Letters: Demons, not free riders


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  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 3:14 p.m.


    What is your solution - wealth redistribution? Read the Communist Manifesto and compare to Barack Obama's ideology and get back to me will ya?

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 3:10 p.m.

    In a country we all "very much" love, I know of no single individual who pays "no taxes" or expects to be supported by those who "do pay taxes." All I can say is you need to get out more guy! 50% pay NO federal income taxes and the entire sales pitch of team Obama was to re-enforce the entitlement mentality. Also as far as love of country YES I love my country - the constitution and the founders as well as all the great brave patriots like my dad who fought in foreign wars for this country but I will say with no hesitation I HATE the socialism / progressive movement which seeks to destroy that very constitution. That same socialist / progressive /radical movement happens to own the White House at the present time.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 14, 2013 2:58 p.m.

    This post actually highlights the biggest problem in the United States and that is low information people. You can go to Google and find out in 5 seconds that only roughly 50% pay ANY federal income tax in the US which also means roughly 50% DON'T pay any federal taxes. It isn't demonizing to state facts is it?? Facts are facts and too many of these "low information" citizens simply are lazy and don't do ANY research to base their opinions on. Whether you watch MSNBC or Fox News you need to turn off the TV and do some actual research on your OWN because as the X-Files states - The Truth Is Out There!! The internet gives you all the tools you need for simple research and of course you have to check your sources but that is true in any sort of research. To ignorantly assume non-factual propaganda is tragic and that is precisely why Barack Obama is president for a second term. No we aren't all in this together - that is a fact. There are the "freeloaders" and the worker bees and one political party that rewards laziness.

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 11, 2013 11:02 a.m.

    Obama seeks social justice. The biggest socioeconomic injustices are to those born in 3rd world countries, versus those born in, say, the USA. He promised to "heal the planet". From his own words and works it looks like he wants to make sure the rich USA doesn't lead the world in wealth or influence. Too bad. The USofA has done a lot of great things in the world. If we make ourselves too broke to help others, many will suffer greatly.

    Maybe Obama thinks Iran will be nicer if they come to be a world power, or North Korea, or Venezuela. But somehow I don't think they will commit money, troops, and technology to build up other nations, as we have done.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:25 p.m.

    Its not that liberals "demonize" the wealthy--we are opposed to the U.S. becoming a plutocracy. Our economic and tax systems, over the past 3 decades are creating greater inequality. Middle class earners have a greater chance of falling into the lower class than in moving to the upper class. Upward mobility--the American dream--is becoming just that--a dream.

    Republicans/conservatives on the other hand, venerate the wealthy, without analyzing the factors, means and methods of that wealth accumulation--being wealthy indicates superiority worthy of admiration and respect.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 5:39 p.m.

    Re: Christian 24-7 "Since liberals see the rich as rotten thieves..." Do liberals really see the rich that way? The ascertion seems awfully general. Marxists don't see the wealthy that way at all. As Marx would say "it's not the people it's the system." In capitalism we all role play. The plebes play their role and the rich play their role.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 5:36 p.m.

    "But there is a bigger dirty secret. Since liberals see the rich as rotten thieves, it follows that they must see the richest country in the world as a rotten thief country. So they are enacting policies to bring the rich in America down to their knees, and America itself down to its knees. They seek the destruction of the country"

    LOL! You should create Disney villains, Christian. You'd be great at it, you have a good imagination, a simplified black-and-white world view, a dramatic flair, and you don't let reality get in the way of a good story line. You could call it "Noble Prince Capital Gains and the Evil Jealous Redistributionists."

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 4:56 p.m.


    You are so right, except the last part. You see, illegals can get some services but until they are legal, the right to vote is pretty allusive. So there is no vote loss by eliminating jobs for illegals.

    I wish Romney had cued in on this idea during the debate when Obama bragged that there are fewer illegals in the US today than when he took office. It was a no brainer that when they come to work and earn, and there are no jobs, they go back home. Great immigration plan, if you are a democrat. You can pretend to love the illegals keeping certain demographics voting for you, while getting illegals to go home. Never mind that it is so hard on American workers. You can buy their votes with unemployment benefits for 2 years.

