Re Copy CatI don't believe it is socially acceptable to
mistreat Mormons or white people or other Christians. Fat people? Not really
that acceptable either. Many Evengelical Christians believe the earth or
universe is 12,000 years old and I have seen ridicule of this belief because
there is so much evidence to refute it, but that's about it.
Pagan, Massachussetts' divorce rate is low because the state's
*marriage* rate is low. You can't get divorced if you don't get
married. - TheProudDuckAnd yet, Massachusetts was the first state to
allow gay marriage in 2004. Today, in 2013 you can cite zero adverse
effects of gay marriage. Even the article I provided was x5 years after gay
marriage was legal in MA.Please, keep up. x5 years after
gay marriage, MA has the lowest divorce rate, since the 1940's.Zero adverse effect.
cjb "It used to be socially unacceptableto have premartial sex,
but acceptable tomistreat people who were a different race.Now its
just the opposite."I disagree. It is no longer socially
acceptable to mistreat people of certain colors or certain religions, but it is
acceptable to mistreat people of other colors, religions, and size. All we have
done is change the protected class.Groups that are PC to
mistreat:ChristiansEspecially MormonsFat peopleWhite peopleAnd of some of each political party totally demean and
mistreat all of differing views from themselves, some even resorting to calling
the others racists. I don't call that improvement.
From reading this article, one would think morality was all about sexual
customs. Why focus on just sex? In many ways we are better than we used to be.
Environmental concern, race relations are two areas where we have improved. Why
weren't these mentioned?
I just need to state for the benefit of anyone reading that Redshirt and I may
share the same religious tradition, but our views on theodicy, punishing people,
and approaches to science couldn't be further apart. Please don't
make the mistake of assuming we all share the same opinions.
Morals haven't gotten worse, but they havechanged. It used to be
socially unacceptableto have premartial sex, but acceptable tomistreat people who were a different race.Now its just the opposite.In my estimation, overall we are morally betterNow than
re: Redshirt*Actually we don't know how old the earth is.*You stated, in a previous post, the earth is 6000 yrs old. So, which is
To RedShirt"How do you know that the Old Testament is a work of
fiction? Were you around at the time of Moses when he wrote Genesis?Were you? "...What that means is that if you extrapolate the
speed of light backwards, and relate that to time, the earth is only about 6,000
years old."& I thought just the Earth revolved I mean spun.
Can you prove, substantiate, back up this "theory"?
Pagan, Massachussetts' divorce rate is low because the state's
*marriage* rate is low. You can't get divorced if you don't get
I find that sinning is so much more enjoyable when there's at least some
moral code to sin against. I am entirely serious. Rules are made to
be broken, as much as to be kept. Sometimes breaking a rule makes us happier
than keeping it. But those are the exceptions. I worry that we're moving
into gray, bland Brave New World territory, where we all do just what we like as
purely physical, material animals, hardly different from a sponge. We never
have to struggle morally; this spares us some pain, but it also robs us of the
satisfaction of declaring independence from convention. How can you be a heroic
individualist, when the conventional wisdom has become "whatever, man; do
what you like"?
To "Open Minded Mormon" yes, some times God uses earthquakes to clean
out areas.Remember 3 Nephi? There was 3 days of earthquakes,
followed by God announcing which cities were buried, burned, or dropped into the
ocean. He declared that they were destroyed because of their wickedness. That
sure sounds like a "cleaning up" to me.What about Noah? Why
was the earth flooded while only a handfull of people were saved?Actually we don't know how old the earth is. Do you know how long each
of the 7 creation periods lasted? We know that they were called a day to put a
label on it, but it was not a 24 hour period.Maybe you need to
re-read your scriptures.
After 5 Years of Legal Gay Marriage, Massachusetts still has the lowest state
divorce rate...' - Bruce Wilson - AlterNet - 08/24/09Line:'Massachusetts retains the national title as the lowest divorce rate
state, and the MA divorce rate is about where the US divorce rate was in 1940,
prior to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor.' Source?
National Center for Vital statistics.See, people who support gay
life-long mongamy can support why, they should have it.Those against
it, rely on faith. Something they cannot prove.
I am not surprised by the insults from some on worldly side of moral issues, nor
am I insulted. Think on this, people who choose to reserve sex for
their marriage partner do not add any burden to those who do not. My morals have
given my children a better start in their lives. I have respected my fellow man
by making choices that maximize the chances that we can provide for our children
without public assistance. My morals honor my God, the giver of all. My stating
my religious views has no power over you, nor does it hurt you in any way. If
you feel a little angst about something you are doing, it is not my doing, it is
called your conscience, which is a gift from God, not from me.On the
other hand, those who engage in promiscuous sex spread STDs, often need
abortions or have babies out of wedlock. Society pays for the results of
reckless sexual habits, in welfare and medicaid for single parent families, in
STD/aids research and treatment, in Planned Parenthood services, etc.I am completely comfortable with my moral stand. The criticism
seems pretty shallow.
