Comments about ‘Immigration is an economic issue’

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Published: Saturday, Feb. 9 2013 12:00 a.m. MST

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SLars
Provo, UT

One thing is correct, NAFTA was sols to the American people as and end to illegal immigration.

Our legal immigration helps the US meet our needs when administered properly. Illegal immigration does not. How does allowing 4 million people into the county legally on visas and green cards help, when we have 23 million people looking for full time work?

The help wanted signs is not totally accurate, the ones put out by business were illegal, we also need to acknowledge that the open border movement, including ethnic groups, churches and organizations put out the welcome mat. If you read the stories in the paper, the majority came here looking for work. They did not have a job promised them.

America has a vibrant community of young people. To say otherwise insults our youth and places those here above them.

We need to enforce our laws, it's the only answer to controlling our borders,

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. One helps the country, and one is a burden that hurts the moral fabric of our country.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

Illegal immigration helps no one. American citizens are displaced in the workforce. Taxpayers pay to feed, clothe, educate, and medicate those who ignored our laws. To add further insult, money earned by working illegally is often sent out of the country, further destroying the economy.

Laws are in place to allow qualified workers to immigrate. Those workers contribute to our revenue base; they don't expect us to become their parents.

When writers justify dishonesty because they have friends and family who entered America illegally, they do both themself and their readers a great disservice. Integrity demands that newspapers do not endorse lawlessness just because a columnist thinks that paying slave wages to illegal immigrants somehow improves the economy.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Smartest article yet about the immigration issue in the DN. The disconnects aren't in the boarder or in the public policies of who and what is legal, the disconnects are in the economics and how we view the realities of those economics.

The first poster asks "How does allowing 4 million people into the county legally on visas and green cards help, when we have 23 million people looking for full time work?". John answers that question with his recounting of how America has always used immigrants/cheap labor to build our infrastructure..and we still rely on this labor today, it's just less organized than it was a 100 years ago and it's used privately today rather than publicly. If you could wave a wand and make all "illegal" workers disapear, you'd see an instant collapse of the American construction, and service industries. It doesn't make any difference how many "citizens" are out of work, it only matters what we are willing to pay for the work available.

My bet is that "illegal" immigration will never be solved until we stop re-trenching, and start re-structruing..basicly what John was saying.

Eric Samuelsen
Provo, UT

Excellent editorial. And, Mike Richards, it is factually inaccurate to say that immigrants harm our economy.

one vote
Salt Lake City, UT

The anti-immigrant extremists must now realize they are the minority.

wrz
Ogden, UT

I agree with Mr. Florez... except that we should encourage immigrants from Europe instead of Latin America. We have an over abundance of Hispanics and we need a better mix of ethnicity from around the world. I suggest that, if you are Hispanic and illegal you need to go to the back of the amnesty/citizenship line until America's ethnic mix is evened out. That's my opinion.

Alfred
Ogden, UT

@pragmatistferlife:
"John answers that question with his recounting of how America has always used immigrants/cheap labor to build our infrastructure..and we still rely on this labor today..."

The bottom line is, we don't need illegals to maintain/run our economy. The fact of the matter is, we have 23 million unemployed sitting home drawing unemployment checks while 11 to 20 million illegals (eagerly) gobble up jobs. The economic fact is, the unemployed makes about the same on unemployment benefits as the illegal makes in wages so, why should the unemployed make an effort to go to work doing menial jobs when they can sit home playing with their ipads and enjoying their 99 weeks of free money?

"If you could wave a wand and make all 'illegal' workers disapear, you'd see an instant collapse of the American construction, and service industries."

To make it work you'd have to stop extending unemployment benefits thus forcing unemployed Americans to get to work, any work. Then enforce E-verify. Illegals would slowly drift back to their native countries. And American wages would begin to rise. An over abundance of labor (illegal or otherwise) depresses wages.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

I agree with the headline and the lead of this article, we need a new economic engine for our society.

Business has always provided the pump that made the money flow is our economy giving our civilization greater and greater benefit to people. However, business is failing it main function of the pump as a result of the events noted. A new pump strategy is needed.

