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Comments about ‘Clinton joins other Dems in backing gay marriage’

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Published: Monday, March 18 2013 5:49 p.m. MDT

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Ophelia
Bountiful, UT

Just read new reliable ABC/Washington Post poll numbers, and I'm thrilled that people everywhere are changing and evolving on this issue. I'm especially thankful for the open-minded tolerance of youth. According to poll numbers 81% of young people under 30 support same-sex marriage! That's wonderful! Overall 58% of Americans support same-sex marriage.

Thank you, Hillary Clinton, for your support in this important civil rights issue, and thanks also goes to Republican Senator, Rob Portmanm as he takes a political gamble on behalf of his gay son and LGBT citizens everywhere.

worf
Mcallen, TX

What a surprise.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

Ophelia,

did hillary come out in support of the civil rights of polygamists? polyandries? Or is she still being bigoted like everyone else concerning multiple partner arrangements?

Contrarius
Lebanon, TN

@lost --

Nobody is born as a polygamist. In contrast, people are born as homosexuals -- or minority races -- or women -- every day. So the issues are completely different.

worf
Mcallen, TX

People are not born gay anymore then speaking German. It's learned.

May not remember how it started, but you're not born that way.

Contrarius
Lebanon, TN

@worf --

"People are not born gay anymore then speaking German. It's learned."

The scientific evidence is against you. Multiple studies have proven that the hypothalamus and other brain structures are measurably different between gay and straight men. And recent studies have also proven that human observers actually can tell "gay" faces apart from "straight" faces with a pretty high level of accuracy just by looking at them, even if they are only allowed to look for a fraction of a second.

These are physical -- inborn -- differences, not learned ones.

Look up studies by Simon LeVay, Eric Vilain, Ivanka Savic-Berglund, and Nicholas Rule for some examples of research in these areas.

lost in DC
West Jordan, UT

contrarius

gays are not now prevented from marrying, whether one believes they are born gay or not. They may be prevented from marrying who they want, just like polygamists and polyandries. So if hillary is calling for gays to be able to marry who they want, why is she still being bigoted against polygamists and polyandries by not calling for them to be allowed to marry who they want?

nice attempt at obfuscation, though.

amazondoc
USA, TN

@lost --

"gays are not now prevented from marrying, whether one believes they are born gay or not."

You're missing the point here.

A woman is already allowed to marry a man. But a man is NOT allowed to marry a man. And that is a violation of the Equal Protections clause of the US Constitution. The woman is already allowed a legal privilege (marrying a man) that the man is denied. That's discrimination by gender -- and gender discrimination is unconstitutional.

"just like polygamists and polyandries."

Nope, not just like polygamists (the word "polygamy", btw, covers both multiple men and multiple women. If you want to specify multiple women, it's "polygyny". Multiple men is "polyandry".)

"So if hillary is calling for gays to be able to marry who they want, why is she still being bigoted against polygamists and polyandries by not calling for them to be allowed to marry who they want?"

As I pointed out already, polygamists are not born -- they learn to be polygamists as they grow up. Homosexuals, however, are born. Therefore, legal protections for polygamists are very different than legal protections for homosexuals.

worf
Mcallen, TX

@Contrarius--that may be true in rare cases. I don't always believe in studies. I maintain the majority is learned behavior for whatever reason.

amazondoc
USA, TN

@worf --

"@Contrarius--that may be true in rare cases. I don't always believe in studies. I maintain the majority is learned behavior for whatever reason."

You can deny facts just as much as you like -- but that will never actually change the facts. And the fact is that there are physical differences, including differences in brain structure, between gay and homosexual men.

(btw -- both Contrarius and Amazondoc are me. I tried to post an explanatory message last night, but it seems to have been lost in the ether. I created a second account when the DN web site was acting up over the last couple of days. So please don't be confused, they're both me!)

worf
Mcallen, TX

amazondoc--our school teaching philosophies are ran by studies, yet more then half our population are on welfare. The studies are wrong, and not facts.

Studies show us having global warming. Nope! So now it's climate change.

Studies of gays being born that way? Can't buy it. Believe what you want.