    But there is a bigger dirty secret. Since liberals see the rich as rotten thieves, it follows that they must see the richest country in the world as a rotten thief country. So they are enacting policies to bring the rich in America down to their knees, and America itself down to its knees. They seek the destruction of the country.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 4:08 p.m.

    Discussions about class warefare,so called, need to include Marx's concept of surplus value. Why is it appropriate to tax the rich at higher top marginal rates? Because labor, the 9 to 5 crowd, produce a surpluse, i.e. surplus value, for which they are not compensated. This surplus is the source of profits and ultimately capital. Think this is nonsense? Well then, answer Marx's question - where to profits come from in a market system which sees mostly the exchange of equivalents? The answer is surplus value. For this reason so-called entitlements are justified. Of course contemporary capitalism wants nothing of these programs and intends to terminate them as soon as possible. Indeed, the goal is to deep 6 baby boomers as fast as possible as we age. Now THAT is class warefare.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 4:06 p.m.

    I see you cannot refute the rest of my comment, about those receiving MORE back on their federal return than they paid in TOTAL taxes.

    How can one say, and reaffirm, as you did, that NO ONE pays no taxes when clearly MANY are getting MORE back from the feds than they pay in total taxes without lying? Stop lying, please. I have seen the tax returns. Have you?

    How can one say, and reaffirm, that those making $8500 pay MORE than $4500 in total taxes without lying? Either that, or being woefully ignorant? which is it lib? ignorance or deceit?

    yes, self-righteous libs, who appear so uncertain about their convictions they need to include them in their name, calling the truth a lie is a sign of the times

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 1:25 p.m.

    "Is it true or not that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes? If it is true, who pays for their federal benefits? Case closed!"

    What is a federal benefit?

    The right to vote?
    The security with not being blown away because of the protection that the (federal) American Armed Forces provide?
    Social Security?
    Pell Grants?

    What does it mean to receive "federal benefits?" What are they exactly?

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 1:05 p.m.

    I just realized that what Obama and the Democrats are really trying to do with all these liberal fiscal policies (tax and demonize the rich, ruin businesses, get people used to low growth and economic success). They are trying to solve the illegal immigration problem!

    For over two centuries, the U.S. has been a shining light on a hill. The problem is that light has attracted too many moths. If we just dim the light a bit or maybe even make it so you can't see it unless you come real close, then fewer foreigners will want to come here.

    We will get less people sneaking across the boarder, fewer illegals getting government handouts, fewer voters for liberal policies,...er, wait...never mind...scratch that theory.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    lost in DC
    West Jordan, UT

    Cannot, or will not distinguish between income and other taxes? See my first comment to Donald. See also the comment to pragmatist about not demonizing the rich. Calling the truth a lie (as you are wont to do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

    9:53 a.m. Jan. 10, 2013


    Read the article Lost,
    It was in reply to the letter by a Neo-Con saying "No tax", as in - no taxes of any kind.
    I remember, because my very first response to that ridiiculous remark was that EVERYONE pays some sort of tax -- even the begger buying a cup of coffee from McDonald's.
    And if Neo-Cons want to talk about Mitt Romney's mythical 47% - then please be specifical.
    But to say 47% pay NO taxes whatsoever - as was implied - is a conservative Lie.

    I will agree with you,
    Calling the truth a lie (as you are wont to do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

    And self-righteous Conservatives are guilty of it all the time.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    Protecting and worshipping the wealthy is what conservatives do best.
    Christian 24-7 is apparently a satirical name, since ayn rand's "The virtue of selfishness" seem to be your bible.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    @ UtahBlueDevil. Actually, I do know who most of the 47% are;
    47.7 million Americans receiving food stamps, about 1 in 6 Americans or about 17% (not 14%) This according to CNN.
    1.4 million Americans are in the military today, not 12.8 million. I personally know dozens of people who served in the military and most of them pay federal income taxes.
    Many elderly people pay federal income taxes. Just because you reach a certain age doesn't mean you are exempt.
    And by the way, you are also wrong that I think I am better than the 47%. You are completely wrong about me or what I think.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    @mountain man
    The problem is not becoming successful but rather crushing every last dime out of those that helped you gain and now maintain that success. you really can be successful without hurting others. There was actually a time and still are a few successful people that understood/ understand that in order to be successful that both the owner and the workers where necessary and deserved to be treated fairly, now days many companies seem to see those that help generate their wealth as nothing more then a nuisance and a burden to their stock holders.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 12:18 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" it is your ilk that are spreading the lies. Most conservatives are quite careful to state that there is 47% that pay no income taxes. It is the lie that your ilk spreads saying that " conservatives that there are some Americans who pay NO taxes". Why do you continue to perpetuate lies?

