One thing is correct, NAFTA was sols to the American people as and end to
illegal immigration. Our legal immigration helps the US meet our
needs when administered properly. Illegal immigration does not. How does
allowing 4 million people into the county legally on visas and green cards help,
when we have 23 million people looking for full time work?The help
wanted signs is not totally accurate, the ones put out by business were illegal,
we also need to acknowledge that the open border movement, including ethnic
groups, churches and organizations put out the welcome mat. If you read the
stories in the paper, the majority came here looking for work. They did not have
a job promised them.America has a vibrant community of young people.
To say otherwise insults our youth and places those here above them.We need to enforce our laws, it's the only answer to controlling our
borders, There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants.
One helps the country, and one is a burden that hurts the moral fabric of our
Illegal immigration helps no one. American citizens are displaced in the
workforce. Taxpayers pay to feed, clothe, educate, and medicate those who
ignored our laws. To add further insult, money earned by working illegally is
often sent out of the country, further destroying the economy.Laws
are in place to allow qualified workers to immigrate. Those workers contribute
to our revenue base; they don't expect us to become their parents.When writers justify dishonesty because they have friends and family who
entered America illegally, they do both themself and their readers a great
disservice. Integrity demands that newspapers do not endorse lawlessness just
because a columnist thinks that paying slave wages to illegal immigrants somehow
improves the economy.
Smartest article yet about the immigration issue in the DN. The disconnects
aren't in the boarder or in the public policies of who and what is legal,
the disconnects are in the economics and how we view the realities of those
economics. The first poster asks "How does allowing 4 million
people into the county legally on visas and green cards help, when we have 23
million people looking for full time work?". John answers that question
with his recounting of how America has always used immigrants/cheap labor to
build our infrastructure..and we still rely on this labor today, it's just
less organized than it was a 100 years ago and it's used privately today
rather than publicly. If you could wave a wand and make all "illegal"
workers disapear, you'd see an instant collapse of the American
construction, and service industries. It doesn't make any difference how
many "citizens" are out of work, it only matters what we are willing to
pay for the work available. My bet is that "illegal"
immigration will never be solved until we stop re-trenching, and start
re-structruing..basicly what John was saying.
Excellent editorial. And, Mike Richards, it is factually inaccurate to say that
immigrants harm our economy.
The anti-immigrant extremists must now realize they are the minority.
I agree with Mr. Florez... except that we should encourage immigrants from
Europe instead of Latin America. We have an over abundance of Hispanics and we
need a better mix of ethnicity from around the world. I suggest that, if you
are Hispanic and illegal you need to go to the back of the amnesty/citizenship
line until America's ethnic mix is evened out. That's my opinion.
@pragmatistferlife:"John answers that question with his recounting of
how America has always used immigrants/cheap labor to build our
infrastructure..and we still rely on this labor today..."The
bottom line is, we don't need illegals to maintain/run our economy. The
fact of the matter is, we have 23 million unemployed sitting home drawing
unemployment checks while 11 to 20 million illegals (eagerly) gobble up jobs.
The economic fact is, the unemployed makes about the same on unemployment
benefits as the illegal makes in wages so, why should the unemployed make an
effort to go to work doing menial jobs when they can sit home playing with their
ipads and enjoying their 99 weeks of free money?"If you could
wave a wand and make all 'illegal' workers disapear, you'd see an
instant collapse of the American construction, and service industries."To make it work you'd have to stop extending unemployment benefits
thus forcing unemployed Americans to get to work, any work. Then enforce
E-verify. Illegals would slowly drift back to their native countries. And
American wages would begin to rise. An over abundance of labor (illegal or
otherwise) depresses wages.
I agree with the headline and the lead of this article, we need a new economic
engine for our society. Business has always provided the pump that
made the money flow is our economy giving our civilization greater and greater
benefit to people. However, business is failing it main function of the pump
as a result of the events noted. A new pump strategy is needed. A
new pump can be effected by the ending of unemployment. Human labor is obsolete
and so a very critical part of the economy is missing. That’s the part
that recycles money back to the working people. The government
should hire every unemployed person and end the problem of unemployment forever.
