big Sky team would likely result in at least a
2-1 OOC record, and a likely bowl.This was Chris Hill's
reasoning when he stated that he didn't think Utah could handle playing
Michigan and BYU in the same season.That's reality, whether U
want to accept it or not.The Ute narrative that this was done
"for recruiting purposes" is laughable!
Men's Volleyball only gets 3 scholarships, so it is as close to a club
sport as you can get without being a club sport.
In announcing his decision to drop BYU from Utah's schedule, Dr. Hill did
mention how difficult it would be for Utah to play both BYU and Michigan in the
same season. What he didn't mention, was that Utah needed to add Fresno
State for recruiting purposes. Utah fans simply made that up to save face.Doesn't really matter how the kids on the hill spin it. It's
obvious which team is running away from the other because they're scared of
COUGARNATEPer NCAA regulations, BYU Men's Volleyball gets 4.5
full-ride scholarships just like every other NCAA Men's Volleyball team.
BYU divides these scholarships amongst the team. In addition, BYU spends in
excess of $1 million to support men's volleyball every year, so it's
not even close to being like a club sport.
My daddy can beat up on your daddy!
@ arrogant chickens"Despite all of their brave talk on these
blogs, the kids on the hill know that BYU is far from a gimme; 2 of your last 3
wins could have very easily gone in BYU's favor"And your
wins in 2006, 2007, and 2009 could easily have gone in Utah's favor! By the way! Your user name indicates how much BYU needs Utah on their
CBG"Your user name indicates how much BYU needs Utah on their
schedule!"Don't kid yourself.A conference
bottom-dwelling big boy wannabe will be easy to replace with a much better
nationally respected opponent, especially in September.
@Clark "What's with Y fans claiming BYU is the big brother? BYU
can't even beat Utah anymore!"Bro, it wasn't that long
ago that BYU had taken 3 out of 4 from Utah and the shoe was on the other foot.
Utah's got scoreboard over the last three years, but spare me with the
"BYU can't even beat Utah anymore". Two of the last three wins
were given to you on a silver platter by BYU.Also, back in 2008,
Boston College beat Notre Dame for the 6th time in a row. Are you trying to
tell me that you would consider Notre Dame to be Boston College's little
brother at that point?Utah is the 'little' brother because
their fans base is less than half the size of BYU's, their
'legacy' consists of 2 BCS wins...and they constantly use beating BYU
as their metric of success.That's about as 'little
brotherish' as it gets.Go Cougars!
Based on the comments by the AD at BYU, they are still trying to validate
themselves as an independent program. Holmoe himself had said that there would
be changes in the football program. So far, this has only been window dressing.
A once successful athletic program at BYU on a national level is struggling to
schedule teams to play in footbal and looking at low level bowl games. Holmoe
talks about alot of games with other teams, yet there is nothing that has been
confirmed on a long-term basis. My question would be whether or not there is a
long-term plan for athletics at BYU. It seems that we have long since seen the
best of BYU athletics.
scottAlpine, UT said:"CBG""Your user
name indicates how much BYU needs Utah on their schedule!""Don't kid yourself.A conference bottom-dwelling big boy
wannabe will be easy to replace with a much better nationally respected
opponent, especially in September."Given BYUs record against
nationally respected opponents the past few years, The Cougs are just Idaho and
New Mexico State in blue and white uniforms. A payout, nothing else for BYU.
As for religion being the biggest factor in keeping BYU (and Baylor) out of the
PAC 10, I think that's pretty obvious to everybody besides Utah fans. Of
course the PAC 10 isn't going to say that, but a lot of other people have
referred to it:Berry Trammel, The Oklahoman: "And no way is
Baylor attractive to the Pac-10. The Pac-10 always has been allergic to Brigham
Young, another church-based school. Baylor is the nation's largest Baptist
university. A Baptist friend of mine says Baylor actually is quite liberal in
Baptist eyes, but I don't think that's a concept Berkeley recognizes,
liberal Baptist."Matthew Smith, Scout: "BYU comes with its
own set of issues. They won't play sports on Sundays, they're a very
religious university (which is NOT a good cultural fit with the
Pac-10)..."George Schroeder, Sports Illustrated: "Ditto for
BYU, even though the Cougars bring a larger fan base and TV market to the table.
No one in the Pac-10 will say it aloud, but a religious school like BYU
isn't getting an invitation."
RE: Two for Flinching" Succeeding in the MWC was great, but when
Utah succeeds in the PAC-12 it will be on a national level."Great, I'm glad you feel that way. So this means you can stop talking
about 2004 and 2008, three and a row and eight of eleven... after all, those
things weren't national so they don't really matter. Indeed, now that
you've moved on you don't even need to post on BYU articles anymore.
Thanks in advance.
upinthenight"Given BYUs record against nationally respected
opponents the past few years, The Cougs are just Idaho and New Mexico State in
blue and white uniforms."Since 2008:BYU is 2-10
(17%) versus 12 ranked opponents with wins coming against #18/#18 Utah and
#16/#17 Utah State.Utah is 1-8 (13%) versus 9 ranked opponents with
Utah's lone win coming against ur/#25 BYU.If BYU's record
against nationally ranked opponents the past few years makes the Cougars just
Idaho and New Mexico State in blue and white uniforms, what does that make a
conference bottom dweller and bowl game no show like U?Face it, your
flash-in-the-pan glory days have faded almost as quickly as they began.Just like the 80's, BYU has once again become your bowl game.