A new pump can be effected by the ending of unemployment. Human labor is obsolete and so a very critical part of the economy is missing. That’s the part that recycles money back to the working people.

The government should hire every unemployed person and end the problem of unemployment forever. Business who had previously handled this function should be made to pay for the cost. Business must pay for employment either by hiring or by tax. If business would hire all the employable the tax would be zero.

Without unemployment, there would not be an immigration problem.

Fitness Freak
Salt Lake City, UT

If/when we were to grant amnesty to 25 million low income "new" Americans the first year costs of government benefits alone would be close to 300 billion.

We have absolutely no reason to believe there wouldn't be another 20 million following behind them.

Also, there have been many posters on this forum who are employed in the high tech industry that say employers claiming they can't get skilled workers (H1B visas)are simply trying to cut their wage costs by employing non-citizens, then hoping they will be granted citizenship so the employers don't have to bother paying the prevailing wages for high tech workers.
Its not really an 'R' or 'D' issue. BOTH political parties should be interested in obeying the law and preserving jobs for their (legal)citizens.

Why don't they?

Casca
Orleans, IN

--“Insanity is doing the same thing in the same way & expecting a different outcome?”

In conclusion, the only poll worth its salt is Rasmussen Reports as most of the others are craftily worded to gain satisfaction for the open border zealots and special interest entities. By observing the thousands of comments, blogs and articles not associated with the Liberal Progressives one can collect a much better indicator of what the average working American is thinking and that is NOT a Path to Citizenship or AMNESTY?

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

So Alfred your little hire the unemployed in all the low paying jobs would only work as a long term solution as long as the unemployed didn't consistently make more in their previous jobs. Other wise you simply require a computer programer to go to work mowing lawns for 19 weeks rather than have the time to look for work, then when the 19 weeks of low paid labor is over she's still out of work that will maintain her previous life style and has no benefits to support her now necessary job search.

You reveal yourself with your "sit home and play with their i pads" comment.

John C. C.
Payson, UT

The myth persists that immigrants take jobs from us and are a burden on our welfare system. The truth is that immigrants create more jobs than they take and use fewer social benefits than our own native citizens. Even undocumented workers pay most taxes, despite claims to the contrary. Meanwhile they work harder for less, provide a larger base of young workers to help balance our age-heavy population profile, and are more law-abiding than our native residents.

Another myth is that we immigration supporters want open borders. False. We believe in controlling smuggling and the entry of terrorists or other dangerous elements. Doesn't everyone? But workers are not dangerous, nor are their families. Did anyone notice that we actually experienced a net negative immigration flow between the U.S. and Mexico following the 2008 bank failure recession? Some of our guest workers actually found better conditions by returning to Mexico.

We will not be swamped with immigrants if we were to issue enough visas to meet the demand.

I thought conservatives supported the principles of open markets and free trade.

RichardB
Murray, UT

We are back to using the word immigrant to describe legal and illegal immigrants?

I think we all know the difference. Legally and economically.

Alfred
Ogden, UT

@pragmatistferlife:
"So Alfred your little hire the unemployed in all the low paying jobs would only work as a long term solution as long as the unemployed didn't consistently make more in their previous jobs."

Whaaat?

The reason we have unemployed while illegals are employed is because the unemployed can get the government to pay them unemployment benefits. Cut the benefits off and the unemployed will be forced to find work to put food on the table.

"Otherwise you simply require a computer programer to go to work mowing lawns..."

If a computer programer can't find work, it means simply that there's no computer programer jobs... So, why should the government pay her to sit home (with her ipad) when other types of work are available?

Send the illegals packing so unemployed Americans can get jobs. Do this and wages will eventually rise... It's an economic fact that illegal workers (or any type) flooding the labor market keeps wages depressed.

"You reveal yourself with your 'sit home and play with their i pads' comment."

No, no. I revealed what the unemployed do when they are sitting home on the government dole.

RichardB
Murray, UT

As Greenspan said, they provide a flexible labor force, to assure business has a oversupply of cheap labor. The result is depressed wages for the American worker.

