SCfanclearfield, UTMy main point in all this was that God will
also judge, with the perfect knowledge, and it won't just be judging a
person on belief only, as so many other Christian groups seem to think. Peace,
in.8:50 a.m. May 30, 2013==========My brother was
raped repeatedly as a child by someone at church [LDS].As an Eagle
Scout, and after serving an LDS Mission -- He has fought drugs, alcohol,
and same sex attraction all the rest of his adult life.It has made
be aware and very "tolerant" of other people.He can not and will
not be judged by your met or measure.I feel grateful that GOD will be his
judge and not you, or some Bishop, or anyone other holier than thou bigot.It's not as Black-and-White as you think it is.There are as
many shades of gray as there are people in this world.For that I am
eternally grateful that GOD will be his judge and not you, or some Bishop, or
anyone else playing the holier than thou bigot.
Open Minded MormonBeing a Mormon yourself, you seem to be amoung
that group of Christians that believe in NO judgement is allowable, lest ye be
judged. However, we are not, as you seem to think amoung the "saved by
grace" believers. We have Bishops and other authorities who
"Judge". The issue is not about judging in the LDS Church, it is about
judging without either the office to do it, or doing it un-righteously. Parents
for instance have every right to judge the kind of people they may or may not
want their children to associate with. That is a part of their stewardship as
parents. Other people in the LDS Church also have such judgemental rights. My
main point in all this was that God will also judge, with the perfect knowledge,
and it won't just be judging a person on belief only, as so many other
Christian groups seem to think. Peace, in.
re: LDS Liberal on May 28Most Utahns have not grasped
"tolerating" diversity. No way could they tolerate tolerance!"You are intolerant by telling someone they are not welcome in your
neighborhood because they are different."Would that include
shunning/ostracizing them because they do not meet your ideal specifications in
terms of religion or any # of demographic criteria? "I can very
easily picture you at the very front of the line at the public stonings with the
biggest pile of rocks...."And now for something completely
different.... Blessed are the Cheesemakers!? Sorry. Could not resist.
SCfanclearfield, UTI don't particularly like saying this,
but from some of the postings, it appears that when the time comes for
Judgement, some of you might find God to be "intolerant". I mean, He
does have values and standards, rights and wrongs to qualify for his Kingdom.
And He will judge accordingly.======== Quite the
contrary...some of you might be completely surprised and taken back
entirely to find God is VERY tolerant.He judge's based on
one's knowledge and personal experience, demographics, time in history,
circumstances, etc..He even spelled out precisely how he judges --
By what met and measure YOU judge others, is how YOU will in turn be
judged [not the other way around].If God ends up being
"intolerant" - it is How he will end up judging YOU, because
that is how you judged others.You see -- If you want
mercy, You must 1st be merciful.If you want forgiveness, You must forgive.If you want to be accepted into his kingdom, You must accepting of others.If you want God to be Tolerant, You must be tolerant.Don't you get it?~ Peace,
I don't particularly like saying this, but from some of the postings, it
appears that when the time comes for Judgement, some of you might find God to be
"intolerant". I mean, He does have values and standards, rights and
wrongs to qualify for his Kingdom. And He will judge accordingly. Feeling
tolerant and accepting of all and any lifestyle or person regardless of their
choices, does not mean you are better than one who might point out the sin. We
the average person may not have the power or right to say who is or is not in
harmony with the Lords Kingdom, but I as a member of the LDS Church would
certainly listen to any man who has been called to serve as a Special Witness of
There are boundary's, limits and lines that you don't cross. there are
buttons that you don;t push Stuff you don't touch. There is a lot to learn
about life. I'm glad for the forgiveness I got for my mistakes.
Mike Richards was almost making sense here.... I agreed with his comments that
tolerance does not mean we need to accept, but rather respect others rights to
believe differently.... but then.... you knew it was going to happen"Obama is trying to redefine the word, "truth". If we don't
agree, we are labeled "racist"."really.... when has he
called anyone a racist? Please share this experience? What in the world are you
talking about. Where has he uttered anything about those who don't believe
as he does - is a racist. You really need to turn the shock pseudo journalism
off. It is tainting you life to the point that you see hate in every thing out
there.Please, stop, step back, and base your discussion of reason,
not hate filled emotion. You started out so right here.... Obama has noting to
do with this discussion.
Mike Richards, please reread LDS Liberal, Ranch, George, and Truth Seekers last
comments. And then read them again. And then one more time. And really try to
understand what they are saying. Take the time to think about what they are
saying. My two bits about your comment: try to remember that not
everyone believes in your religion. In fact very few people do, reletively. So
it's very hard to see why it should be a basis for public policy.
what a wonderfully tight little nest some make for themselves. "Gods eternal
laws are never changing and my interpretation of those laws is the one and only
correct one therefore I am right no matter what. No need to prove Gods existence
or that my interpretation of his word is based on his actual words and is the
correct one, it just is." Hard to argue with such a tight little circle of
thinking, not sure why someone would actually bother.