The DeuceYou obviously haven't been following BYU athletics
very closely the last few years if your only take on the entire program is that
it's more difficult to schedule 12 games, instead of 3, or that it's
harder to negotiate bowl-game tie-ins as an Independent, than as a member of an
I hope that you all realize that Y fans can and did get onto that poll and
skewed the results of the voting. I do that all the time when I happen to come
across a Y poll. I make it look worse than it actually is. If it was all UTE
fans voting on that poll and there was no way a non UTE fan could vote, than I
may actually believe the results of that poll. There are some UTE
fans that would rather beat the Y and not make it to a bowl game. The majority
though of true UTE fans these days would rahter see us lose to the Y and beat
the teams in the PAC 12 and make a bowl game, and win that game. I want the
rivalry to continue, as it has been fun for me to watch my UTES beat the Y most
years since I was 9 years old back in 1988 when they won 57-28. I have been to
every single rivalry game since that time. They are fun to go to, and a great
atmosphere. Let's Keep the rivalry going. The UTES win more often than not.
Nice article that highlights the challenges of being in the world and not of the
world in today's collegiate athletics. The only question is why the DN
censors permit the off-topic, troll comments.
I agree with Papa SmurfUTE that the BYU/Utah rivalry is a great one. While the
atmosphere in SLC and Provo doesn't quite reach that of Columbus, Madison,
and South Bend the games are always intense and the fans are equally passionate
about their teams. I started watching "the holy war" a few
years before Papa SmurfUTE so I've seen the Cougars come out on top more
often than the Utes but this past decade has been a test of endurance. I'm
hoping this year momentum can change direction. I know fans have
become sensitive about this whole rivalry vs. bowl game debate but I will
unabashedly admit that I look forward more to the BYU/Utah game than any other
game each season with few exceptions. Even living out here in Badger country
and as a Big Ten alum I am more excited/anxious about the Ute game in Sept. than
I am about the Cougars facing my Badgers. While I give the trolls a hard time
because they are mostly blowing smoke I am glad there are passionate fans on
both side of the rivalry. Go Cougs!
"Utah barely beat us in 2010 and 2012"Are Y fans really
using this as an excuse? A win is a win. BYU won some very close games in 09,
07, 06, 01 etc. The Y fans using the close game excuse are missing the
point.... Utah really does own you on the field. Three in a row, 8 of 11, 13 of
I'll wager the number of calls Holmoe has taken this year from teams asking
to schedule a football series with BYU numbers is more than Navel Vet's
posts on this article, but barely.
@U90 And BYU owns Utah in national prominence (National
Championship, Heisman Trophy winner, perennial top-25 team, multiple conference
championships, had one of the top 25 Dynasties in College Football according to
Athlon)."But...but...we OWN BYU head-to-head."Congratulations. Your one major accomplishment in Utah's
'vaunted' legacy...that, and two BCS wins.I can never tell
which is more important to Ute fans.Nobody cares about Utah outside
of SLC. I don't, and I certainly don't care about them enough to go
on their boards and make inane comments about them.Utah is
small-time. U are the equivalent of Washington St. There were two teams in the
PAC 12 this last season that finished 9th or worse in football, basketball, AND
baseball: Washington St and Utah.It's pathetic that BYU has
lost so many times to a team of that caliber.It's even MORE
pathetic that Utah IS a team of that caliber.No wonder you're
here on the BYU boards...there's not a whole lot to support over on the
Utah ones.But thanks for showing your support for all things BYU.Go Cougars!
What many fail to realize in the big picture of all this is the future mission
of BYU, and its debate right now within the ranks of senior LDS Church
leadership. North American LDS Church membership which is where BYU draws 95%+
of their studentbody from, is not internally growing as it was in the past half
century and there will be fewer kids to attract a top-notch studentbody from in
the years ahead (hence the mission age change policy). Where church leadership
is at a concensus on is educating the best academically at the cost advantage an
LDS Church school can provide over a state institution. There are those at the
top who seriously question the need for BYU to carry such a large athletic
department and brand, but what comes if BYU were to drop football? More than
likely you'll see UVU pick up that baton and build a program as fast or
faster than Boise State did, at least minus the 25 years in the Big Sky. So in
rality such a move would NOT help Utah State in the end. Higher education
demography, enrollemnt and alumni have changed too mcuh in 50 years.
SLC BYU FanThe giant hole in your argument is that BYU's
athletic department is self-sustaining (no tithing funds are spent on BYU
athletics) and BYU athletics bring enormous exposure nationally and
internationally to both BYU and the church.Although U.S. church
membership isn't growing as fast as other areas of the church, it is
growing. Who cares whether the source of that growth is internal or external.
Since when is that a criteria for a new member wanting to attend BYU?
BalanAs I already explained to you..."byu is ranked #69 by USNWR, Utah
#129. That is for undergrad and the cost of tuition (dirt cheap at byu) played
an important part in that ranking. Now, look at the ranking in USNWR for
graduate programs. Utah is in a class by itself in the state of Utah (medical
school) and aligns well with Pac-12 schools. byu compares well (and lags in
certain fields) to USU."Please don't take my word for it,
look it up in USNWR. byu is an inexpensive undergrad institution. Were the
Pac-10 Presidents and Chancellors interested in that? No. Nor were they
impressed with byu's paper thin portfolio of graduate and PhD fields of
study and poor rankings in what they do have. Look it up in the publication you
people like to quote. Be careful though, you might learn something you would
rather not have to acknowledge.
