At least as openly gay we won't have to hear about how many children Jason
Collins has spread all over creation and then listen to him complain about how
the child support payments are killing him.In reality, I recall that
he and his brother are from a great family in SoCal and he is probably an
honorable fellow in most ways, especially when compared with most of his pro
"It's simple. "Love the sinner, but hate the sin". The
immorality of the sin has been a contributor in the collapse of empires. The
American Empire is crumbling."I love how you refer to "THE
sin," is if two men sleeping together is the greatest threat to society
today. There's just no compelling argument that this will make society
collapse. I always chuckle at oblique references to decadent societies of the
past, as if things were going great for them until . . uh oh, gayness . . and
then they collapsed. I ain't no historian, but I'm gonna need some
backup on that.Conservatives just are perversely fascinated by
homosexuality. Take ESPN's Chris Broussard, for example. After
Collins' announcement, he made a statement that homosexualtiy is a sin, but
then attempted to soften his stance by saying that he also considers premarital
sex and adultery a sin.Why then are you just now taking the time to
make a formal statement, Chris? You've been covering sports for years,
where probably 95% of players deviate from what you consider to be OK in
God's eyes. You never saw reason to speak up before.
@ekute -- "Nobody is saying that he can't go to the movies
or a dance with his "friend", or that when he gets engaged or married,
that he can't send out invitations and buy an announcement in the
paper."Unfortunately, these things are still not possible most
of the time.He still *can't* legally get married, in most
states.He *can't* openly go out with his boyfriend in many
cases. In his specific case, as a pro sports figure he'd be hounded by the
press and gleefully "outed" for not having previously announced his
orientation himself. If he was a "regular" person, he'd
be 8 times more likely to be victimized by violent crimes than straight people
when he tried to go out. Gay-bashing is still alive and well.Until
gay people really are treated the same as straight people, highly visible role
models will remain important. Gay kids need to see successful gay adults living
their lives openly and honestly, and straight adults need to be reminded that
gay people are a part of our everyday lives.
It is his choice to be whatever he wants but please don't compare him with
Jackie Robinson. Different and accepted but by no means a hero..
@Badger55 --"Being homosexual is not even close to the
women's rights movement..."I agree that the gay rights
movement doesn't have the same scope as those earlier movements, simply
because the percentage of gays in the population is smaller than the percentages
of either women or racial minorities. Nonetheless, the *impact* of
gay rights is still very significant.Until we can no longer say that
gay people are 8 times more likely to be victimized by violent crimes than
straight people, gay rights will matter.Until we can no longer say
that gay people are 4 times more likely to kill themselves, largely as a result
of bullying and of rejection by their families, gay rights will matter.Until we can no longer say that gay people are treated as second class
citizens and denied the same legal rights and privileges as any other married
couples, gay rights will matter."It would have been near
impossible to hide your gender or race...."Right. And that lack
of visual distinction between gays and non-gays is one of the reasons why
it's important to have highly visible role models like Collins.
It's simple. "Love the sinner, but hate the sin". The immorality of
the sin has been a contributor in the collapse of empires. The American Empire
amazondoc--"And why shouldn't they?"You misunderstood.
But no one who has followed your prolific comments on GLBT stories
missed it.We all know...
Being homosexual is not even close to the women's rights movement of the
late 19th and early 20th century. Nor does it compare to the civil rights
movement of the 60's. This guy played basketball for how long without
anyone knowing he was gay? It would have been near impossible to hide your
gender or race during the women's or civil rights era. In today's
society, this is just not that big of a deal. Things like this aren't
newsworthy. If someone is being praised for being gay, then obviously it
wouldn't be that difficult to admit it. Heck, he will probably get
millions in endorsements for coming out. It is just not that big of a deal to
be homosexual even though it seems like advocates would like us to believe that
every person that comes out is akin to rosa parks,(can't believe a
commentor compared Collins to Jackie Robinson) or Susan B Anthony. They just do
"Every time a guy talks about their girlfriend, or announces a wedding, he
is also announcing his heterosexuality. Do you think he should "keep it to
himself" as well?"That argument is flawed. Nobody is saying
that he can't go to the movies or a dance with his "friend", or
that when he gets engaged or married, that he can't send out invitations
and buy an announcement in the paper.If he wants to have a
"coming out" announcement with his friends and family, ok then, but it
need to be on ESPN.