Business who had previously handled this function should be made to pay for the
cost. Business must pay for employment either by hiring or by tax. If business
would hire all the employable the tax would be zero. Without
unemployment, there would not be an immigration problem.
If/when we were to grant amnesty to 25 million low income "new"
Americans the first year costs of government benefits alone would be close to
300 billion.We have absolutely no reason to believe there
wouldn't be another 20 million following behind them.Also,
there have been many posters on this forum who are employed in the high tech
industry that say employers claiming they can't get skilled workers (H1B
visas)are simply trying to cut their wage costs by employing non-citizens, then
hoping they will be granted citizenship so the employers don't have to
bother paying the prevailing wages for high tech workers.Its not really an
'R' or 'D' issue. BOTH political parties should be
interested in obeying the law and preserving jobs for their (legal)citizens.Why don't they?
--“Insanity is doing the same thing in the same way & expecting a
different outcome?”In conclusion, the only poll worth its salt
is Rasmussen Reports as most of the others are craftily worded to gain
satisfaction for the open border zealots and special interest entities. By
observing the thousands of comments, blogs and articles not associated with the
Liberal Progressives one can collect a much better indicator of what the average
working American is thinking and that is NOT a Path to Citizenship or AMNESTY?
So Alfred your little hire the unemployed in all the low paying jobs would only
work as a long term solution as long as the unemployed didn't consistently
make more in their previous jobs. Other wise you simply require a computer
programer to go to work mowing lawns for 19 weeks rather than have the time to
look for work, then when the 19 weeks of low paid labor is over she's still
out of work that will maintain her previous life style and has no benefits to
support her now necessary job search.You reveal yourself with your
"sit home and play with their i pads" comment.
The myth persists that immigrants take jobs from us and are a burden on our
welfare system. The truth is that immigrants create more jobs than they take
and use fewer social benefits than our own native citizens. Even undocumented
workers pay most taxes, despite claims to the contrary. Meanwhile they work
harder for less, provide a larger base of young workers to help balance our
age-heavy population profile, and are more law-abiding than our native
residents.Another myth is that we immigration supporters want open
borders. False. We believe in controlling smuggling and the entry of
terrorists or other dangerous elements. Doesn't everyone? But workers are
not dangerous, nor are their families. Did anyone notice that we actually
experienced a net negative immigration flow between the U.S. and Mexico
following the 2008 bank failure recession? Some of our guest workers actually
found better conditions by returning to Mexico.We will not be
swamped with immigrants if we were to issue enough visas to meet the demand.I thought conservatives supported the principles of open markets and
We are back to using the word immigrant to describe legal and illegal
immigrants? I think we all know the difference. Legally and
@pragmatistferlife:"So Alfred your little hire the unemployed in all
the low paying jobs would only work as a long term solution as long as the
unemployed didn't consistently make more in their previous jobs."Whaaat?The reason we have unemployed while illegals are
employed is because the unemployed can get the government to pay them
unemployment benefits. Cut the benefits off and the unemployed will be forced
to find work to put food on the table."Otherwise you simply
require a computer programer to go to work mowing lawns..."If a
computer programer can't find work, it means simply that there's no
computer programer jobs... So, why should the government pay her to sit home
(with her ipad) when other types of work are available?Send the
illegals packing so unemployed Americans can get jobs. Do this and wages will
eventually rise... It's an economic fact that illegal workers (or any
type) flooding the labor market keeps wages depressed."You
reveal yourself with your 'sit home and play with their i pads'
comment."No, no. I revealed what the unemployed do when they
are sitting home on the government dole.
As Greenspan said, they provide a flexible labor force, to assure business has a
oversupply of cheap labor. The result is depressed wages for the American
worker. In 1979 testimony to Congress, Chavez complained, "...
when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to
Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to
break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization
Service has looked the other way and assisted in the strikebreaking. I do not
remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration service has
removed strikebreakers. We stop it now with enforcement, or we hurt
our countries poor, and the legal immigrants. The construction industry, once a
goldmine for the middle class, has been given the shaft.