@MyPerspectiveWow...your spin is unbelievable. This is
from the USNWR site itself: "The rankings allow you to compare at a glance
the relative quality of institutions based on such widely accepted indicators of
excellence as freshman retention, graduation rates, and the strength of the
faculty." Yes, cost of tuition is part of it as well, but
it's not a 'major' part of the ranking, as you stated. For that,
you can go to the Best Value Colleges, where BYU find itself at #15 (I have no
idea where Utah is).Also, BYU is at #68 in the Best National
Universities category, Utah at #125. Here is what the USNWR site says about
what qualifies an institution as a "National" university: "Schools
in the National Universities category offer a full range of undergraduate
majors, plus master's and Ph.D. programs. These colleges also are committed
to producing groundbreaking research."Interesting...it's
not just undergraduate programs taken into account, but Master's and Ph.D.
programs along with research. And with all of that, BYU finds itself ranked
ahead of Oregon, Utah, WSU, and Arizona.So much for your "Utah
got into the PAC 10 because of higher academics" spin.Go
I'm a huge Cougar fan but I have little respect for Holmoe... I think that
he has done more to hurt BYU athletics than any other AD in BYU history.. He
talks like he's everybodies best friend but never delivers...We
should be in the BIG 12 right now and I am convinced that if we had an AD with a
backbone and with "trust" among other schools we would be ...Instead we
are fighting and clawing and compromising our schedules away every year and
it's starting to show in our recruiting...When Holmoe tells you
that he's working on a ontract with Bronco and that it will happen when it
happens then you know it's time to worry... When he says positive things
about Utah and scheduling for the future and then immediately talks about
maneuvering USU into a November time slot then you know that those discussions
aren't going very well...I simply don't think you can
trust a thing this guy says and I don't think that he can get us into a BCS
To: PAC man Anaheim, CA - The key issues that I am outlining are not the
difficulty in scheduling games but rather that lack of forsight when going
independent thinking that teams would line up. In addition, over the past few
years, the major athletic programs at BYU have been trying to gain credibility.
The football program just happens to be at the top of the list given the dismal
seasons we have experienced. I was attempting to shed light on the fact that
there has been way too much talk with little results. I think its fine to
schedule San Jose State along with Univ. of Idaho and others. Only problem is,
you need to win a couple of these games. My issue has been the fact that this
independent thing was not thought through completely and we are still paying for
the decision to go this direction.
Truecoug,If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about
them outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has
been ignored by every major football league?If you don't
believe that Utah has attracted more national attention over the last 10 years
than BYU you have been living in a bubble called happy valley.Leave
it to someone from Provo to be the authority on the pulse of the Utes outside of
U90"If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about
them outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has
been ignored by every major football league?"We all know the
reason, so why do arrogant Utah fans keep pretending.It wasn't
the "exceptional" quality of Utah's athletics that got the Utes
into the PAC 12 - it was their better "cultural" fit (read: secular,
non-religious) and greater quantity of research, and had absolutely nothing to
do with the quality of Utah athletics.There are lots of "small
time" football programs in "big time" conferences, Utah is just one
of the latest - see Rutgers, Washington State, Indiana, Vanderbilt,
Northwestern, Iowa State, Duke, to name but a few.After two years in
the PAC, the Utes are 7-11 in conference. Utah fans claim this is an anomaly,
only a period of adjustment, before Utah gets used to playing in a big boy
conference.The truth is, Utah will NEVER out recruit USC, UCLA,
Stanford, ASU or Oregon and will always be nothing more than an also ran, just
like Arizona has been in football during most of its tenure in the PAC.
I do appreciate a little smack talk between the fans but I always find it lame
for some to claim they do not care about the BYU v. Utah game. We all care.
That's why we come to the boards and comment. I do not see the usual
suspect all over the Boulder CO papers web talking about the "Big Game"
between the Buffs and the Utes.We all love the game and all love to
live off the win for the next year. After all its June and we are
all already concerned about the game and like it or not when its gone for two
years all we can do then is compare schedules and say a lot of "what
truecoug1 (first post)"Yes, cost of tuition is part of it as well,
but it's not a 'major' part of the ranking, as you stated."
Fine, we agree that cost is a factor. Good starting point."Also, BYU is at #68 in the Best National Universities category, Utah at
#125. Here is what the USNWR site says about what qualifies an institution as a
National university: "Schools in the National Universities category offer a
full range of undergraduate majors, plus master's and Ph.D. programs. These
colleges also are committed to producing groundbreaking research." This is where your logic is flawed. You believe this broad statement
applies equally to every school in the ranking don't you. It doesn't.
I hope you appreciate the work I put into the following posts on your behalf...
truecoug1 (2nd post)The following is a list of ranked Grad Programs.