@mMike Richards;Sorry buddy, regardless what 1 Ne says, your
religious beliefs do NOT get to determine the rights and privileges accorded to
American Citizens.You're welcome to your beliefs, and
you're welcome to keep them yourself and let others worship (or not) as
they so desire.
Re:MikeRichardsProphets are mortal and therefore fallible.We are not told to blindly follow, but to seek our own answers to questions.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahDear Brother Richards,Although we rarely see eye to eye on political issues, Your
constant attacks on my [an others] faith, beliefs and testimony because I do not
agree with you, crosses over the 'tolerance' line. I am a
worthy member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints,and YOU
are not my - or anyone else's - judge.Your "my way or the
highway", "I'm always right, therfore you are always wrong",
"all-or-Nothing" extremeism is the perfect to this article.Thank You for showing us what ZERO tolerance looks like.Your
Brother in the Gospel.LDS Liberal
LDS Liberal et al,May I remind you that there are absolutes that you
cannot change, your flowery speech notwithstanding. 1 Ne. 14:10, "And he
said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of
the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso
belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church,
which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."
(Read the verses before and after verse 10.)So, the great question
is whether we believe the prophet or whether we tell the Lord that his prophet
was wrong.Eternal truth cannot be changed by any of us. Political
correctness and popular opinion are not part of the equation.When
God speaks, only fools argue against his doctrine.It seems that
there are several people who claim to know more than God and who claim that
unless we listen to them, that we are in error. The Deserest News would never
allow me to write the words that would describe them or their attitude, so
I'll simply say, "Baloney!"
MountanmanHayden, IDIt seems we must "tolerate" everything
in order to be tolerant![I can't help you. Look up the
definition of 'tolerant', and it's opposite -
'intolerance' it's right there.]
LDS Liberal,Can't say how it is there. Here in "the
mission field" I know good members who did not vote for Mitt. As for
recycling? My bins are full right now.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahTolerance does not require that
we accept someone's redefinition of the word "red" to be
"green". The intolerant tell us that they want special
privileges for themselves. They tell us that their new way of thinking requires
all of the world to abandon established norms so that they can be appeased.Are we intolerant if we disagree with those who mock us and eternal
verities?8:42 a.m. May 28, 2013----------- No, You are intolerant by telling someone they are not welcome in your
neighborhood because they are different.You are intolerant when you
won't hire someone meeting all job qualifications, but they have darker
skin, or a boy-friend.You are intolerant when you won't invite a gay
couple over to your house for dinner.Try reading the Bible, and tell me who and how Jesus dealt with those being shunned...even the
"sinners" caught in the very act.But your comments, I
can very easily picture you at the very front of the line at the public stonings
with the biggest pile of rocks....
Mr. Green, you misinterpreted the George Eliot quote: "The responsibility of
tolerance lies with those who have the wider vision."In
Eliot's view, if you are broad-minded you have a responsibility to be
tolerant. If you have knowledge and understanding of a wide range of social
conditions, you need to be tolerant.The recent discussions on
tolerance have urfaced since Elder Packer's talk related to legalized gay
marriage and going too far with tolerating immorality.Elder Oaks has
also focussed on this morality delimma. He points out that religious freedom
requires tolerance of other's freedom of belief, whether they be
Protectant, Hindu, Muslim, Sihk, etc. We must stand up for
ourselves, but also for others in our free society. Thus, tolerance is
essential in our society.
I'm a married, white, male, Mormon, born and raised here.Do me
a favor -- Tell people you either did not vote for Mitt Romney or you
think recycling is a good idea at church, Then come back and lecture me
about the "tolerance" here in Utah.[I could not BEGIN to
imagine being a Gay, Female, Catholic, Hispanic, Democrat living here.]
Years ago, George Orwell wrote about the Ministry of Peace and the Ministry of
Love. I suggest that Utah create a Ministry of Tolerance. It would be widely
"Tolerance" is actually a really ugly word. Let's work on
The only people afraid of tolerance are bigots.
