That is in an interesting example. I wonder if anyone can cite any religions
that have that as their doctrine?So should we get rid of the Bill of
Rights because someone can think of a hypothetical example where it is
inconvenient? A couple of solutios to this dilemma is not to have the
government not get involved in running people's lives. A second possible
solution is to allow for conscientious objectors. They did when there was a
draft. Certain religions, such as the Quakers, believed that killing, even in
wartime was immoral. Draft boards would evaluate requests for applicants
seeking to get a conscientous objector status. We could do the same.It beats revoking the Bill of Rights.
Personal sacred beliefs no longer apply. Obama won the election and government
now controls your ability to live according to the dictates of your conscience.
If I have religious beliefs that limit families to two children, can I, as an
employer, refuse to provide insurance for more than those two children
(including anything associated with the conception or pregnancy of any children
beyond the first two)?
Nicely put, David. We should not be bound by the religious belief of our
employer, or one another for that matter.
Employees are not bound.
The only person's religious beliefs that matter to a conservative are his
A recent study found that women who were given access to contraceptives at no
cost had abortion rates that were reduced by two-thirds compared to the general
population. Abortion rates have already fallen by 30% over the last thirty
years. A further two-thirds reduction would give us an abortion rate 76% lower
than it was in 1980.Those who are concerned about abortion should
welcome this development.
Great letter. Why do so many people who go on about getting the government out
of people's lives have no problem with using their religion to dictate how
Contraception is a matter of life and death for the unborn. The government is
not forcing anyone to take contraceptives - yet -, but they are forcing every
company to pay for contraceptives. They're forcing companies to provide
funding to prevent contraception and to pay for the destruction of the unborn if
an employee decides that having a baby after having had sex was not the
"ideal situation".Why would anyone equate respecting life
with mental illness? Is that the newest tactic being tweeted from the Oval
Exactly!And this is why if religious organizations (or individual
believers) want to engage in business or any other civic enterprise, the need to
obey the laws of the land just like everyone else. As none other
than Antonin Scalia said in deciding a similar SC case:"To
permit this (religious belief trumping law) would be to make the professed
doctrines of religious belief superior to the laws of the land, and in effect to
permit every citizen to become a law unto himself".
Good points.What if the employers are Christian Scientists who
believe that the treatment for medical ailments is prayer--not medicine?
Tekakaromatagi, one of my relatives belongs to a Christian sect that believes
that physical ills are the result of violations of basic biblical principles.
I don't know how they feel about health insurance or medical care, but they
definitely believe that you can cure yourself by aligning your behavior with
God's teachings. Plus I know that many Jehovah's Witnesses will die
before they will let someone give them a blood transfusions.I think
that mixing employer's religious beliefs with health insurance renders
reasonable healthcare reform unworkable!
MM, you've come up with some awfully outlandish comments, but this one
takes the cake. Thank you for letting us "liberals" (and even moderate
conservatives) understand what we're up against.
@ Mike Richards: Contraception, including the morning after pill and the 5 day
after pill prevent pregnancies from occurring by preventing ovulation. Once
fertilization has occurred, these pills are ineffective.
Maudine,Obama wants companies to do more than stop conception. His
plan is not just to prevent conception from occurring but to destroy the unborn
whenever the "mother" desires, even at the point of birth with late-term
abortions. Is he going to pay for those services? Of course not. He wants the
"rich guy" to pay for it. In this case, that "rich guy" is
anyone who employees anyone else.Can't you see his plan?
Isn't it clear? We are here on earth to learn how to control
our appetites and our passions. One of those appetites is sex. Are we so
unable to control thoughts and desires that we let our hormones dictate our
actions? Does anyone "need" a pill to prevent pregnancy, or do they
want the pill so that they don't have to learn self-control?Children are NOT a curse. They are a blessing. Destroying them after
conception is unthinkable. Preventing them from coming is almost as
unthinkable.Some think that life is just "party play time".
Our creator had the idea that we needed mortal life to learn to grow up and to
be responsible and to control our bodies.