Order of data - Field of study, Utah rank, BYU rank, and USU rank: From the
USNWR site itself…•Audiology, 42, NA, 45•Biological Engineering NA, NA, 28•Biological Sciences 56,
144, 28•Business 61, 30 ( byu Acctg #7), USU Rank Not Avail •Chemical Eng 60, 81, NA•Chemistry 36, 107, 94•Civil Eng 66, 90, 80•Clinical Psychology 47, 114, NA•Computer Eng 38, 62 NA•Computer Science 39, 91, NA•Education 65, 81, 24•Electrical Eng 44, 113, 113•Fine Arts 93, 153, NA•Law 41, 44 NA•Math 30,
NA, 104•Mechanical Eng 57, 68, 119•Nursing 36, 99, NA•Physics 63, 102, 133•Psychology 67, 177, 177•Public Affairs 73, 59, NA•Social Work 52, 104, NA•Speech Pathology 32, 62, 45
truecoug1 (3rd post)Fields of study at Utah not BYU or USUBiomedical Eng 27Earth Sciences 45Material Eng 55Medical
School – Primary Care 29Medical School Research 48Number
Theory 16Nursing Mid-Wife 8Occupational Therapy 47Pharmacy
10Physical Therapy 14Physician Assistant 2I am not
spinning anything, truecoug1. If you were one of the Presidents and Chancellors
of the Pac-10 faced with extending an invitation to an institution to join your
elite conference and academics was an absolute criteria that had to be met, who
would you choose? If research was a criterion that absolutely had to be met,
would you look for a tier 1 research institution? Of course you would. It's sad that byu fans refer to the leaders of the Pac-12 as
“bigots” simply because byu fans didn’t get what they wanted.
The reasons for the actions taken by the conference were clear and the standards
were high. The University of Utah met those criteria. byu fans need to just
Mt Rushmore"It wasn't the "exceptional" quality of
Utah's athletics that got the Utes into the PAC 12 - it was their better
"cultural" fit (read: secular, non-religious) and greater quantity of
research, and had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of Utah
athletics." Well, it certainly was about more than just sports,
sports, and sports that's is an absolute fact! LOL! It was
about meeting high standards...see my responses to truecoug1.
@MyPerspectiveI'm not arguing that Utah has great graduate
programs. I think Utah is a great school. I'm simply refuting your
statement that the cost of tuition was the biggest reason why BYU was ranked
ahead of Utah.It wasn't. The criteria for choosing the schools
was laid out clearly by the USNWR and graduate programs was one of them. If
these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are, then the USNWR
would have placed Utah higher on the list.But they didn't. BYU
has fabulous undergraduate programs, tremendous faculty, higher academic
standards than Utah (the D News recently posted an article on how the incoming
GPA for students at Utah increased upon entering the PAC 12 to a 2.6 and an 18
on the ACT...BYU requires a 3.0 GPA and 23), and BYU does plenty of research.Academics is not the reason why Utah got into the PAC 12 and BYU
didn't, much as Ute fans would like to think. I've already detailed
below how religion was the biggest key for BYU not getting an invite.But I think Utah is a great fit for the PAC and I'm happy for them.
@U90 "If the Utes are "small time" and nobody cares about them
outside of Utah, why did they land in a big time conference while BYU has been
ignored by every major football league?"Simple. Utah was the
backup plan for the PAC 10 when Texas and the other Big XII schools decided to
remain in the Big XII and the PAC was stuck at 11. They needed 12 to fill out
their conference and allow them to have a conference championship game and Utah
was the best cultural and geographical fit.But even the PAC think
you're small time. Here's a segment from an article by Dennis Dodds
about Utah and Colorado being expansion candidates to the PAC 10: "Utah and
Colorado are the most widely mentioned Pac-10 additions but there is doubt
whether the schools could add enough revenue to make expansion worthwhile.
"The conventional wisdom is Utah and Colorado doesn't get you enough
eyeballs," one Pac-10 AD said referring to a potential television
@U90 continuedAlso, in his latest college football magazine, Phil
Steele left out Utah as being one of BYU's BCS opponents for the 2013
season, even though U are in the PAC 12 (whether he did it intentionally or
unintentionally, I still find that rather humorous).So it's not
just me who thinks Utah is a small-time school. Also, BYU
wasn't "ignored by 'major' conferences." Both the Big
XII and Big East approached them during expansion times. Talks fell apart with
the Big XII, and BYU turned down an invite to the Big East.So
I'm sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but Utah is as relevant as
Washington St now. Which is to say, not at all.So why don't U
go support your team on their boards? They need all the help they can get.Go Cougars!
@MyPerspectiveOne more thing. If academics were such a high
priority for the PAC 10 chancellors and presidents, then why on earth were they
considering inviting Oklahoma St during the original expansion talks in 2010?That kind of blows the "Academics" argument out the window.Well, that, and the fact that BYU is still an academically ranked higher
national university than Oregon, Utah, WSU, and Arizona.Look,
I'm not trying to take anything away from Utah. I think they're a
fine academic institution, and there's no way BYU would have been a good
fit in the PAC. The PAC made the right choice, and I'm happy for the
Utes.But please don't try to build up Utah as something
they're not, or to diminish BYU as an academic institution. Academics are
not what set Utah apart from BYU for the PAC 12.The fact that did
was that BYU is a church-school and Utah is not.Refer to my below
quotes from national columnists for more evidence on that subject.Go
Cougars! And (even though I enjoy trash-talking with Ute fans) best of luck to
truecoug1 (A simple thank you would have sufficed."If
these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are, then the USNWR
would have placed Utah higher on the list." What? Maybe you didn't
get the memo...Utah got the invite. LOL! "BYU has fabulous
undergraduate programs, tremendous faculty, higher academic standards than Utah
(the D News recently posted an article on how the incoming GPA for students at
Utah increased upon entering the PAC 12 to a 2.6 and an 18 on the ACT...BYU
requires a 3.0 GPA and 23)" Entrance standards are easy to change. Watch
what happens at Utah over the next five years. "...and BYU does
plenty of research." byu, like every school in the country does research.
