light bulbs. Conservatives are even against light bulbs that SAVE them money.
Money saved by the average family goes back into the economy strengthening it.
Money saved on gasoline can go back into non imported goods. There
are a thousand reason to conserve energy. The top one could be to help the
economy by NOT wasting resources. Waste is always bad for business, you should
realize that and stop fighting it based on irrational beliefs and philosophies.
Most environmentalists believe the cost of acting now is better for the economy
because of a reduction in future costs.
Really, there is nothing to worry about because the END is coming soon.God isn't going to have to do anything at all to destroy the world as
promised.All He needs to do is sit back and let the GOP do it for
2bits-You make a good point.However, while not all those
who jump on the environmental movement are trying to tank the economy, I see
from many who post here regularly that they do want to tank the economy out of
pure jealousy of those who are financially successful. Their vision is to make
their fellow man as broke as they are. Environmentalism is the perfect club to
do it.They reject developing our country to make everyone better
off. Instead they cling to their hate and jealousy and cry for equality by
blocking progress and tearing down their fellow man.
@SWP "[T]emperatures are trending up. That's indisputable."Global average temperatures peaked in 1998 and have stayed flat ever
since. That's a decade-and-a-half without increase. Is this what your
climate models predicted would happen?
I'll just point out that temperatures are trending up. That's
indisputable. Temperatures are measured and it is getting warmer. However, I
think you can make a serious argument that it's related to normal climate
fluctuations and not man-made. Anytime someone, left or right, says
"See how hot it is this spring" or "We're having an unusually
cool spring" to bolster their argument they lose all credibility. We're
only talking fractions of a degree here folks....
I don't think it's the "Goal" to put the economy in the
tank.... but I know many radical environmentalists don't really CARE if the
economy needs to be destroyed in order to achieve what they see as "more
important" goals.I do know that at least SOME radical
environmentalists have no problem admitting that even IF we could do away with
all electrical power generation today... it would not stop Global Warming's
course. And they have no problem pointing out that we would have to eliminate
a few million people infesting the earth with their presence to have any impact
now.Are we willing to throw away a few million human lives on the
alter of Global Warming??? Some radical environmentalists are.They
never say WHO will be sacrificed... or HOW... but they acknowledge that the
population has to be reduced DRASTICALLY and immediatly in order to have any
significant impact on the direction of Global Warming.It's not
the "goal"... but Racidal Environmentalists don't care if the
economy is impacted by their plans... I'm just hoping they will decide to
let me LIVE!
To "Matthew Weed" it isn't a conspiracy. See the movie "Cool
It". That is a documentary made by some liberal economists where they look
at the legislation being proposed and what the politicians want to do and come
to realize that economically the politicians plans are a failure.So,
if the politicians are proposing plans that economically are a failure, what
would you call it? Do failed economic policies help or damage the economy?
@Counter."Many of your comments to Mountainman are those that I
have often thought about your posts"Sorry you feel that way. My
intention is never to mislead, intentionally or not. When I post what I call
facts, I research them. I look for reasonable sources and I list them.Much of the time, I do post information supporting only one side of the
argument, but that is because the other side has already been presented.I certainly have opinions, and they are just that. But, when I
substantiate my positions with facts, they are researched.Don't
know if you notice but I constantly reveal that I think both R and D are to
blame for our problems. Both R and D increase our debt. Both R and D have
moral failings.That gets me labeled as a liberal as no real
"conservative" would point out GOP failings.I seldom defend
the Dems. But I do combat those who seem to think the GOP does no wrong.Recently MM blasted LBJ for raiding SS. I pointed out that the R and D
have consistently done that.MM's comment on that was partisan.
Was mine? See the difference?
Simple question to you repubs...If cap and trade was proposed by
YOUR party and sponsored by YOUR President (daddy Bush) and was looked at as a
viable option to aid in man influenced global warming then why is it looked at
as a socialist, unconstitutional, and evil liberal proposal now? What has changed?I'm sure that the "campaign
contributions" from Energy Solutions, Exxon Mobile, and the Koch Bros has
had no influence upon your elected officials (like Michael Lee).
