@Ultra BobIt is you who seems to have a problem with numbers. Your statement, "A"s only payout is the $100,000 given to B and so his
tax bill is 20% of the $100,000 or $20,000" makes absolutely no sense.
Electrician A did not have a "payout". He is a sole proprietor who
billed his customers $200K. Electrician A clearly earned $200K gross income and
your system purportedly allows no deductions. Therefore, either your ("no
deductions") system allows deductions or you cannot multiply because $200K x
20% equals $40K in tax. Which is it?If you are really advocating no
deductions, the system does not work because it favors employees over similarly
situated employers (as the "electricians" example illustrates). If
you are advocating a "cash basis" system, you are describing it
incorrectly (because it has deductions galore). Also, they are a disaster (and
not used in the world) because they are so easy to abuse and circumvent. Back to the drawing board Bob!
Taxing the rich, (people making over 400,000 is NOT going to solve the problem.
Our tax rates arew the lowest in 60 years. We havent paid a bill, since the Bush
tax cuts were inacted. Tax rates need to go UP on all of us. Spending. A
problem? Yes. But the most money we spend is on the millitary. That is where we
need to cut. NOT social security, which is self sufficent If the gov, would
leave its hands out of it, Medicare, and medicaid. Tax the rich, feed the poor,
till there are, no rich no more!
procuradorfiscal.“How can liberals be so hard
hearted?”It’s probably because we believe in the
American principals of equal justice before the law, equal opportunity and fair
treatment of all people. People who claim special privileges for
themselves like Small Business, Farmers, Doctors, soldiers or churches etc. are
not in tune with America.
cpafred.Q. Does the cpa in your name indicate that you know anything
about numbers?B receives $100,000 for his wages. He owes no further
taxes. His take home pay is his to use as he pleases. In the old
way, B would have quoted his salary at $120,000, consisting of the net pay of
$100,000 and the tax withheld of $20,000.A’s only payout is
the $100,000 given to B and so his tax bill is 20% of the $100,000 or
$20,000.Since B seems to have taken no money as profit, the $80,000
is retained in the business, with no further taxes required.
@HaHaHaAnd Romney and all of his right wing-nut apologists
didn't think he needed to disclose his investments. How well did that work
out for you all? Who Ha Ha'd in the end?
CPA Fred - Oh Yes I plainly recall the massive and collective roar, by the
organization of tax preparers of America leading the call for disclosure for the
purposes you claim. Give me a break. Your buddy Harry Reid, and most of his
fellow slobbering leftists, called Romney a liar, and claimed he hadn't
paid taxes for over a decade! They weren't going on about disclosure of
business partners and efforts.
Re: "The concept of a small business is irrelevant."Only to
reckless, feckless liberals.The rest of us realize that most of the
Nation's productivity and job creation resides in the small-business
community. And, that most of the middle class are either small businessmen, or
work for them.In your example, the $300,000 you so merrily indicate
should be sucked from the neck of this hypothetical business, means 5 or 6 good
jobs that, along with growth that might otherwise have occurred, either
won't happen, or will be cut. All because a bloated, unaccountable,
ineffective government thinks it needs that money more than 5 or 6 American
families.How can liberals be so hard hearted?
@ Ultre BobYour answer (to Taxman) may be understandable by others,
but (sorry) I am confused. So if I can ask a simplier question:Electrician A hires Electrician B and pays Electrician B $100K during the tax
year.Electrician A bills his clients (and collects) $200K gross receipts
from them during the year. At the end of the year (and before paying taxes),
Electrician A has $100K in his hand consisting of the $200K he earned less the
$100K he paid to Electrician B. Electrician B also has $100K in hand (before
paying taxes) consisting of the $100K Electrician A paid him. Under your (no
deduction) system, how much tax does each pay and how much cash does each have
left at the end of the year?Thank you. @HaHa The issue
tax professionals (who had an issue) had with Romney's offshore investments
had do more with disclosure than evasion. Romney didn't feel it was
anybody's business what the offshore trusts he was investing in were
investing in. Some people wanted to know wether Romney was making financial
bets against the US or partnering with people who's interest run counter to
The Taxman.The employee would pay no additional tax. His income tax
($20,000) is part of the money paid by the business, his tax rate is the same as
the owner. If the business pays the owner $800,000, and $700,000
business expense the total payout from the business would be $1,500,000. At a
tax rate of 20% the business would pay an $300,000 to the government. Since you
didn’t mention the gross sales of the business I don’t know if that
is more or less than the business and the people paid before. The
concept of a small business is irrelevant.