However, byu is NOT a tier 1 research institution. Never has been and never
will be. There are 52 in the country and byu is NOT numbered among them. Do
you even understand what that is? Hint: it has nothing to do with sports. Have
you been on the UofU campus recently? Ever? Take a tour, the Pac-10 found
exactly what they were looking for in a research institution.
truecoug1 (2)"Academics is not the reason why Utah got into the PAC 12
and BYU didn't, much as Ute fans would like to think." Absolutely
correct. Research and was also key and of course athletics. "I've already detailed below how religion was the biggest key for BYU
not getting an invite." You are the one who quoted a couple of sports
writers? Enough said on that topic."But I think Utah is a great
fit for the PAC and I'm happy for them." No, you are not happy for
them. You are bitter and disgruntled. Step out of Utah County some time and
walk around the U campus. You will be surprised at how incredibly wrong you
are. I've spent lots of time at byu...they are not the same.
truecoug (3)The Pac-10 had specific standards in what they were
looking for and the University of Utah met those high standards with a robust
portfolio graduate programs (the medical school is a HUGE feather in Utah's
cap) and world renown research capabilities. byu is an undergraduate
institution with a different mission statement. It is not an attractive target
for the Pac-10. You and I are faithful members of the same religion.
I am asking you to please stop using our religion as a scapegoat for byu's
weaknesses. I have provided you the necessary data from the very source you and
other byu fans love to quote. You are now responsible to conduct yourself
accordingly on these comment boards.
MyPerspectiveAll that research and U still haven't been able to
beat a PAC 12 team with a winning record, and now you're not even good to
beat a WAC team to qualify for a bowl.LOL!
anti BCSLol! I gave you a 'like' for that one. You are
right, last year was incredibly disappointing. Hopefully, my Utes will
represent better this year.
MyPerspective,You didn't sufficiently answer truecoug's
point: "If these graduate programs were as important as you feel they are,
then the USNWR would have placed Utah higher on the list."Your
response says that the PAC values the graduate research side, but obviously
USNWR values undergraduate programs more. Also, as truecoug brought up, how does
Oklahoma State compare when it comes to graduate programs? If they were
considered by PAC officials, and if they are similar to or worse than BYU
academically (graduate programs), then graduate programs are not the main
reason.Here's some points to consider when discussing why most
people might value undergraduate programs more overall:1) How many
graduate students are there compared to undergraduate students?2) Where do
they get graduate students from?There are about 3x as many undergrad
students as grad students, typically. Maybe even more. Also, graduate students
were once undergrads (hence the term "graduate" student), and to be
considered a good candidate for graduate school, it makes sense to look into the
value of the applicant's undergraduate education.The fact that
BYU ranks very well for students to go on to graduate schools speaks volumes
about their undergraduate education.
RE: MyPerspectiveI don't think many BYU fans dispute that the U
has a higher reputation than BYU for research. The reason you have a few on the
defensive is because you have inferred that BYU is inferior academically, which
it isn't. Research is what faculty do when they are not
teaching, which at "very high research activity" schools is 99% of the
time (Note: there is no longer such thing as a "tier 1" research
university, that Carnegie Classification title changed several years ago).
Indeed, at many research focused institutions good teaching is even penalized
because it means you're not spending enough time focused on research. BYU does not have a medical school nor does it have dozens of graduate
programs like the University of Utah. It isn't a research focused school,
which was a major reason it was not considered for the PAC12. But it is
conceivable that there was some bias brought to bear due to religion. How else
would you explain Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech getting
invites?--they are all "high research activity" schools just like BYU.
BYU was not a great fit for the PAC, but not because of
@MyPerspective "What? Maybe you didn't get the memo...Utah got the
invite. LOL! "Yes, they did. And BYU is a higher ranked
academic institution. LOL!So I'm not sure what your point
is."Entrance standards are easy to change. Watch what happens at
Utah over the next five years. "Okay, I'll be waiting with
bated breath (roll my eyes). If the U's standards INCREASED when Utah
entered the PAC 12, and they still fall far short of what BYU's entrance
standards are, do U really think it's going to change dramatically within
the next 5 years? "However, byu is NOT a tier 1 research
institution...Do you even understand what that is?"Yes, I do.
And I also understand that Oklahoma St is also not a tier 1 research
institution. Which again raises the question that you have yet to answer: if
being a tier 1 research institution is one of the 'high standards'
required by the PAC chancellors and presidents to get into the PAC, then why on
earth were they going to invite Oklahoma St with Texas and the other Big XII
schools in 2010 BEFORE Utah was even considered?
@MyPerspective "Absolutely correct. Research and was also key and of course
athletics."I've already refuted the research
'qualification'. As for athletics, if BCS games are a requirement to
get in to the PAC, then the PAC would have invited BSU over Utah, and Colorado
would never have even sniffed a PAC 12 invite.BYU's athletic
history and legacy far outshines Utah's, in terms of football (more
conference championships, more national championships, more top 25 finishes,
more bowl games, more national awards, etc) and in terms of overall success.
Utah's run from 2004-2008 was a great run. Colorado's was terrible.
