We women really only have ourselves to blame for this article. Had we set a
higher standard for the Deseret News they never would have printed it.
To The Real Maverick who said in several ways, "Again, I ask, if the world
is one big horrible place and is becoming worse and worse then we should be
subjecting fewer children not more to this hole of hopelessness until we get
this world fixed."The world has been a mess for most of its
existence. Even during anyone's long-enough lifetime he or she has heard
the same moaning: why should we subject "the children" to any of it,
recycled by generation. If we went by these criteria, nobody would have been
born since the first few hundred years of recorded history at the very least.
End of story. We obviously wouldn't be having the same discussion now.
The point is to do well our own part, raise our families safely and
with integrity, and stop obsessing over what we won't change. Who knows?
Either we or our children might be the spark in our own spheres of influence to
make the world better. That's worth, at the very least, these same,
Some of us tried to do it right, you know. I graduated High School, had a job,
met a dreamy bad-boy who swept me off my feet but was also my bosses friend...
we got married. I may have been only 17, but I was trying to do things in the
right order. How was I to know that he would start beating me so severely I
would almost die? Blame the woman though... we can take it. We handle everything
with a smile... and then charge you child support.
"So if the world is so bleak why should there be such a push to have kids?
Subjecting them to such a horrible life? The sky is falling the sky is
falling!"The issue is not that there is such a push to have
kids. The problem is that the kids are still coming, but these children are
being born without any functional scaffolding to prepare them to be healthy,
productive individuals. A healthy family has been shown to the best way to
support the healthy development of children. We need families with two committed
parents. Dating has been the tool that is used to nurture a committed couple
The Real Maverick, forget about "size of cities" the fact is 48% of
children born today are to UNWED Mothers - nationwide! The unraveling of
the core family is causing the world to become "worse and worse place to
live", but all hope is not lost - people can correct their mistakes.
Today's social EXPERIMENTS and absolute tolerance for anything and
everything will swing back to a more family-centered lifestyle when the
"fruits of the labors" show so much rotten fruit is being left by the
wayside.I like the saying: "If it's to be - it's up to
me." We can start modifying our own thoughts and actions and help others
know the alternate choices they can make to find true happiness. Following the
Hollywood and D.C. media hype are not places to find happiness. Expecting
more of yourself will help others expect more of themselves. What seems to be
the easiest path may turn out to be the most painful path if you don't know
where the path leads - there are consequences to every action.
or stated another way, "Courtship not a path to marriage and men are partly
to blame, since they are the other other possibility in the equation.
It has been my experience in life that you truly appreciate what you work for.
If women want men to appreciate and respect them than they should make them earn
it. I think marriages would last longer if women kept their standards high after
marriage as well.
This article was disappointing. It didn't say anything we didn't
already know. The current dating culture (which here is Utah isn't as
prevalent as it is in other places, but it still very much exists)is one lacking
in formalities. We've lost our sense of propriety as a nation (thanks in
great part to the 60's and 70's). This is affecting our culture in
some ways negatively and in other ways it has been okay. Really dating is caught
in an ugly cycle. Lack of formality created the hook up culture. The hook up
culture reinforces itself through women who don't demand more and men who
figure if they can get what they want for cheap why pay more.@Maverick, if you would like a more liberal newspaper I suggest the New York
Times or the Huffington Post. I'm not a liberal, often I find these
newspapers blatantly insult my belief systems. I also suggest taking the
article with a grain of salt. It was disappointing and didn't say anything
shocking at all. There was no need to get offended nor a need to take stabs at
Whoa, I think we are polarizing over the message instead of seeing who the
Messenger is. Betsy Hart. (I wonder if she is related to the real Roxy Hart,
from the Musical Chicago). Wikpedia says "Mrs. Hart (turns 50
this year) is the mother of four children and author of the book It Takes a
Parent: How the Culture of Pushover Parenting is Hurting Our Kids... and What to
Do About It. She is now divorced from her husband after 17 years of marriage.
Betsy is raising her four young children in the suburbs of Chicago."Although her husband filed for divorce. Does her being a divorcee
disqualify her from giving relationship/dating advice or color that POV?