I agree, there is a lot of intolerance out there. I remember when our last
president totally devalued those who disagreed with him on iraq. "youre
either with us or against is he said."where was His tolerance
then? sad.At local caucuses, one who doesn't agree with a tea
party like agenda is labeled a commie and belittled. Why? Just because I
don't think social security should be privatized? We see so much
intolerance and hate on the tv. Just remember back to the Mia Love campaign. In
it, how many ideas or solutions did she provide compared to the cheap attacks
against her opponent? I almost felt like I heard more about her opponent in her
campaign ads than herself! What about nationally? Rush Limbaugh and
Glenn Beck are constantly yelling and berating others in the radio. Absolutely
no tolerance there. Is what they say really supposed to promote a civil
reaction? Nope. They are merely trying to make money.Which is one of
our worst problems here in this country. Too many value money above tolerance.
Too money value gold over people. Too many value popularity over doing what is
right. Hopefully, this changes soon.
@mountainman So then when pastor Jeffers refered to romany's
religion as a "cult" and argued thart is why the GOP should not nominate
him you of course said nothing so as not to be intolerant of the pastor right?
Is speaking out against bigotry intolerance?
Whose law? When man thinks that it is "politically correct" to redefine
the law of gravity, just who is he fooling? Tolerance does not
require that we accept someone's redefinition of the word "red" to
be "green". They have every right to foolishly redefine words, but
redefining a word doesnot redefine the underlying law.The intolerant
tell us that they want special privileges for themselves. They tell us that
their new way of thinking requires all of the world to abandon established
norms so that they can be appeased.Obama is trying to redefine the
word, "truth". If we don't agree, we are labeled
"racist".The I.R.S. is trying to redefine the words
"fair" and "impartial". If we don't agree, we are the
"far right fringe".Many in Congress have tried to redefine
the word "honest". If we don't agree, then we are caught in the
world that existed before "situational ethics" were accepted by
government.Are we intolerant if we disagree with those who mock us
and eternal verities?
In the words of Karl Popper, "Less well known is the paradox of tolerance:
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend
unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to
defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the
tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this
formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the
utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational
argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly
be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary...."
The Open Society and Its Enemies, Vol. 1, Notes to the Chapters: Ch. 7,
Note 4I claim the need for tolerance of religions I disagree with
and am intolerant of those who would suppress the religious rights of others. I
claim tolerance of social issues and am intolerant of those who would use pass
laws prohibiting behaviors which cause no social farm beyond an offense to those
who disapprove of the behavior. I am intolerant of intolerance.
Maybe it's not same sex marriage that our letter writer is finding
intolerance on. Like me, maybe he wants to build a casino here.
There are many issues where defense of religious values results in out-sized
negative reactions. Sometimes those seem to seek the silencing of any who would
speak out - a chilling of speech. For the person of religion, the question of
how to maintain good relations with neighbors and community while not
capitulating on moral standards is knotty.On a personal level, many
of us are taught tolerance as a virtue. We seek to get to know the person
rather than see them simply as the representative of a political or moral issue.
But on a wider level, we feel the sands being pulled from under our feet by an
outgoing tide of decay. We wonder about how our communities and nation will
survive these changes.In all of this, respect is key. I associate
with many folks I respect yet disagree with. We are able to have good
discussions and disagree about important issues but maintain a civility because
we retain respect for one another. I would not seek to silence them. They do
not seek to silence me. We even seek each other out to better understand an
issue. Yet, we continue to disagree.Respect is hard but worthwhile.
" It is the constant attempts to enforce views that are contrary to what I
hold sacred ..."--- And yet, you are intolerant of
those who hold a different view than yours. Your "sacred" must be held
sacrosanct, thus preventing others from the benefits you possess. Your
"sacred" requires that others are denied their own "sacred"
because it differs from yours.This letter decrys intolerance, and
yet is the epitomy of intolerance.
It seems we must "tolerate" everything in order to be tolerant! Unless
of course you are the person or group demanding tolerance then its ok to be
intolerant. In other words, tolerance is so one sided in America. Just ask Mitt
If confronting the lies and deceit of those that actively seek to oppress others
through the force of law makes me intolerant then so be it .
I find it interesting that the first two comments assumed the letter writer was
referring to same sex marriage. Intolerance is manifested in a myriad of other
issues, but those promoting same sex marriage tend to believe that every
discussion, every article, every news story is focused on this issue. That is
narrow minded indeed.
"It is the constant attempts to enforce views that are contrary to what I
hold sacred that causes me personally to lose a lot of respect toward certain
people."And you passing laws and using the force of government
to IMPOSE your sacred beliefs onto others who don't share them is more
tolerant than what you belittle the other side for doing?If you
believe being gay is against your sacred beliefs, then don't get married to
someone of your same-sex. Nobody is forcing you to violate your
"sacred" beliefs in your own life an actions. Sorry, but your sacred
beliefs don't get to dictate the behavior of others who don't believe
as you do.
Last I checked nobody supports forcing you to have a same-sex marriage... (we
all know this is what you're referring to).