How strong can a sexual drive be at twelve years old?
Maybe I am more liberal than I think, but I dont think so. This is exactly in
alignment with LDS Church policy and it is great that our children who have gone
astray will have an opportunity to be exposed to real men and real boys. This is far better than allowing Gay Leadership in the BSA. Those who
think this is a sign of the times, I dont think so. The societal acceptance of
Gay Lifestyle is, but the welcoming of all children, regardless of handicap, is
how it should be. There are many LDS members who struggle with all
kinds of sin and we still welcome them to church and as members - none of us are
perfect. Only when we are worthy are we, or should we, be put in leadership
@banderson --"Their message is clear, if you are acting out on
something that isn't your nature, you are sinning"Now
here's an interesting statement.The LDS church acknowledges
that same-sex attraction is not a choice.And if it's not a
choice, then it is indeed "in the nature" of the homosexual person to
feel this attraction. Those are your only two options -- choice, or
nature.So, according to your own words, homosexuals SHOULD act on
their attractions -- because, after all, it is in their nature.According to your own words, homosexuals would be sinning if they did NOT act
on their attractions.
I'll support the church, but I, like the church, am going to sit back and
see what BSA does with this before I stop supporting them. In theory, this
could be a very good thing that could help "gay" youth get past that and
learn to deal with their issues in a manner more pleasing to God. In reality, I
don't think liberals or conserves are going to let it ever get to that
point. The boys loose out in the end. :(
The gay community doesn't care about kids as much as they care about their
issues, which is acceptance of something immoral. The Scouts are walking a very
thin line, something the gay community will only see as a way to eventually get
full 'acceptance' of the gay lifestyle. The church's stance is
thus: We know we have members who struggle with adultery, pornograpy,
homosexuality, dishonesty, abuse, etc; We welcome all of God's children to
come to the waters of Christ, but if you are tempted to adultery, don't do
it; if you are tempted to pornograhy, don't do it, if you are tempted to
homosexuality, don't do it. The church hasn't changed their stance on
the evils of Homosexuality one bit. However, all are children of God and as
such, He wants to give them every chance in the world to get it right. Their
message is clear, if you are acting out on something that isn't your
nature, you are sinning, and sexual sins are of the most grevious. The Scouts,
unfortunately, are just the latest whipping boy for achieving acceptance of
immorality. Patience. God is in control.
I feel this was the right decision made by the BSA. Boys this young need good
role models and friends that will accept them no matter what. If I had a son
who had same sex attraction I would want him to be able to have the same
opportunities as any other boy who doesn't have that issue. It's sad
to see anyone ostracized for having different tendencies than someone else. We
just need to be clear to teach them about chastity and not shy away from the
homosexual issues. There is still a lot unknown about this issue , but if we
just keep sweeping it under the rug it just keeps getting dirtier. People who
identify as gay are good people and have the same life goals as straight people.
They aren't all haters of religion, but because they have these tendencies
life decisions are much more difficult, especially if they are brought up to be
religious. We should be supportive and helpful in making good moral choices.
It's an issue that tests both sides of the fence.
This is really not a change. Unless the BSA added it in the past 4 years, there
was no requirement that a boy state, swear or otherwise affirm that he was not
homosexual. I have never known any troop, District or Council to ask if a boy
was homosexual in the past. I've started (chartered) at least 4 troops in
2 states, and never faced this as an issue. I also know that over 40 years ago
when I was a young Boy Scout there was a member of my Patrol who ended up
homosexual. We shared a tent sometimes. I'm quite sure that at the age of
12 or 13 he had no defined or chosen sexual orientation. How many 12 or 13 year
olds do? So, if you are aghast at the announcement, realize it is only an
affirmation of the policy that the BSA has always had.