That's a hard call. She's done TV network interviews and they are on
the internet. I'd be loathe to call her totally conservative without
further research. Her educational background is in Russian Literature. I agree with some of the earlier comments that the bad economy is postponing
alot of marriages to a degree.
Looking for benefits only? That reminds me of what my dogs have done over the
years? As our morals become more "old fashioned" and people give in to
their "natural" instincts rather then their brain and conscience, they
become more and more like the rest of the animal kingdom, and more like the
Between this and the Stubenville victim blaming I'm getting reallly sick of
hearing that men are not responsible for their own actions and women invite the
horrors that are dealt upon them by bad men. And this article from a woman no
less? Shame on you.
Women aren't married cause they are awake at 11:30 and willing to
communicate through a text with the person they are in a relationship with?
Seriously? Dating is to figure out if you are a good match. Not
always going to meet your one and only the first time you date. The automobile
means you don't have to marry someone who lives within 10 minutes of your
home. That is a good thing.
It may seem lame to some, but there is wisdom in following the prophet. I am
not advocating blind obedience. We should follow because we see. We all navigate our boats as best we can. It helps to know where the
lighthouse is (and what it is). It may not stop the storms, but it can help you
keep off the rocks.
I'm seeing a lot of push back. Frankly, this surprises me. I just
don't see any serious upside to the "Hookup" culture. How exactly is any of this good? I understand there's often a culture
gap, but this isn't a gap, it's a chasm into which the bedrock of
civilization is crumbling. Honestly, who will make the hard changes
or sacrifice their own comforts anymore? Is the age of sacrifice gone? Are we
just a bunch of sex gladiators living in one big social media colloseum where
the unlucky ones are the ones whose birth control failed? So what about the
casualties, cuz everything's casual?Are we really better off
this way?Are we better people because of the hook-up culture? Are we
better people because we treat each other with less respect, or take less
responsibility or abandon those in need?What exactly is getting
better? Has the casual availability of sexual encounters really made our nation
any stronger? I admit this is a genie that won't go back in the
bottle, and I don't see any easy fixes, but let's stop pretending
it's not a problem.
I agree, too many here need to put down the cane and stop talking about the darn
kids and their darn rock and role music - every generation looks down on the
next, they are lazy, don't do think like we did, yada yada yada "why
back in my day" is a phrase that should never be uttered less you wanted to
be looked upon as "that guy". Yes we know all about "your day"
and things weren't so great and peachy like we tend to bias ourselves into
believing. Yes most children born these days are born to unwed parents,
it's a shame no doubt, but the overall birth is way down too! Yes people
are waiting longer to get married and have kids, I'm sorry but this is not
a bad thing. Let the kids go to school, get an education, have fun in college,
why rush them to the alter? All to often we see these kind of marriages end up
in divorce. What we we rather have? More quality marriages and less divorce,
or just more marriages and more divorce? Especially if we're bringing kids
into the equation.
This whole position is advocating the "R" word.........responsibility.
There, I said it. Responsibility is the very thing folks want to avoid. They
think if they can go through life without any responsibilities then all is good.
Trouble is, this whole article revolves around taking responsibility for you
own life. She on one hand, he on the other. That's why some here
can't fathom the concept. Unfortunately, some here would impose their
extreme view of marriage on you and then claim it's your idea... ie the
teenage wife, property, arranged marriages. How about getting back to the
article: courtship, talking with each other, finding someone with values in
common, not just another pretty face. Dating and courtship, not hooking up and
moving on. You should be looking for a suitable mate, not the next hot model.
To "Bebyebe" go back and read the article. While the title implies that
women are at fault, it is a shared problem. The women don't expect much,
so the men respond with what little is expected.To
"pragmatistferlife" don't make this a political issue. The facts
are that this is destructive to the nation as a whole. You can't expect a
healthy economy when the households and families are not healthy. As many
studies point out, when there is a nurturing intact family with a father and
mother present and involved at home, it reduces poverty and improves outcomes of
their children.You also assume that the change is for the better.
