How much money does it cost to keep a baby on life support if it is born early?
Is it truly "viable outside the womb" if it has to have tons of medical
equipment to survive? No, it isn't.If 'capable of living
outside the womb' is your criteria, then it should necessarily include the
words "on it's own - without medical support".Making
abortion more difficult only puts more women in danger of back-alley abortions
which endangers their lives. But then, conservatives never really cared about
women in the first place - or anyone for that matter, once they exit the womb.
At that point, you're on your own baby.
Wow ranch hand, you've been on the ranch too long. Is any baby capable of
being on it's own? Maybe some animals, but not babies. If
you're pro abortion don't you realize at 6 weeks you don't want
to carry this baby? BTW, 0bama held up a "born alive bill" in Illinois.
The same thing was going on there except they put the crying baby in a closet so
they wouldn't be bothered with it and it stayed there alone in the dark, no
human touch, until it died. What have we become as a people? What
have mothers? who are supposed to be the protection for their children,
become?Imagine we're talking about snipping the spinal cord -
does it feel pain, one Dr in Texas was pulling their head off? It's so
horrible I feel sick to my stomach!Those who believe in a God, do
you really think he looks down on this with any feeling of love &
understanding? I hope he forgives us!
It's pretty simple. Conprehensive Sex edu + birth control =
While I don't disagree with the articles premise, I do agree with
RanchHands alterations to the ideas. The one thing I would add to RanchHand is
the idea that any policy that considers the ability of a fetus to live outside
the womb on it's own without medical support needs to consider that many
full term infants with natural births can't live once born without extreme
medical intervention. So it's the usual state of development that needs to
be considered along with special considerations for the life and health of the
mother. Guess what that lands us pretty much where Roe v. Wade left us.
It's simply these new religiously led discussions that have changed the
conversation. Not medical advances. The medical advances are simply modern
ways to deal with the special circumstances. Nothing has changed in the
development of a fetus. A heart can beat long after death has occurred and a
heart can beat all by its self in a petrie dish, and pain certainly is a
subjective concept without full brain development. Heart beats, and pain
discussions are simply masks for religious values.
When I read comments on here from people defending the killing of unborn babies,
I think there is no hope for the human race.
Re:StarBrightThere were already laws in Illinois, which Obama
supported that protected infants even when they are born as the result of an
abortion. Illinois compiled statute 720 ILCS 510/6 states that physicians
performing abortions when the fetus is viable must use the procedure most likely
to preserve the fetus’ life; must be attended by another physician who can
care for a born-alive infant; and must "exercise the same degree of
professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the
child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a
child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination which was not an
abortion." Failure to do any of the above is considered a felony
A few days ago this paper ran a letter stating that there should never be
government welfare. This paper has also run several articles slamming on
Obamacare and the requirement that individuals have health insurance.Ranchhand - whether you agree with his post or not - raises some very valid
questions. When we are not willing to provide food for children living in
poverty, why should anyone think we will be willing to provide medical care for
a child? Heck, we don't want to have to help pay for birth control to
prevent a pregnancy and you really think people are going to pay even more once
a baby is born?@ Star Bright: Illinois has had a "born
alive" law for a very long time - the one Obama voted against would have
added uncertainties and vagueness to an issue that was already well defined -
making it harder to enforce the law and protect those who survive an abortion
Rape, Incest, Life and Health of the woman, and viablity of the fitus - to be
decided by the Woman, her Dotctor, her family and her clergy.To everyone
else -- It's NONE of your businesses.The zero tolerence
extremeist position of "no abortion ever, not under any circumstances"
by the radical right would force a vicitms of rape and incest to make lemonade
from lemons, or believe "legitimate" rapes will end by spontaneous
abortion.They would also criminalize a Doctor for performing a
D&C [Dilation and Curettage - a commmon procedure for miscarriages], or
emergency partial birth during delivery [common for still births, and saving the
Life of the Woman when necessary].I stand with the LDS Church's
allowance for choice in these sensitive matters, and stand opposed to the
radical right and the GOP's death sentance and punishment of women.As for Dr. Gosnell?He's a murderer, he broke the law, and is
going to jail.
