Published: Friday, March 29 2013 12:00 a.m. MDT
One of the purposes of religion is to teach people how to behave correctly
toward each other, themselves and God and that we are all accountable to God for
our behavior. Without religious values we will have much more antisocial
behavior like the mass murders we have seen recently. Whom do the secular
progressive, anti religious, everything is relative, do your own things but
don't judge me people of our day blame? Why they blame guns instead of
people with no values and why not? If you reject religious values, believe you
are accountable to no one and believe good and evil are relative, who is to say
killing and harming others is wrong?
"Nones" have always been around, though like many of us today, they were
raised in a religious background. Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and George
Washington either were Nones in their day, or might certainly be Nones today.
Mark Twain was a None, certainly.Nones aren't really
evangelical or on a mission for converts, but we'll support others who want
to escape what may feel like an onerous upbringing they find problems with.
Today those include many Gays and Lesbians, it seems "their time" has
come. Many of us aren't hostile toward religion or
religionists, but we also don't see any religion as being superior to
another, which can probably feel like opposition or lack of respect to those who
are trying to bring us back into the fold, or convince us that we should join
their congregation. "Live and Let Live" and the Golden Rule
are the unspoken rules of Nones.I've been to many, many
different types of religious congregations and meetings, including LDS,
Catholic, all kinds of Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist.
I respect them all.Nones are far more likely to believe there are
multiple "good paths" in this life.
Mountainman:When I was a kid I thought atheists had to be
unrestrained, selfish, immoral hedonists who would do anything to maximize their
own pleasure and didn't care about others. What incentive do they have to
be nice to others? There's nothing after this life, so grab every ounce of
selfish pleasure you can, right?Having met and known more than a few
real atheists (who are really agnostics who're not optimistic about the
prospects after this life), I've found them to be quite moral people, very
concerned about others and sympathetic / empathetic to the struggles people go
through.They're often charity-minded and follow the Golden
Rule.The more we study other primates, the more we realize they also
quite charitable and help each other. Other species of animals do the same
thing. It seems to be in their DNA, which isn't to diminish how we help
each other, or learn to grow in caring for each other."None"-Believers, Agnostics and Atheists are usually the first to see
suffering from religiously sanctioned persecution, such as slavery, racial
discrimination, and now the plight of gays.So, we play an important
role in society.
""None"-Believers, Agnostics and Atheists are usually the first to
see suffering from religiously sanctioned persecution, such as slavery, racial
discrimination, and now the plight of gays.So, we play an important
role in society."Well said ... a very important part in a free
Institutional Christianity may be showing signs age fatigue but the messages of
Jesus continue to transcend all things institutional, as they did from the
start. Christianity has weathered many changes in the past two millenia, the
fall of Rome, the rise of European states, the Muslim challenge from the East,
the 11th century schism, the 16th century Reformation which at the time must
have seem like Christianity coming apart at the seams.Every crisis
may seem like the end for a time but it always gives way to renewal and rebirth.
That's the hopeful message to keep in mind this Easter weekend.
@ 10CC. History offers us many examples of "none- agnostics and atheists who
have NOT played important roles for good in society. Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin,
Mao Tse Tung, among others who did not see anything evil in what they did and
they all had something in common-not relgious. What other explanation do you
have for people like Eric Harris (Columbine), Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) or Jared
Lee Loughner (Gabrielle Gifford) who apparently saw nothing wrong with what they
did. What if they had been taught some religious values? As far as your view
that atheists are the first to see suffering from persecution, slavery or racial
discrimination or plight of the gays (what plight is that?) I think that is a
huge over statement on your part given the slaves were freed by Abraham Lincoln
a devotedly religious man! As was Martin Luther King, as was most (not all) of
those in history who fought for justice.
I figure religion is to keep good people good, so I can only imagine what it
could be like if there isn't any.
The older I get - The more true John Lennon's song "Imagine"
Becoming a less religious nation has a host of consequences. And they're
all good. We're maturing as a nation and society, and more and more of us
realise we are good, moral people without the need for the guilt and fear
religion tries to impose. Religion has proven itself quite capable and willing
to divide us, and it has shown time and again no exclusivity on morality. As it
is I don't necessarily believe there isn't a god. But the hucksters
and charlatans the claim to be gods reps among us do nothing to argue in
A list of "nones" who have done evil invites a list of zealots who have
done evil in the name of religion. It's a dead end to talk of extremes. Do
unto others and mind your own business. The folks I attend church with are very
good at the former, not so good at the latter. The takeaway here is that
we've gone from 20% religious at our founding to 50% now. An obvious upward
trend no matter your persuasion.
Mountainman:There are examples of truly evil monsters from a variety
of religious backgrounds, including "Nones". Not to diminish the role
played by Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc, there have been many murders committed
in the name of religion, including the Christian Crusades, the many widespread
injustices done in the name of "Christianizing and uplifting the
savages" as nations engaged in conquest, slavery, etc. Some of this history
is close to home, as the tension between LDS settlers and Native Americans
culminated in the Bear River Massacre in the late 1800s, after which some Saints
exclaimed "our prayers have been answered".If you think
about the history of religion, especially the three "religions of the
book" (in chronological order) Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it seems
religions seem to settle down after some period of fervent belief in converting
others, sometimes violently. 9-11 was maybe the most recent example, from the
Muslims, who are 500 years "younger" than Christianity.Without question the "Nones" have their own share of atrocities. Mass murderers are more typically explained as psychotics, who I suspect
have organic brain disorders, like Ted Bundy and this kid from Newtown.