@Redshirt"Russia does not have a progressive tax."That is precisely what I said... Russia does not have a progressive tax.
After you reread my post and apologize, please explain what the immigration of
one crazy "Putin loving" Communist to Russia has to do with anything I
said. If you are trying to make the point that if individual tax
rates get too high, people will leave, then I say "thank you Captain
Obvious". However, as I pointed out below, "the notion that our
progressive rates are higher than other countries' rates is hogwash"
because our rates are lower than most, France included.@HaHa"We are supposed to accept and believe the "Taxman" at his
word that he is an expert."Where did I say I was an expert?"If this country is so bad in violence and education, why haven't all
the rich left?"Because of low individual taxation. Where else can
people as rich as Romney pay effective rates less that 15% and enjoy first-world
To "The Taxman" I am not sure we should trust you. Russia does not have
a progressive tax. In 2001 they implemented a flat 13% income tax. That is why
Gerard Depardeux renounced his French citizenship and now has Russian
citizenship. France will now lose out on that tax money while Russia just
gained a millionaire.
Re: "I'd rather live in a poor America with true patriots who love
their country,than a rich America full of traitors who love their
money."Funny how liberals always accuse us of treason for
objecting to their cynical picking of our pockets.And, funny how
they conflate patriotism with poverty.America's documented
history of enabling prosperity and opportunity for everyone willing to work for
it has become anathema to them. They can't buy enough votes advocating
progress. So, they now want everyone to be equally ignorant, to believe equally
foolish political dogma, to behave equally badly, and most of all, to be equally
poor.Poor, sad liberals.And poor, sad America, if we
listen to their bleating.
So when Obama and his minions accuse Romney, or persons like him, of taking his
money out of this country, they are either lying, or he didn't do it for
tax purposes? Why was that even an issue in the campaign, other then to further
the class envy hatred that all leftists feed upon?
Let the traitors leave, and they can take their money with them.I'd rather live in a poor America with true patriots who love their
country, than a rich America full of traitors who love their money.
What Taxman said is true. A few minutes of research shows that. The problem we
have (particularly in Utah) is that truth is irrelevant. If the truth does not
fit their narrow views then they attack the messenger. Intellect, education and
knowledge are eschewed. it's like the old saying: "Never argue with a
three year old. You will always lose."
Love it when leftists get on here and proclaim themselves smarter and loftier
then all others (the "ignorant"). We are supposed to accept and believe
the "Taxman" at his word that he is an expert. Name one of the countries
that he exaults as "the rule" on taxation, that isn't governed by
progressives that believe in centralized bigger government. So what if they are
a "democracy", and even practice snippets of capitalization? Why
wouldn't the rich take their money elsewhere, to avoid taxes? Our leading
leftist hypocrites do it all the time, John Kerry, and a multitude of
entertainers come to mind. Half wit leftist think we are prospering under Obama
because we supposedly dropped the unemployment from 9% to 8%. If this country is
so bad in violence and education, why haven't all the rich left?
@ Roland Kayser. You referred to old issues of the Huffington Post for your
information (1980) Try looking again at CURRENT information please! Its a
different story today!
@BYRThe United States taxes the worldwide income of its residents, so the
income earned on their offshore money is taxable.
The rich will leave America with tax increases just like the rich were
supposedly going to create jobs after the tax cuts. How'd that work out for
the rest of us?Let them rise and let them rise greatly.