It's interesting that states would try to use the "baby can feel
pain" argument to ban abortions after 12 weeks, but when a baby is coming
around weeks 20-24 (the grayest area), the specific decision as to whether to
abort the baby or not is about the child's pain. In other words, they are
likely to die, even with all the advances in modern neo-natal care. In the
meantime, they will experience a tremendous amount of pain that could be spared.
It's like putting someone through chemo with only a 2% chance of
Why don't we apply RanchHand's standard to everyone? Those who
can't survive without medical assistance are subject to be killed. That
should knock out most of the elderly and disabled people in the US. Come to
think of it, it would apply to a lot of people who just get sick. If you have
pneumonia, for example, you may not be "viable" without outside medical
intervention. With this handy new policy, execution is a practical and
cost-effective alternative to treatment!
"It's like putting someone through chemo with only a 2% chance of
surviving." Yeah, why would you do that, my daughter at age 16 went through
a Total Body Irradiation and Bone Marrow Transplant with those odds. Now, next
month it is 14 years later, she is married and has a beautiful family. OHBU
what a sick outlook on life. As for late term abortions, 80 percent are
performed on healthy, viable children, and healthy mothers. Progressives are so
flippant regarding the worth of life. "emergency partial birth (abortions)
during delivery [common for still births." A partial birth abortion is not
needed for a still birth, the baby would already be deceased. That would be a
delivery of a still birth. Partial birth abortion implies the baby is still
alive. A partial birth abortion is so the baby will be delivered as a still
birth. "GOP's death sentance and punishment of women," as opposed
to the liberal progressive death sentence of children. Why are liberal
progressives so concerned about the 20 year away birth of a spotted owl and no
care for the unborn children, because they don't have friends that have
killed spotted owls.
And what about healthcare?Who's gonna pay for all that premmie
medical care?The GOP and Republicans have been yelling from the
roof-tops that THEY certainly aren't willing to.Insurance companies
won't touch them.And most new parents are young, in college, and have
little to no money at all.BTW - that's the #1 reason for
abortions, the LACK of money.If Republicans truely believed
everything they said, they be FOR Universal Healthcare coverage, controceptives,
and assisting with life's necessities -- food, clothing and shelter.That would be key to reducing elective abortion.
jsb,I never said a baby should be aborted in such circumstances, I
merely pointed out that the decision is often made based on what the parents
feel is in the child's best interest. While it worked for your daughter,
and I'm glad it did, many people when faced with those decisions for
themselves, opt to not go through the ordeal and accept their mortality. For
every person who comes out of such circumstances alive, there are another 49
that suffered long and needlessly, only to die anyway. Many people in these
situations where the baby is coming at the late stages of "viability",
and I have met one such couple, have tried long and hard to have children but
due to a medical condition were forced to ask whether putting their baby through
such an ordeal would be selfish. I'm sorry you find my outlook on life,
where I consider that people in such circumstances face very difficult
decisions, "sick."I neither condemn parents who choose to
try to save the child nor those that decide it is more humane to let it go. All
I know, is it must be tremendously difficult.
720 ILCS 510/6: was passed long before Obama, 1975, to say he supported it is
disingenuous at best. When he was in the state legislature he voted
consistently against legislation consistent with federal law about the need to
provide care of children born alive in spite of the attempt to kill them. In
2004, Michele penned a letter supporting partial birth abortions and that Obama
was in full support. A method later deemed invalid by the courts.
@Star Bright"If you're pro abortion don't you realize at 6
weeks you don't want to carry this baby? "Some people
don't even realize they're pregnant until 6 weeks. "Imagine we're talking about snipping the spinal cord - does it feel
pain, one Dr in Texas was pulling their head off? It's so horrible I feel
sick to my stomach!"If you ban abortion there will just be more
of this. The nation with the lowest abortion rate in the world is not a nation
where abortion is banned, it's Belgium which is very liberal when it comes
to these matters (as well as giving birth control coverage to everyone via their
universal healthcare system). Banning abortion doesn't mean it'll go
away, it just means more extreme measures will be taken. Kinda like how that
Utah girl paid a man to beat her up to try and induce a miscarriage just because
she didn't want to go through the parental notification requirement.
Desperate people will do desperate things.
