Our public actions must be informed by science. We cannot bury our heads in the
sand.Denial of climate change usually takes one of two forms.First, that the scientists have ignored some key data. As if armchair
experts know what the professionals do not.Second, that there is a
vast global conspiracy to suppress the truth. The problem with this is the size
and complexity of such a conspiracy would be beyond what is humanly possible.We need to reject such foolishness, take the best information available,
and move forward accordingly.
What I find is that if one is very very selective in choosing the data, spins
that data just right, while ignoring mountains of other data, a case could be
made AGAINST climate change.Not exactly a scientific approach, but
used quite commonly by "intelligent" people and elected officials.
HOw do people explain lenghty cold fronts or volcanic eruptions. Can't
control climate why let it control us?
So, is a few places we had a warmer than usual summer. Right now in some places
we are having record breaking cold weather which is threatening crops and lives.
In Russia it was -40 degrees last week. How do the "scientists" explain
that? The evidence doesn't support the theory all the time does it?
I'll say it again. Those who choose to bury their heads in the sand (or
snow) and pretend nothing is happening won't wake up until their tail
feathers ignite.Actually, the incidental weather anomalies that seem
to contradict climate change are predicted by the change models.But
understanding that requires some ability to actually think beyond sound bites.
"in some places we are having record breaking cold weather which is
threatening crops and lives. In Russia it was -40 degrees last week." How do the "scientists" explain that? Well, I am
not a scientist, but I think I can. It is called Weather.Weather
happens daily. It sets new records all the time, both hot and cold. Those that
interchange weather and climate miss the picture. Climate is not weather.This is the type of cherry picking I was referring to.
Weather is not climate. Utah's temperatures have almost nothing to do with
global averages. One year's temperatures are meaningless in long-term
trends.So should we get alarmed about this January's
near-record cold? Is an ice age looming? Same logic applies.
No. I refuse to believe it, therefore it isn't true. It isn't
happening in my backyard, right now, so I don't have to do anything about
it. I am a utah armchair climatologist.
Come on people, its time to face the truth. Al Gore is a fraud and so is his
"inconvenient truth" scam. He is laughing all the way to the bank having
amassed wealth untold! Yes, he is even richer than Mitt Romney now! This issue
was and remains all about money; taking it from you and giving it to them so
they can "save the planet". At what point will some of you finally
recognize this and get on with solving our real problems?
MountanmanHayden, ID...Al Gore is a fraud... He is laughing
all the way to the bank having amassed wealth untold! Yes, he is even richer
than Mitt Romney now! =========He maybe richer than Mitt
Romney, But he's still a pauper compared to liars like Rush Limbaugh,
Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.
MountanmanHayden, IDSo, is a few places we had a warmer than usual
summer. Right now in some places we are having record breaking cold weather
which is threatening crops and lives. In Russia it was -40 degrees last week.
How do the "scientists" explain that? The evidence doesn't support
the theory all the time does it?8:07 a.m. Jan. 15, 2013=====Beacause we all know you have ALL the evidence for the entire
planet from your little old back porch up there in little old Hayden, Idaho -
right Mountaman?From all your posts -- it seems very clear your only
contact with the outside world is whatever Rush Limbaugh tells you it is.
@Mountainman"The evidence doesn't support the theory all the time
does it?"Considering record highs are much more frequent than
record lows the past decade actually it rather does support it. Last year was
the 11th warmest on record with 15 of the 15 warmest years being the most recent
15. "At what point will some of you finally recognize this and
get on with solving our real "problems?"When the data stops
backing up the idea of anthropogenic climate change.
The global warming deniers on this board are pretty funny when you consider that
on one side of the argument you have 99 percent of all credible scientists in
the world and on the other side you have Glenn Beck...
Massive amounts of data support man-made causes for climate change. A handful
contrary studies offer a different view. The conservatives prefer to ignore the
former and give total allegiance to the latter. Unfortunately, their view of
economics results from a similar attitude toward evidence. Somehow they have
managed to maintain just enough power in government to prevent us from actually
dealing with the problems on both fronts.
@ ATL. Data is easily fabricated, it happens everyday. Aren't actual
ambient temperatures data? I trust actual facts more than computer model
predictions. You should too.@Open Minded.. I don't listen to
Rush Limbaugh, don't have time.
Well, it only took nine posts for someone to weigh in with the "all about
the money" rebuttal, although this time it was only directed at Al Gore and
not at all of the climate scientists who have to drink the climate change
Kool-Aid to keep getting all of those lucrative federal grants. Never mind that
Gore's latest windfall came from a routine media business transaction.