Yet the Buffs still got an invite to the PAC.And as I've
already shown, Utah has since displayed their 'athletic prowess' as
being equivalent to Washington St.Not good.
@MyPerspective "No, you are not happy for them. You are bitter and
disgruntled."Oh, okay. Thanks for telling me how I feel, glad
we cleared that up, lol!"Step out of Utah County some time and
walk around the U campus. I've spent lots of time at byu...they are not the
same."Exactly, which has been my point all along. BYU and Utah
are not the same, especially on a cultural level. Utah is a much more liberal
school than BYU. That doesn't make them better or worse than BYU. But it
makes them a great cultural fit for the PAC."You and I are
faithful members of the same religion. I am asking you to please stop using our
religion as a scapegoat for byu's weaknesses."I'm not
using OUR religion as a scapegoat. I have shown how other writers around the
country all know and understand that the PAC will never invite any
religious-based institution (not just BYU, Baylor was on the list as well). And
that's fine, that's who the PAC is, and I love that BYU is
@Wiscougarfan Thanks for the information, I didn't know that
the 'tier 1' research classification had changed.@MyPerspectiveJust in summary, I really am happy for the Utes.
The PAC is a great fit for them, and I hope that they are able to eventually
have success on an athletic level as well.But saying that Utah got
in because they are a better academic school than BYU, or because they are a
research university, or because their athletic prowess is superior to that of
BYU is complete spin and hogwash.I love BYU as an independent. I
love the exposure that BYU has gotten since going independent, and the positives
that that is having for the university and for the LDS faith.I think
it's great that Utah is in the PAC. It's a perfect fit, and it
automatically raises the reputation and stature of the state of Utah while
enhancing the profile of the University of Utah.I wish both schools
the best of luck going forward.Go Cougars!
truecoug1"...Exactly, which has been my point all along. BYU and
Utah are not the same, especially on a cultural level. Utah is a much more
liberal school than BYU." Actually truecoug1, what I was
referring to are the buildings and programs at the University of Utah dedicated
to research. You will not find anything remotely similar to that at BYU. Take
a stroll around the U campus, particularly upper campus where the hospital is
located. Observe the assets dedicated to advancing our body of knowledge and
quality of life (cancer, genetic diseases, new medications and treatments,
inroads in molecular biotechnology, etc., etc.). That is what research
institutions do and you will not see that at BYU. I know because I've
looked. Out of necessity, research programs generate graduate and
PhD fields of study which is exactly the reason, Wiscougarfan above
acknowledges, as does BYU and everyone else who understands that the University
of Utah is a research institution. And a darn fine one at that. Which, coming
back full circle, is one of the must haves Pac-12 wanted. Finally,
you are indeed using our religion as a scapegoat.
@MyPerspective "Out of necessity, research programs generate graduate and
PhD fields of study which is exactly the reason, Wiscougarfan above
acknowledges, as does BYU and everyone else who understands that the University
of Utah is a research institution. And a darn fine one at that."And again, I have never disputed that. I think that the U is a fantastic
institution and that it does some great research. But the whole point of my
initial argument was to show that even for all of that, and for the great
graduate programs that the U has (which the USNWR took into account), BYU was
still ranked as a higher NATIONAL academic institution than Utah.And
if a research institution was a must have for the PAC 10, then why on earth were
they considering Texas, Oklahoma, and OSU as expansion candidates BEFORE
Utah?You have yet to respond to that question.
WiscougarfanThanks for bringing common ground to this conversation. Your post: "I don't think many BYU fans dispute
that the U has a higher reputation than BYU for research....you have inferred
that BYU is inferior academically, which it isn't." Followed by..."BYU does not have a medical school nor does it
have dozens of graduate programs like the University of Utah." That's exactly the point. A medical school and dozens of graduate
programs is superior to no medical and few graduate programs especially when
those graduate programs are deemed to be of high quality. BYU does a tremendous
job with the programs they have particularly at the undergrad level, no
question. Research can be a double edge sword. You are correct that research
can detract from teaching, I've seen it. On the flip side, it opens
opportunities to introduce cutting edge knowledge into the classroom. "[BYU] isn't a research focused school, which was a major
reason it was not considered for the PAC12." Thanks. I wish all BYU fans
and LDS members would acknowledge that. Calling people "bigots" because
we are disappointed is hardly reflective of what we claim to stand for.
@MyPerspectiveAnd finally, I'm not using religion as a
scapegoat. U have stated that Utah's standing as an academic institution,
their athletic prowess, and their status as a research institution are what got
them in to the PAC instead of BYU. I have simply pointed out that
BYU ranks higher as an academic institution than Utah, that BYU's athletic
prowess and legacy is far greater than Utah's, and the fact that the PAC
was willing to invite Texas, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma St throws the research
institution difference out the window, since none of those teams are research
institutions and the PAC wanted them before Utah.So then what is the
biggest difference remaining between the two schools? One is a church-based
institution, the other is a more liberal university, which is much more
conducive to the PAC 10That's the perception of the PAC 10, as
evidenced by several national writers. Which is fine. But that IS the
perception.U can believe what U want. I'm done with this
argument. I'm happy for Utah and their situation and I'm happy for
BYU and where they're at as an independent.Go Cougars!