Badger55
Nibley, Ut

It is a choice IMO. Studies are out there on both sides of the debate. So, claiming the validity of a subject because of a study or studies when there are also studies claiming the opposite, doesn't work. Give it 10 years, something will change. Studies are out there that show being raised by homosexual parents leaves a far more negative effect on their children. Studies are out that say it doesn't. It creates quite the conundrum and leaves me to believe there is not enough evidence to show a definitive answer.

If it is not a choice and people are born homosexual, how do you explain the fact that people switch from being homosexual to heterosexual and visa versa? Simple, they choose to.

Skin color and gender you are born with. yes, I know there have been cases where babies are born with both organs. There are also babies born without/with extra: arms, legs etc. But, that is an abnormality(meaning not normal) and you can't use examples like those for Darwinism and evolution as you cannot use the dual organ argument. Unless all homosexuals were born with both organs. Which they aren't

amazondoc
USA, TN

@Badger55 --

"Studies are out there on both sides of the debate."

There's a difference between sociological studies -- soft science -- and studies that find actual physical differences -- hard science. Physical differences are concrete and measurable, not fuzzy or open to much interpretation.

"Studies are out there that show being raised by homosexual parents leaves a far more negative effect on their children."

Where?? Name them.

"how do you explain the fact that people switch from being homosexual to heterosexual and visa versa?"

Sexual orientation is different than sexual behavior. Straight men may have sex with other men -- like in prisons -- but that doesn't mean they have become gay. Similarly, homosexual men may have sex with women, if society forces it upon them. That doesn't mean those gay men have suddenly become straight. Their orientation (inherent desire) remains the same.

"Yes, I know there have been cases where babies are born with both organs."

Gender identity and sexual orientation are much more complex and subtle phenomena than whether or not certain organs are present. Hormones, brain structures, and so on are all components of the processes determining identity and orientation. These are biological phenomena, not learned behaviors.

Badger55
Nibley, Ut

amazondoc
"Sexual orientation is different than sexual behavior."

I'm talking about people that profess being heterosexual then changing their minds and visa versa. Not getting raped or one night stands. How do you explain people that openly admit to being homosexual, then change their minds later in life? Society forced them? not a very good reason.

The problem you have with measuring the difference between adult homosexuals and adult heterosexuals is there is no way to gauge how they were at birth. Unless you can look at those same individuals at birth and compare their brains. which is impossible.
Do some research on studies. this forum wont allow links posted. at least it wont let me. Like you say, gender orientation is very complex. There are so many variables that contribute to human behavior it is nearly impossible to say certain people are born thinking one way or another. Unless, you can eliminate every variable, which you can't. The best people can do is guess.

If you disagree, then by your logic scientists could look at a newborns brain and determine whether they are going to be gay or not. Truth is, they can't.

Counter Intelligence
Salt Lake City, UT

@Contrarius

"Nobody is born as a polygamist."

Actually monogamy is NOT a normal genetic male construct (but one created by the taming influence of religion and social mores.)
Polygamy is the norm for many mammals (and other animals groups).
Polygamy has far more religious, sociological and historical precedent than gay marriage can ever claim to have
Nobody is born gay married either – so the point is not merely moot – it is silly

trueamerican
Huntsville, AL

No doubt she sees the gay vote as HUGE for her run for President. She would sell her own mother if you ask me.

Contrarius
Lebanon, TN

@Badger55

"I'm talking about people that profess being heterosexual then changing their minds and visa versa."

Again -- changing one's behavior (as with straight men in prison) doesn't mean that inherent desire has changed. And, yes, society forces people to do a lot of things that they wouldn't desire to do otherwise.

"The problem you have with measuring the difference between adult homosexuals and adult heterosexuals is there is no way to gauge how they were at birth."

Unless you can prove that learning is capable of physically changing structures within the brain, my point stands.

"Do some research on studies."

The only recent study I know of that supposedly found a disadvantage to being raised by gays or lesbians was a joke -- which is why I asked you for studies you knew of. In that study, the researcher took children raised by lesbian or gay parents -- MANY OR MOST OF WHOM WERE DIVORCED AND/OR SINGLE PARENTS -- and compared them to STABLE MARRIED COUPLES. Well, duhhhh, no surprise, children of divorce and single parenting very often DO perform worse than those in stable families. That has nothing to do with orientation whatsoever.

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