Is it really better when the changes being made will lead to disaster?To "Hutterite" blame must be assessed so that people can fix the
problem. If we just said "wow its weird that society is crumbling and women
and men are settling" and left it there, how would we know what corrections
must be made to fix thing?
@The Real Maverick:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Mountainman is lamenting that there is an underclass in inner cities that are
trapped in poverty because they are growing up without fathers.If he
is not a bleeding heart liberal, maybe, he is becoming a bleeding heart
conservative.Why oh why are you arguing with him over this issue?
@Bebyebe"Why can't the DN have an article about men's
responsibility in relationships?"------------Funny. I was
going to comment: "About time a DN article about relationships doesn't
center around men's responsibility!"
The traditional, idealized view of marriage is the husband is sufficiently
economically successful that he can let his wife stay at home with the kids (if
she wishes). This is certainly the historic expectation.More &
more young males are concluding that expectation is difficult to achieve, and
certainly more tenuous than it has been historically. It used to be
that only slackers were fired. Now, even quite successful and competent people
get "displaced"... it's nothing personal, you know, it's just
business.And people wonder why young men (and even young women) are
hesitant to commit to marriage and raising a family? I'm not
excusing the "hook up" mentality, just explaining that there's some
legitimate economic underpinnings to this behavior beyond just young men being
averse to commitment because they want to be playboys.It's
exactly the same factors that are causing the birthrate to plummet among young
married couples. Economic anxiety. Lack of confidence that even if you work
hard and study hard you'll be able to provide a solid middle class life for
your family, without risk of becoming one of the 47%, a leech on society, an
embarrassment to your family.
A hundred years ago, generally speaking, a man married a virgin wife, usually
15-20 years old, and about 5-10 years younger than him. He earned the income
and fixed up the house. She gave him sex, took care of the children, fixed
every meal, cleaned the house, washed the clothes, darned socks, and followed
his direction. They had a houseful of kids, and never divorced.Today, most women have a better education and equal earning opportunities as
men. Most begin having sex as teenagers, perhaps 10 years before getting
married. Few women wish want to stay home, raise a houseful of children, and
cook, clean, wash, and care for the family. For young twenty-somethings in a
relationship, it is usually the woman that wants to get married, settle down,
and raise a kid or two. The man realizes that half of all marriages end in
divorce, and that he is then financially on the hook for child support payments
for 20 years. Unless the man is financially stable, really wants
kids, and is ready to settle down, he's better off waiting. Rushing into
marriage benefits no one.
Right now we are dealing with a daughter in an abusive relationship. She
didn't want to have sex before marriage, but he bullied her, called her a
whore, threatened to hurt her - and so she gave in. We read about it in her
journal which was left behind when she left our home to go to be with him.
It's been 2 years, and while she seems upbeat, the gleam has gone from her
eyes. She settled for less. She's only 20 and we hope she comes to her
senses. She would never have wanted that for herself when she felt strong, but
he wore her down.
@Mountanman"70% of babies born in many cities are to single
mothers."Newsflash conservatives: that number will only increase
if you ban abortion.
@The Real MaverickThe fact that you think an article stating that a
changing dating culture has consequences for women if they settle, is merely
"another doomsday article from the far right", actually says more about
the histrionics of the far-left (and explains why I am not one of them).I thought leftists claimed to like women (oh - that’s right - they
merely like power they derive from feigning concern for women, when in reality
they will gladly throw any noncompliant women under the bus if she does not tow
the party line)
Why is this something to which 'blame' must be assigned? Things
change; that's the story of humanity.
"Certainly not; but could our world be better? Certainly, yes!"Again, I ask, if the world is one big horrible place and is becoming worse and
worse then we should be subjecting fewer children not more to this hole of
hopelessness until we get this world fixed.
It's all about materialism and money now. Love takes a backseat to these
@ The Real Maverick;In spite of Mountainman's vague definition
of what constitutes a city, his point that the moral degradation of our country
is having serious consequences is not invalidated by that. Is it the end of the
world? Certainly not; but could our world be better? Certainly, yes!
The church is improving. These tarts are now only partially responsible.