Many people are unemployed because cheap illegal labor is willing to work for a
salary that cannot sustain an American family. I have never seen a
business ad to hire people here illegally, where can these ads be found? The best way to handle this situation came from Brigham Young. "If your neighbor commits an evil upon another of your neighbors, you are
under obligations to see that the person who has committed the evil be suitably
chastised, as much so as though the wrong had been committed upon you. Now this
is hard to believe; but if you wish to correct people, and lead them to life and
salvation, what difference is it where the evil is committed, or upon whom? Is
it not the duty of a minister of God to correct evil and take it from an
individual or from the people, and place them upon saving ground, whenever an
opportunity presents itself? It is the duty of every individual. " Brigham
Young, vol. 8, pp. 364-368 JOD
Alfred..here's the crux of your argument and anger.."So, why should the
government pay her to sit home (with her ipad) when other types of work are
available?"..and here's "Whaaat?". Because she's worked
hard all of her life gone to school trained for a job that contributes to the
economic well being of our country, paid into a social saftey net program all of
her working years so that when through no fault of her own she loses her job she
gets up to 19 weeks to find another comparable job so that she can continue to
be self reliant and contributory. The point of unempolyment
insurance is the time to allow someone to find comparable work. A $40 an hour
programmer working for $10 an hour raking leaves may make you feel better but
it's a massive mis-allocation of resources for the economy, distorting free
markets for decades. You need to go read up on your conservative economics.
There are other (liberal) ways to mis allocate resources..but you are proposing
a classic conservative one.
@John C. C.:"The myth persists that immigrants take jobs from
us..."That's not a myth. If they work here and we have
high unemployment (and we do) they are taking jobs from Americans."...and are a burden on our welfare system."They are a
burden. They generally take low paying jobs and thus, pay no income taxes yet
they get free education, free healthcare, etc."The truth is that
immigrants create more jobs than they take..."The truth is, they
take jobs that our unemployed should be taking."Even
undocumented workers pay most taxes..."Pshaw! They generally
pay zero, zip, nada income taxes."Meanwhile they provide a
larger base of young workers to help balance our age-heavy population
profile..."Why do you think we need such a balance? Older
workers work just as hard and probably even harder."We believe
in controlling smuggling and the entry of terrorists or other dangerous
elements."What's your secret for discovering who's a
terrorist and who ain't?"We will not be swamped with
immigrants if we were to issue enough visas to meet the demand."We have enough unemployed Americans (23 million) to meet demands.
Why should a computer programer work for $10, when Congress is looking to give
visas to more computer programers, because we have a shortage? Immigration is about the law. Come here legal, or come here illegally and
commit multiple felonies to work. More jobs than workers, wages go
upMore workers than jobs? Wages go down. The economics of illegal
immigration show that surplus labor drives wages down. Wonder why the gap
between rich and poor has widened the past 30 years?Email your
congressman now, or your children will inherit a third world country.
Mr. Bean, I know it seems weird that those who come here actually create jobs,
but here’s how it goes:They have families who are also
consumers. More consumption equals more jobs.They generally take
the lower paying jobs. That means more employees who need supervisors and
clerical staff. That creates higher paying jobs for us natives. They do pay taxes (check your sources) to help hire more government, school
and other service professionals.Most interesting of all is that they
are generally more ambitious and more entrepreneurial than us natives. They
create new businesses at a higher rate than we do, and thus end up hiring local
natives. I could name quite a few of my neighbors that work for businesses
started up in the last ten year by newly arrived Latino families from our
southern neighbors, and about half of their employees are local natives.Joblessness? They generally take different jobs than the locals do.
Most of these jobs go unclaimed unless they are filled by guest workers. Just
ask your local ranchers, farmers, orchard owners, or the whole state of Alabama.
Undocumented workers do pay most taxes.Income Taxes: It is a common
claim that they don’t pay taxes. To be sure, some of them don’t pay
some taxes. But according to the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy at
least half of unauthorized immigrants DO pay income taxes--federal, state, and
local. Similar reports come from the IRS and the nonpartisan Congressional
Budget Office. Sales Taxes: They certainly can’t avoid sales
taxes. Property Taxes: If they own, they pay. If they rent, their
landlord pays property tax from their rent money. Payroll Taxes: I
concede that some undocumented workers are paid “under the table.”
