Quantcast
U.S. & World

Calif. tax bill seeks to punish Scouts for gay ban

Comments

Return To Article
  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    April 10, 2013 8:37 p.m.

    @lost
    As you have already been told that church received public land to build that pavilion with the understanding it was open the public and as we have discussed before the Catholic Hospitals received payment out of public funds to treat the poor and elderly they where not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 10, 2013 8:29 p.m.

    Tolstoy,
    Churches recieved public money to buy and maintain their pavilions? I don't think so. And you know that, too. You're saying Catholic hospitals MUST perform abortions to treat the poor and elderly? Who is forcing their morality onto others - KNOWINGLY?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    April 10, 2013 5:36 p.m.

    @loat

    Once again all of the exaples you give are organizations that where required to perform the duties they agreed to when they entered into civil contracts for which they received public money so not the same thing and you know it.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    April 10, 2013 3:23 p.m.

    @atl134 and Tolstoy:

    I am glad you are "uncomfortable" or "oppose this bill". However, it is the folks that sponsored this bill and support it that has the churches worried, and the reason they oppose "gay marriage".

    Although, any influence you have over the Cali legislature to defeat this "tax" bill would be appreciated by the Boy Scouts and the churches, I'm sure.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    April 10, 2013 3:20 p.m.

    wow - big surprise that the 'gay capital' of America would be trying to punish BSA for not submitting to their will.

  • Over the Top Rigby, ID
    April 10, 2013 2:51 p.m.

    Oh, if it weren't for taxes! What a thorn!! It's not that California would force gay leadership/membership of the BSA, but would take away their tax-exampt status if they keep status quo.

    If you paid attention to the arguments in the Supreme Court a couple of weeks ago with regard to DOMA it hinged on a tax case.

    Being ruled a "tax", is how the Supreme Court gave us Obamacare.

    Inevitibly, taxes are what will overrule the underpinnings of the Constitution. It's already started. In fact it started 100 years ago!

  • GiuseppeG Murray, Utah
    April 10, 2013 2:50 p.m.

    Hey if you don't like California get out...wait, I already did.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:49 p.m.

    OHBU,

    It doesn't matter what people "identify" as. It matters what they ARE.

    Most people in jail don't "identify" as criminals.

    But they are.

    And any man who has sexual relations with another male is either homosexual or bisexual.

    That is what they are:

    100% of men who have abused boy scouts are homosexuals are bisexuals.

    That is just by definition.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    April 10, 2013 2:52 p.m.

    Nagap,

    You failed to show where the fallacy in my logic lies. In both instances, you have a group who holds a certain belief system, and tries to enforce those through legislation. Alcohol regulation is one thing, but in Utah it is very different than the rest of the nation--and you're seriously arguing that this has nothing to do with the LDS population?! I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of looking at a place like California, where people believe differently than you, and saying they should live and let live, and then when it comes to these issues in Utah, the answer is "if you don't like it, move."

    Also, removing tax exempt status is not the same as forcing an organization to admit gay members. I don't support this legislation, but it's not actually a Constitutional issue. Now, if they sued those groups in addition to revoking tax exempt status, you've got a case.

    Per LDS website about Young Womens camp (pg 86): "...adult Priesthood leaders should be at camp at all times..." Not just for devotionals, but camping all week long.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:52 p.m.

    tolstoy,

    no, not much of a stretch. it won't take them long, and there are examples of them already going there. Churches lose tax exempt status because they refuse to allow gay couples to rent church owned pavilions for their receptions while the church does allow heterosexaul couples to rent the property, etc.

    church owned hospitals required to perfomr abortions if they accept medicare (meaning they cannot treat the elderly unless they perform abortions)

    leftist and gay agendas are crushing the 1st amendment rights garanteed people of faith. Obamacare is another perfect example.

  • Vince here San Diego, CA
    April 10, 2013 2:48 p.m.

    How can people call legal discrimination against gays ok and then make it believe that it's an attack on Christian values?

    Tolerance goes both ways - unless some people chose to disregard Gen. Conf.

  • Gone fishin Murray, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:51 p.m.

    OBHU,
    Nice try but your thinking is terribly flawed, just like the liberal thinking in California. There is NOT a large contingent of people inside the BSA that want this bill to pass. Just a vocal minority. The BSA, as pointed out, is a private organization. Just because liberals think something is right does not mean it is so. Since when can the government dictate moral standards or even worse the gay community. As similar bills have passed the liberal senate of California this probably will as well since there are a number of state senators that are gay or gay supporters. When it passes you will see many families withhold their boys from BSA programs and will also see many financial supporters withdraw their support essentially ending the BSA as we currently know it in Califirnia.
    The BSA has already lost valuable financial support and will continue to do so in the near future. Becaue of people that think like you the end is near for decent and moral things of this world.