    To "VIDAR" Social Security and Medicare are not Federal Income taxes. Those are payroll taxes, yes there is a difference.

    To "Liberal Today" and how do the rich take money away from the poor? Is it wrong to sell the poor food, clothing, cars, phones, and anything else they need at a fair market price?

    What percent of their income would you determine is "fair"?

    To "UtahBlueDevil" you are wrong. The 47% that are receiving government aid are the elderly and the working poor. About half are the elderly, and the other half are actual poor people. The military does not even factor into the equation.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 10, 2013 11:47 a.m.

    By the way Christian and Mountainman... do you have any idea who this 46% are.

    12.8 million are those serving in the armed services.

    54% are the elderly

    Only 4% get housing aide

    Only 14 percent get food aide.

    The characterization you all have of this 46/47% really does a disservice to these people. A large part of these people are they who are responsible for the freedoms we have gained and now enjoy. If you want to feel you are better than someone, I am sorry but the number of people you are better than is far smaller than you think.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 10, 2013 11:25 a.m.

    @Mountiainman..... case far from closed. What you are saying is a taxpayer is only one who pays one particular tax. Even my father in law that ran a business - where his accountant was able to zero out much of his income - he very much considered taxes on his income. If you look at someone making only $25,000 a year working at Walmart and look at the total taxes still removed from their paycheck, social security, state taxa and disability, they paid more as a percentage of their income than does Mitt Romney.

    This holier then thou mentality of some on the right, thinking they are the only ones working for a living, is delusional and most self serving. I know too many republicans who are not, so I know this is a false statement, but some of the comments here make some conservatives look very self enamored.

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 11:07 a.m.


    How sad that you can quote "defend liberty" and think it is a bad thing.

    Dependence is not liberty. Redistribution is not liberty, nor is it justice.

    But then you probably rail against the Pledge of Allegiance too.


    Nice try at obscuring the truth, but SSN tax, aka payroll tax, is not the same as federal income tax.

  • VIDAR Murray, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:58 a.m.

    Hayden, ID

    Not true that 47% of americans pay no federal income tax.

    Social security is a federal income tax which all workers pay. To call social security anything but a federal tax is untrue.

    Businesses constantly say any tax they pay is passed on to consumers; so anytime you buy anything you are also paying federal income tax as well.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:35 a.m.

    Is it true or not that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes? If it is true, who pays for their federal benefits? Case closed!

  • Liberal Today Murray, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:33 a.m.

    The rich only get rich by taking away from the poor. They deserve to be demonized. They need to pay more in taxes to make things fair.

    This isn't class warfare, it is just the poor defending themselves against the class warfare created by the rich.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:20 a.m.

    'Obama and the Democrats have successfully followed the old political strategy of divide and conquer; demonize the rich, convince people they are victims of the rich,'

    Well, unless Obama was born back in the 1700's and was able to influence events back then... he really had nothing to do with Adam Smith, his prescriptions for capitalism, and his call for a progressive tax system. Why you associate progressive tax policy as a "liberal" invention... who knows.

    The twisting this as class warfare is purely marketing buzz. Pretty much the only ones going around "attacking" the other group are conservatives - most of whom this will not impact at all. I have seen plenty of "demonizing" of the mythical 47% who don't pay takes..... very little demonizing the other way around. We are talking about a tax change of less than $3,000 yearly for someone with an adjusted income of $400,000. It that is warfare... we have some pretty wimpy people out there. What worse is those who claim those making minimum wage are soaking it to the rich.

    Class warfare..... right.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:03 a.m.

    All taxes are paid by consumers. Every tax paid by every person in the USA is included in the price of goods sold to people who consume food, fuel, clothing, housing, etc.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 10, 2013 10:02 a.m.

