Published: Thursday, May 2 2013 12:00 a.m. MDT
Well said. And count me as one who has MORE compassion for those waiting in
line at our Embassies around the world.
Mark, it is my opinion that your words represent the way a majority of Utahns
feel about this issue. Parts of the bill, like status verification for
employment, better border security, enforcement and improving the Visa system
are on the good side, but it is very difficult to justify the pathway to
legalization that the bill allows for.It sounds like Senator Hatch
needs some clarification on these issues, too. According to his recent
comments, after all these years in the senate, he has trouble identifying the
good and the bad in this bill.
If the government had enforced the immigration laws on the books, we would not
have a problem with illegal immigration. However, those in authority, for a
variety of reasons, have done everything but enforce immigration laws. The
current "comprehensive immigration reform" before Congress is nothing
but a warmed over version of the 1986 amnesty. Thanks to that amnesty, 11
million illegal immigrants decided to moved to the U.S. and patiently wait for
the next amnesty. No more amnesties!
Meanwhile, here in the real world, we have millions of people who live her, who
have businesses and homes here, and who we can't deport. To shriek loudly
'They're here illegally!' does not constitute a policy. The law
they broke is a misdemeanor, a less serious crime than a moving traffic
violation. 'Amnesty' is just a scare word; not a policy. I don't
support the current immigration bill because the pathway to citizenship it
includes is much too onerous. That means I support amnesty. It's the only
sensible way to proceed.
Eric,I agree we cannot deport them (those who are not guilt of major
crimes). I believe for the kids raised here, citizenship must be the answer.
They didn't ask to come but this is now their home. They often have little
brothers or sisters who are citizens already. They need to know they have a
place in America. Otherwise we recommend them to gang or other problematic
lifestyles.For the adults, I am unsure. I think that giving them
permanent resident status would be sufficient once fines and taxes are paid.
Perhaps (and just perhaps) the penalty for coming and staying illegally is that
they will not get citizenship - but they will be allowed to stay, work and live
their lives.Obviously (and irrespective of any wider views on
immigration) the political solution must involve a truly secure border.I am still working on this. Your thoughts?
I'm opposed to the bill, but the very reason I'm opposed to it is the
reason it will pass. The immigration bill will be a great deal for Corporate
America and a lousy deal for American workers. That's a winning formula to
get anything through Congress.
Let's pass a law saying that those who rob banks are equal with those who
legally withdraw money from banks.
Mark is right. The Lady Justice Statue at the Supreme Court is blindfolded, not
to show compassion, but equal justice under the law. Amnesty, now referred to as
"legalization," makes some groups of people "more equal" than
others. All but a small percentage of undocumented immigrants are from Mexico
and Latin America. This amnesty is designed for Mexicans and Latin Americans.
Legalization also puts those here illegally ahead of those who apply to enter
legally. The initial goal is not citizenship, but legal status. To many
"legal status" might seem to be second class citizen status, due to the
political advantage that would come to Democrats, pressure for giving citizen
status would come forcefully and early. In addition to legalization,
the "comprehensive immigration legislation," S.744, not only includes a
possible 11 million who could get legalization, but over 22 million legal work
visas that would be given out over the next 10 years, total about 33 million new
workers in an already weak employment market. S.744 immigration reform, is more
about globalism, cheap labor, and racism, than justice.
"...we have millions of people who live here, who have businesses and homes
here, and who we can't deport..."That is false propaganda.
One, they very much CAN be deported. Two, they mostly will self-deport -- IF
they understand that they actually are subject to the law and to meaningful
penalty, instead of being virtually promised, by the likes of Obama, Shurtleff,
and Burbank, that they basically are EXEMPT from the law. There should be
regular searches, raids, prosecutions, permanent confiscation of property, etc.,
as well as deportations -- whatever it takes to inspire respect for this nation
and its laws, whatever it takes to encourage those already here illegally to put
their affairs in order, sell their homes and businesses, self-deport, and build
up their own countries.And most of them commit more than
"just" a misdemeanor in order to live and work here. And NO speeder is
allowed to continue to travel 100 miles an hour on I-15 in perpetuity. Just try
doing that, or try not paying your fine, and see what happens. False analogy
there. And American shouldn't have to compete with illegal
aliens for available housing. It makes home ownership impossible for many.
@Twin LightsTo say that children should be given residency because
they were brought here "through no fault of their own" is like saying
that if a bank robber gives the loot to his children, those children should be
allowed to keep the loot since they received it "through no fault of their
own." The principle is the same. Frankly, illegal aliens have
become quite cynical in this regard. Many of them know that if they can get the
likes of Sen. Hatch to say, "We shouldn't punish the children,"
then ALL of them are HOME FREE. Requiring families here illegally
to return to their home countries is not cruel nor inhumane. In fact, it is not
even a punishment. If it is an inconvenience, or a disappointment, then that is
the parents' fault -- not America's fault.Illegal aliens
need to be given to understand that stealing residency and other benefits,
whether for themselves or for their children, will not pay. Children illegally trafficked here -- regardless of age -- should return to
their home countries WITH their parents. Minor children born in this country
should join them. The latter group may return here once they are 18, if they
Anti-Liar,The bank robber example is not on point. Money is
personal property - it belongs to someone specific. Citizenship or even
residency within a nation, is not a possession (we cannot sell it or transfer it
to others). It is a status that we hold and, as a society, we decide on whom
that status can also be bestowed.Given your posts, I am rather
surprised that you know enough illegal aliens to know whether they are becoming
cynical or not. The ones I know don't seem to be so.Requiring
the adults here illegally to return to their home might not be cruel or
inhumane. But it is for the kids. They often have ZERO recollection of their
former country. Even mastery of the language varies. Their friends and
cultural touchstones are here.As to the children born here? They
are citizens and can remain no matter what as long as someone will volunteer to
care for them. They have every bit as much right to be here as someone who
traces back to the Mayflower.