QuestionTruthseeker"What if the employers are Christian
Scientists who believe that the treatment for medical ailments is prayer--not
medicine?"AnswerKDave"Employees are not
bound."Employees are free to choose who they work for. The real question is:When did we decide that enslaving employers
was the right and constitutional thing to do? The are being forced to work for
the insurance companies, for health care providers, and especially the drug and
medical equipment providers, and their well paid lobbyists, in many cases
against their will. Doesn't that violate the 13th amendment?And
when did the right to choose to consume something absolve a person from the need
to pay for what they consume? If you force someone else to pay for what you
consume, you are enslaving the person who pays. I don't know
why liberals don't get this concept. Earning and buying your own stuff is
freedom. Being forced to work for someone else's stuff is slavery. Getting
the stuff earned by someone else's forced labor makes you a slaveholder.Oh, wait.Maybe slavery is what liberals really want.
Maud you are wasting your breath on MR. He posts the same tired arguments no
matter what the discussion. He blames Obama for abortion when the President was
11 years old when the Supreme Court declared abortion legal under certain
circumstances in the USA. Health Insurance furnished by your
employer was a product of wage and price controls during WWII. It has long ago
outlived its usefulness as this discussion shows in spades. Employers want out
so get rid of it and this conversation goes away with health insurance as we
know it since individual healthcare would be too expensive for all but the top
ten percent or so to afford. Then lets renew the conversation about healthcare.
Tekakaromatagi says "A solution to this dilemma is not to have the
government not get involved in running people's lives".Actually, the far simpler solution is to eliminate employer-provided health
care plans. If employers aren't providing that insurance, then companies
are not involved in running people's lives.Employer-provided
health insurance began as a way for a company to have a competitive edge in
hiring workers. What was once a good thing is now turning to evil. Let's
I can always tell when someone has written a great letter. The repubs come out
of the woodwork and put forth lazy arguments like, "Maybe slavery is what
liberals really want." and "Obama won the election and government now
controls your ability to live according to the dictates of your
conscience."Thanks for the laughs!I cannot think of
a better case for a single payer system than the complaints repubs have made
against our current system. Why not go to a single payer system and let
religious employers be free from health care? Why should religions decide which
treatments or services they will provide? Get them out of the health care
business altogether! With a single payer system members of any
religious denomination can make the personal choices and not have their
employers make it for them.After Adam and Eve were created the Lord
gave them instructions and choice. He did not take away choice, as repubs
desire."Employees are free to choose who they work for."Where? In your GOP fantasy? Certainly not in the real world. Less choice
and complete economic stagnation. The results of your failed economic policies
feeding the rich while punishing the others.
@Mike Richards and Copy Cat (Mountanman too)Thank you for
demonstrating why it is increasingly difficult to take the Right seriously in
any rational discussion. The constant parroting of right wing media
exaggeration has reached such hyperbolic levels that it makes the boy who cried
wolf look like a stoic.
Employers paying for healthcare for their employees was a result of wage and
price controls during WWII. As such they have no rational reason to exist
today. End employer paid health care and two things will happen:1.
Employers will rejoice to be rid of the obligation. Employees will be the only
ones to decide what they choose for healthcare.2. Healthcare will
become so expensive that only the wealthy can afford it. That will cause (I
hope) a real discussion of how to curb health insurance costs in this country
instead of endlessly talking about repealing Obamacare.
Slavery still exists in America. Only now they call it by a different name.
Slaves are now called employees. While there may be some old slavery
in America, the new slavery called “employment” is most prevalent.
The main difference between the old and the new seems to be in the word
voluntary. Voluntary slavery is when a person agrees to put his freedom aside
and become a temporary slave for a time. Today’s slave owner,
know as a businessman, is much like the old slave owner and has the assumed
right to be very specific about when and how the employee comes and goes, what
he does and how he does it, and even tries to control the employee’s life
beyond the times specified for the slave status. The greatest
problem for the employee is the businessman’s constant and seemingly
effective efforts to make the voluntary part of employment involuntary. The
businessman does this by improper influence over government, touting
individualism to prevent group or union formation and flooding the labor market
with low paid workers. And blaming the employees if the business fails.