@windsor --"You'll not be surprised that anyone who has
followed your comments on low these many stories will be smiling."And why shouldn't they? :-)It is, after all, possible for a
straight person to defend the rights of gay people. Gay rights are *human*
rights, and those should be important to everyone. I was too young
to take part in the civil rights movement of the 60s, but I'm not too young
for this one. ;-)
There is so much wrong-headedness going on here, I don't know where to
start. Firt off, I generally support gay rights, but mostly I wish people would
learn to mind their own business and stop insisting that your own religious
views should govern everyone. Thankfully, our kids understand this more than we
do, and a ton more than my father's generation. Their reaction is
"What's the big deal?" That's how it should be.Regarding Jason Collins, let's hush the "hero" talk, OK? It took
some courage, and good for him, but are we putting him in the same breath with
Jackie Robinson? Really??? Read up on what Robinson endured and see if Jason
Collins is going to be hit with even 5% of it. That's a lazy, ridiculous
comparison.The whole "shower" thing . . just stop.
That's the argument of a junior high kid who has not grasp of how adults
deal with things. Such a complete non-issue, it's not worth the sentence I
just typed.This stuff will stop being a big deal when people learn
to care less about others' sex lives.
amazondoc--"What makes you think I'm gay? Here's a hint: I'm
not."You'll not be surprised that anyone who has followed
your comments on low these many stories will be smiling.
@Bluto --"We must all get on board or be labeled with a
contrived psychological disorder, homophobia."People DIE because
of that "contrived psychological disorder".Do you realize
that, in this country, gay people are roughly **8 times** more likely to be the
victims of violent crimes than straight people are?Gay people in
this country are also roughly **4 times** more likely to kill themselves than
straight people -- largely related to bullying and rejection by their own
families.Homophobia MATTERS."keep it to
yourself."Every time a guy talks about their girlfriend, or
announces a wedding, he is also announcing his heterosexuality. Do you think he
should "keep it to himself" as well?Gay people have been
forced to hide by widespread homophobia for too long already. Some day,
orientation won't matter -- the whole issue will be boring, and
someone's homosexuality will be as interesting as the color of their shirt.
But that time hasn't come, yet.Gay kids need role models. Both
gay kids and straight adults need to see that gay people DO contribute to
society and CAN be both open and successful. I commend Collins for stepping into
Oh please bring back the days when intimate private matters were kept
private.This is about a political movement, nothing more.Now
watch the wholesale destruction of anyone who disagrees with this issue.It's not enough, anymore, to have another point of view.We must all
get on board or be labeled with a contrived psychological disorder,
homophobia.We wish you well Mr. Collins, but please, just keep it to
yourself.And that goes for all straight people as well.TMI
@ The Real Maverick - I don't know why you would feel the need to turn this
political, but it was the Democrats that fought to keep slavery, used the kkk as
their strong-arm, fought against women's suffrage, and had a much lower
percentage of their party that voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964
Frankly, most people couldn't care less whether an athlete is gay or not.
If Jason felt that he needed to come out of the closet in order to
feel better about himself, I'm happy for him, but I'll save my
"heroic" labels for people who do something truly heroic, like going
into a burning building to rescue a child.
Information Overload, the admission wasn't for your sake or for the sake of
the national media. It was a precedent for other closeted individuals to
hopefully be confident enough that their own coming out will not negatively
impact their careers. It's not about announcing and flaunting anything,
it's about letting down a facade and being comfortable in one's own
skin around their peers. The real telling of whether this was a civil rights
success or not will not be immediate, I expect. I think it will be when Jason
makes a team next year that really shows to others that they can have job
security in the profession they love and excel at while no longer pretending to
be somebody they're not.
So which is it? Gay male athletes are uncommon and this a rare event? If this
is true, it runs contrary to the propaganda the liberal media has been pushing
on our society. If indeed, gay male athletes are a dime-a-dozen and prevalant
among us...according to the propaganda, what are we actually celebrating here?
The fact that he has publically admitted it? So what? Where is the backlash?
It's simply not there. The majority simply are indifferent to this news.
This has earned the respect of the media, and political leadership of our
country. who would have thought?
@baddog --"most people I know who married did not have the press
capture their orientation for all the world to see."That's
because heterosexuality is already widely accepted and boring. Someday,
homosexuality will be as well.@Tators --"It really
doesn't come across so well to claim to be a straight female..."And why should I care? I'm not that insecure. ;-)"being a woman yourself, she might very well be attracted to you."So? Why should I care if she's attracted to me? When
did attractiveness become a bad thing?Here's another
perspective to think about: women disrobe in front of male doctors all the time.
Why is this okay?1. The doctors are professionals;2. The women have done it many times before with no bad consequences;3.