David Gale,Agreed!I am LDS and accordingly I believe
certain things...I believe in recognizing one form of marriage. I
believe acting on feelings isn't justified by the existence of them, but
whether they are moral or not. I believe each of us face challenges with
feelings and at some point must learn temperance.We're all in a
fallen state, etc.We make mistakes.We're subject to
temptation.It's called being human, being subject to feelings,
part of our nature in this mortal existence we call life. "We believe that
men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's
transgression."So a boy has feelings. Welcome him, teach
temperance and virtuous if he will listen. Even those excommunicated from our
church can still attend. It's never about excluding but helping and
teaching.This isn't an LDS or Catholic issue, but those upset
aren't accurately representing the faiths they profess to believe in, thus
I intend to. Repentance is a path of inclusion, welcoming, and love.It is because I am LDS, welcomed into the fold despite my imperfections, that
I welcome all young men as Boy Scouts.
Why is it okay for a "faithful" LDS member to openly declare that the
Church is wrong on this BSA issue, including suggesting they will refuse a
calling to serve in the organization (a calling that presumably comes from God),
but it is not possible to be "faithful" if a member openly declares that
the Church is wrong on the Prop 8 issue in the eyes of the "faithful"
LDS posters here?What a curious observation.
I am happy the LDS church is on the correct side of this issue. The
BSA has moral standards appropriate for young people but nobody should have to
lie or pretend they are someone they aren't. We need to embrace our gay
brothers and sisters and teach our children to respect and love others as God
I'm stunned by these illogical responses. While trending is moving towards
accepting openly gay people into society, this should not be the basis for this
decision. Rather, it should be based on the moral principle that to discriminate
against any person who is different is wrong. Catholic and LDS teaching is
clear - discrimination is wrong! Our Constitution protects the minority from
the majority when it comes to civil rights. Leaping to judgments that there will
be sexual activities in scouting is naive. Closeted homosexual people have been
members of the BSA for generations. To bring this out in the open only helps
young men learn how to live honorable lives, whatever their sexual orientation.
Teaching exclusion and leaving those who might benefit the most from scouting on
the sidelines is counter intuitive. How many more suicides do we want to have on
our hands because of homophobic positions? No one is condoning any sexual
behavior, whether opposite sex of same sex orientated. Inclusion will do more
good for society than excluding. It long ago we naively believed segregating
blacks from white drinking fountains, bathrooms and bus seats was a way of
protecting our children.
"Being GAY is NOT a choice and for the Scouts to still be teaching
ignorance..." -Dubai Holladay, 1129 pm.For most of my life, I
thought homosexuals were deviants. I did my share of looking down my nose at
them, believing them to be sinners destined to be burned, as was Sodom and
Gomorrah. In recent years I have read so much about all kinds of medical
research into all kinds of conditions. It seems clear that there are genetic or
other biological reasons for all our conditions.I believe now that
same-sex attraction is natural and biologically-rooted. It is seen in nature
among animals. We see it among humans. Same-sex attraction comes in varying
degrees of intensity, as does heterosexual attraction. How the Lord
wants us to treat each other is not always clear (e.g. the black race). But we
should be open minded, which will help us be accepting and loving of all.
I will no longer donate, participate, endorse, or accept any calling requiring
membership in the BSA organization. The church needs to wake up before they are
dragged down the road of Law Suits from all gay activists' organizations
and all that they represent. The BSA in the days of President Monson's
youth is no longer the BSA of Today. Wishing it so will not make it happen. BSA
has chosen to go down a road that I can not follow.
@Fitz --"There is no biblical scripture that supports the
concept of homosexuality being acceptable to God"Actually, there
sort of almost is.In Matthew chapter 19, Jesus is discussing
marriage. At one point, his disciples say that it might be better not to marry
women at all. And jesus responds:"For there are eunuchs who were
born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by
others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of
the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
(Matthew 19:12)The term "eunuch" was used broadly back then.
Basically, it meant people who had no sexual relations with women. So, you see, even Jesus acknowledged that some people are "born"
eunuchs -- in other words, homosexual -- and that "the one who can accept
this should accept it.""My brother was a life scout and has
been in a homosexual relation for years with a guy I respect, so don't try
to classify this comment as bigoted."Unfortunately, many gay
people are rejected by bigoted families. Family is no guarantee of acceptance.