People are pretty tolerant of any belief as long as it does not oppose them. I
don't beleive God ever allowed slavery humans did. Of course life is not
chutes and ladders if righteour rewarded and sinners punished immediatly defeat
the purpose of mortality. I do beleive in modern revelatin and
since God is all knowing he will only do what is best for his children and some
circumstances things will be diffrent than others. Peter was told to eat Pork
or something forbidden by law of moses. Revelation there. Don't take
coffee or tobacco for same reasons.People can pretend there is no
God thereby pretending there is no sin. But you can't pretend there is no
gravity or you are effected by weather and escape the consequenses such as
falling off three story building or going out in cold. What will laws against
that do? You can use the Bible to defend any beleif you want or
criticize it. However God does live and he only gives laws and does what is
best for his children.
@RanchHand:"They are among the most likely to commit various
other sins themselves. Take a good look at those who claim to worship and be
religious and see just how many are committing adultery (another sin) or have
participated on one or more of the various sins listed in the bible (there are
many)."You've said before that bigotry is evil.
You've just made a incredibly broad blanket statement about those who
believe in sexual morality.Preach to me some more about your beliefs
in tolerance and diversity and how bigotry is evil.
Morality keeps us from doing things which seemed like good ideas at the time but
are really dumb in the long run.Business morality, honesty maintain
trust in a society. Making tons of mortgages to people who can't pay them
back, packaging the loans as securities and selling them to others increased
economic prosperity as housing prices went up. It seemed like a great idea, but
it was based on dishonesty and the prosperity was a housing bubble. Now
millions of people are out of work. There are 50 other ways why it is a bad
idea.Sexual morality deals with being responsible about procreation.
Lots of poverty is created by out of wedlock births. Again there are dozens of
ways why it is a bad idea. That is why I support traditional marriage.Ignoring human rights creates its own problems. Ignoring cold war dictators,
Saddam Hussein, etc. came back to haunt us big time. The term for this is
'blowback', the chickens come home to roost, etc.Slavery,
there was a reason that the South lost the Civil War, their economy was in an
economic dead end based on cheap labor and agriculture.
RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTo "Blue" sometimes it is just
their time to go. Sometimes God, has to clean out parts of the earth, so the
floods, earthquakes, and tsunamis are sent in to clean things up.What that means is that if you extrapolate the speed of light backwards, and
relate that to time, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.2:58
p.m. Jan. 31, 2013===========Oh dear RedShirt, I'm afraid you've laid all you cards on the table -- EarthQuakes are God's way to 'clean things out'?We'll never run out of oil, because the earth is creating oil faster than
we can possible burn it, And now -- that you solidly believe that the
Earth is only 6,000 years old?Aside from your political views to
which we disagree, it is now quite clear you are also an adimit Science
hater/denier as well.The more I learn about what you think and
believe, the further and further we become.I'll stick
with my beliefs of truth: science, religion, and political.I do not need
to compromise, force, twist or justify any of them using pseduo-explanations to
reconcile them.Good evening...
Chris BSalt Lake City, UTNature has decided that homosexual behavior
is not normal, by virtue of the fact people would cease to exist if only
homosexual relationships occurred. Mother nature has spoken.
Sorry.-------------------I guess older couples marrying
are not normal either, by virtue of the fact that people would cease to exist if
only couples beyond childrearing years were in relationships.Mother
nature has spoken. Sorry.
@chris b yet homosexuality exist throughout nature, your right mother
nature has spoken but you appear to be deaf.
I think the authors focus on sex caused them to miss the number one reason that
gay marriage has gained so much support. The number one reason is the sheer
inability of those that are against gay marriage to develop an argument that is
not based purely on lies and half truths, which is also a sin. Such a mistake
making it that much more suspect that the author choose such a narrow view on
cause and effect.
@redshirt its just their time to go, but sinners get punished. this is why
I could never do the religion thing you really have to tie yourself in knots to
justify the conflicting beliefs within religion.
Nature has decided that homosexual behavior is not normal, by virtue of the fact
people would cease to exist if only homosexual relationships occurred. Mother nature has spoken. Sorry.
