Because of the Labor Movement, the formation of Unions, life for workers in this
country changed for the better: an 8 hour workday, higher wages, children who
can go to school instead of working in sweatshops. Unions are needed now more
than ever. Workers' rights have been eroding for decades in conjunction to
unions having less influence and membership. Unions not only help members, they
make it possible for all workers, unionized or not to receive better pay, more
benefits. Collective bargaining is a right that all workers should have, and
keeps corporate abuse at bay.
In the rest of the economy, when a group of suppliers get together to try and
jack up prices by restricting supply, it's called a cartel, or a
combination in restraint of trade. And it's prosecuted under anti-trust
laws.When a group of suppliers of labor get together to try and jack
up prices by restricting supply, this is not a cartel because....
LDS [factually challenged] Liberal:"Every car you drive, every
plane you fly on, every ship you sail on --- thank a highly skilled Union
work-force -- mainly in America, Germany, Japan and Korea."My
Toyota Camry runs great. Built in a non-union plant in Kentucky. You need to
check your premises.
Unions are fine. People have every right to band together and see what they can
negotiate. (Historically, the answer was "not much," which is why
unions invariably moved beyond persuasion into intimidation, dynamite, and
beating the tar out of people who wouldn't go along with their would-be
cartels.)Wagner Act unionism -- with rules designed for the
steam-locomotive era and slanted overwhelmingly in union bosses' favor --
is a dead model. It invariably means stagnation for those companies that have
the misfortune to be unionized by today's sclerotic union bosses, who have
no real interest in the workers they supposedly represent. Those companies
steadily become less competitive, and are replaced by companies without the
union millstone. Myself, I've worked close-up with union
bosses, and have yet to meet one that didn't have the face of a B-movie
lost in DCWest Jordan, UTyour comment also provides NO
research or evidence to back LDS?lib's claim. You could have easily
provided evidence of all the outsourcing, but you, just as you accused me of
doing, presented NOTHING to back it up.If you do and can, I will
hereby apologize to not only you but to the LDS?lib. Will you do the same if
your research shows there was ANY union involvement in the 787?4:07
p.m. Jan. 30, 2013=========== Google search - Boeing Outsource 787579,000 returnsDN will not allow
hyperlinks - please do so yourself.FYI - Forbes magazine [hardly a
left-wing anti-Capitalist magazine] wrote a skathing article just 5 days
ago - titled:"What Went Wrong at Boeing"Management was to
blame 100% for over outsourcing, not the unions. BTW -The Boeing 787
it will go down in the history books not so much as being such a great plane,
BUT as an example taught in every college Economic and Business class as
to what NOT to do for the next 100 years.
I admit I have never belong to a Union. But I have been in management and
worked with Unions. The people in Unions are the same as non union, Union
contracts can be a problem if they were negotiated poorly. Nobody holds a gun
to the management to sign a Union contract, well maybe in Chicago, so it up the
both sides to work out a reasonable set of terms. The problem with union
contracts for public employees can be the poor skills, knowledge lack of
accountability on the part of the elected officials. But even these will work
out over time, but with much pain and suffering.
RichardBMurray, UTUnions no longer support the American worker. The
support open borders, and flooding a countries labor market. It's no wonder
people are leaving them.12:44 a.m. Jan. 30, 2013=============Unions won't hire Non-Union Workers.Let
alone Non-U.S. Citizens.Unions used to be the mechanizm and 1st line
odf defense for skilled and legal workers.Btw- That's another
reason why businesses don't like unions.It keeps them fro going out
and hiring illegal workers, and paying them un-taxed cash under the table for
less than minimum wage.Once again, we see that Unions made America
strong.Greed and Business is the cancer the is corrupting it from the
airnaught,I have good reason to doubt LDS?lib with his constant lies about
bush circumventing congress. Why should I believe anything he says. but your
by-line says you live in Everett, home to a large Boeing facility. your comment also provides NO research or evidence to back LDS?lib's
claim. You could have easily provided evidence of all the outsourcing, but you,
just as you accused me of doing, presented NOTHING to back it up.If
you do and can, I will hereby apologize to not only you but to the LDS?lib.