I was an LDS troop scout leader for a long time. It shouldn't matter what
the kid's orientation sexually is. I'm cool with this. I'm glad
the LDS church seems cool with it.
This is just the beginning of a slippery slope. The LDS Church says that sexual
orientation was never a criteria, while that may be correct, homosexual kids
were always very careful to keep their orientation to themselves. Over the next
period of time we will see sexual orientation to be more overt, causing
conflict. We will see parents keep their kids home from scouting activities
because there is a homosexual in the troop and they will have fears about such
associations. There will be efforts from homosexual adults to become scout
leaders, which will end up in court (regardless of the SCOTUS decision).
Problems will arise.There is no biblical scripture that supports the
concept of homosexuality being acceptable to God, yet the BSA maintains that the
Scout Oath's teaching of a scout's duty to God is still part of
scouting. Hypocritical would be the appropriate term. This decision can only
be classified as purely a concession to extreme outside pressure by a very
small, but vocal minority. My brother was a life scout and has been in a
homosexual relation for years with a guy I respect, so don't try to
classify this comment as bigoted.
Step two on the slippery slope. The first was even considering making a change.
As stated by some here the homosexuals will not be satisfied with this policy.
They want full acceptance for their deviancy.
the Church is caught in a pickle here. In the past 3 years both Elder Holland
and Oaks have spoken on homosexuality and membership in the church. Both have
made it clear that homosexuals are welcome in the church and are not denied ANY
privilege including temple blessings so long as they don't ACT on their
homosexual urges and break the law of chastity. I suspect that two homosexuals
or lesbians could live together and so long as they don't have any sexual
contact then everything is fine. So the Church MUST accept homosexual scouts
without hesitation since it welcomes homosexual members. I suspect the
percentage of homosexual 12 year old boys is going to be essentially zero but
you might find the percentage higher for 15-18 year olds.
I totally agree with Mack2828. I respect church response to BSA but do not agree
due to the fact that opens the door for other issues. On my part I will keep
being tolerant but never accept any thoughts or behavior that do not go along
with the Gospel, this is just the begginning. Keep up the faith.
As a Boy Scout Leader; the BoyScout Oath is that a Boy Scout will live morally
straightand the Boy Scout Law is that a Boy Scout will live clean in word
and deed and both fulfill Duty to God.
While philosophically I agree with this decision, it spells the end of Scouting.
Some religious groups will sithdraw their support. On the other hand, Gay
Rights activists will push for homosexual adults to be accepted as leaders and
the inclusion of gay . This decision did give the LDS Church breathing
space and time to develop their own youth programs. Scouting in Utah has a life
expectancy of only a few years now.
Sincere congrats to the BSA for finally getting it right. The momentum is there
and I know that this spirit of tolerance and openness will lead to a loving
acceptance of adults in Scout Leader positions very soon. It may be in the works
already. For those of you with sourpusses over this, I have one suggestion. Take
that frown---and turn it upside down!
@Albert --"Does Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind?"You should read up on what Sodom and Gomorrah was really about.Sins linked to Sodom within the text of the Bible include adultery, lying,
impenitence, careless living, wantonness, "filthy" lifestyle, arrogance,
haughtiness, "careless ease", and failure to help the poor and needy.Specific sins which Sodom is linked to in the Bible include: adultery and lying (Jeremiah 23:14)impenitence (Matthew 11:23)careless living (Luke 17:28)fornication (Jude 1:7 KJV)"filthy" lifestyle (2 Peter 2:7)lasciviousness (Mark 7:22; 2
Corinthians 12:21; Ephesians 4:19; 1 Peter 4:3; Jude 1:4)wantonness:
(Romans 13:13; 2 Peter 2:18)."Behold, this was the guilt of your
sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless
ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and
committed abominations before Me." (Ezekiel 16.49-50 NASB)Wow,
lookie there! A whoooole bunch of sins. Casting the first stone, are we?