To "Blue" sometimes it is just their time to go. Sometimes God, has to
clean out parts of the earth, so the floods, earthquakes, and tsunamis are sent
in to clean things up.How do you know that the Old Testament is a
work of fiction? Were you around at the time of Moses when he wrote Genesis?There is a book out there (I forget the name) where they look at recent
scientific discoveries and found that the speed of light is slowing down. Now,
what does this have to do with anything. What that means is that if you
extrapolate the speed of light backwards, and relate that to time, the earth is
only about 6,000 years old.
Redshirt: "Bad things happen to good people because the bad people made bad
choices. "What "bad choices" do the victims of
earthquakes, floods and tsunamis make?"God is not indifferent.
Just look at the old testament. When the people are good, God helps them, when
they are evil, he lets them destroy themselves."The Old
Testament is a work of fiction. Or do you really believe that the world is 6,000
years old, the first homo sapiens were Adam and Eve, and that Noah's flood
and ark were real?
I think the Mormon approach is very good. I dont agree with the Mormons on
almost anything related to their doctrine, but their approach to homosexuality
seems about right.Treat everyone kind, while never accepting what is
wrong.People who have challenges should be helped. People can
overcome those challenges and caving into their challenges is never what is
best.While I dont agree that sexual relationships need to wait for
marriage, I agree they are only acceptable to God between a man and a woman. Keep up the good work in this regard Mormons. I'll stand with you
on this one issue.
Sin is the invention of religion. It’s purpose is to offset the defenses
that people might have in believing the imaginary story of the religion. Before religion there was not sin.
To "Blue" I feel sad for you.Bad things happen to good
people because the bad people made bad choices. God will not stop us from
making bad choices (Satan wanted this), so when a person makes a bad choice that
choice is allowed so that it can stand as a testimony against them at the
Judgement day.It all depends on what you call good, and the
timeframe that you are looking at. If you are only concerned with this life,
then go ahead and be jealous of the sinful wealthy people. If you look at this
life from an eternal perspective, you will feel sad for those sinners because
after this life they will be separated from God.God is not
indifferent. Just look at the old testament. When the people are good, God
helps them, when they are evil, he lets them destroy themselves.Miracles are often hard to determine. There are times when you may be
involved in a miracle and know it.God's commandments are
simple, it is only people that make them more complex, like the Scribes and
I like our modern changes in morality...I enjoy driving into cities and
not seeing "sinners" impaled on stakes or left hanging in trees.
If repubs and conservatives are so moral then why are the southern (protestant)
states leading the way in abortion, teen pregnancy, and STDs?
Christian 24-7: "For those of us who are religious, it is simple. Sin is
sin. We are not surprised by the negative consequences of sinful actions. It is
God's danger signal."It's "simple" all right.
Is simplicity a good thing? You're saying we have no need for
an appreciation of the inescapable complexities of life? Everything is just
black vs. white for you?Why do bad things happen to good people?
What was their "sin?" Why did my friend's 4 year old daughter die
slowly and painfully from an inoperable brain tumor?Why do good
things happen to "sinful" people? Why is Hugh Hefner 86 years old, happy
and prosperous?Are all bad things that happen to people an
expression of divine wrath? Are all good things that happen a divine reward? Why is your God, historically, so blatantly indifferent to good and
evil?How do you know which events are due to divine intervention,
and which are simply the random occurences that happen naturally in a dynamic,
changing world?The "simple" approach to life is to believe
that diseases are caused by evil spirits.I'll take complexity
over that kind of "simple" thinking any day.
Looking forward to reading an article about the morals and the lack thereof of
hedge fund types and co-conspirator banksters...Instead...a pithy
tome about SEX.
higvDietrich, IDGod does not change his morals sin is still sin7:28 a.m. Jan. 31, 2013========== Did God change
his morals regarding slavery?Did God change his morals regarding plural
marriage?Did God change his morals regarding eating pork, circumsision,
shaving, and gentiles being baptized?Good grief.Why
don't some of you ultra-conservatives go back 3,000 years were you
belong.Hint: The past wasn't as nearly as rosy and morally superior
as you might imagine.
Yes, thankfully our ideas about morality evolve with time. We've done some
pretty stupid, and cruel, things in the name of morality. Religion, which tries
to sell itself as the champion of morality, is much slower to evolve. It takes a
while for a 'prophecy' to come through. Plus, the fixation it has with
who gets to have sex with whom and for what purpose is becoming a bit, well,
@ Christian 24-7: One problem with your rant - nothing in reality supports it.