@ Silo. You conveniently left out and misquoted Nordhaus' conclusions. I
didn't say he didn't believe in man made global warming but I did
accurately quote his conclusion that the cost of implementing the
"changes" would outweigh the benefits by a cost of $26 trillion. Whether
you believe in man made global warming or not if you don't get the Chinese
and the East Indians to comply, nothing we do will matter anyway! We will be
wasting our time and precious economy. In the meantime the reason I post on here
is to "filter" the baloney coming from the left as much as I can. It
would appear my side is winning because fewer people everyday are buying this
man made global warming hoax. 50 years from now, when the climate has varied
cooler, as it is now, rabid environmentalists will still be using junk science
and hysteria to promote some other silly theory and wanting more money. And yes,
we are having a colder than normal spring over much of the country. If it were
warmer than normal, I guarantee it would be presented as "proof" that
the climate is in danger!
@jjjdsd"Human life is such a small fraction of living creatures
on this earth that have come and gone, why should human life trump."You are right, we are a small fraction, but no other life form has had
as deep impact on the Earth as we have. No other form of life has contributed
as much to the climate crisis as we have."Evolution says human
life will wink out and other life will be created. Humans on their own have not
the ability to destroy all life."We have no evidence that
Evolution, until humanity has created another sentient species, which is why we
have survived (we certainly are not the biggest, fastest or strongest) We do
have the ability to destroy life with our incredible nuclear arsenals."If you don't believe in a god that has his hand in it then you have
no business trying to be that god."I really hope you are not
trying to imply that the existance of a Creator gives us a free pass. I believe
this world was a gift from Him to us, and he will expect an accountability from
us for how we treat our mortal home.
GroverYou said it wellI will gladly "pay now" for real; just
not for overwrought zealJoeBlowMany of your comments to
Mountainman are those that I have often thought about your postsPerhaps
that is the price of a 200 word limit - complicated issues do not fit into a
Those who think environmentalists are not out to hurt the economy have never
deal with the zealots in government and nonprofit organizations who have
hijacked the movement. Speaking against "saving the earth devotees" is
like condemning motherhood and apple pie. Everyone wants help the earth, but
most people fail to recognize that too many in regulatory or lobbying positions
have a far more deceptive motive than what most people think the cause is all
Re: "The environmentally conscious people with whom I've interacted
have no vested interest in hurting the economy."Hmmmm.So why is it the "green" movement defies the bell curve, with EVERY
one of their initiatives more than two standard deviations from the norm on the
harm-to-economy scale?And, why is it that they are so willing to
commit and expend such vast sums of national treasure on untried, untested,
not-ready-for-primetime enterprises that have such an appallingly poor track
record of benefitting either the environment or the economy?And, why
is it that the "green" movement is peopled primarily by redistributive
socialists, many of them retreads from 60's-era anti-everything
movements?Seems to me they're not being entirely forthcoming
about their vested interests.
Mountanman,While I often disagree with you, I believe that many are
your arguments have merit.But, oftentimes, it would appear that you
intentionally mislead, use erroneous or incomplete information or take things
completely out of context in order to bolster your point.Why not be
honest and forthcoming? Are you arguments so weak that you feel the need to
mislead?Do you feel that the truth does not make your point? Is the truth
just not sensational enough?Your summary above is misleading at
best, telling only the worst case scenario. You completely lose
credibility.Thanks to Silo for posting the ACTUAL unedited summary
which tells a very different story than the one Mtnman has suggested.Lastly, you post "In the meantime, it sure is cold here today!"That is called weather. Longer term pattern are called climate. To my point above, you use a days weather to bolster your point. But, I am
sure that even you know that today's temperature is irrelevant to the
discussion.But you use it anyway.
The conversation about the left trying to ruin the economy and the right being
uncaring about the environment we leave our children as usual is off the point.
The real conversation is about the opportunity cost of doing something or not
doing it. Let's say for this point that the science in undecided at this
point, but the argument is complicated by the possibility that not doing
something now, makes action in the future much more expensive or even
impossible. This could be paraphrased as "pay me now or pay me later".
There has to be a certain amount that is worth spending now to minimize the
chance that there could be catastrophe later. The non partisan brain would I
believe arrive at this conclusion rationally, but instead we let ourselves be
tossed back and forth by claims of certainty from the right and left on a
question that no one has a clear cut answer to.
