If we are so against people benefiting from wrong and illegal acts, then we need
to give up all the land that we got through such means. Or is strict adherence
to law only for other people?
"Fast food and construction (to name two) are highly dependent on illegal
workers.""I rather like having a porous border, actually. What we
need are more workers..."That's because some don't
want to have to pay their fellow Americans a fair wage. @Curmudgeon"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our
debtors."By your logic, ALL criminals should be allowed to do
whatever they want with impunity."Society, not God, makes the
laws regarding immigration, and it can rescind, amend, or waive those
laws."And some in society also can willfully disregard,
selectively enforce, and unilaterally and illegally rewrite the law, as Obama
effectively has done. And God says to obey, honor, and sustain the law.
Rewarding illegality hardly honors and sustains the law. "We
don't have a fence on the border. In the absence of a fence, laws are the
only way we have of protecting our border. Laws discourage illegal entry into
the U.S., just as a proper fence would, although not always as effectively.
Lacking a fence, the law is all we have. The law is our fence. Take away the
law, and you erase our border altogether. (Arizona Senator Sylvia Allen)
@Twin Lights:"If 'The borders can never be secured. We have too
much border...' then what do you propose?"Enforce E-Verify.
And make the penalty for failure to use, stiff enough to make businesses squirm
a bit. Illegals mostly come here for work... but we don't need their help
right now. We have millions of unemployed Americans sucking up billions in
unemployment benefits, much of which we have to borrow from China and elsewhere.
It is said Americans won't take certain jobs that illegals are willing to
do. That's a red herring. Americans will take any job if the wage rates
are there... And wages will always be depressed if we continue to let illegals
in to by the millions.And another thing that needs to be controlled
is issuance of visas. About half of illegals come on visas but overstay. We
need to stop issuing visas to Hispanics and try to get a better mix from a
variety of countries (except the Mideast, etc., with high consentrations of
Muslims). "I have no issue with better checks on those
overstaying their visa."And how would you propose to do that?
Alfred,If "The borders can never be secured. We have too much
border..." then what do you propose? Doing nothing seems both foolish and
unlikely.I have no issue with better checks on those overstaying
their visa.Agreed that improper use of unemployment benefits
produces negative outcomes. My point about illegal workers is that if we have
less, then demand for workers will rise and salaries and costs (inflation) will
follow.Also, that employers will not like losing a less expensive
labor pool. But for other workers, it might be a boon.
@Twin Lights:"I think the border can be secured but not simply with
more stuff along the Rio Grande."The borders can never be
secured. We have too much border... not just south but north, east, and west.
Besides, the borders are only part of the problem. Overstaying visas accounts
for aprox 43% of illegals here today. That part of the immigration problem is
hardly ever considered as an issue to be solved."Note that
employers will have some problems here."We don't have a
labor shortage. We have millions of unemployed Americans sitting home watching
TV. Some say the jobs illegals take are the ones Americans refuse to take.
That's baloney. If unemployed Americans had to work to put food on the
table they'd be willing to do almost any job. The problem is... they can
make more money sitting idle on unemployment benefits.
Twin Lights,I take your point, while still disagreeing. I rather like
having a porous border, actually. What we need are more workers--we have major
demographic issues which having more workers would help solve.
anti-liar,First, that scripture is about who are the true shepherds
or leaders of the flock. Nothing to do with residency in a country.Second, there is very little correlation between moving your family to North
Carolina and moving your family to the remote areas of Guatemala.Eric,I think the border can be secured but not simply with more
stuff along the Rio Grande. With required employment verification and high
fines for employers who flout it, we can catch a lot (not all) of those who do
make it through the border. A multi-layered approach.I think this
is the only way we can go forward - we find a workable mix of residency and
citizenship for those who are here but make sure the door is effectively closed
for others who would come (unless they come legally).Note that
employers will have some problems here. Fast food and construction (to name
two) are highly dependent on illegal workers. Getting rid of that workforce
(old workers will have status and there will be no supply of new illegal
workers) will ultimately raise some costs. But also should improve the
@anti-liar:Well, if you want to quote scripture, how about these?And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [from the
Lord's prayer, something you may not be familiar with]. . . .For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive
you:But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses.Matthew 6:12 – 15Wherefore, I
say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not
his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there
remaineth in him the greater sin.I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will
forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.D&C 64:9 - 10Also, a propos repentance, the proposed immigration reform bill does
require a form of repentance and restitution before forgiveness (amnesty)
occurs. Read the bill. It's too bad your prejudice blinds you to the
parallels. As for mercy not robbing justice, society does have the
power to dictate the terms of forgiveness for civil infractions. Society, not
God, makes the laws regarding immigration, and it can rescind, amend, or waive
People are so high and mighty when pointing fingers at the minor transgressions
of others. The law that the no-amnesty folks are so worked up about is a
terrible law in the first place. May we be granted amnesty when our
Creator asks us why we shut down our borders, despised the poor, and judged
others unworthy of the same blessings He gave us for free.