Never mind that most academic researchers make modest incomes. Never mind that
the charge is rarely applied to the climate change skeptics funded by the Koch
brothers or Exxon-Mobil.However, let's accept the charge as
legitimate and apply it equally to another subject currently in public debate.
This issue was and remains all about money; taking it from you and giving it to
them so they can "save the guns." Only this time the giving is done
freely by gun owners to the dealers and lobbyists. Does anyone not think that
there is a viable industry manufacturing fear of gun confiscation? Gun and
ammunition sales are booming. NRA membership is skyrocketing. There is a lot
of money to be made riling up the masses and cultivating hysteria-- whatever the
If Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck say there is no global warming, then by golly,
there is no global warming. Every climate scientist in the world is a liberal,
Communist, money grubber. (Disregard the fact that scientists make many
multitudes less than either of those renowned experts, Rush and Glenn.
Disregard the fact that scientists have spent years learning about the things
they study, while Rush and Glen have studied no more than maybe high school
biology and chemistry).
WonderProvo, UTAgreed!Nothing speaks the truth
over accredited Global Scientists worldwide better than a fat-cat $400 million,
college-drop-out, 3 timed married, former drug-addict, facists, male chavanist,
radio show host, broadcasting from a studio through his EIB microphone, in
I've never seen Rush Limbot have an expert guest on his show. He knows
Why is it that people love to run these words all together into one subject?
Global warming - global cooling - climate change - human caused global
"whatever". Those are 4 different subjects - all have plenty of
statistics to support or refute them. If people were at all logical and
rational, they would recognize that "climate change" has happened on
this earth since its inception, and even IF humans are responsible, barring a
massive die-off, there is nothing that will change whether we have a
"warming" or a "cooling". Even a massive die-off will most
likely make no difference in "climate change". You all do know the
meaning of "change", don't you?
@Mountanman"Aren't actual ambient temperatures data?"Yes, that's actually what I'm basing my statements on. Despite
how cold it's been in salt lake city so far in 2013 we have not gotten any
closer to a record low than yesterdays -2 (record low: -10). All surface
observation datasets (NOAA, NASA, etc) and the satellite datasets like UAH and
RSS show warming over the past three decades on the order of .12-.16C/decade.
Re: "Weather is not climate."Meaning that only hot weather
counts?We're currently experiencing one of the coldest winters
in memory. But that doesn't count because it doesn't perpetuate the
global warming myth.Or, worse yet -- some assert the extreme cold is
the surest sign of global warming.When climate "scientists"
can come up with a crisis that's not "proven" by data so nuanced as
to be invisible to all but the cheerleading "scientists," themselves;
when their raw data sets are made publicly available, and their published data
are not "normed" and "smoothed" beyond recognition; when
investigators that disagree with them are free to publish; when their models
actually predict reality; and when they can find some evidence for their
assertions that only communitarian socialism will "solve" the
"crisis" they've "discovered;" then, maybe we'll
listen.Until then, it's just bleating to the same tune old tune
as such discredited "sciences" as phrenology and eugenics.
procuradorfiscalTooele, UTRe: "Weather is not climate."Meaning that only hot weather counts?We're currently
experiencing one of the coldest winters in memory.==============You're memory is wrong.I worked in a sweatshirt outside until
the middle of December.It didn't snow until Christmas.The last couple weeks have been cold, but are not setting any consistant
string of records for cold.The facts is -- the winter of 2012-2013
is still warmer than normal.That's what we mean when we call it
It is interesting that those who call gun owners paranoid are the same ones that
are paranoid that their tail is going to burst into flames because of global
warming. I don't see anywhere near the evidence that global
warming is about to off a bunch of people that I do that a nut job is going to
off a bunch of people. The latter happens every few months (or weeks, according
to those trying to outlaw possession of guns). Haven't heard of many people
burning up in the weather, ever.I will keep my guns, continue to be
a responsible American and world citizen, and not run around like chicken little
saying the heat in the sky is falling. (and I will continue to wear many layers
when I go outside for the next few weeks!)
To "JoeBlow" you are wrong. The data that is being used for the studies
that state that the climate are cooling use satelite data and present a better
picture of what is going on than the ground based stations. See "Sorry
Global Warming Alarmists, The Earth Is Cooling" in Forbes.I love
the liberals who run out of actual arguments and go straight for the
"climate change denial" allegations. Nobody is denying that the climate
is changing. History shows that it has changed and will continue to change.