MountanmanYour version of history has little correlation with
reality.None of the persons you list - Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Mao
Tse Tung, Harris (Columbine), Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) or Jared Lee - were known
to be atheists. indeed, history and records demonstrate that every one of them
were raised in religion and WERE "taught some religious values". the
murders and atrocities these people committed can only be blamed on atheism if
one is completely divorced from facts and reality.Please try not to
paint with such a broad, condemning brush. It suggests you may have lost touch
with Jesus' teachings (Matt. 7:1) (and then would you blame that sin on
your own atheism?)
@Mountanman"What if they had been taught some religious
values?"Then they could have been manipulated to kill for God
like Crusaders, modern day Muslims (some), or used it to justify slavery and
other atrocities. Nut jobs are nut jobs ... killers are killers ...
if they say it's for God or because there is no God then we can attribute
it to religion. Otherwise it's a road to nowhere."I think
that is a huge over statement on your part given the slaves were freed by
Abraham Lincoln a devotedly religious man!"Lincoln has MANY
quotes showing his non-interest in traditional Christianity. What's my
favorite you ask? Gladly I'll tell you!"When I do good, I
feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion. "What a wonderful way to live? While others are justifying slavery
through Christianity, Lincoln was abolishing it because it felt wrong. Wonderful
... intuition ... logic ... beauty.
So what does becoming 'more' religious lead to? From our
own Deseret news: **'Boy, 15, reprimanded for backing
traditional family in school paper' - By Joshua Bolding, Deseret News -
01/27/12'He (Wegner) also quoted scriptures like Leviticus
20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to DEATH...'
I agree that great violence is not necessarily correlated to religion or the
lack thereof.Reference the "great" mass murders - a few
quotes from the Wiki folks:Stalin:Raised in the Georgian
Orthodox faith, Stalin became an atheist. He followed the position adopted by
Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed . . . Pol Pot:The Khmer Rouge also classified people by religion . . . They
banned all religion and dispersed minority groups . . . They especially targeted
Buddhist monks, Muslims, Christians, Western-educated intellectuals . . . Mao:His wife, Wen Qimei, was a devout Buddhist who tried to temper
her husband's strict attitude. Zedong became a Buddhist, venerating a
bronze statue of the Buddha, but abandoned this faith in his mid-teenage
years.Hitler is difficult to pigeon hole but this is cogent:The adult Adolf Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist, who saw
Christianity as a religion fit for slaves, and a rebellion against the natural
law of selection and survival of the fittest. Raised a Catholic, Hitler had some
respect for the 'great position' of that church, but became deeply
hostile to its teachings.So the record on these folks is pretty
clear. Whatever religion they had was rejected.
@LDS Liberal "The more true John Lennon's song "Imagine"
becomes....'So what you are saying is that you really are not LDS
because you imagine no religion – including the one you claim – but
routinely put down@als AtheistYour version of history has
little correlation with reality.Stalin and Mao Tse Tung, were raised with
some religious training - but rejected it, in favor the elimination of all
religion as a desired outcome of an egalitarian Communist society, as called for
by Karl Marx and his belief that "religion is the opiate of the
masses."Hitler was raised Catholic, but rejected it in favor of
rationalist and a materialist viewpoints. He viewed Christianity as a religion
fit for slaves, and a rebellion against the natural law of selection and
survival of the fittest. He sought to purge Christianity of its Jewish
influences. Adam Lanza and Jared Lee were just messed up.I agree that all atheists should not be painted with the broad brush of the
atrocities of other atheists, yet the facts do prove the politically correct
bully tactic that supposes that all atheists are good and religious people are
bad, is a bunch of bunk.
I'm fine with someone being atheist but I do have a question. People say
that atheists, though they don't believe in God, still follow the
"golden rule". If they don't believe in God, why is that important?
Why have charity for others if it doesn't matter in the end? Also, the
whole "golden rule" thing (treating others with kindness, respect,
etc.)is found basically in any religion (Chirstianity,Judaism etc.) and is the
product of the teachings of God. So aren't you, in effect, following the
teachings of a God that you don't even believe in? I could see you getting
these ideas if you grew up with a religious background but if you didn't,
where do you get the idea to treat others with kindness and respect if not from
God since human nature is really the exact opposite (altruism is hardly seen in
the natural world)? Also, some would say that they're following social
expectations, but these expectations that you're following are direct
results of religion and God. I guess I'm trying to understand how you fully
seperate yourselves from God? It seems pretty tough to me.
@bluecoug89Highland, UT"If they don't believe in God, why
is that important? Why have charity for others if it doesn't matter in the
end? So aren't you, in effect, following the teachings of a God
that you don't even believe in? where do you get the idea to
treat others with kindness and respect if not from God since human nature is
really the exact opposite (altruism is hardly seen in the natural world)? I guess I'm trying to understand how you fully seperate yourselves
from God?"Did not the Native Americans greet many of the first
explorers like Columbus and the Pilgrims with charity? They had a very different
religious belief than the God you're speaking of.There is good
in people's hearts. It doesn't take God for people to want to help one
another. How do you think we've survived for so long? Religion came about
WAY later than the first humans. Do you think they survived solely by killing
and walking over one another? We formed groups, families, and structures to rely
on one another.
Counter IntelligenceSalt Lake City, UT@LDS Liberal"The
more true John Lennon's song "Imagine" becomes....'So
what you are saying is that you really are not LDS because you imagine no
religion – including the one you claim – but routinely put down=========== There is no religion in Zion.There is no
religion in Heaven.Religion is an organization, not a doctrine.Try living the doctrine (gospel) of the church, and stop living by it's
religion (culture).FYI - It's guys like you, who push people
further and further away from it.
@LDS Liberal"It's guys like you, who push people further and
further away from it."Thats interesting - because I do not
belong to any church - including yours Imagine that - the "none"
defending relgion and the "member" condemning it: So once again - why
are you a member of something you seem to detest?
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