@wrz "Someone has to go without... and from the sounds of things it will be
the elderly." If you want the return of a socialist party in the United
States I can't think of a better way to do it. Game on!
Whether you know it or not, Mike Richards, your prescription for health care -
pure market - assumes the absence of market power. Market power is the ability
of a market participant to force a price, or partially force a price, to suit
themselves. As a humble consumer I have no market power, but HMO's (for
example) do. You guys are always assuming perfectly competitive markets - they
are mighty rare.
"People should not be denied health care because they can't afford
insurance."Sounds good as far as it goes. But, under Obamacare
the elderly will be denied certain health care even if they have insurance, such
as a bad hip or knee replacement. Obama told us early on how it works for the
elderly... 'just go home and take a pain pill.' And Sarah Palin had
it right when she identified the 'death panel' concept.Let's face it, there's not enough money in the entire world for all
to receive the health care they need/deserve. Someone has to go without... and
from the sounds of things it will be the elderly.
Look at how many people think that health insurance is some kind of
"gift" that a businessman is required to "give" his employees.
That is a lie spread by Presidents since FDR. A businessman pays
wages for services rendered. Those wages may be "take home pay", but
most likely, they include Social Security taxes withheld and Social Security
taxes paid in lieu of wages. They probably include Federal Withholding and
State Withholding collected by the employer and forwarded to government so that
the employee doesn't have to do that himself. They might include vacation
days and sick days that are paid in lieu of wages. They might also include
health insurance that the businessman withholds in lieu of wages. Health insurance is not a "gift" from the business. It is a benefit
paid in lieu of wages. FDR made that necessary when he froze wages. If a business provides health insurance, they provide it in lieu of wages.
Stop complaining because SOME businesses make it unnecessary for you
to obtain your own policy. You pay for health insurance either way.
One can often read on these message boards that "all life is sacred,"
which usually means that "all life is sacred till it's out of the
womb," or that "all life is sacred till we're presented with the
bill."If there is a right to life, there is also a right to the
things necessary for maintaining life - food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare
- otherwise this "right" is nothing but words on paper.From
the article: "Universal health insurance is a legitimate goal, but 2009
— in the midst of a major economic crisis — was the wrong time to
pursue it."I suspect that there will always be some kind of
crisis which will always make it the "wrong time." So if not now, when?
Can businesses ever be held accountable? Why are we blaming Obama
for businesses who desire to be cheap rather than provide for their employees?
Everyone needs health care and benefits. Everyone. Otherwise, we all will pay
for it via higher hospital bills, insurance, bankruptcies, etc. why aren't
businesses providing benefits? I see Wall Street hit a new record high the other
day. I see CEO pay has hit record highs. Are repubs still going to use the lame
excuse that these folks just don't have enough money yet to provide us new
jobs and benefits because they aren't making enough money? To me, this is
an indictment on the complete and utter failure of trickle-down economics than
anything else.Why are we blaming Obama for businesses being greedy,
cheap, and essentially blackmailing the American people? Can we ever call it the
way it is? BAD BUSINESS? Why don't conservatives ever hold
business accountable? Health care, immigration, bloated defense budget, etc. do
greedy businesses never have any impact on these issues? Why aren't they
being held accountable?To conservatives, it's almost as if
business was crucified and died to pay for our sins
Obamacare not about improving health. Nor is it about reducing the cost of
health care. It is about bringing health care under control of the central
state. A step toward the Marxist utopia.
@ patriotSo it's obama's fault that alpine school district
is unbelievably cheap and doesn't want to provide good pay and benefits?
Here's some advice for your friend: free market. Find another job or become
better qualified. It's not obama's fault that alpine school district
isn't offering your friend what they feel they're worth.
"It's the great moral imperative behind the Affordable Care Act
("Obamacare"): People should not be denied health care because they
can't afford insurance."Sorry, the premise that Obamacare
is driven by a moral imperative of universal health care is just false.The true driving premise of Obamacare is the creation of political power by
establishing government the sole provider and dispenser of health care services.