Brer Rabbit, Anti-Liar and many of the others have spoken true words in support
of the Mark Terran letter. It is difficult to see any
justification, beyond personal selfish wants of some employers, to allow those
that have broken our laws to be given a pathway to legalization even if they
must pay a penalty. It seems our Senator Hatch is having a tough time
distinguishing the wrongs in this bill.To allow this bill to pass is
a large step toward eroding the value of American citizenshipand creates a
mockery of all those souls who have become citizens according to the rule of
@Twin Lights"Money is personal property..." "...residency... is not a possession (we cannot sell it or transfer it to
others)."Maybe this will help you:Verily, verily, I
say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth
up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1) "And as a society, we have decided on whom legal residency may be
bestowed." And with solemn contempt, the nation's
illegal-alien population flouted that decision.No use denying it.
"[The kids] often have ZERO recollection of their former
country."That doesn't mean anything. A kid who grew up in
Utah, who moves with his parents to North Carolina, has no familiarity with
North Carolina either, nor friends there. And yet, they manage. @Curmudgeon"[Those] who think "amnesty" (synonym:
forgiveness) is such an awful thing may sing a different tune when they meet
their maker."And their maker also said: "Repent" --
which includes making restitution. And He will bar the unrepentant from
entering Heaven. You really have no right to "forgive" in behalf of
society -- because you are not actually in a position to offer an equalizing
atonement. Mercy cannot rob justice.
The best way to encourage Bad behavior is to not enforce the rules, in this case
the immigration laws. Legalization and non-enforcement will only make the
situation much worse. This "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" only
includes the Promise of enforcement. We have seen that before. Deporting 11 million illegal aliens has not been the real issue, but only the
talking points of the supporters of illegal immigration, and open borders.
Opponents of illegal immigration would like to see enforcement of the
immigration and border laws first. There is virtually no interior enforcement
today. Opponents would like the magnets turned off that attract illegal
immigrants, primarily jobs. However, politicians of each political party do not
want the cheap labor, which is keeping wages down, to stop. Politicians
won't even implement a mandatory E-Verify program. There are
reasonable methods to get seasonal agricultural workers, but "comprehensive
immigration reform" is not about that, it is about flooding not only the
agricultural and unskilled labor market, but the skilled as well. Employers are
always looking for ways to keep labor costs down. Cheap foreign labor is one
way, and probably the cheapest.
Correction sorry - the number of illegal trespassers in the southwest INCLUDING
California is estimated at between 7-8 million.Add in the rest of
the nation for the TOTAL figure.
IF 25 million illegal trespassers are provided amnesty; ANOTHER 25 millon will
certainly follow them waiting for their amnesty. They will be employed by the
SAME employers who now employ the first group of 25 million.Employers
don't want to bother with pesky things like workmans comp., payroll taxes,
etc., so they will just hire the new arrivals.BTW - don't pay
much attention to the "11 million" number the amnesty advocates toss
around, that number is way low! Amnesty advocates just use that number to
(hopefully)minimize the opposition to amnesty. California thinks they have
between 7-8 million alone.Why should we think the "new" law
will be enforced any better than the "old" law?
Twin Lights,We're certainly in agreement about children. I think the
notion of a 'truly secure' border is a chimera. Why misuse time and
resources to try to accomplish what can't be accomplished? The real answer
to illegal Mexican immigration is something that's essentially happened:
Mexico's economy is growing, and ours is struggling, which why illegal
immigration is so low compared to historical standards.
Mr. Terran and others who think "amnesty" [synonym: forgiveness] is such
an awful thing may sing a different tune when they meet their maker.Besides, no one is proposing unconditional amnesty. One may think the
conditions proposed for attaining legal status or even citizenship are too harsh
or too lenient, but it is sheer demagoguery to label them amnesty.
Anti-Liar,The bank robber example is not on point. Money is
personal property - it belongs to someone specific. Citizenship or even
residency within a nation, is not a possession (we cannot sell it or transfer it
to others). It is a status that we hold and, as a society, we decide on whom
that status can also be bestowed.Given your posts, I am rather
surprised that you know enough illegal aliens to know whether they are becoming
cynical or not. The ones I know don't seem to be so.Requiring
the adults here illegally to return to their home might not be cruel or
inhumane. But it is for the kids. They often have ZERO recollection of their
former country. Even mastery of the language varies. Their friends and
cultural touchstones are here.As to the children born here? They
are citizens and can remain no matter what as long as someone will volunteer to
care for them. They have every bit as much right to be here as someone who
traces back to the Mayflower.