The problem is identifying the source of the change. The people who continually
stick their heads in the sand declaring that it is all man-caused repeatly show
that they don't understand science very well.How are we
supposed to trust climate models that have been shown to be wrong? Would you
fly on an airplane that had bad calculations for its wings? See "Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly
released... and here is the chart to prove it" in the UK daily Mail,
"New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism" in Formbes,
and "Painting by numbers: NASA's peculiar thermometer" UK Register.
procuradorfiscal: "... when they can find some evidence for their
assertions that only communitarian socialism will "solve" the
"crisis"..."The only domestic public policy option for
reducing CO2 emissions I've seen given any serious consideration is Cap and
Trade. This is an attempt to harness free market forces and price mechanisms to
affect public behavior. Similar market-based strategies have been successful in
controlling other pollutants (e.g. SO2) It's hardly "communitarian
socialism."I have previously challenged Cap and Trade critics in
this forum to come up with a better policy to reduce CO2 emissions (just pretend
for the moment that the hoax of CO2-driven climate change is real-- it's a
thought exercise, after all). Propose a policy mechanism that maximizes
consumer choice, maximizes producer flexibility, incentivizes innovation,
minimizes administrative costs, and reliably produces measurable reductions in
emissions. Those who have responded (almost always conservatives) invariably
fall back on top-down, command-and-control government dictates-- banning or
restricting emissions or making emissions exorbitantly expensive through fines
(Big Government solutions). That or moral suasion-- tell people CO2 is a
problem and just hope they will change behavior.
Christian 24-7Murray, UTIt is interesting that those who call gun
owners paranoid are the same ones that are paranoid that their tail is going to
burst into flames because of global warming. I don't see
anywhere near the evidence that global warming is about to off a bunch of people
that I do that a nut job is going to off a bunch of people. The latter happens
every few months (or weeks, according to those trying to outlaw possession of
guns). Haven't heard of many people burning up in the weather, ever.================= Hurricane Sandy - death toll 135 people,
Hurricane Katrina - deth toll 1,836 people.But - you
don't see ANY evidence...
"The data that is being used for the studies that state that the climate are
cooling use satelite data and present a better picture of what is going on than
the ground based stations."Someone better tell that to the polar
ice up north. It didn't get the memo.
To "JoeBlow" they already did. See "World Atlas ice loss claim
exaggerated: scientists" at Reuters, "Earth's Polar Ice Melting
Less Than Thought" in US News, "Science mystery: Himalayan glaciers are
growing despite global warming" DN, and "Change is a cold certainty"
in the Austrialian.But I must say, nice job trying to change the
topic.The fact remains that the satelite data is better for
measuring temperature than the ground stations. Just take a look at the
locations for the NASA weather stations that track temperature. They are
located primarily in the US and Western Europe, missing the poles, oceans, and
much of Africa. The satelites collect data from the entire globe. Why would
you trust models based on the land based temperatures when they miss most of the
Re: ". . . Cap and Trade. . . is an attempt to harness free market forces
and price mechanisms to affect public behavior."Yeah -- a
centrally-directed, completely artificial valuation of a "commodity"
that has no intrinsic value, done in order to force behavior that's in
conformity with that desired by the central controllers.Sorry, but
that's a pretty good definition of communitarian socialism, not free-market
"Earth's Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought"Well....
how is it melting at all with temps dropping?Shouldn't they be
Spouting death tolls from 2 hurricanes is hardly evidence of global warming. In
fact all the "evidence" of global warming is weak and not well
connected.Hurricanes have been around for centuries. They are not
new, and cannot be attributed to any current global warming.There
have always been cycles of mild hurricane seasons, and severe hurricane seasons.
The big hurricanes are many years apart. 90's was Andrew, 00's was
Katrina, 10's is Sandy. Damage, in dollars always grows over
time because the value of property goes up and the value of a dollar goes down,
and because there is ever more development and more expensive boats along the
shore. There more damage because there is more valuable stuff in the way. It is
not because of global warming.More people are injured and killed in
hurricanes because there are more people packed in along coastal areas, and many
think they don't need to leave when a big storm comes. More people in the
hurricane's path = higher death toll. It is not due to global warming.There is no link between any hurricane and global warming.
RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UT" at Reuters, "Earth's
Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought"===========OK -
stop and "think" about that for a minute RedShirt...Just
because some report says it's melting slower than thought, doesn't mean that it isn't mealting at all.If the Planet
wasn't getting warmer, Then the Polar Ice caps wouldn't be
melting at all.Do us a favor -- Why don't you Google up
some "common sense".