RE: MyPerspective"That's exactly the point. A medical
school and dozens of graduate programs is superior to no medical and few
graduate programs especially when those graduate programs are deemed to be of
high quality."We'll have to agree to disagree on this
point. I believe the "academic" prestige that we've been
discussing comes from the experience the students have at the institution, not
the reputation and research production of the faculty. BYU is known around the
world for producing students who go on to accomplish great things while Utah is
well known for the advances made by their faculty through the medical school and
other graduate programs. I understand that I am biased in these regards (as a
BYU grad) but there are many other measures that seem to support this
assertion... BYU is among the top 10 schools for producing students who go on to
law school, med school, dental school, and PhD programs. BYU grads are heavily
over represented in politics, education, and as small business owners (to name a
few). Meanwhile, Utah has several nobel winners on their faculty and have made
several notable contributions in medicine, engineering, and science. Apples and
WiscougarfanActually, I think we have reached the point where we are in
agreement."BYU is among the top 10 schools for producing
students who go on to law school, med school, dental school, and PhD
programs."The point is, those BYU students who move on to these
aspirations do so at other institutions. Why? Because BYU cannot meet the
needs you list (except Law - which according to USNWR is very good). So, if you
were a President or Chancellor in the Pac-10 and you were looking for new
additions with a reasonable geographic foot print to meet criteria of 1)
academics, 2) research, and 3) athletics...what would you do? Invite a school
that students have to leave achieve what they want? Of course not. That
isn't what the Pac-10 is about. Truecoug1 is right, Utah is a good fit but
not for the reasons he continues to assert.Btw...always enjoy
reading your posts. Generally fair and insightful. I assume that
"Wiscougfan" is Wisconsin. The Badgers...there's a campus I would
like to visit! Enjoy the BYU game, should be a great one!Go Cougs!
Re: MyPerspectiveCheers, I enjoy civil debates as well. Though
I've never been a UofU fan I did grow up in Utah and several of my friends
and family went to the U, often for the reasons you have cited. As I've
attended and taught at various universities across the country I've become
increasingly grateful for the educational opportunities available in Utah and
the unique atmosphere I enjoyed at the Y. I hope my children might consider
BYU, UofU, or USU when they leave for college. Go Utes! (and of course, go
"But I think Utah is a great fit for the PAC and I'm happy for
them." No, you are not happy for them. You are bitter and disgruntled. Step
out of Utah County some time and walk around the U campus. You will be surprised
at how incredibly wrong you are. I've spent lots of time at byu...they are
not the same.perspective,That comment is very insightful as to
who you really are.
Research and academics are two different things. To say a school is good
academically because of its research is like saying a school is a high research
institution because of its academics. Utah focuses on research; BYU focuses on
academics.This debate is very interesting and good points have been
brought up, but one question still remains unanswered:If research is
so important to the PAC, then why did they invite the schools mentioned such as
Truecoug, Insights learned from your posts:1- BYU is getting owned by a
"small time" football program2- Said small time program has more
BCS bowl success than BYU, not to mention other small time programs like Boise
State and TCU. Even "tiny-time" Hawaii has more BCS success than BYU
3- The Big East is a major football conference (WOW, check yourself on
that one Bro)4- In your imagination the BIG12 had an invite ready to be
extended to BYU. Please provide evidenceLets go back to your
original post that started all of this. You said, "it wasn't that long
ago that BYU had taken 3 out of 4 from Utah and the shoe was on the other foot.
Utah's got scoreboard over the last three years, but.... Two of the last
three wins were given to you on a silver platter."I've got
news Truecoug, Utah owns BYU over the past 20 years. To use you approach....
had it not been for the gifts of 98, 00, 01, 06, 07 and 09, Utah would own a
19-1 record over BYU over the past 20 years.
@U90Things I learned from your post:U agree that Utah is
a small-time programU still use beating BYU as your metric of
success. Wow...that's as little brotherish as it gets.I've got news for you U90. Boston College has owned Notre Dame over the
last 11 years. Do U think BC is a better, more relevant program than Notre
Dame?One more thing: U said in your original post that BYU had been
completely ignored by major conferences. I then pointed out that BYU had been
in discussions with the Big East and Big 12, thereby refuting your point that
they were 'completely' ignored by major conferences. I never said
anything about invites, and U didn't either. And the Big East
has retained their status as a 'BCS league' and automatic
BCS-qualifier through all of the changes that have occurred. Do I think
they're a great conference? No. But they will still have their champion
go to a BCS game this year.Enjoy your small-time program. Oh, and
keep comparing yourself to BYU. It's cute.Go Cougars!
Riverton Cougar:Actually the PAC 10 (12) never wanted Oklahoma State, but
would have taken them if it meant getting Texas. The best evidence of this is
that even when Oklahoma wanted into the PAC 12 in 2011 (Oklahoma is a tier 1
research school), the PAC 12 wouldn't take them if it meant including
Oklahoma State. Most reports from 2010 pointed to the PAC trying to work some
deal out with Kansas instead of Oklahoma state even though OU wouldn't come
without them. In the end it was about Texas, and the PAC would have swallowed ok
st unwillingly ONLY if Texas was a part of the deal.