  • Obama10 SYRACUSE, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:41 p.m.

    If this goes into law (which I don't think it will) then the logical next step would be for churches to lose their tax-exempt status as well. This would not go over well in predominantly black churches who overwhelming voted for Prop 8 in California. I know the BSA and Scouts was added to the headline to drive interest and add shock value, but as stated in the article, the YMCA and other youth organizations would also be effected.

  • sg newhall, CA
    April 10, 2013 2:37 p.m.

    Then it's time for the BSA to leave California altogether. Again, is there any reason why any good-standing Mormon should feel so inclined to be a democrat? Another abuse of power given by the people. Unfortunately, those people are lacking in clear judgment.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:30 p.m.

    sorry that was suppose to be "as someone that supports gay rights"

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    April 10, 2013 2:07 p.m.

    Fred Vader: I, like you, wanted to believe the continued affirmations that no one would be "forced"... Force comes in many formats. Wait for it....Wait for it... The headline coming soon: "California lawmakers are considering taking some tax exemptions away from ... groups that do not accept gay, transgender or atheist members β€” a move intended to pressure ... Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Moslems," ... take your pick.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    April 10, 2013 1:57 p.m.

    @fred vader

    While i think it is a bit of a stretch to claim that removing the boy scouts tax exempt status is the same as forcing churches to marry gay couples, I can says someone that supports gay rights this bill does make me uncomfortable so please try not to lump us all in with this one senator.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    April 10, 2013 1:58 p.m.

    Brave Sir Robin,

    As you'll notice, I'm not in favor of making the BSA do anything it doesn't want to do. However, you have to realize that there is a large faction within its own organization that wants this ban lifted. I would like the BSA to recognize this on their own.

    In the first post, however, Gone fishin attempts to make an argument for why the BSA should keep it. I merely pointed out that their argument was does not pass the muster, and if they want the ban to stay in place, they are going to need to convince the organization that changing the policy would be harmful.

    As a sidenote, Augusta has now admitted women into the country club. Also, they didn't have tax exempt status in the first place.

  • OlderGreg USA, CA
    April 10, 2013 1:54 p.m.

    It is a TAX bill being proposed by a group of California grandstanders. It has to get through the committee before it gets to the floor for a vote, where it will need a minimum β…” vote to pass each legislative body. It is weird in the language that says it goes into effect immediately (instead of some fiscal year)--- which would create additional bean-counter challenges.

    Pretty good indication of the bill being punitive in nature.

  • Nagap Dallas, TX
    April 10, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    @OHBU

    You must be the King/Queen of false analogies.

    First, comparing the regulation of alcohol in Utah to California denying tax exemption to a private institution does not equate. This is called a logical fallacy.

    But while we are on the topic of legislation, didn't the Supreme court affirm that as a private institution, the Boy Scouts of America can set their own membership standards. So let's leave it up to them--there are very capable people on the National Executive Board, and I'm sure they want to make a decision that is best for the organization.

    Next, comparing priesthood leaders holding a devotional during the evening at girls camp to homosexuals camping out with young men, I'm sure you weren't being serious.

  • Star Bright Salt Lake City, Ut
    April 10, 2013 1:47 p.m.

    Interesting OHBU: "Mormon Utah"--using laws to force people to act like you do--see: Utah's liquor laws and cities banning any businesses from being open on Sundays as just two examples."
    The only places the "Utah Mormons" insist are closed on Sunday are businesses that occupy the land and the malls which the Mormons own!
    And, yes, the Scouts are going after all the Churches which will not preform gay marriages!

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    April 10, 2013 1:41 p.m.

    Re: "[Long Beach Democrat] Sen. Ricardo Lara [said] 'Our state values the important role that youth groups play in the empowerment of our next generation . . . .'"

    While it may be true that the real people of the state of California value that important role, Democrats continue to make it clear they do not. And that they will punish anyone who disagrees with their deranged notions of some new morality that should replace everything tried-and-true.

    Democrats are stumbling over one another to prove to real people that they've become the party of brutal, intolerant bigots.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 10, 2013 1:37 p.m.