Who gave government the right to control wages, Grover? Nobody!. The
government took that right for themselves. Who gave government the right to
tell us that we can destroy a human being, as long as that human being somehow
remains the "property" of the mother. No one! The government took that
"right" to themselves. Who gave the government the right to dictate to
employers who they can hire and what benefits those employers must
"give" to their employees? No one! The government took that
"right" to themselves.Who gave one segment of the population
the right to demand that another segment of the population pay for their
healthcare, their food, their clothing, their housing and any other thing that
they want? No one! Obama is trying to make us believe that he has that right
and that part of the citizens in America have that right. The right to be safe
and secure in our possessions is guaranteed in the Constitution, but those who
attack the messenger don't much believe in the Constitution.Who
gave the government the right to decree that an employer has to pay to destroy
Roe vs. Wade has been the law of the land for 40 years now by decision of the
Supreme Court. I believe that the answer to most of JT questions are the same as
this one, the U.S. Constitution gave the people the right and by election we
gave the government the right. The Constitution specifies how Justices are to be
put on the Court. Forty years...let's see that would mean 4 for Obama, 8
for GWB, 8 for Clinton, 4 for GHWB, 8 for Reagan, 4 for Carter, and 4 for Nixon.
In summary, that would be 24 years with a Republican in the White House, and 16
for Democrats. During that time there have been considerable periods where one
party held both Houses of Congress and the White House and no legislation has
arisen to reverse Roe vs. Wade. The answer then to JT question:
"Who gave the government the right to" would be answered by the US
Constitution, the vote of the Supreme Court AND the majority vote (or not) of
the United States Congress. Questions?
@TekakaromatagiThere is a religion that belives that psychology is the
result of demonic type forces. It's called Scientology. Yes, they are a
recognized religion, and have all of the protections any Christian church has.
Ultra BobEmployees are slaves?? Seriously?? If you are being treated
like a slave, quit and go work somewhere else.Hate speech against
business owners will have a specific audience, but it is not the employees who
are being forced, unless it is by unions, who require them to pay dues to even
have a job."Voluntary slavery is when a person agrees to put his
freedom aside and become a temporary slave for a time."Voluntary
slavery is an oxymoron. Perhaps indentured servant, but not slavery."...flooding the labor market with low paid workers."Uh,
that would be the democrats who want all the currently illegal immigrants, aka a
flood of low paid workers, to stay here permanently and gain citizenship so the
democrats can reap the votes. Republicans are for a fence, e-verify, and
appropriate prosecution to protect American jobs.But I can see from
your rhetoric, that you feel entitled to regulate the employers and taxpayers
into being your slaves. This can end in one of 2 ways, you drive all businesses
under and everyone is hungry and poor, or the taxpayers wise up and revolt to
correct the injustice of their enslavement.
Whoa, the right wing is still talking about abortion? Folks, the
1970s called, they want their supreme court case back.Repubs,
abortion came and went. Time to get over it. Stop living in the past and join
the rest of us in the year 2013. It's no wonder why the GOP has
become such a regressive and oppressive group completely out of touch with
modern day America. What can you expect when you're living 40-50 years in
the past? Russia is no longer public enemy #1, we've cracked
the human genome (sorry folks, Darwin was right), abortion has been passed and
there's no turning back, America actually honors and respects immigrants,
minorities, and women now, and your economic policies of giving the rich
handouts have failed.Wake up repubs!
Where did FDR get Constitutional authority to dictate wages and benefits to
business? Which Article? Which Section? Which Clause? Which Court ignored the
Supreme Law of the Land when it allowed those illegal policies and practices?
Why does the Left demand that we continue to respect law breakers and law
breaking?Where is the Court regarding due process and equality, both
issues guaranteed by the Constitution, when it applies to 55,000,000 Americans
destroyed in the womb by government policies and judges who pretend that no law
governs their decisions?Where is the Court now when the Federal
government is dictating to establishments of religion that they must fund
practices that violate their religious doctrine?How carefully the
Left has led this nation to the brink of moral destruction!How lazy
the people are who reject their responsibility to speak out against a government
that is trampling the Constitution!