The doctors have seen all the girly parts many times before -- you know the
doctor's quip, "don't be embarrassed, I've seen it all
before."4. There is little risk of sexual hijinks or impulses in the
doctor's office. Sound familiar?Also --
there's *more* danger in a doctor's office than in a basketball
team's shower, but women still do it all the time anyway.
@Danish American Being gay is not a lifestyle. I resent having a false
stereotype pushed on people and implying that you are a sinner because of the
way you were born. That way of thinking went out in the'90's. Try
turning your scripture around and apply it to people that judge good people and
call them bad. Woe unto them, says I.
One regressive political party is almost always on the wrong side of history. We
can only hope the progressives will drag them along and they'll eventually
As expected, numerous posts with a thin veil of anger, hatred and intolerance.
Couching your remarks in "so what," can't hide the fact that you
are--once again, on the wrong side of history and people more like Jason Collins
(and myself) will either have to drag your sorry carcasses into the 21st century
or let you shrivel up and blow away on the side of the road. Either way--as
Dylan would have said--Get out of the new road if you can't lend a hand.To Jason--ignore the hate. None of those who posted their poorly
disguised vitriol on this thread would do anything but fawn and ask for
autographs in your presence. Certainly they wouldn't dare to question
whether or not you belong. On threads maybe, but not to your face. Conrats to
you and I am so glad that this honor belongs to a man of your caliber.
If insecure men have a problem showering with men that make them feel
uncomfortable, shower later, by yourself - it's very simple.
@amazondocYou said: "When somebody announces their marriage or
talks about their girlfriend, they're announcing their orientation. Should
they shut up?"First, Mr. Collins was not announcing his marriage
or discussing a male friend. Second, most people I know who married did not have
the press capture their orientation for all the world to see. They were letting
friends and family know their plans in a much more limited way.I try
to understand Mr. Collins' reasons for "coming out." I can't
fathom them, except, perhaps, to seek validation from others who support his
lifestyle. That is his choice and I am glad we live in a society free enough,
for now, we can still voice our opinions and our orientation without
repercussion.For those who cry "homophobe" at those not
jumping up and applauding another gay man's admission, it's still a
country where we have the right to see things differently from the politically
Chris B,Are you the only one on the planet who is insecure about
showering with someone who is LGBT?Newsflash: Gay men and lesbian
women do it all the time.I wonder where the insecurity comes from -
from straight insecure men not knowing or from knowing that they didn't
know? Does it make a difference?Oh, yes, it's not the first
time that showering with someone different than themselves has come up in sports
history. Catch the movie 42 yet?
so if he stops being gay and becomes straight next year, does that deserve a
bunch of attention as well?
This was a business move by Jason Collins, nothing more. One last desperate
attempt to save his career and make some money. I doubt he is even gay, how
could we possibly know?Shame on ESPN and other media conglomerates
to make a big deal about nothing. Technically the guy isn't even on an NBA
So now Collins can say he is the best openly gay center in the league? He's
barely hanging on to his career as a mediocre journeyman. Obviously it will be
tough for him, but he will also have his day in the sun with this too. All the
libs, media types and politicians will make sure he's all over the news and
touted as a hero. To me, he's just another lousy center the Jazz should not
bring in when Big Al and 'Sap leave town.
I can't wait for the day when yet another public figure announces they are
gay and no one shows up at the press conference, while the the rest of us let
out a very loud ... yawn.It seems that announcing you are
"Gay" has become a badge of honor. If it's who you are then fine,
but don't expect the rest of us to applaud what, in my opinion, isn't
much of an accomplishment.I'm a heterosexual, enjoy the company
of women, and I'm Hispanic. Does that revelation deserve a newspaper
article or any notoriety at all?I don't think so, and neither
should Collins' revelation.
so what??...can he play ball? If so? Then why haven't I ever heard of him
and why is this news? Is he the only gay basketball player? No...Ameche was
gay and played for the jazz 10 years ago and everyone knew it then.....but no
one cared, except Ameche!
Who cares. Kid can't play so this is really a story about a bad has-been
athlete trying to hang onto fame any way he can.
For those who are LDS and pro homosexual, I sugest you read or listen to
President Packer's talk in conference about the tolerence trap. The church
says to love and care for gays not to promote and encourage thier sexuality.
Just because society wants to make things the norm, does not make it okay or
does not mean their is no consiquence of actions from God. I know many people
now don't believe in a God, but I do, I know when Christ comes again he
will "clean house" Danish American you said it just right. A lot of
things happening in the world are exactly what happened in the Book of Mormom
especially peoples attitudes.