Taxman -- You are an expert on taxes, but don't expect any tea partier to
believe anything you say. If Rush didn't tell them, then it just
The rich will not leave America. Only their money.
MT Man From Idaho: From the coments you have posted on here about
the goverment and now the rich will take there money and run. Well it suprize me
that your still here, because alot of us thought that you would have been in the
front of the line. Because of the hate you have showen for the President and the
sitting goverment . Or is it you just like to whine?
"Graduated taxes are a curse on society."And the ignorant
comments continue... One of the very few countries on our planet
(the only one I have ever dealt with) without graduated rates (aka progressive
taxation) is Russia. Graduated rates are not just the norm, they are the rule.
This tried-and-true rule of graduated tax rates is followed by the whole world
because they are considered fair (by all but the most radical of both sides of
the political spectrum) and because they raise the necessary revenue to run an
economy. If you do not like graduated rates, Mr. Richards, I
suggest you emigrate to Russia.
The greedy will always demand that someone else pay for their liberties, for
their freedoms, for their healthcare, for their "cake". They want it
all but are not willing to pay their way.They would be incensed if
they were asked to pay $8 for a gallon of milk because they had a job and the
next person in the grocery line couldn't pay for his own milk, and yet,
they think nothing of demanding that that poor person pay more property tax and
sales tax to pay for their ticket to the symphony or the zoo.Graduated taxes are a curse on society. They let politicians buy votes. They
allow Obama to turn this country into a greedy, finger-pointing, hate filled
nation where half the people demand that the other half work harder for less
money so that they, themselves, don't have to work.Shame on
those who look with their greedy eyes on the wealth of the workers who produce
jobs and run businesses. Shame on those politicians who prey on the those who
covet wealth but who do nothing but complain.
"Institute a flat rate income tax to be applied to every income from every
source without exception and without exemption. No deductions, no favoritism, no
individual tax returns."Please explain for us Ultra Bob, how
much tax would be paid under your system by two electricians, one a small
business owner and the other an employee. Assume the employee works for the
small business owner (who provides his trucks, tools, materials, etc.) and pays
him $100K salary. The owner, also an electrician, earns $800K, but pays $700K
out in expenses (salaries to the other electrician and secretary, trucks, tools,
materials, etc.). Assuming a 20% flat tax rate and no deductions (i.e., your
proposed system), how much would each pay? Roland left out
Singapore in his first post, the one nice place (worth living) in my opinion
that has lower individual tax rates than here. Otherwise if talking about tax
treatment he is correct that it is hard for a rich person to receive better
(tax) treatment than they get in the U.S. The answer to MM's question why
don't rich people from other countries come may be because of our poor
educational system and violent society.
I practice international tax for a living and am well acquainted with the tax
laws of many countries as well as our own. Most of the comments regarding taxes
I read on this board (not just regarding this article) display incredible
ignorance. For example, the notion that our progressive rates are
higher than other countries' rates is hogwash. The notion that we
"punish anyone who is successful in this country" is hogwash considering
we have some of the lowest marginal individual rates around. The notion that
our high individual rates are stifling job creation relative to other countries
is hogwash. The northern European countries who are booming right now have
higher tax rates than ours, and during the good 'ole days when our country
was booming, our tax rates were higher.The statement "Foreign
people who own businesses in the USA and earn their income from the American
people, don't pay income tax to USA" is flat-out false. All
effectively connected US income is taxed in the US.
re:Mountanman"fewer inventions, fewer investments, fewer capitol risk
takers,"Some of our best and brightest-engineering and math
majors--are now working in the financial services industry where salaries are
significantly higher than traditional engineering and science fields. The U.S. lost wealth as a result of the economic collapse. Additionally,
China, India have new economies which are expanding while the U.S. has a more
mature economy. Still:"A recent survey from British
analyst WealthInsight reports the U.S. has added 1.1 million millionaires since
Obama was elected in 2008.(Huffington Post 11/2/2012)"But even
if it seems like America's wealthy are losing ground, they have a long way
to go before losing their place as the richest group in the world. The U.S.