In 1979 testimony to Congress, Chavez complained, "... when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization Service has looked the other way and assisted in the strikebreaking. I do not remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration service has removed strikebreakers.

We stop it now with enforcement, or we hurt our countries poor, and the legal immigrants. The construction industry, once a goldmine for the middle class, has been given the shaft.

RRB
SLC, UT

Many people are unemployed because cheap illegal labor is willing to work for a salary that cannot sustain an American family.

I have never seen a business ad to hire people here illegally, where can these ads be found?

The best way to handle this situation came from Brigham Young.
"If your neighbor commits an evil upon another of your neighbors, you are under obligations to see that the person who has committed the evil be suitably chastised, as much so as though the wrong had been committed upon you. Now this is hard to believe; but if you wish to correct people, and lead them to life and salvation, what difference is it where the evil is committed, or upon whom? Is it not the duty of a minister of God to correct evil and take it from an individual or from the people, and place them upon saving ground, whenever an opportunity presents itself? It is the duty of every individual. " Brigham Young, vol. 8, pp. 364-368 JOD

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Alfred..here's the crux of your argument and anger.."So, why should the government pay her to sit home (with her ipad) when other types of work are available?"..and here's "Whaaat?". Because she's worked hard all of her life gone to school trained for a job that contributes to the economic well being of our country, paid into a social saftey net program all of her working years so that when through no fault of her own she loses her job she gets up to 19 weeks to find another comparable job so that she can continue to be self reliant and contributory.

The point of unempolyment insurance is the time to allow someone to find comparable work. A $40 an hour programmer working for $10 an hour raking leaves may make you feel better but it's a massive mis-allocation of resources for the economy, distorting free markets for decades. You need to go read up on your conservative economics. There are other (liberal) ways to mis allocate resources..but you are proposing a classic conservative one.

Mr. Bean
Ogden, UT

@John C. C.:
"The myth persists that immigrants take jobs from us..."

That's not a myth. If they work here and we have high unemployment (and we do) they are taking jobs from Americans.

"...and are a burden on our welfare system."

They are a burden. They generally take low paying jobs and thus, pay no income taxes yet they get free education, free healthcare, etc.

"The truth is that immigrants create more jobs than they take..."

The truth is, they take jobs that our unemployed should be taking.

"Even undocumented workers pay most taxes..."

Pshaw! They generally pay zero, zip, nada income taxes.

"Meanwhile they provide a larger base of young workers to help balance our age-heavy population profile..."

Why do you think we need such a balance? Older workers work just as hard and probably even harder.

"We believe in controlling smuggling and the entry of terrorists or other dangerous elements."

What's your secret for discovering who's a terrorist and who ain't?

"We will not be swamped with immigrants if we were to issue enough visas to meet the demand."

We have enough unemployed Americans (23 million) to meet demands.

prelax
Murray, UT

Why should a computer programer work for $10, when Congress is looking to give visas to more computer programers, because we have a shortage?

Immigration is about the law. Come here legal, or come here illegally and commit multiple felonies to work.

More jobs than workers, wages go up
More workers than jobs? Wages go down.
The economics of illegal immigration show that surplus labor drives wages down. Wonder why the gap between rich and poor has widened the past 30 years?

Email your congressman now, or your children will inherit a third world country.

John C. C.
Payson, UT

Mr. Bean, I know it seems weird that those who come here actually create jobs, but here’s how it goes:

They have families who are also consumers. More consumption equals more jobs.

They generally take the lower paying jobs. That means more employees who need supervisors and clerical staff. That creates higher paying jobs for us natives.

They do pay taxes (check your sources) to help hire more government, school and other service professionals.

Most interesting of all is that they are generally more ambitious and more entrepreneurial than us natives. They create new businesses at a higher rate than we do, and thus end up hiring local natives. I could name quite a few of my neighbors that work for businesses started up in the last ten year by newly arrived Latino families from our southern neighbors, and about half of their employees are local natives.

Joblessness? They generally take different jobs than the locals do. Most of these jobs go unclaimed unless they are filled by guest workers. Just ask your local ranchers, farmers, orchard owners, or the whole state of Alabama.

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