My mother taught me something and I lived by it: You can't have the milk
without buying the cow. I deserved the best and would not settle for someone who
would not commit to me without marriage first. I've been happily married
for 23 years now. The cow won!
Ya'll can be a little nasty. Yikes. I'm for the traditional family
always. But I'm also for those that don't have that. I think we
should try to get people the best situation that we can. And
I'm part of the "new" generation and there aren't that many of
us putting out our "lines" hoping for a nibble. There is still common
sense out there, at least a little.
Just because someone isn't married and having kids by the time they're
twenty-two doesn't mean the world is coming to an end. Too much of this
article seems to be bemoaning women having more of a say instead of just sitting
around waiting to be "courted." If you want to get technical,
"traditional marriages" in history tended to be arranged by the parents
for the sake of property. Is that what we should go back to? pragmastistferlife is right: people and their societies change. The Utah
Mormon ideal isn't the only way to live.
@ Mountainman"Families are the incubator for all societies.
Destroy the family and you destroy society. We ignore that fact at our peril and
it matters not whether its Orem or Detroit."Thanks for
clarifying things for me. So essentially you have no idea what
you're talking about. A city could be New York City or Dayton, Idaho. Your
stats are meaningless as they have no definition or context. Take a stats 101
class. Good day to you sir.
"And no, I'm not arguing that doing the right thing will always get you
the right relationship you crave.But this much is true: While men
are wonderful, we women typically set the standard when it comes to
relationships. And social media aside, if we set it low, it will inevitably be
met."Women are sending out very strong messages about the
relationships they crave. Who wants to be settled for?
@ Real Maverick. Families are the incubator for all societies. Destroy the
family and you destroy society. We ignore that fact at our peril and it matters
not whether its Orem or Detroit.
Cannot read anything on this site because of Kennecot Copper's annoying pop
@ Mountainman"Want proof this is happening? 70% of babies born
in many cities are to single mothers."Is 70 percent of our
(newborn) population born in cities? How much of our population is born in
"cities?" What classifies "a city" as such? Is Orem a city? Is
Salt Lake a city? Is Chicago a city? What exactly is a "city?"So if the world is so bleak why should there be such a push to have kids?
Subjecting them to such a horrible life? The sky is falling the sky is falling!
higv said: "There are a few women that say things like I already dated you,
want to date other people, don't want to date same guy twice. Thing is it
takes two to tangle and some women put off marriage or turn down everyone
too."What ever happend to "settling?" hahahahahahaMorally casual city girls are to blame for 70% of Americas Problem, Got
You know conservatives, the world just simply changes, and people change with
it..get used to it. The wasup kids with their eyes glued to their phones, and
the attention span of a nat irritate the heck out of me when I'm around
them but then again my grandfather thought rock and roll would virtually destroy
the world, and look what it led to 30 years later..Ronald Regan..well maybe
that's a bad example but you get the point. I love when I grew
up. It was a sweet spot in world history for working folks that has been
destroyed now and probably won't be duplicated again, but then again
I'm white and male and didn't have a female boss until I was nearly
50...so the world changes. BTW, conservatives, the technology of social media
is the same technology of robotic manufacturing..productivity increases.
@ Real Maverick. Want proof this is happening? 70% of babies born in many cities
are to single mothers. Most crimes committed in America are perpetrated by young
men with no father in the home. The largest demographic of people living below
the poverty line in America is single mothers. You may call it doomsday
information from conservatives but the truth is conservatives have always stood
for family values. Its your side that embraces alternative lifestyles but
don't want the inevitable consequences. Think its bad out there now?
Doomsday or not,wait until the next generation of "liberated" from what
they call "stereotypes of family values" hits the streets!
There are a few women that say things like I already dated you, want to date
other people, don't want to date same guy twice. Thing is it takes two to
tangle and some women put off marriage or turn down everyone too.
Another doomsday article from the far right.If the world is going
into the toilet, why then is there such a push to date, marry, and have kids?
Why would we want to subject children to a world so bleak of hope and so dark as
conservatives want to portray it?
Why can't the DN have an article about men's responsibility in