A new report just disclosed that 2012 had the HOTTEST average worldwide
temperature ever recorded. The report also indicates that it would have even
hotter had it not been pulled down a degree by some isolated colder temperatures
in some areas.
"The majority of Americans now believe that human-caused climate change is
affecting us, according to the Yale Project on Climate Change
Communications" - The majority of Americans also know who is allegedly the
father of Kim Kardashian's baby but have no idea who Obama will nominate
for Treasury Secretary so what does "the majority of American's
believe" have to do with the price of tea in China? Since the American
left always has to "do something" then what shall we do? Tax carbon?
Mandate more "renewable energy" and jack up American's utility
bills even further? What's so funny about the environmentalist crowd
is that fracking and Natural Gas appear to be a gift from heaven to assuage
their worries and naturally they don't want anything to do with it. Energy
is bad don't ya know! But we have to do something! Pass some new laws and
regulations! Just do something! To heck with the consequences!
I have an idea- why don't we print some more money to fund a new "cash
for clunkers" program? That was a wonderful idea to combat global warming
and it worked so well. I can feel it getting cooler already. Yes, poor people
suffered because it jacked up the price of used cars but why worry about poor
people when you are pursuing lofty goals like combating "climate
change"? You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette don't ya
"The hottest ever recorded" How long have we been recording?
150-200 years?Isn't the earth 5 1/2 billion years old? Seems
like a ridiculous to assume any trends or even rates of change.Bad
science and bad math
"Global warming became a cause to save life on earth before it had a chance
to become good science. The belief that fossil fuel use is an emergency
destroying our planet by CO2 emissions took over the media and political arena
by storm. The issue was politicized so quickly that the normal scientific
process was stunted. We have never had a full, honest national debate on either
the science or government policy issues... Everyone "knows" that
global warming is true." By Karin McQuillan of "American
Thinker"Political correctness is pushing away any science that
is contrary. Its sometimes cult-like followers bully, demonize and insult those
what dare question it.
You are narrowminded or have your head in the sand if you think global warming
is a farce. Thing is how can humans destroy something they did not create? We
always had material on earth so we can't destroy it. Besides
Meteorologists can't get the temperature straight the next day how can you
guess the temperature years from now. Global warming is a farce. Good thing no
one beleived in it before the industrial revolution or we would not have the
industrial revolution and that is what is happening now is people are doing what
they can to destroy progress.
To "one old man" to quote your ilk. One year does not make a trend.
Just like one cold winter does not mean that we have global cooling. Using your
logic, Global Warming is over because this winter is colder than average.To "airnaut" if the polar ice is melting less than thoght or
projected, what does that say about the models that your ilk are dependant on to
justify the policies to cut CO2 emissions?To "higv" Global
Warming is not a farce. We have been warming since the end of the Little Ice
Age (1850). Just look at the dates of the Little Ice Age, and compare that to
what the Climate Change Alarmists use as the timeframe for warming.
All the arguing back and forth about whether global warming is real or is
man-made is all beside the point. The skeptics have enough power and, barring a
Republican self-destruction over the debt ceiling, will continue to have enough
power to prevent the U.S. from significantly reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
China and India and other up-and-coming nations will also continue to add to the
CO2 in the air. If global warming is real and is man-made, we'll find out
soon enough and will have to live with the consequences, unpleasant though they
may be. The only thing that might save us is if we run out of oil. It may take
100 years or so, but eventually we will have to find an alternative source of
energy that can fuel our ever-growing global economy. If we can't, then
we're sort of back to square one. And so far, there is no alternate source
of energy that can come close to propping up the corporate system that is
running us into the ground.
higvDietrich, IDYep.Global warming is a farce -- And you should know -- Speaking on behalf of all 332 good citizens in
Airnut "Global warming is a farce -- And you should know --
Speaking on behalf of all 332 good citizens in Dietrich Idaho."Meaning what??? That people from small towns are unknowing? Seems like
insulting a person's position based on the size of town they live in is
hardly civil dialogue.Utah gets treated the same way by
sophisticated easterners. It is nothing short of a PC form of bigotry, you know,
like insulting fat people, or Mormons.Thanks for showing us how low
you will go.
re: JoeBlowExactly. Climate is what we expect. Weather is what we
get.Conceptually, SLC has the same climate as Northern Kazakhstan
& parts of Turkey's interior. I doubt they have been unnaturally cold
for the majority of 2013.