Good first step....but the BSA needs to understand and recognize that
discrimination is wrong regardless of age. If it is wrong to exclude young boys
on the basis of sexual orientation, it is just as wrong to exclude adults for
the same reason. The BSA still has a long ways to go before I can once again
say with pride that I was an Eagle Scout. Today, I am still ashamed to
associate myself with the organization.
I'm Gay and I was in the Boy Scouts. My troop was sponsored by St.
Raphael's Catholic Church in Potomac, Maryland. Admittedly this was back in
the late 1960s to early 1970s, when the modern Gay rights movement was in its
infancy, and the prospect of Gay youth "coming out" was unthinkable. But
the fact remains that my sexual orientation was irrelevant to scouting
activities, and I imagine the same went for the majority of boys who were
Straight (i.e. heterosexual). The official Boy Scout Handbook was not
heterocentric. The issue of sexual orientation, one way or another, was simply
irrelevant.Gay boys and men have always participated in the BSA and
always will, regardless of the official policy. I'm just glad the when boys
in the scouts start coming to grips with a different sexual orientation (usually
while in their early teens), they will not be kicked out when they need that
social support structure the most.
Sexual orientation is of zero value in determining whether or not someone is a
good person. All boys, regardless of their orientation, should be welcomed into
scouting. Sexual orientation is as innate as being left-handed or blue-eyed.In less than a decade the ban on gay adults serving as scout leaders
will fall and soon thereafter you'll be wondering what all the fuss was
about. In retrospect it will appear silly.Life is more than sex.
Release your anxiety about sexual orientation and see people as they are.
To anyone opposed to this announcement:The idea of "morally
clean" applies to all sexuality rooted thoughts, not merely homosexuality.
It really bothers me to see everyone saying gay men and women are somehow
automatically sexually deviant. Just because a person is heterosexual, it does
not mean he/she is somehow exempt from being immoral. Yet, anti-gay thinkers
have successfully hung the label of 'morally unclean' on those who
identify themselves as homosexual. Moral cleanliness is a matter of behavior,
not a state of being. Everyone has the right to prove themselves
able to uphold a standard of behavior before they are found guilty.
There is a difference between allowing gay membership in the BSA versus with
open arms welcoming open homosexuals into its ranks, that instead should be much
like the previous military rule of "Don't ask, Don't tell."
This is a slippery moral slope and gay proponents already vowed to continue the
fight to the next step of allowing adult leadership. After all, these kids will
grow up and become adults, and then what, they are expected to sit on their
hands and not push for adult leadership approval for open gays? Another genie is
out of the bottle but there is always another bottle. The US is in deep moral
trouble as about a 60% average are for gay this, that, and everything. Does
Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind?
I view this as a triumph for the free market. As I understand it, a number of
businesses decided it was in their economic interest to adopt non-discrimination
policies for their charitable giving. They asked the Scouts to reconsider their
sexual orientation policies in order to continue to receive charitable
donations. The Scouts, acting in their economic self-interest, did so.
Isn't that the way the market is supposed to function?
I have tried particularly hard to make this a civil and thoughtful post in hopes
that it can somehow be approved by the editors and get posted.Here
are my views on this issue: Nobody is "gay." Some people feel desires to
engage in sexual relations with those of the opposite sex. These desires come
from the evil one and if acted on are sin.I believe the BSA (and all
of us) should be loving towards every young man and have the courage to teach
every young man the timeless value that sex with someone of your same gender is
not morally straight. When the BSA argued before the supreme court in 2000 they
testified that that was one of their "core values." Today they decided
that it is no longer so.I wasn't allowed to vote today, but I can
vote with my wallet and my time. I will no longer give any money to friends of
scouting or volunteer to work for the BSA in any way. I WILL
continue to treat all people with love and respect and I will work in other ways
to help young men learn timeless values.