Maverick touched on a solution. The real advances being made are in our very
slowly developing healthier attitudes toward sex. Instead of thinking in terms
of sex being forbidden or dirty or for reproduction only, we need to embrace the
fact that people are engaging in it. Talk about it, bring it into the light,
educate people. Prevent abortions.
"BTW - that's the #1 reason for abortions, the LACK of money." You
mean its not for rape, incest or the health of the mother.You know
the final solution in Germany was for money. They started the camps as labor
camps. The Gulags in Russia, were for money. Progressives
don't have respect for any human life especially the unborn.
"It's non of your business, if they have abortions" Next it will
not be any of your business if they allow the elderly to die by not treating
them, terminate the lives of those they feel are not living productive or full
lives." What open minded (closed minded) is proposing is we should look
away and not condemn the child sacrifices to the god Baal or Molech, or the
To "RanchHand" how much more dangerous is a back alley abortion vs what
has gone on in the Gosnell clinic and other similar clinics that have dirty
procedure rooms and have KILLED women seeking abortions?To "The
Real Maverick" better yet. Keep your pants on until marriage = nearly 0
abortions.To "Don Bugg" lets take it even a step further.
How do you determine "viability"? Is it just the ability to take care
of yourself. Viability could also apply to people that don't think the
same way that the government does. How "viable" are you if you complain
against the government and want it to leave you alone. Obviously you are not
"viable" and have a mental disorder if you can't trust a benevolent
government.To "Open Minded Mormon" that is simple. Since
the parents obviously don't want the child, and the demand for infant
adoptions is very high, you stop the abortions and allow the child to develop
normally then adopt the babies before they are born and that way they are
covered under their adoptive parent's insurance.
Some of the 'conservatives' here seem to have liberal values on the
importance of life and the care for the weak. Some of the 'liberals'
are thinking of the cost of taking care of the weak and deciding it is too much.
I think we need new terms for liberal and conservative.Mountainman
-- bleeding heart liberal.
@jsfCenterville, UTYou know the final solution in Germany was
for money. They started the camps as labor camps. =========== They started the "Final Solution" to reduce Government spending,
specifically Healthcare costs - euthanasia for those judged "draining
the system" and not willing or able to contribute.The wording
"undesireables" was later twisted and expanded to also include:Abortionists, Homosexuals, Drug addicts, Liberals, Communists, the Homeless,
Immigrants, and Non-Christians. A regular Pro-Military,
Ultra-Nationalist, Patriotic, uber-Right-Wing Conservative Utopia.
To "Open Minded Mormon" once again you fail at understanding the NAZI
party and fascism.The NAZIs were socialists with a capitalist
veneer. The state controlled the corporations, yet did not have direct
ownership of them.It was a liberal utopia. All power was centrally
consolidated, welfare for the German citizens was spoken of as a right. Anybody
who disagreed were labeled "undesirable" and were taken into
"protective custody" where they killed them.The
"Abortionists, Homosexuals, Drug addicts, Liberals [libertarians not
today's modern liberalism], Communists, the Homeless, Immigrants, and
Non-Christian" were targeted because they did not conform to the NAZI
ideals.If you were honest, you would read about the promises Hitler
made, and how the people viewed him as he rose to power.Again, NAZIs
were hardcore Socialists that put up a capitalist veneer. They were everything
that you and the progressive stand for. In fact US Progressives supported
Hitler and Mussolini until the death camps started
Progressives work really hard to relabel their work and positions in
Germany’s history. I love how abortionists and liberals are now included
as victims in the holocaust. The list keeps expanding.H.G. Wells was
of the greatest influences on the progressive mind in the twentieth century.
“Progressives must become liberal fascists; and enlightened Nazis, he told
the Young Liberals at Oxford in a speech in July 1932.”The
progressives, who today masquerade as liberals; may rant against fascism; yet it
is their policy that paves the way for Hitlerism, said classical liberal Ludwig
von Mises 1940.