    β€œThe legislation, also known as the Youth Equality Act, would deny tax-exempt status to nonprofit youth groups that discriminate on the basis of gender identity, race, sexual orientation, nationality, religion or religious affiliation.”

    Clearly a violation of the 1st amendment. But the US Constitution does not matter to liberals.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    April 10, 2013 1:32 p.m.

    @Fred Vader
    "I could swear all of the "gay marriage" supporters swore up and down that they wouldn't go after folks to force them to accept gays into their organizations. They claim they wouldn't force the LDS church or other churches to perform gay marriages in their temples, churches or synagoges, but it is "ok" to deny the Boy Scouts their freedom of association guaranteed by the 1st amendment? "

    As a gay marriage supporter I oppose this proposed bill.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    April 10, 2013 1:15 p.m.

    @OHBU

    "You need to establish that lifting the ban would make the BSA unable to achieve its mission."

    Incorrect. The BSA needs to prove nothing. It's a private organization that can admit whoever it wants for whatever reason it wants. Think of it this way: Augusta National country club doesn't allow women, although they could certainly "achieve their mission" (providing golf) if women were allowed. So are you suggesting that no group may exclude anyone from anything unless they can prove it would keep them from achieving their mission? You've lost the script I'm afraid. Otherwise there will soon be boys joining Girl Scouts.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    April 10, 2013 1:14 p.m.

    Chris B:

    The BSA currently has no policy against women acting as adult leadership. Here's the policy in question: "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings." That's because being hetero doesn't mean a grown woman will try to be with a young boy. Likewise, being gay is not the same as being a pedophile. In fact, the vast majority of men who have abused boys identify as hetero (about 97%), thus the current ban does nothing for child protection because they wouldn't be excluded on grounds of sexual orientation.

    Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there always Priesthood leadership at Girl's Camp? If so, then grown men do go camping with neighbor girls.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    April 10, 2013 1:06 p.m.

    hhmmmm....that is really weird. I could swear all of the "gay marriage" supporters swore up and down that they wouldn't go after folks to force them to accept gays into their organizations. They claim they wouldn't force the LDS church or other churches to perform gay marriages in their temples, churches or synagoges, but it is "ok" to deny the Boy Scouts their freedom of association guaranteed by the 1st amendment? Seems like if it is ok to tax the Boy Scouts for not agreeing with the gays, it is only a hop, skip and a jump to do the same thing to churches and other tax-exempt entities to force them to "behave" as well.

    If you are a "gay marriage supporter" and you are not against this act of the Cali legislature, then you can no longer use the excuse that "gay marriage" won't be forced on churches. This is exactly why the churches are fighting it.

  • Oatmeal Woods Cross, UT
    April 10, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    It would "deny tax-exempt status to nonprofit youth groups that discriminate on the basis of gender identity, race, sexual orientation, nationality, religion or religious affiliation."

    So unconstiutional on so many levels. Think about it... freedom of association, both boys' and girls' groups, ethnic/cultural organizations, any religious group... This is extremist insanity!

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    April 10, 2013 12:43 p.m.

    Gone fishin:
    While I would love the BSA to drop its ridiculous positions excluding gays, I'm not sure this is the right direction to go. I'm much more in favor of getting this changed from within. However, I'd point out that you are basically accusing "liberal California" of the exact same thing people level against "Mormon Utah"--using laws to force people to act like you do--see: Utah's liquor laws and cities banning any businesses from being open on Sundays as just two examples. In both cases, you are legislating beliefs.

    Also, "time-tested values that have worked for many years" is not, in itself, a valid argument. It's the same argument given for slavery, which dates back to at least ancient Greece. That something produces a desired result does not mean it can't produce that result by other means. You need to establish that lifting the ban would make the BSA unable to achieve its mission.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    April 10, 2013 12:46 p.m.

    This is about scout safety.

    Men dont go on campouts with little neighbor girls.

    Men who may be attracated to boys shouldnt do the same with neighbor boys.

  • well informed Salt Lake, UT
    April 10, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    Time for the LDS Church to part ways with the Boy Scouts.

  • Bleed Crimson Sandy, Utah
    April 10, 2013 12:33 p.m.

    California's intolerance towards Christian believers. Typical!

  • Gone fishin Murray, UT
    April 10, 2013 12:24 p.m.

    Who else but liberal California would force, by law, someone to think and act that they do. The BSA has been around for a very long time and has time-tested values that have worked for many years. This will mean the end of the BSA in California as we know it.