Will you do the same if your research shows there was ANY union involvement in
Are unions serving needs? Whose needs? I suspect if you belong to a union then
you like unions and if you don't you see unions as a HUGE drain on a states
budget. I see the need for unions since more corporations tend to treat their
employees pretty badly when it comes to laying off and other hard - ball
business tactics but I also understand how the auto unions have caused car
prices to rise due to the increased labor costs. The bottom line here is
honesty. If both unions and corporations were both honest then budgets would be
more balanced and life would be so much better.
lost in DCWest Jordan, UTBoeing outsourced ALL the engineering
as well? I doubt it.12:27 p.m. Jan. 30, 2013============= Doubt all you want, but that's the facts
- and yours was a comment made with ZERO research and ZERO fact finding...
@The Real Maverick "Try telling that to..."In America today,
corporations have to compete with each other for talent. If people aren't
being paid what they're worth, they can go to work for someone else who
values them properly. Free societies are awesome that way. The key is to develop
a skill that not everyone has, and to do it well. There are no guarantees that
hard work will lead you to the opportunity you want, but persistence usually
leads to a better life.@LDS Aero Engineer "[S]tarting wage was
$9.25 per hour."See what I mean? A trained beginner was making
60% higher than minimum wage. And I'm guessing there were wage increases
for the people who proved themselves. Right?
LDS?libsince you never saw it, it never happened?OK Christ was
never born,Joseph Smith was never martyredWashington never crossed
the DelawareColumbus never sailed the oceanNapoleon never invaded
RussiaAlexander the Great never invaded EgyptCeasar was not knifed
in ForumLincoln never debated Douglasetc ad infinitum - since YOU
didn't see it.naming trade organizations does not specify auto
unions. because there is an AFL-CIO, then the 14 year old sweepers at the local
jr high MUST belong to unions?Boeing outsourced ALL the engineering
as well? I doubt it.
lost in DCWest Jordan, UTLDS? lib"Japanese unionized auto
workers? Korean? I don't think so" Rengo: Japanese Trade Union
Confederation Zenroren: National Confederation of Trade Unions
Zenrokyo: National Trade Union Council Korean Metal Workers Union
(KMWU)...but don't let facts get in your way.You know
Boeing is located in closed-shop states, so of COURSE their planes are union
made. but would you care to explain the recent problems then with the 787? Having lived in Seattle...[I lived AND worked at Boeing for 22
years in Seattle - I NEVER saw anything you just described. NEVER! So, I'm
calling your bluff. As for the 787 -- That entire program was
out-sourced to Non-Union plants, in Non-Union companies, as is assembled in
Non-Union South Carolina. So from my personal experience -- it was a huge
gamble that turned into a $25 Billion mistake by Boeing management, not the
workers.]NatePleasant Grove, UTAerospace engineers who
make only minimum wage are somewhat rare.11:31 p.m. Jan. 29, 2013Whe I started working at Boeing as an aerospace engineer - minimum wage was
$5.75 an hour, and starting wage was $9.25 per hour.
"In my experience, corporations pay you what you're worth"Try telling that to Africans in the south.Try telling that to the
Chinese who worked on the railroads. Try telling that to the Irish,
Germans, Slavs, and Russians who worked in the factories.Try telling that
to the children without arms or legs.Try telling that to the miners with
black lung.Try telling that to the women of today.Try telling that
to the Chinese worker sweating his life away for pennies in order to make your
$200 dollar shoe.Try telling that to the Hispanic who cleaned your dishes,
made your hotel bed, or picked your food.Try telling that to the millions
of Americans today who have seen their pensions, benefits, and salaries vanish
while their CEO bosses have seen record salaries and bonuses. It's obvious that someone is cheating the game. And it isn't the
The pendulum swings between employer dominance and union hegemony. There is a
middle ground, but neither side recognizes that position. Abuses by both sides
means that no one has the moral high ground.