Last fall, Danielle and Robb Deaver of Grand Island, Neb., found that law
intruded in a wrenching personal decision. Ms. Deaver, 35, was pregnant with a
daughter in a wanted pregnancy. She and her husband were devastated when her
water broke at 22 weeks and her amniotic fluid did not rebuild.Drs.
said that the lung and limb development of the fetus had stopped, that it had a
remote chance of being born alive or able to breathe, and that she faced a
chance of serious infection.Mr. and Ms. Deaver decided to seek
induced labor rather than wait for the fetus to die or emerge. But inducing
labor, if it is not to save the life of the fetus, is legally defined as
abortion, and doctors and hospital lawyers concluded that the procedure would be
illegal under Nebraska's law.After 10 days of anguish, Ms.
Deaver went into labor naturally; the baby died within 15 minutes. Ms. Deaver
had to be treated with IV antibiotics for an infection that developed.Ms. Deaver said she got angry only after the grief had settled. This should
have been a private decision, made between me, my husband and my doctor; she
Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said doctors at University Hospital Galway
in western Ireland determined she was miscarrying within hours of her
hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said over the next three
days, doctors refused their requests for an abortion to combat her surging pain
and fading health.The hospital declined to say whether doctors
believed Halappanavar's blood poisoning could have been reversed had she
received an abortion rather than waiting for the fetus to die on its own. In a
statement, it described its own investigation into the death, and a parallel
probe by the government's Health Service Executive, as "standard
practice" whenever a pregnant woman dies in a hospital. Ireland's constitution officially bans abortion, but a 1992 Supreme Court
ruling found the procedure should be legalized for situations when the
woman's life is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. Five governments
since have refused to pass a law resolving the confusion, leaving Irish
hospitals reluctant to terminate pregnancies except in the most obviously
Haha, redshirt and the repubs completely fulfill Godwin's law. You can
always tell with hyperbolic discussion has reached an end when you must bring up
hitler or the nazis to make a point.
Some in favor of abortion have said that pro-life people hate women. On the
contrary, pro-life people love women - the little women in the womb. Why do the
pro-abortion people want to kill the little women in the womb, and then claim
that they love women? Why do pro-abortion people claim to be for women's
rights and yet are against the right of little women in the womb to even live?
Pro-life people are for women's rights - the right of women in the womb to
live.Some have said that abortion is a personal decision. Then the
logic of that is: so is the raising of children. If a mother can kill a little
woman in the womb, then she can kill a little woman at any age. After all,
raising a child is a far greater responsibility than carrying one in the
womb.Regarding back alley abortions, why is it too much to expect a
pregnant woman to give birth to a baby, and give it up for adoption. Isn't
adoption better than abortion: the murder of little babies?
@jsfCenterville, UTProgressives work really hard to relabel
their work and positions in Germany’s history. I love how abortionists and
liberals are now included as victims in the holocaust. The list keeps
expanding.======== relabel history?Hardly - It was
in ever college history class. 1939 - Heinrich Himmler establishes
the Reich Central Office for Combating Abortion and Homosexuality
(Bekämpfung der Homosexualität und der Abtreibung) as part of the
Security Police (Gestapo). Josef Albert Meisinger, an SS colonel in the Gestapo,
is put in charge.And spin it all you like RedShirt -- Fascists
are Hard-core uber-Far-Right-wing.Also college level education.
To "The Real Maverick" you are really selective in your reading. You
realize that it was "LDS Liberal" or "Open Minded Mormon" that
brought up the NAZI argument.Why are you not going after the true
I used to believe that Republicans cared about life, including the unborn.. I
no longer do. When Republicans oppose measures that reduce the number of
unplanned pregnancies, oppose programs which benefit and protect children,
oppose programs which benefit families with children their priorities become
clear. We have the tools to greatly reduce the number of unplanned
pregnancies. I believe, as with same-sex marriage, civil rights, and cigarette
smoking, society can evolve to a better place. Through education and increasing
the availability of contraceptives we can become a society where parenthood is
undertaken as a deliberate choice, not by accident, and thereby greatly reduce
the number of abortions.While I agree that abortions should only be
used in circumstances of rape, incest, health issues involving the mother and/or
fetus and that late-term abortions should be exceedingly rare ultimately these
deliberations need to be undertaken between women and their physicians, family,
etc. Legislation can be a blunt instrument which might unnecessarily do harm if
not carefully constructed to give wide latitude for individual circumstances.