@Danish Amercian "Calling good evila and good evil?......" You
mean like passing judgement on others? I am sorry you can claim you do not care
but the fact that you would post this bible quote in reference to this person
clearly shows judgement.
Amazondoc:It really doesn't come across so well to claim to be
a straight female, then immediately state that you'd rather shower with a
lesbian female than a straight guy. You're likely to be very misunderstood
by most readers... myself included. Some statements might be better off
unsaid.In answer to your question about why should you care about
showering with a lesbian if you're not attracted to her? Well, it's
because that being a woman yourself, she might very well be attracted to you.
And obviously being the humanitarian progressive that you are, you certainly
wouldn't want to hurt her feelings, now would you?
2bits,"I say IF the Boston cheerleaders draft you, or you
try-out and make the cheerleading team"There are male and female
cheerleaders at all colleges and many high schools. The males and female
cheerleaders are part of the SAME team.And yet the males don't
shower with the females.Why?There is no difference
between a gay showering with men than a straight male cheerleader showering with
the female cheerleaders of their SAME team right? Isn't that
what you just said?
"¶Woe unto them that call aevil bgood, and good evil; that put
cdarkness for dlight, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and
sweet for bitter!" Isaiah pretty much nailed it. I don't really care
if Jason is gay or if anyone is gay. That's there business. What I resent
is having it pushed on us and implying that if we don't fully agree with
the lifestyle we are homophobes or racist.
USAlover,Why can't you shower with the Cheerleaders? I say IF the
Boston cheerleaders draft you, or you try-out and make the cheerleading team...
you should be able to dress with the team. I seriously doubt you could make
the team.You don't see NBA fans showering with the team do you?
So why would you expect to be able to shower with the cheerleaders if you
aren't part of the team?Collins was drafted and made the team.
@baddog --"I do not care to read or hear about a person's
sexual orientation."When somebody announces their marriage or
talks about their girlfriend, they're announcing their orientation. Should
they shut up?Orientation isn't visually obvious in most cases.
Like Jason Collins, you can't ID most gay people by looking at them.
Therefore, it's easy for folks to think they don't know any gay people
-- or that there aren't many gay people out in society. That's why
it's important for gay public figures to let everyone know that gays ARE a
part of everyday life.@2 bits"John Amaechi played
for the Utah Jazz and was very obviously and openly Gay."He came
out after retirement. Check wikipedia.@Chris --"But
I shouldn't be showering with them right?"I'm often
amused by the insecurities that seem prevalent in men. If you aren't
attracted to another guy, why would you care if he finds you attractive? I'm a straight woman. I wouldn't want to shower with a
straight man, but I wouldn't care about a lesbian. I wouldn't be
attracted to her, so why should I care?
Gay or straight keep your sex life to yourselves. I really don't care or
want to know that stuff. This world is way over sexulized via tv, radio, movies
To "the old switcharoo":Why are you pretending to be the
only one who understands the intention of what another commentor writes?
Amazondoc brought up the term homophobe in a reactionary way when no one else
had. Also, why bring up the issue of whether being gay is a sin or
not? The article didn't, nor had others. Perhaps you're being a bit of
a create-a-controversy.phobe? I'm not sure what your religion is, but
perhaps you should read the part about judge not, that ye be not judged. I never once even insinuated disliking any gay person. I simply stated
the obvious fact that most heterosexual guys are more comfortable around others
of the same sexual orientation while in a locker room setting... a simple fact.
Is that really so hard to understand? If it is, you really don't understand
much about human nature in your make-believe world.@amazondoc:I never once said or insinuated whether you are or aren't gay. You
read that into it.I also never stated what his teammates should or
shouldn't do. Only how most guys in that setting would probably feel. No
Seems like a really nice, intelligent guy. I think he's a really good
"barrier breaker" in the same mold as Jackie Robinson. I wish him the
very best and hope we all become more kind in world and speech to gay people.Now please explain why he gets to shower with people he's sexually
attracted to, yet I can't shower with the Boston Celtics cheerleaders after
the game?Why is that double standard okay?
Getting through the article without a yawn was not easy.
I think one of the good things about Jason coming out is that it gives another
description of who a gay man can be or is. From all indications, he is a
well-educated/spoken man, a good citizen, a basketball player good enough to
make it into the NBA, a great team colleague, etc. etc......descriptions that
could be of any other man, gay or straight. What matters most? Is someone with
blue eyes better than someone with brown? A person's demeanor with his
family and fellow humans matters more than who he loves. Good luck to Jason
Collins. I hope his future teammates and fans will respect him for who he is and
just let him play the game he loves in a professional manner.