I think it's amusing that since only 7% of American workers are union
participants that we have 93% that are experts
Unions no longer support the American worker. The support open borders, and
flooding a countries labor market. It's no wonder people are leaving them.
In my experience, corporations pay you what you're worth. - NateResponse: Study: Nearly half are overqualified for their jobs - by
Katie Ardmore Deseret news 1/28/13
@glendenbg "The opposite of right to work is right to organize and protect
yourself through unionization."You have the right to organize.
You just don't have the right to force others to do it.@LDS
Liberal "Corporations will not be happy until every employee is making
minimum wage," etc.Does this really reflect your experience? In
my experience, corporations pay you what you're worth. You may need to make
a better effort at work. Aerospace engineers who make only minimum wage are
You enjoy your weekend?Thank a Union.
Yet another thread where the pro-choice folks are not the liberals. Right to work does not prohibit anyone from joining a union, nor does it
prohibit people from forming a union. It only prohibits the unions
from forcing all employees to join the union, or in other words it denies unions
the right to take people's choices away. It preserves individual's
choice.Can any liberal tell me why the right to off your unborn is
held sacred but the right to not join a union is not held sacred?I
truly don't get it.
@lost in dc. States are passing right to work laws to pit non union vs union
employees against each other so republicans can destroy unions. I
also wonder why you think unions have have out grown their usefulness? Do you
think if unions went away that companies would not endanger their employees
lives to speed up production? Do you think companies would pay a living wage? I
have to ask whether you think a Walmart worker contributes more to the economy
through taxes and spending or someone who is part of an union?
LDS? libJapanese unionized auto workers? Korean? I don't think soYou know Boeing is located in closed-shop states, so of COURSE their
planes are union made. but would you care to explain the recent problems then
with the 787? Having lived in Seattle, I know of union employees
who arrive late, walk slowly across the plant and don't reach their
workstation till time for the union mandated break, then slowly walk to the
break room. The same thing is repeated for lunch and afternoon break. So here
is a 6-figure employee doing NO work, and taking employment from someone else
and the union protects him.ECR,Just because unions once had a
place, does not mean they have not outgrown their usefullness and not have not
become corrupted by the absolute power they have, especially in closed shop
states. Why do you think states are now changing to right-to-work states? What
is it that is driving cities to bankruptcy? the need to nullify crushing union
Lew ScannonProvo, UTAgreed.I heard today that Ford
had a banner year.They met and exceeded expectations.Management is passing some of those earnings along to those who made it
possible -- the UNION employees are getting an $8,500 bonus.It's called "Positive Re-enforcement".Like offering an
apple or sugar cube for good or desired behaviors."Negative
Re-enforcement" is using a buggy whip to get results.Pushed hard
enough, long enough - a desparate horse will turn on you, throw you, and tropple
you to death.
ugottabkidn,You make some good points, but those Econ 101 teachers
don't really understand productivity. Basically, if a business improves
labor productivity, either through technological advances or through better work
methods, the ultimate result is that the company can produce the same amount of
product with fewer workers. This leads to either layoffs or lower wages. Where
do the gains from lower labor costs go? To the workers? In your dreams. It goes
to stockholders and executives and contributes to the increasing inequality
we've seen for the past 30 years.Unions are notorious for
slowing work down, but there is a reason for this. It is to combat the end
result of productivity improvement: fewer jobs and lower wages. James Lincoln of
Lincoln Electric fame understood this. He gave the workers the gains from their
increased productivity. His workers were (and probably still are) very well
paid, and unions couldn't get a toehold in his business. Their products
were also very well made. The best strategy to defeat unions is enlightened
management and good pay.
Frank Lloyd Wright once said "If capitalism is fair then unionism must be.
If men and women have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of
their country, then that implies the right of men and women to capitalize their
labor.""Right to work" is a misnomer invented ages ago
by people who dislike unions. The opposite of right to work is right to
organize and protect yourself through unionization.