'His plan is not just to prevent conception from occurring but to destroy
the unborn whenever the "mother" desires, even at the point of birth
with late-term abortions.'..."His plan"..where in the world do you
come up with this stuff? Also if you personally believe that a fertilized egg
is a human baby fine, believe what you will, but Mr. constitutionalist you have
no standing to trump your belief as fact in public policy discussions and
dismiss the beliefs and even the facts and constitutional rights of
others..because it isn't a fact it's a belief.
Maverick, Grover, and others fill in the details well..but one of the
Republicans own gave a great macro assessment last week when he said, The
Repbulicans have all the right answers..they are just for a world that
doesn't exsist anymore.
pragmatistferlife - "one of the Republicans own gave a great macro
assessment last week when he said, The Repbulicans have all the right
answers..they are just for a world that doesn't exsist anymore."Great quote! Who gave the speech?
Copy Cat.In the absence of Jesus, the best thing we have come up
with for the escape from the jungle is a concept called civilization.
Civilization is where a group of people come together to form a society for the
purpose of doing things that individuals can not do by themselves. Membership and participation in the society, whether voluntary or involuntary,
requires acceptance and adherence established rules and policies of the society.
We regard the goodness of a society according to the welfare and equality of
the members. Business is the prerogative of the society. Business
operations are allowed according to the needs of the society. Thus the primary
and essential purpose of a business operation is to serve the society wherein it
exists. That service consists of distributing and redistributing the products,
services and money to allow maximum synergy to happen within the society. When business starts to fail it’s obligation to the society it is
time to change the rules.
Tyler D, I'll have to go look up the name again. It was one of Bush's
speech writers. His name was something like Greco. I've save it.
If your work sponsored insurance plan does not cover contraceptive,
abortofacient drugs, or sterilization (or your counselor or twelve step
programs, etc); no-one is stopping you from getting them yourself or buying
supplemental insurance to do so.If I work for an orthodox Jew I may not be
able to make money on Saturday either – does that make me a victim?The idea that you are oppressed because someone else will not pay for
your free stuff is completely ludicrous: Those forcing others to pay for things
against their will are the perpetrators – not the victims.This
is why the hard left has so little credibility: They talk “choice’
but, have NO tolerance for anyone who actually makes a different
KJB1, any body who wants contraceptives can buy their own, They don't need
to be subsidized by others who do not want to be forced to subsidize them.. You
are the one dictating his/her beliefs on others.
"When did we decide that enslaving employers was the right and
constitutional thing to do?" Well, Copy Cat, a long time ago actually. Sorry
you don't know your history very well. And it is not enslavement, it is
called regulation. "Getting the stuff earned by someone
else's forced labor makes you a slaveholder." This comment is absolute
nonsense. Forced labor. Please. Ridiculous. Oh, wait, maybe you
don't understand what forced labor is. Yeah, that must be it. Well, what we
are talking about is not forced labor.Ayn Rand's philosophy is
very flawed, sorry. Man, conservatives are a sad lot.
1coveyWe must all pay for things that do not always conform to our
moral beliefs. I think the death penalty and unneeded wars are morally
reprehensible yet I still must pay taxes to support these activities. If Hobby
Lobby wants to participate in the open market then they must follow the same
laws as everyone else. Their religious beliefs do not supersede the health needs
of their employees. Your argument is a perfect example as to why
employers need to be removed from the entire health care equation and a
single-payer system become implemented in this nation.
If you want a theocracy, don't let the door hit you on the way out. There
absolutely NO WAY to allow all theologies to be included in a constitutional
LAW. But I understand, you just want YOUR religion codified in the
law not everyone's. A soon as a Muslim wants something made into law
you'll be shouting, "SHARIA LAW!!!" again.Your Sharia
Law is no better than anyone else's.