The amazing thing about humans is our ability to make changes to how we live. We
can recognize there needs to be change and we're capable of making a living
in some other way.I simply don't get why people don't consider
future generations when it comes to environmental causes. The concept of using
every resource as rapidly as possible makes no sense. "Drill baby
Drill" will do nothing but hurt future economies and generations.
"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't doing whatever may
be necessary for planet to continue to sustain life, especially human life,
trump whatever "economic concerns" may arise?" Human life is such a
small fraction of living creatures on this earth that have come and gone, why
should human life trump. Evolution says human life will wink out and other life
will be created. Humans on their own have not the ability to destroy all life.
If you don't believe in a god that has his hand in it then you have no
business trying to be that god. Cleaning up pollution is a truly admirable
action. But claiming conditions that existed at the time humans came into being,
is pollution is just plain wrong. The earth returning to that same state is not
When people drive around all winter in their SUV’s with a ski rack on top
– do they consciously intend to create more air pollution in Salt Lake
– NO – they intend to go skiing and have a fun day.Simply
because environmental hysterics do not intend to ruin the economy does not mean
their actions cannot do soThe road to hell is paved with good
intentionsClimate has never not changedHysteria seldom results
in good Greenwash is not productive
@mountanmanHow valuable are your posts? How truthful are your
posts?Many of us already apply the necessary 'filters' to
your posts, but for the benefit of others, I'll simply offer this...Your statement:"[Nordhaus] has calculated what would happen in
the long haul if the world were to implement an anti-warming plan like Al
Gore's and has some numbers to share: Costs would outweigh benefits by $21
trillion"The actual summary of Nordhaus work:"Nordhaus’s optimal plan yields net benefits of approximately $3
trillion. Yet some of the other popular proposals have abatement costs that
exceed their benefits. The worst is Gore’s 2007 proposal to reduce CO2
emissions 90 percent by 2050; DICE 2007 estimated that Gore’s plan would
make the world more than $21 trillion poorer..."So the most
poorly design proposal costs money, but the best designed plan actually saves
money. Funny you didn't mention the one that saves money. Why is that?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't doing whatever may be
necessary for planet to continue to sustain life, especially human life, trump
whatever "economic concerns" may arise?Hint, with no life,
there is no economy to worry about.That being said, as the
technology becomes more readily available, and less expensive, it would result
in a net gain to the economy.
It's utterly amazing that so many journalists and others inundate us
regularly with scare stories demanding that the United States take fierce
anti-warming action while scarcely ever pausing to mention the possible futility
of it all — or the costThose costs will get us if we don't
fight back, and those saying so aren't just radio hosts of the kind that
make leftists urge censorship. They are people like William Nordhaus, a Yale
economist. He has calculated what would happen in the long haul if the world
were to implement an anti-warming plan like Al Gore's and has some numbers
to share: Costs would outweigh benefits by $21 trillion.In the meantime,
it sure is cold here today! And in many part of our country we are having
unusually cold temperatures. Don't fall for this global warming hoax! Its
all about money-taking yours (carbon taxes)!
Fluoridated water Is another conspiracy that is in our environment that is
thought to cloud the brain. There is so many censer causing things that dis-ease
is the only industry left.
What are the jet streams that linger all day? Rummer has it that they're
aluminum clorhydrate. Its suppose to build clouds and reflect heat from the
sun.. Isn't aluminum clorhydrate what is believed to cause Alsimhimers
"The environmentally conscious people with whom I've interacted have no
vested interest in hurting the economy"One can make a reasoned
argument that some of the climate change proposals could have a negative impact
on the economy.But, it is just absolutely ludicrous to think that
"hurting the economy" is a goal.People who further that
notion lose all credibility.
Excellent letter Mr. Weed. The idea that environmentalists are out to destroy
the economy is ludicrous. How could that possibly help their cause. It is only
with a strong economy that we can afford to do the necessary things to improve
the environment and stop environmental sabatage that eventually costs all of us
in terms of tax money for clean-up and a reduction in the livable environment.
We are stewards of this good Earth and we have a moral obligation to leave it
better than we found it. It is here for our use and benefit but that will only
work if we treat it with respect and honor, not abuse and desecration.