Corporations will not be happy until each and every employee is making minimum
wage.As few employees as possilbe, and as low a pay employee as
possible.Employees are a liability, not an asset.BTW - We
should all stop and thank UNIONS that we even have minimum wage.
Study: Rich get a lot richer, outpace middle class - By Andrew Taylor - AP -
10/26/11 For people in the middle of the economic scale, after-tax
income grew by just 40 percent While in contrast...
(the study) finds that after-tax income for the top 1 percent of U.S. households
almost tripled, up 275 percent, from 1979 to 2007.That story was
published by the Deseret news. It is now official, CEO"s make on
average 400 times more than their workers, average making over $1 million
dollars a year. Before, bonuses. Are unions serving a need? Short answer: Yes. Because a CEO will never have to be concerned
about employee pay, benefits or working conditions... when they
simply have to tell you you should be 'thankful' you have a job. And make you fight...for minimum wage.
Every trade, skill, profession, association, occupation, preference, race,
religion, age and every other group of people can be classified as a union.
People unite to increase their influence over their world. There’s
strength in numbers. The reason workers unions are so demonized and
hated is because they threaten and can effect the profits of the rich and
powerful. Contrary to the propaganda of business, a union of
scalawags who live off the labor of others, workers unions are no more
dishonest, cruel or evil than the other groups of people on this world.
I've never been a big fan of unions. But I do recognize their necessity. If
businesses really want to make unions unnecessary, they could simply practice
better management and insist on fair pay. Unions only exist because of abusive
management practices. This isn't rocket science.
Hilarious! Utterly hilarious!Hilarious how this letter writer
cleverly omitted the fact that Hostess went through 7 different CEOs in 10
years. Each CEO gave himself and his cronies bonuses while running their company
further into the ground. Yes, workers took hits. Millions in pensions were lost
prior to filing for bankruptcy. While workers saw losses in their
salaries, pensions, health benefits, and jobs, the CEOs saw bonuses.And this letter writer has the gall to blame "the unions?"The problem with America isn't with unions or with "workers." The
problem with America are the get rich fast schemes which attract our CEOs. CEOs
who care more about making a quick and easy buck and less about actually
building and growing a company.Unions aren't a threat. Greedy and incompetent CEOs are.
Many people have no idea how unions work or operate. It is illegal for unions to
use dues or working assessments for political activity. Yet many individuals
have commented here, claims it happens all the time. Where is your proof? As far as pensions go it is federal law they have to be funded to a
certain level. If the pension is underfunded the members either have to take a
cut in pay and contribute that to the pension, ask the employer to contribute
more money per hour(which will never happen) or reduce the monthly pension
Here we go again with the Union bashers...Every car you drive, every
plane you fly on, everyship you sail on --- thank a highly skilled Union
work-force -- mainly in America, Germany, Japan and Korea.Every
cheap plastic toy, every cheap quality tool, every disposable throw it away junk
item...thank the Communists in China and exploited labor in Mexico, Bangladesh,
and Malaysia and their fire prone fatories.Unions do nothing more
that assure those who actually produce the product, get their fair share of
it.FYI - Unions broke down the Iron curtain of Communism -- not all
the bombs, guns, tanks, ships and planes could ever buy.Why do you think
Unions are out-lawed in COMMUNIST China.
This is an offensive letter. Hostess was mismanaged. Businesses go under because
of mismanagement and poor decisions. Period. Business that makes unions a
partner are successful. Roland Keyser is spot on. Since 1979, the average middle
class wage has gone from 27k to 31k while the 2% has seen wages more than
double. You can't blame illegal immigration for that. Productivity has
steadily climbed and Econ 101 would have you believe wages would climb
proportionally but it hasn't. The minimum wage should be around $17/hr but
it isn't. Over 50% of those receiving assistance have jobs. Is that
something you can blame on unions? Contrary to the opinion of the popular right,
taxes are the lowest in 5o years. Where is this extra cash going? Secret foreign
bank accounts and the like I think but it isn't going to the American dream
for the middle class.