Mr. Terran and others who think "amnesty" [synonym: forgiveness] is such
an awful thing may sing a different tune when they meet their maker.Besides, no one is proposing unconditional amnesty. One may think the
conditions proposed for attaining legal status or even citizenship are too harsh
or too lenient, but it is sheer demagoguery to label them amnesty.
Twin Lights,We're certainly in agreement about children. I think the
notion of a 'truly secure' border is a chimera. Why misuse time and
resources to try to accomplish what can't be accomplished? The real answer
to illegal Mexican immigration is something that's essentially happened:
Mexico's economy is growing, and ours is struggling, which why illegal
immigration is so low compared to historical standards.
IF 25 million illegal trespassers are provided amnesty; ANOTHER 25 millon will
certainly follow them waiting for their amnesty. They will be employed by the
SAME employers who now employ the first group of 25 million.Employers
don't want to bother with pesky things like workmans comp., payroll taxes,
etc., so they will just hire the new arrivals.BTW - don't pay
much attention to the "11 million" number the amnesty advocates toss
around, that number is way low! Amnesty advocates just use that number to
(hopefully)minimize the opposition to amnesty. California thinks they have
between 7-8 million alone.Why should we think the "new" law
will be enforced any better than the "old" law?
Correction sorry - the number of illegal trespassers in the southwest INCLUDING
California is estimated at between 7-8 million.Add in the rest of
the nation for the TOTAL figure.
The best way to encourage Bad behavior is to not enforce the rules, in this case
the immigration laws. Legalization and non-enforcement will only make the
situation much worse. This "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" only
includes the Promise of enforcement. We have seen that before. Deporting 11 million illegal aliens has not been the real issue, but only the
talking points of the supporters of illegal immigration, and open borders.
Opponents of illegal immigration would like to see enforcement of the
immigration and border laws first. There is virtually no interior enforcement
today. Opponents would like the magnets turned off that attract illegal
immigrants, primarily jobs. However, politicians of each political party do not
want the cheap labor, which is keeping wages down, to stop. Politicians
won't even implement a mandatory E-Verify program. There are
reasonable methods to get seasonal agricultural workers, but "comprehensive
immigration reform" is not about that, it is about flooding not only the
agricultural and unskilled labor market, but the skilled as well. Employers are
always looking for ways to keep labor costs down. Cheap foreign labor is one
way, and probably the cheapest.
@Twin Lights"Money is personal property..." "...residency... is not a possession (we cannot sell it or transfer it to
others)."Maybe this will help you:Verily, verily, I
say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth
up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. (John 10:1) "And as a society, we have decided on whom legal residency may be
bestowed." And with solemn contempt, the nation's
illegal-alien population flouted that decision.No use denying it.
"[The kids] often have ZERO recollection of their former
country."That doesn't mean anything. A kid who grew up in
Utah, who moves with his parents to North Carolina, has no familiarity with
North Carolina either, nor friends there. And yet, they manage. @Curmudgeon"[Those] who think "amnesty" (synonym:
forgiveness) is such an awful thing may sing a different tune when they meet
their maker."And their maker also said: "Repent" --
which includes making restitution. And He will bar the unrepentant from
entering Heaven. You really have no right to "forgive" in behalf of
society -- because you are not actually in a position to offer an equalizing
atonement. Mercy cannot rob justice.
Brer Rabbit, Anti-Liar and many of the others have spoken true words in support
of the Mark Terran letter. It is difficult to see any
justification, beyond personal selfish wants of some employers, to allow those
that have broken our laws to be given a pathway to legalization even if they
must pay a penalty. It seems our Senator Hatch is having a tough time
distinguishing the wrongs in this bill.To allow this bill to pass is
a large step toward eroding the value of American citizenshipand creates a
mockery of all those souls who have become citizens according to the rule of
People are so high and mighty when pointing fingers at the minor transgressions
of others. The law that the no-amnesty folks are so worked up about is a
terrible law in the first place. May we be granted amnesty when our
Creator asks us why we shut down our borders, despised the poor, and judged
others unworthy of the same blessings He gave us for free.
@anti-liar:Well, if you want to quote scripture, how about these?And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [from the
Lord's prayer, something you may not be familiar with]. . . .For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive
you:But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses.Matthew 6:12 – 15Wherefore, I
say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not
his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there
remaineth in him the greater sin.I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will
forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.D&C 64:9 - 10Also, a propos repentance, the proposed immigration reform bill does
require a form of repentance and restitution before forgiveness (amnesty)
occurs. Read the bill. It's too bad your prejudice blinds you to the
parallels. As for mercy not robbing justice, society does have the
power to dictate the terms of forgiveness for civil infractions. Society, not
God, makes the laws regarding immigration, and it can rescind, amend, or waive
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