To my fellow members of the LDS Church who are complaining about the BSA, please
remember...The LDS Church welcomes members who struggle with
same-gender orientation.The LDS Church teaches all members to live
according to certain principles.The BSA is only doing the same as we
have been doing. Youth struggle with feelings, confused or not, straight or not.
We still welcome them to Sunday School, young men's, ward camp-outs, and to
sacrament meeting.We do not welcome sin, but we are also commanded
not to cast out a sinner. We are all sinners at some point in some way. If we
turn a boy away simply for having feelings, especially one who chooses not to
act on them, then where do we stand?I marvel when I see some LDS
parents take no measures to protect their children from the online world when
they themselves once struggled for years because of the same lack of
protections.When we will not help our youth (whatever their
feelings), though their consequences be their own, we will have brought
consequences on our own heads. The gospel is one of repentance, not exclusion.
Let's forget the religious and philosophical arguments for a moment and
talk about this in practice... Does any parent want their son to go camping with
girls? I assume most parents would say no... okay, then why? Is it because of
the potentiality of sexual conduct between boys and girls on the camping trip?
Would a parent feel different if the girl joining the camping trip was not
sexually involved with their son or any other boy? So does this change if a boy
has the same sexual orientation as a girl. He may not be acting on his
impulses, but neither is the girl... so do we open the door to girls too? Oh
wait, I guess some would argue that its different because in one case the
attraction is mutual (boy-girl scenario) while the other is one way (boy-boy
scenario). I don't think it really makes a difference. In practice this
policy makes no sense.
First of all, nobody IS Gay. There are just people who do homosexual things and
it is still considered wrong even by those leaders voting to allow Scouts with
same-sex attraction issues to participate in Scouting. If a young man acts on
his inclinations, however, he will be expelled from the BSA post haste, because
the Scout Law says he must be "Morally Straight." And THAT presents the
problem. Boys sleeping next to each other in a confined tent on a camp out may
be tempted to push the limits. And this is why the policy should not have been
changed. There are going to be problems. And decent families will likely be
pulling their boys out of Troops as they hear of "awkward encounters."
I'm not sure how I feel about the decision one way or the other. A 60
percent approval of the change still leaves a lot of no votes. It will be
interesting to see how this works out. The only thing for sure is the so called
activists are not finished, they have just started.
It's about time...Being GAY is NOT a choice and for the Scouts to still be
teaching ignorance, hatred and intolerance to other kids is a shame. This is not
part of the diabolical homosexual agenda(who makes this stuff up?) Love is all
around us, so why all the hate from Adults? I don't understand it, children
are not born with Hate or Intolerance they learn it from Parents, Teachers and
Preachers. I was born and raised in Utah and I never felt all the Hate that
I'm seeing now. Wake up, Utah this should not be who you are.
I agree that this really doesn't change anything with regard to Church
policy.However, I strongly believe that the Church was absolutely
right in regard to Prop 8 and the definition of "marriage."And it
disturbs me that ever since California and Prop 8 the Church has been pretty
quiet in other campaigns redefining "marriage" across the States.
It's a shame it has taken this long to show boys who happen to be gay that
they are worthy of being included in activities that are wholesome and
uplifting. If people really believed all their propaganda about "hating the
sin and loving the sinner", this inclusion would have happened long ago.It's important that young men have the ability to have good role
models and to understand that they need not act upon their feelings, just
because society seems to believe they should or that they will, but choose a
more noble path.If we are to be truly Christ-like, then we need to
stop judging others for their perceived sins or actions and start loving them
for their potential as worthwhile and righteous children of God.I am
proud to see the LDS Church growing to include those who truly need a moral
compass in their lives, and to help teach them that Christ loves all his sheep,
not just those with the whitest wool.
"The BSA has always accepted all youth who are committed to do their best to
do their duty to God, country, fellow men, live up to the Scout law and who
commit to keep themselves physically strong, mentally awake and morally
straight."Actually, the Boy Scouts of America allowed racial
segregation through the 1970s in Southern and Southwestern councils. It is
important to acknowledge the real history of all organizations, not mythology
that whitewashes what occurred in the past.