Morality is about more than sex. Morality is about honesty and
personal values, respecting yourself and other people, facing the consequences
of your actions and allowing others to do the same - among other things.This is a very narrow look at morality.
And to think - those on their moral high horse about those who "sin",
would propbably welcome back public stoning for it.Is it any
wonder they still do the psychological equivalant of it...
The thing that has changed the most in these matters is that consequences have
been minimized, by science and social programs. Contraception, abortion, and
medication have greatly curtailed the unwanted pregnancy and STD consequences
from promiscuous sex. Without these natural consequences, Godless people see no
reason not to "be merry" to whatever extent they want. But
what about the emotional consequences? Breaking up can be tough, but it has an
added dimension for those who were sexually bonded. People eventually come to
trust no one, and bond to no one, to protect them from further emotional hurt.
Many women who had abortions in years past, now suffer from horrible emotional
distress from that choice. Meanwhile, antidepressant use, anxiety
disorder, and other mental disorder rates are skyrocketing. Most our mass
murderers are detached (detachment disorder) from their fellow men/women. But we
won't bother studying the connection between chosen behavior and mental
illness. Inventing more drugs makes more money, and frees the immoral from
responsibility for their choices.For those of us who are religious,
it is simple. Sin is sin. We are not surprised by the negative consequences of
sinful actions. It is God's danger signal.
Mr. Mattingly starts with a valid point - that moral behav ior has changed over
the past 40 years - but he then he finds it necessary to turn this into a
political rant."...the number of Americans who took the
conservative stance was leveling off at 38 percent, but the percentage of those
embracing the liberal, progressive position was up to 60 percent."Just one more person claiming that everyone who claims to be politically
conservative is mroally clean and those who call themselves liberal have no
morals. This is nonsense. Look at the sex scandels involving our public
officials. Is there a distinction between the two in that regard?"President Barack Obama announced a long-expected change of heart and
openly endorsed same-sex marriage." But the president didn't pass any
moral judgement on same-sex relationships. I have gays friends at work and
elsewhere and they know that I don't condone that aspect of their lives.
But they are wonderful people in so many regards that it would be harmful to me
if I rejected them for their sexual preferences.Whatever happended
to "love one another" and "judge not..."? When will we pratice
what we preach?
higv: "God does not change his morals sin is still sin."That
is demonstrably untrue.How many slaves do you own? Do you treat them
well?What's the going rate for selling a daughter into slavery?Ever eaten shrimp?Are you wearing more than one type of fabric on your
body right now?Do you trim your hair? Wear jewelry? Permit women to wear
slacks or speak in church?How many disrespectful children and
"infidels" have you killed?More to the point, who made you
the arbiter of what does and does not count as "sin" according your
imaginary super-being?When some preacher bellows that _you_ are the
sinner and _he_ is the virtuous messenger of God, why do you get to tell him to
go jump in a lake, but we are supposed to believe that _you_ are an expert on
morality?Using the ghost stories told by Bronze Age mystics as the
basis for morality is a terrible way to run a sane and just society.Me, I'm grateful that so many people are really terrible at doing what
their religions demand from them.
For any thing to be sacred, it has to have a purpose. Since the most important
thing in life is self preservation. mirage is a commitment to the continuance of
life. The gay and lesbian are 4% of the population and only 1.5 of the
g@l's that find a friend stay friends. I'm can;t understand why
this is any thing I can be the least concerned about. But it really makes me
wonder about our elected.
@higv;Let those who worship your god follow his rules. Leave
everyone else alone.One funny thing about those who believe that
homosexuality is a sin, or premarital sex is a sin, etc. They are among the
most likely to commit various other sins themselves. Take a good look at those
who claim to worship and be religious and see just how many are committing
adultery (another sin) or have participated on one or more of the various sins
listed in the bible (there are many).Hypocrites are usually the
first to scream when their own sins are pointed out and the last to admit they
God does not change his morals sin is still sin
Yes, our view of morality has changed over time. Thank goodness!We
no longer believe that eating shellfish a sin.We no longer believe
that wearing two kinds of fabric is a sin.We no longer believe that
women must be kept silent in church and never give instructions to men.We no longer believe that a woman raped within city limits must be killed, but
a woman raped in the countryside must be married to her rapist.We no
longer believe that people whose religious beliefs are different from our own
must be killed.We no longer believe in owning slaves.Those are all contained in the "morality" of the Bible, yet we have
wisely abandoned those beliefs.21st Century morality is indeed
different from the morality contained in the Bible. It's the only reason
we're able to function as a society.I think it's fair to
say that the more a society tests dogma against reality, the healthier it is.