@tatorsYou do of course realize we can all read amazondocs comment
and clearly see they did not claim that anyone that is not gay is a
"homophobe", right? Maybe you should not base your arguments on false
premises that are so easily exposed.
I don't wish to offend anyone, but I do not care to read or hear about a
person's sexual orientation. I was raised that everything you feel or think
or do does not need to be made public knowledge.If such
announcements are meant to attract some kind of support, I suppose they will.
Personally, I couldn't care less what the types of orientations people
have. And, I suppose we'll soon have some NFL orientation announcements
soon.What category is next? Backgammon players?
Collins is NOT the first. John Amaechi played for the Utah Jazz and was very
obviously and openly Gay.This is not news.
@Chris B"I look forward to when everyone is gay, so then we can stop
hearing every time one of them ties their shoes and wants a pat on the
back."It'll stop being a big deal when somebody comes out
as gay when the day comes that coming out isn't met with scorn by those who
think homosexuality is a sin. Then again, this newspaper puts "Mormon"
next to anybody doing anything while being a member of the church (like survivor
contestants and heisman hopefuls... well... until the heisman hopeful becomes a
national joke of course... then the adjective disappears) so I guess
there'd be some areas where being gay would still be noted.
amazondoc,No they haven't caught his cooties.And if
I shower with women at the gym they wont catch my cooties.But I
shouldn't be showering with them right?
@Tators --"Why do you consider and label anyone who isn't
gay a "homophobe"? It actually makes you sound like some sort of a
phobe... perhaps a heterophobe."What makes you think I'm
gay? Here's a hint: I'm not. And I'm not a
self-hating straight person, either. ;-DI've never said that
"anyone who isn't gay is a homophobe". And I don't believe
that's true. Nonetheless, there are lots of homophobes still out there."knowing his sexual preference is naturally now going to make some
of them more uncomfortable doing so than before."Those few guys
should reflect back on the fact that he's been showering with them for more
than a decade, and the world didn't come to an end."There's a reason this athlete has waited so long to come out of the
closet with his particular circumstances."Yup. Institutionalized
homophobia."most straight guys are more comfortable in a locker
room being around other heterosexuals than being around a gay guy..."Back in the days of racial segregation, many white guys were more
comfortable in a lockerroom around other white guys.They got over
Quote: "Why do you consider and label anyone who isn't gay a
"homophobe"? It actually makes you sound like some sort of a phobe...
perhaps a heterophobe."Why do you have to completely
misrepresent what someone says? If you don't get that then there is a
serious reading comprehension problem. A truthaphobe?As a religious
matter, it's not a sin to admit you are gay. Of course, other people are
not under any obligation to follow my religion but my religion requires me to
love my neighbors even if they are practicing gay or otherwise shacked up. Nunya
To amazondoc:Why do you consider and label anyone who isn't gay
a "homophobe"? It actually makes you sound like some sort of a phobe...
perhaps a heterophobe.Even though his teammates have been showering
next to this guy for more than a decade with no problem, knowing his sexual
preference is naturally now going to make some of them more uncomfortable doing
so than before. There is such a thing as human nature that you just can't
ignore in the name of liberalism and supposed political correctness. There's a reason this athlete has waited so long to come out of the
closet with his particular circumstances. And it's not always just about
"homophobes"... as you call them. Whether you can relate to this or not,
the actual reality is that most straight guys are more comfortable in a locker
room being around other heterosexuals than being around a gay guy who may or may
not be assessing them as a potential partner... whether that's being
politically incorrect or not. Again, it's factual human nature. And right
or wrong, human nature just doesn't change as quickly and easily as
political leanings seem to.
Repubs, we are winning.This country is becoming more and more
tolerant and accepting. Just like womens sufferage, the civil rights movement,
and now this. Those who wish to live in the past will be left in the past. The
rest of us recognize the world is changing and we are progressing for equal
rights for all.
I'm proud of Jason for having the courage to come out publicly and face the
homophobes out there, who will still insist on spouting their idiocy at him. As
a public figure, he'll face a correspondingly larger reaction. Good on him
for stepping up and being true to himself.And Chris -- he's
been showering and changing with his teammates for more than a decade already.
If they haven't caught his cooties yet, they're not likely to be
infected now. Take some deep cleansing breaths and get over it.
I hope he respects the privacy of his teammates if they wish to dress and bathe
when he is not around.There is no discrimination there.Just as there is no discrimiation when a male coach of a female team does not
enter when they are naked.Simple biology.
I look forward to when everyone is gay, so then we can stop hearing every time
one of them ties their shoes and wants a pat on the back.