Most of us work today without the benefit of union membership because the wages,
salaries and benefits we receive are acceptable because of past union
activity.How many employers would pay the wages and salaries they
pay and offer the benefits they offer if it had not been for strong unions in
the past standing up for the common worker and fighting for those wages and
benefits?Safety in the workplace is such an important aspect of
worker satisfaction. Some jobs are inherently dangerous (such as construction)
and so it is important for employers to adopt safe working conditions and
practices. Once again, just like with wages and benefits, the private,
non-union sector has had to catch up to the benefits enjoyed by union workers if
they wanted to acquire and maintain a competent workforce.It's
popular and easy to portray union leaders and thugs and criminals (and some of
them have been) but most are just honest leaders who care about the welfare and
fairness offered to those of us who go to work everyday. Let's all stop
trying to find fault with unions and get over the paranoia that seems to
It's no secret that unions were infiltrated by those that wanted them
destroyed. To that extent that they were poorly managed on purpose, no.But having suffered an injury at a large company because my manager just
couldn't bring himself to slow down on short term goals so I could manage
my safety I think the loss of unions and the threat of unionization is a real
loss. I know if I had had representation it wouldn't have happened.
Roland,I think you would find the decline in working class wages runs
paralell to increased illegal immigration and amnesties granted by well-meaning
but misguided politicians.Of course, more illegals voting and more
poor voting means more dem votes, and that's what the dems really want, not
quality of life for their constitutents.isrred,yes, we know
the law forbids unions from donating dues to politicians, but that has not
stopped them from doing it. And there are other ways they promote the dems - I
remember being courted by a union and getting their newsletter. I had to check
twice to make sure it was not published by the DNC. It was not, but it
certainly could have been written by them.
I love it. "Center for Union Facts". You could substitute the words
'tobacco' or 'pharmaceutical industry' for 'union'
and get the same level of truthiness; the same idea of what the purpose and
motive of such an organisation is. Or you could just substitute 'NRA'
for the entire phrase.
@ isrred"If you even cared about facts and reality you would
know that the law prohibits spending of dues money on political contributions.
"Yes but criminals don't obey the law, even if, and
especially if, they are organized criminals. But don't let that
get in the way of your worldview.
Are unions truly serving the needs of their members? Given lower membership and
declining wages, likely not. But I am not sure the reason (or the answers) are
what the letter writer imagines.
"Union members are forced to pay union dues, union bosses donate money to
the Democratic party"If you even cared about facts and reality
you would know that the law prohibits spending of dues money on political
contributions. But don't let that get in the way of your worldview.
1970, the year truck drivers realized the union would shoot them for trying earn
a living and feed their families. And blue calls Berman a
'hired gun'.Unions are the ones who are the syndicates
with hired guns.
What a strange pair of values. Liberals are all for illegal aliens coming to get
the 'right to work' but are against citizens have the 'right to
work' without paying the extortion to the union.No one should
ever be forced to fund the democratic party just so they can have a job.
The Democratic party benefits more from unions than any other organization.
Union members are forced to pay union dues, union bosses donate money to the
Democratic party and the Democratic party bails out union jobs. For example,
nearly two thirds of the "stimulus package" went to public sector
unions; school teachers, firefighters etc. Money laundering with taxpayer money!
Who is Richard Berman?Richard Berman is a Washington, D.C.-based
hired gun who uses front groups to defend his corporate clients against the
public interest. Using his lobbying and consulting firm, Berman and Company, as
a revenue vehicle for his activities, Berman runs at least 23 industry-funded
projects, such as the Center for Union Facts, and holds 24 "positions"
within these various entities.He's a shill for corporations.
I'm sure getting information about unions from the "center on union
facts" is reliable and of course unbiased.
Are unions truly serving needs? Here's how you find out: make union
membership (and dues-paying) entirely voluntary, everywhere. Then watch how many
people sign up.The experiment is already underway. As more and more
states pass right-to-work laws, union membership is declining.
Union membership peaked in 1970. Wages for working class men peaked in 1973 and
have been declining ever since. Coincidence?