@Twin LightsTo say that children should be given residency because
they were brought here "through no fault of their own" is like saying
that if a bank robber gives the loot to his children, those children should be
allowed to keep the loot since they received it "through no fault of their
own." The principle is the same. Frankly, illegal aliens have
become quite cynical in this regard. Many of them know that if they can get the
likes of Sen. Hatch to say, "We shouldn't punish the children,"
then ALL of them are HOME FREE. Requiring families here illegally
to return to their home countries is not cruel nor inhumane. In fact, it is not
even a punishment. If it is an inconvenience, or a disappointment, then that is
the parents' fault -- not America's fault.Illegal aliens
need to be given to understand that stealing residency and other benefits,
whether for themselves or for their children, will not pay. Children illegally trafficked here -- regardless of age -- should return to
their home countries WITH their parents. Minor children born in this country
should join them. The latter group may return here once they are 18, if they
"...we have millions of people who live here, who have businesses and homes
here, and who we can't deport..."That is false propaganda.
One, they very much CAN be deported. Two, they mostly will self-deport -- IF
they understand that they actually are subject to the law and to meaningful
penalty, instead of being virtually promised, by the likes of Obama, Shurtleff,
and Burbank, that they basically are EXEMPT from the law. There should be
regular searches, raids, prosecutions, permanent confiscation of property, etc.,
as well as deportations -- whatever it takes to inspire respect for this nation
and its laws, whatever it takes to encourage those already here illegally to put
their affairs in order, sell their homes and businesses, self-deport, and build
up their own countries.And most of them commit more than
"just" a misdemeanor in order to live and work here. And NO speeder is
allowed to continue to travel 100 miles an hour on I-15 in perpetuity. Just try
doing that, or try not paying your fine, and see what happens. False analogy
there. And American shouldn't have to compete with illegal
aliens for available housing. It makes home ownership impossible for many.
Mark is right. The Lady Justice Statue at the Supreme Court is blindfolded, not
to show compassion, but equal justice under the law. Amnesty, now referred to as
"legalization," makes some groups of people "more equal" than
others. All but a small percentage of undocumented immigrants are from Mexico
and Latin America. This amnesty is designed for Mexicans and Latin Americans.
Legalization also puts those here illegally ahead of those who apply to enter
legally. The initial goal is not citizenship, but legal status. To many
"legal status" might seem to be second class citizen status, due to the
political advantage that would come to Democrats, pressure for giving citizen
status would come forcefully and early. In addition to legalization,
the "comprehensive immigration legislation," S.744, not only includes a
possible 11 million who could get legalization, but over 22 million legal work
visas that would be given out over the next 10 years, total about 33 million new
workers in an already weak employment market. S.744 immigration reform, is more
about globalism, cheap labor, and racism, than justice.
Let's pass a law saying that those who rob banks are equal with those who
legally withdraw money from banks.
I'm opposed to the bill, but the very reason I'm opposed to it is the
reason it will pass. The immigration bill will be a great deal for Corporate
America and a lousy deal for American workers. That's a winning formula to
get anything through Congress.
Eric,I agree we cannot deport them (those who are not guilt of major
crimes). I believe for the kids raised here, citizenship must be the answer.
They didn't ask to come but this is now their home. They often have little
brothers or sisters who are citizens already. They need to know they have a
place in America. Otherwise we recommend them to gang or other problematic
lifestyles.For the adults, I am unsure. I think that giving them
permanent resident status would be sufficient once fines and taxes are paid.
Perhaps (and just perhaps) the penalty for coming and staying illegally is that
they will not get citizenship - but they will be allowed to stay, work and live
their lives.Obviously (and irrespective of any wider views on
immigration) the political solution must involve a truly secure border.I am still working on this. Your thoughts?
Meanwhile, here in the real world, we have millions of people who live her, who
have businesses and homes here, and who we can't deport. To shriek loudly
'They're here illegally!' does not constitute a policy. The law
they broke is a misdemeanor, a less serious crime than a moving traffic
violation. 'Amnesty' is just a scare word; not a policy. I don't
support the current immigration bill because the pathway to citizenship it
includes is much too onerous. That means I support amnesty. It's the only
sensible way to proceed.
If the government had enforced the immigration laws on the books, we would not
have a problem with illegal immigration. However, those in authority, for a
variety of reasons, have done everything but enforce immigration laws. The
current "comprehensive immigration reform" before Congress is nothing
but a warmed over version of the 1986 amnesty. Thanks to that amnesty, 11
million illegal immigrants decided to moved to the U.S. and patiently wait for
the next amnesty. No more amnesties!
Mark, it is my opinion that your words represent the way a majority of Utahns
feel about this issue. Parts of the bill, like status verification for
employment, better border security, enforcement and improving the Visa system
are on the good side, but it is very difficult to justify the pathway to
legalization that the bill allows for.It sounds like Senator Hatch
needs some clarification on these issues, too. According to his recent
comments, after all these years in the senate, he has trouble identifying the
good and the bad in this bill.
Well said. And count me as one who has MORE compassion for those waiting in
line at our Embassies around the world.