True,The only reason a comparison to BYU was made is because a Y fan
is calling Utah "small time". Don't you find it a bit ironic that
you are hating on the same team your Cougars can't beat? Enjoy throwing
those stones from your glass house. Utah must measure itself against
PAC 12 competition which so far isn't going as well as hoped (.388), but
certainly better than BYU's record vs. Utah over that same period (.000),
and also better than BYU's record vs. the Utes over the past 20 years
(.350). Given those percentages vs. Utah I don't see why you feel the need
to put down the Utes.I'm completely happy if Utah can achieve
middle of the PAC status with occasional strong showings leading to a big time
bowl game. I personally wish BYU all the best, I cheer for them to make it in
to a big conference because it would make Saturdays in the Fall that much more
fun. I just think a pot needs to be notified when he is calling the kettle
@U90 Don't U find it a bit ironic that you're complaining
to me about trash-talking the Utes when YOU'RE the Ute fan on a BYU board
who has been trash-talking the Cougars?Utah has scoreboard.
That's fine with me. It's part of rivalries, they swing one way and
another. Utah has won 13 of the last 20 against BYU. Again, that's fine
with me. Utah's had the edge over the last 20 years, mostly by a couple of
plays here or there.So congratulations.But Utah is
small-time. U compare yourself to BYU and use beating BYU as your metric of
success because BYU is the top dog in the state. They drive the ratings, the
media, and have the larger fan base.And the Utes are viewed as
small-time outside of Utah as well, as I showed in previous posts. That's
not opinion, it's fact.So enjoy the scoreboard. But quit
whining about my trash-talking or "the pot calling the kettle black"
when U started the whole thing in the first place.If U can't
take it, don't dish it out.Go Cougars!
RE: Cougsndawgs"The best evidence of this is that even when
Oklahoma wanted into the PAC 12 in 2011 (Oklahoma is a tier 1 research school),
the PAC 12 wouldn't take them if it meant including Oklahoma State."
This is only half true. Oklahoma is considered "tier 1" by
US News & World Report, which gives that designation to ALL ranked schools
in any given category (approximately 200 national schools). Under that
definition BYU is also considered "tier 1." What the PAC 12 is
interested in is the Carnegie classification of "very high research
activity" (they quit using "tiers" a few years ago). Oklahoma,
Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, and BYU are all "high research activity"
schools, making them a bad fit for the PAC 12 profile. Now that didn't
stop the PAC from inviting the Big 12 schools so obviously there's more to
it than "academics, research, and athletics."
TC1,Go back and look at the timeline. Before I even came on here
you posted twice about (1) Utah being a little brother (2) Utah's wins were
lucky because BYU served them up up a silver platter. Who started this?I entered the conversation only to point out how flawed your thinking
is. First, Utah isn't behaving like a little brother (the Utes own
head-to-head, 2 BCS bowl wins, invitation to PAC etc.), and (2) if 2010 and 2012
were lucky wins for Utah then I guess 09, 07 and 06 were lucky wins for BYU...
see how that balances out?
@U90I "started" all of this responding to Clark Griswold,
another Ute troll on a BYU board who was trying to bash the Cougars. U jumped
into the fray and talked about how Utah 'owns' BYU. I
reciprocated.Not sure why you're still whining about that,
especially since U are the Ute fan on a BYU board commenting about how the Utes
own BYU.And I'm not arguing that Utah had a great run from
2004-2008 and that they currently own scoreboard. But if you'll notice in
my original post to U, none of that is what makes U the little brother.It's the fact that your fan base is less than half the size of
BYU's, your 'legacy' consists of a run of 5 years that resulted
in 2 BCS bowls (a great accomplishment, but hardly legacy worthy), and that U
constantly use beating BYU as your metric of success, and even tout that more
than your BCS wins.THAT'S what makes U the little brother to
@U90And sure, '06, '07, and '09 can all be considered
'lucky' wins for BYU if U want to lump every game decided by a TD or
less in that category.As I've mentioned before, that's
what makes the rivalry great! It'll be sad to see it go away for 2
years.My initial point was to show Ute fans who say that "BYU
can't beat Utah" or "Utah dominates BYU", and who apparently
believe that there is a vast talent discrepancy between the two teams, that
that's not true. Most of these games come down to one or two plays, which
is why it's such a great rivalry.The trash-talking is also part
of what makes it a good rivalry.But your whining about my
trash-talking makes me glad that we'll have a two year break from
'fans' like U, people who can dish it out all they want, but
can't seem to take it when BYU fans bite back.It's all in
good fun :) If you're taking it this seriously, then it really IS good
that the rivalry will be on hiatus for a little bit.
@U90And one more thing: I'm not sure what your point is with
"Utah has won 3 in a row" and "BYU has a .350 winning percentage
against Utah over the last 20 years".So?As I've
mentioned before, Boston College beat Notre Dame in 2008 to top off a 6-game
winning streak against the Fighting Irish, and Notre Dame has a .400 winning
percentage against BC over the last 11 years.Does this somehow make
Boston College a better, more relevant team than Notre Dame?I'll be interested to hear your response.Go Cougars! And
(trash-talking aside) best of luck to the Utes! I really do hope they can turn
the corner and compete in the PAC. Maybe this will be the year that they break
@WiscougarfanThank you for the insight. I know you are currently a
professor and your understanding of the designations and nomenclature for
academic status are appreciated. Your points certainly lend credence to the idea
that academics are selectively used as an excuse by the PAC 12 because a
potential big payout offsets their "high academic standards", ie, if
Texas had signed on, the PAC would have looked the other way at the lesser
quality research institutions. I wasn't aware of the current research
designations, so thank you for adding your experience and knowledge of the