But according to a report by Standard and Poor’s analysts Social Security
receives $6 to $7 billion in payroll taxes per year from undocumented workers
even though they won’t qualify to benefit from them. We, the
retiring baby-boomers, need a supply of young workers. Unfortunately we U.S.
natives no longer raise enough children to replace ourselves. Check the census
So, the big question is what's in it for DesNews, KSL, and its owner? Why
have they pushed so hard in favor of illegal immigration? If they would honestly
answer this question, it would help with dialogue. Why can't they be honest
about this? Dishing out propaganda only makes the thinking public suspicious,
and the ignorant compliant.
Immigration is an economic problem? Silly me, I thought it had to do with human
beings. I guess we look at ourselves in terms of dollar signs these days.
John ccIt's the legal immigrants that start jobs, most fail in the
first year. People here illegally are a burden. They file taxes, and get back
4.2 billion in earned child refunds that they are not entitled to (claiming
children that don't exist, or nieces and nephews that live in other
countries). America pays over 113 billion each year to subsidize people here
illegally as cheap labor for business. Most don't earn enough to file
taxes, but do for the tax credits. If a person is paying income taxes, they are
taking a high paying job from an American. This article talks about
vibrant youth, America has it's own. And if they worked harder, countries
south of the border would be industrial giants. How a person works is not
related to their ethnic group, or legal status, it's the person. Most of the arguments you used were for legal immigrants. Mixing the two is an
insult to America's people.
John cc The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 was opposed
by agricultural interests because the employer sanctions against hiring illegal
aliens adopted in that law were perceived as likely to end the supply of illegal
aliens and financially ruin the producers. To ease their fears, a provision was
adopted in the law that allowed for a supply of "replenishment agricultural
workers" to be admitted if a labor shortage were found to exist. To
determine whether a shortage was arising, the Department of Labor set up a
National Agricultural Worker Survey, and a national bipartisan Commission on
Agricultural Workers.The Commission completed its study and reported
to Congress that there was an oversupply of farm labor. The new employers
sanction measures had failed to deter the influx of illegal aliens and the
surplus of labor was condemning agricultural workers to continue to toil in
deteriorating wage and work site conditions. All governmental reports since that
time have echoed the same conclusion. According to the executive director of
the California Institute for Rural Studies "In terms of constant dollars,
there's been a significant decline in wages, we think by over 25 percent,
over the last 20 years."
I need to re post my comment. I will blame the spelling errors, grammar on cold
medication. One thing is correct, NAFTA was sold to the American
people as an end to illegal immigration.Our legal immigration helps
the US meet our needs when administered properly. Illegal immigration does not.
How does allowing 4 million people into the county legally on visas and green
cards help, when we have 23 million people looking for full time work?The help wanted sign is not totally accurate, they would be illegal, we need
to acknowledge that the open border movement, including ethnic groups, churches
and organizations, put out the welcome mat. If you read the stories in the
paper, the majority came here looking for work. They did not have a job promised
them before they came.America has a vibrant community of young
people. To say otherwise insults our youth.We need to enforce our
laws in country, it's the only answer to controlling our borders,There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. One helps the
country, and one is a burden that hurts the moral fabric of America.
"Unfortunately we U.S. natives no longer raise enough children to replace
ourselves. Check the census reports." ---John C. C"U.S.
replacement rate is still close to 2. And it has dropped in the past and then
bounced back up again, said Ventura, an official at the CDC's National
Center for Health Statistics."Down for 4 years during the
recession, it's still .1 below replacement rate, but rising last year, a
sign births are on the rise. And Hispanic immigrants won't help, their
numbers are now below replacement rate. We can't pay our bills
by letting in more people. That's a pyramid scheme that will soon run out
of people and resources. When this generation gets ready to retire, we will need
to let in 70 million to support them. Amnesty would give citizenship and full
rights to social services to 11-15 million people that did not work their full
career here. They came here and worked against the law. As people,
they are subject to the laws of the land. Even the people brought here as
children, as they had a path to being legal at 18.
I agree with Eric S & one vote earlier in this thread. It would seem that
Mike R and his kind have conveniently forgotten what is inscribed on the Statue
of Liberty... "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled
masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send
these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
The poem on the Statue of liberty welcomed legal immigrants. Illegal immigrants
never passed through it's doors.