still ranks first for number of millionaires, with more than 5.1 million
households qualifying for the label, according to the report. Japan ranks second
with 1.6 million millionaire households, followed by China.Just 1
percent of the world's households controls 40 percent of the world's
private wealth, the study said." (Huffington Post 5/2012)
I don't see any call to pity the rich. I do pity those who
think it is better to tax and redistribute than to create jobs. Creating jobs
distributes not only the money, but creates the self respect that comes with the
earning of the money, and creates great American products made by American
minds, American capital, and American hands. Government redistribution takes
away self respect and replaces it with idleness and a mental condition called
entitlement mentality.Government is not a creator, not can or should
it be. Government is the ultimate money pit, deep enough to take all the wealth
of the whole nation and it will still have want of more. Government
is what should have the size of its intake restricted to 16 oz (Perhaps
translated to 16% tax?) so it doesn't stay so fat and bloated or get any
more fat and bloated.
Business and rich people have the ability to blackmail our governments by the
threat of changing their residence. Foreign people who own businesses in the
USA and earn their income from the American people, don’t pay income tax
to USA. Tax reform in the form of the Ultra Tax could eliminate the
problems above and a host of other unfair inequities in the support of the
American governments. Institute a flat rate income tax to be
applied to every income from every source without exception and without
exemption. No deductions, no favoritism, no individual tax returns. Collect the tax from the operation of any and all business operating in the
US market. The amount of the tax would be a flat rate applied to every bit of
money paid out of the business operation for every purpose. All money paid out
of a business is income to someone, no matter if it is for inventory, wages,
profits or even the special services fees from local governments. Include
churches, charities, and all profit and non-profit.Eliminate
business income tax, death tax, special accounting and tax these as part of the
flat rate income tax.
@ Roland Kayser. If what you say is true, the US should have rich people from
other countries knocking down our doors to get their money here, so how come
they aren't? According to the Huffington Post, the number of millionaires
in America are decreasing at a rapid pace.
Re: "Higher tax rate on top bracket doesn't invite pity"The ones to pity are those who will lose jobs or stay unemployed because
bloated government believes it has more need of a small company's money
than do its potential employees.This is not a war on the rich --
they'll make out OK -- as much as it is a war on those in the middle class
that depend on small businesses for their jobs.Which is to say
millions of Americans.But, hey, so long as the rubes -- I know, I
know, the politically correct terms is "low knowledge voters" -- are
taken in by the Obama regime's divisive lies, and so long as the politicos
who pander to the rubes keep getting reelected, pity is all the suffering
American middle class can expect from its government.
Great letter. I highly doubt any would give up their citizenship to merely pay
less in taxes. But if there are well go ahead and leave. Don't let the door
hit you on the way out.
Well, if someone considers a return to Clinton-era tax rates "class
warfare", I suppose that only getting a 40-foot yacht instead of 44 really
is the dawning of evil Communism. Some conservatives tell us that you
can't be poor if you own a refrigerator or cell phone, but then tell us you
can't be rich if another 4% taken off of income over $250K. How their heads
don't immediately begin spinning in circles, I don't know. Mr. Wyrouck, if you do gift your disability pension to the yacht earners, it
will certainly be appreciated. It's less time and money they will need to
spend on lobbyists to get favorable policies.
Its not that the "rich" will leave the country and take their wealth
with them, its that since we demonize and punish anyone who is successful in
this country we will have much less of it at every level in our society; fewer
inventions, fewer investments, fewer capitol risk takers, fewer entrepreneurs
and fewer jobs means fewer taxpayers and less revenue to tax! Its like eating
our seed corn so that in the spring, no new crops (wealth creation)are possible
to harvest in the fall! If we punish the wealth producers, who will produce
wealth? What will there be left to re-distribute? We can borrow $16.5 trillion
but someday, someone will have to pay!
There is nowhere in the developed world that a rich person can go and receive
better treatment than they get in the U.S. Sure you could pay less taxes in
Paraguay, or Uganda, or Bangladesh, but you really wouldn't want to live