Comments about ‘2nd child of Pa. couple dies after only praying’

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Published: Wednesday, April 24 2013 10:16 a.m. MDT

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The Skeptical Chymist
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

The facts aren't completely in on this, and we should try to withhold judgement for a time. However, if the child's condition was such that it was obvious he needed medical care, then parole should be revoked and these parents should be prosecuted for manslaughter and gross negligent treatment of their children (or whatever the appropriate violation is called in Pennsylvania). Their children should be adopted by a family that actually cares for them. This is one of the worst instances of child abuse in the guise of religion that I've heard of.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

Another example of how taking too seriously (or literally) our scared books can sometimes lead to tragic consequences.

Religion can be a force for good but it can also utterly derange people’s moral intuitions, not to mention their common sense.

One of my grandmother’s favorite sayings - everything in moderation - applies equally to religion… maybe especially to religion.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Prayer can't heal people anymore.. This is simply a case of reckless and lazy behavior based on a false belief that all you have to do is pray and everything will be ok. It is too bad the child had to suffer the consequences of the negligence of the parents.

A Scientist
Provo, UT

I agree with Tyler D in principle, but think you are entirely too generous in your appraisal of the value of religion.

Any ideology built so fundamentally on superstition, as is religion (with few exceptions), has got it wrong out of the chute, and "good" is incidental to rather than an outcome of such nonsensical thinking.

Clarissa
Layton, UT

Faith without Works is Dead. No excuse for not using the help we have been given from on High, as in modern medicine.

higv
Dietrich, ID

Faith without works is dead. Can someone get a paycheck without doing his duty at work? Can you get daily bread without planting wheat? Thing is as it is impossible to get food without working for it just asking it is also impossible to get healed without the proper medical care.

suzyk#1
Mount Pleasant, UT

Clarissa - I agree with you. Something I think is important in every area is Common Sense and these parents don't seem to possess this quality. There are all those children and it makes me wonder how many of them have suffered unnecessarily because of the parents actions. I feel for those children and those two sweet children who died are certainly with our Father in Heaven who loves them perfectly. I don't feel they deserve to be parents...they are dangerous with their decisions.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Clarissa – “No excuse for not using the help we have been given from on High, as in modern medicine.”

Perhaps I am confusing the spirit in which you intended this statement with the statement at face value, but will you please note one scientific discovery (related to modern medicine or not) that was “given” to us by some supernatural means?

And help me understand what that delivery system looked like – was it booming voice in the sky, a burning bush, instructions given on tablets or gold plates, or simply a prophetic flash of insight?

Best I can tell, every scientific discovery ever made has been the product of human ingenuity and perseverance, often in spite of (i.e., fighting against) the religious authorities of the day.

Clarissa
Layton, UT

I believe that we are inspired by God and that he helps us discover ways to treat illness through divine inspiration. I also believe that this is true for every talent and ability he has given us. I believe that no matter how much I practice my singing, I would not improve without his help. As for examples, I can not provide you with this. If I could, then you wouldn't need to develop faith. If you saw a bushing bush or heard a booming voice, you would have certain knowledge. Why did Marie Curie pursue her interest in radiation? I believe it was to help people on the battle field of WW 2 and to help with cancer, and CT scans. But, of course, if you don't believe in God, this whole comment is moot. I cannot prove to you that here is a God, you need to find out the truth on your own. You also cannot prove that there isn't a God, therefore, we are in a deadlock.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Clarissa

Fair enough… and I agree that it is a matter of faith (and I am not trying to denigrate yours), but the differences for many are more often on our conception of God.

I mean, is there a God (creative force) behind the universe that got it all started (with chemistry and evolution taking over from there)? Sure, that’s plausible. But is there a personal God that intervenes in the natural world, knows me personally, and most importantly tells certain select men (almost never women) what he wants us to do so these men can then tell us? That’s where I balk.

You’re right – I cannot prove such a God does not exist, just like I cannot prove Santa Claus doesn’t exist or that I am really just a body/brain in a vat (e.g., the Matrix). I just don’t see compelling evidence for believing in that God. And I see lots of evidence to suggest religion is mostly man-made.

Finally, does God inspire atheist/agnostic scientists as well? And what about evil scientists like the Nazis who used their knowledge to design more efficient & effective ways to kill people?

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

Bottom line, pray if you want, but then get the appropriate medical attention.

If you can only choose one of the above, don't you think that the 2nd option is best?

Clarissa
Layton, UT

If you were only rewarded when you broke God's commandments, and punished when you didn't, you would definitely be good. God isn't the only one who inspires men to do evil. Satan is out and truly about. It's called free agency. Why do people do evil things? Because they have lost their moral compass. We live in a world which is becoming more and more evil.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Clarissa – “We live in a world which is becoming more and more evil.”

Do you really think so Clarissa? I don’t see it that way at all.

Seems like in ancient days war & killing was almost constant. Even reading the Bible the brutality is just rampant.

Now we live in a country of ~300 million and the vast majority of us get along just fine. And even though there is still violence in the world, as a percentage of total population (7B+) I think it’s a relatively peaceful place.

As a woman you and your daughters have more opportunity that at any time in history, and with the exception of places like Afghanistan girls are no longer relegated to a cattle-like life no education, early marriage, and having as many babies as possible before (mostly) an early death.

Combine that with all the other freedoms we (and most of the developed world) enjoy today that were simply unheard of even 500 years ago, and I’ll take our modern society over any ancient one any day of the week.

Philippine Bonita
Sammamish, WA

@Tyler D Innovators through history have spoken of being inspired by God to search for answers in certain avenues. Just yesterday in church, Julie McLoughlin, a scientist, told of being the first to discover the starting point of a specific gene sequence. Scientists in Germany and 2 labs in the US had been working on this 70+ hours a week for 18 months. She had been praying for help and she just woke up one morning and the words came to her mind, "look upstream". "Upstream" has significance in her field and made sense to her as a scientist that they were all looking too far down the chain. She went to the lab and looked and found the starting point exactly where she felt it would be. Does this mean her 18 months of research and the time put in by the other scientists was wasted? I doubt she could have understood the inspiration from God without the work and study she had put in.
Asking for this answer without getting advanced degrees and researching woukd be like parents who do not avail themselves of medical knowledge and expertise before asking for a miracle for their child.

A Scientist
Provo, UT

Philippine Bonita wrote:

"@Tyler D Innovators through history have spoken of being inspired by God to search for answers in certain avenues."

The number of scientists who have discovered truths WITHOUT any "inspiration" from god are far, far more than those who testify that they have been divinely inspired.

Children often attribute the presents under the tree on the morning of December 25th to "Santa Claus". That mistaken attribution does not count as evidence for the existence of Santa.

Likewise, there may be a very few scientists who attribute their discoveries to "god", but that does not count as evidence for the existence of such a being.

...at least not unless you are going to count all the discoveries WITHOUT divine help as testimony AGAINST the existence of god. In which case, the "No's" win the day...

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