Yes, but the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy is medical expense. So even if I
give Samuelson and his followers here the benefit of the doubt, i.e. a weak
connection between health and health insurance (it's a stretch) there sure
as heck is a big connection between no insurance (and lousy insurance) and
bankruptcy. Michael Moore's Sicko is the the authority and lousy health
insurance (you know he didn't deal withi non-coverage but rather with poor
Mike Richard - The hospital still billed the insurance company for
the $22,000+. They had to. Otherwise it would be fraud. Yes, they had a
contact with the insurance company to accept the approved amount as payment in
full. Again - what insurances pay and what is charged are two
different things. The fact remains that a hospital/doctor MUST charge the same
amount REGAURDLESS of who the patient is or what insurance they have or
don't have.BTW - a typical hospital will receive on about 48-52
cents for every dollar that they bill out. As I mentioned before, government
programs are the worst payers (besides dead beats who don't pay their
bills) and private insurers are the best.
@Utah Soldier,Sorry, but my facts are correct. My last trip to the
dentist required a tooth extraction. I paid $150, which was a $50 discount, but
$90 more than insurance paid. When I had had my gall bladder
removed, the bill was over $22,000. Insurance allowed $4,500. The hospital
accepted the insurance payment as payment in full. When I asked them why there
was such a difference, the hospital said that they had a contract with my
insurance company and that the fees were capped. I had another operation at
that same hospital three years ago. Almost the same thing happened. Insurance
paid about 1/3rd of the billed amount. The hospital accepted the payment as
payment in full.
Mike Richards - you do not know what you are talking about. Hospitals and
doctors office charge the same amount NO matter the paying status of the
patient. They must charge the same amount, otherwise Medicare would be all over
them for fraudulent billing.What hospitals and doctors receive is
different based upon the payor. Medicaid / Tri-care / and Medicare (government
programs which typically constitute about 60% of the money received by a doctor
or a hospital) pay a lot less than Blue Cross or other insurance. Those with no
insurance (i.e., they don't have a pre-existing contractual relationship
with the hospital) are responsible for the full amount. The hospital will have
charity care policies that dictate when bills can be written off,
hospitals/doctors offices will typically give a 10-15 percent discount if the
entire bill is paid off in full within 30 days, and there are those who
don't pay their bills and it is considered bad debt.
My neighbor - a 12 year experienced office aid at our local grade school - was
told yesterday by her principal that her hours would have to be cut to 27 per
week due to the new Obamacare regulations starting July 1. She is going to have
to quit and find work else where. The school loses - the kids lose and of course
she loses. All because of Obamacare requiring Alpine School District provide
insurance to ALL full time employees. My neighbor DOESN'T WANT or NEED
health insurance since her husband has it but big brother government and their
IRS agents were quick to remind her that she MUST have it. Yes the new
'socialism' in America.... how does it feel people?? How about that
Obamacare!!! Have your insurance premiums gone down by the PROMISED 2000 per
year (compliments of B.Obama)? Do you see the OBVIOUS improvements in the
insurance system...after 4 years? I would dare say the vast majority of people
of both political parties would LOVE to dump this train wreck of a bill into the
nearest dumpster ... along with it's namesake!!
Finally some science and sense regarding health insurance benefits!
Doctors and hospitals have "multilevel" billing. They charge one price
for services when someone has insurance. They charge a much higher price for
that same service when someone has no insurance. Require doctors and hospitals
to charge the same rate, regardless of how they are paid. Require all people
who receive services to pay for those services, i.e, if you won't pay, you
won't be "served".Government is not the solution.
Insurance is not the problem. Personal responsibility IS the problem. We live
in America. We are free. That means that we are free to live or die based on
our choices. Insurance has compounded problems in health care. When an
insurance company underpays for services, someone who is not insured has to pay
extra so that doctors and hospitals can recover their costs. When someone is
given "free" healthcare, someone else has to pay more for healthcare
services.The solution is simple. Require people to be accountable
for their choices.