Go Big Blue!!! sez: " Not only is it the right answer, it is in tune with
the LDS General Authorities. And that is good enough for me."This may be true, but no one really knows what God thinks about the gay
issues. What we DO know is God doesn't base His decisions on
getting/losing votes, getting/losing members/dollars in a church, being
"politically correct", or making changes based on a human majority.I've got to go with Mother Nature .... at this time, It's
impossible for human gays to reproduce naturally.
Not only is it the right answer, it is in tune with the LDS General Authorities.
And that is good enough for me.
This is a good idea. At least within the Church, both Sacramental-worthiness
and Scouting participation with be intertwined. The Church teaching no
homosexual activity whatsoever (not just no homosexual sex). They'll do
well on enforcing that as they currently do. The boys will be given their
agency, but all will suffer the consequences, whether gay or straight.
I am shocked, no stunned, no confused, all of the above! But I am sure that
church leaders took it to the Lord, but it is worrisome to me, But who am I to
question my Savior who died for ALL of our sins!
This is the right move, kids with conflicted sexual feelings should be welcomed
in a nurturing environment where good role models can be found and a persons
identity is the sum of many attributes, not just one- If the policy goes further
to include homosexual adults I wouldn't think twice about distancing myself
and my kids from scouts.
I've been involved with Scouting in Utah for decades. I have been involved
in Woodbadge Scoutmaster training for over 20 years. I have taught Youth
Protection Training to new Scout leaders. I never knew that BSA did not allow
youth to join if they had questions about their sexual orientation. Frankly,
most normal 11-12 year olds are just beginning to notice there is a difference.
There is no question regarding sexual orientation on the BSA application. Never
has been. I have never known any youth to be denied participation. As a matter
of fact I have always been instructed that LDS sponsored Scouting units invite
and encourage all youth within LDS Ward boundaries to register whether or not
they were LDS. The LDS Church always paid their registration fees so that all
could participate. The first I heard that BSA "banned any boy
joining Scouts" was when I saw it on the news. I didn't believe it
then and it still has not been my experience despite hearing it repeated over
and over by the media. The "new" policy is nothing new. It is exactly
what has been done in every Scout unit with which I have associated.
BSA’s "change" upholds present standards and emphasizes
inclusivness. The BSA has always accepted all youth who are committed to do
their best to do their duty to God, country, fellow men, live up to the Scout
law and who commit to keep themselves physically strong, mentally awake and
morally straight. Morally straight encompasses a tremendous commitment to do
what is morally right including; no “sexual conduct, whether homosexual or
heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age”. Homosexual conduct is still
contrary to the virtues of Scouting. Same gender attraction is not
the same as homosexuality and youth should not be advertising their sexual
desires around the campfire or other scouting activities. Any youth who has a
same gender attraction, as all scouts in all situations, should be protected
from any hazing, bullying or harmful/embarrassing initiation, BSA forbids it. A
Scout Master is obligated to help scouts learn to do right, live the oath taken.
Counseling on moral and repentance issuess however are left to ecclesiastical
leaders and are confidential.I hope the 70 percent of leaders who
say they will limit or stop their participation will continue to full-heartedly
Currently serving as Boy Scout Committee Chairman and having been a Boy Scout
Leader in other capacities in the Boy Scouts of America for a number of
years I thought I would never live to see something like this.
Also, as a Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day - Saints living in
Utah in gives me consideration whether to remain in the Boy Scouts
Organization. It is true we are living in the Last days.
Wer,Don't speak for people you don't know.Good
The door is now ajar. The winds of society have blown open the door.
It's about money, and the homosexual agenda will not be satisfied with this
decision or even if BSA welcomes homosexual adults with open arms. This conflict
will not end in their minds until BSA teaches that any and all sexual
orientation is acceptable and even taught as such by BSA.