    Since when did America become a land of no opportunity? Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz recently declared that "the U.S. worked hard to create the American dream of opportunity. But today, that dream is a myth." Like many others, he focuses on the growing concentration of income in America. While I worry about it, too, I also fear that we've become obsessed with income inequality, to the point that our leadership beats up on hardworking people who chase their dreams and become successful as a result.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:53 a.m.

    M. Donald,
    While I do not agree that everyone who does not pay income tax expects everyone else to support them, there are people who pay less in taxes (including SS, state income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc) than they receive back on their federal tax return. Most, if not all, will have their taxes done within in the next week or two. There are many people who will claim less than $10k in income, yet because of various credits will receive a refund of around $4500. There is NO WAY their total tax exceeds $4500.

    As for demonizing one because of their economic status, you’re talking about the DNC hate speech demonizing the 1%, correct?

    the DNC has NEVER said a bad thing about the 1%? The very connotation has come to be derogatory. Take off the dem-colored glasses and see the world as it really is.

    Cannot, or will not distinguish between income and other taxes? See my first comment to Donald. See also the comment to pragmatist about not demonizing the rich. Calling the truth a lie (as you are wont to do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    When both Ronald Reagan and George Bush Jr. were promoting their tax cuts, they both insisted that one of their prime objectives was to entirely remove low income workers from the income tax rolls. So the two Republican presidents got their tax plans passed, they did what they said they would do, but today's Republicans don't like it anymore, so it's Obama's fault.

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    Terrific letter, Mr. Thomas. Very well done indeed.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:35 a.m.

    @mountain man
    thank you for proving emajors point.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:25 a.m.

    May I nominate this as LETTER OF THE MONTH?

    One of the previous comments here starkly illustrates exactly what this author means in this letter.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    Great letter M. Donald Thomas.

    The lie being fed by conservatives that there are some Americans who pay NO taxes is what's dividing this country.

    BTW- No one is demonizing the rich. We are only demonizing the unfair tax advantages and loop-holes they recieve that the rest of can't.

    Remember -- Mitt Romney had to severlly re-adjust his own taxes for 2011 during the campaign [for political reasons] -- an he bent over backwards to intentionlly withdraw Millions and Millionions of dollars in "legal" deductions -- and he STILL just barely squeeked over the 14% line...still less than what Middle-class Americans are paying.

    And I'm still curious how he could promise that 20% across the board tax cut to everyone, and reduce the defeicet without cutting Military operations or touch Social Security.

    Warren Beffet is right.
    Conservatives are wrong.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Jan. 10, 2013 8:48 a.m.

    Mountain man no one has demonized the rich..despite how many times you say this it is just plain flase. However, we are saying that the masses are the victims of the wealthy, and to say differently is in your words detaching yourself from reality. The ever widening income gap is the simplest of proofs among many proofs. And to say the recent income tax increase will do "nothing" to solve our debt problem is simply defying arithmatic. However the tax increase is as much about social justice as it is about arithmatic.

    I was at dinner the other night with one of the .0001% and the topic turned to how they had gone from being part of the .001% to the .0001% and how as they collected their hundreds of millions 75% of their employees lost their jobs. While I like this person personally and I reckonize he had to work hard to accomplish what he did..it still doesn't blind me to the fact that 100 people were the victims of a system that he feels he's entitled to, and that I think he is wrong.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 10, 2013 7:10 a.m.

    The author has it backwards, Obama and the Democrats have successfully followed the old political strategy of divide and conquer; demonize the rich, convince people they are victims of the rich, divide the nation and promise social justice; retribution. In history, this strategy has always given rise to dictatorships. To say or believe different is detaching yourself from reality. Perhaps the worst part of our situation is that these recent tax increases will do nothing to solve our debt problems, will kill jobs, and decrease the number of people paying taxes. As we have seen in many European countries this is totally economically unsustainable in which we in America are about to participate, all to the applause of the duped.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 10, 2013 7:02 a.m.

    Completely agree. The school ground name calling needs to come to an end. Lets debate solution, numbers, approaches, but let stop the class warfare of branding calling one particularly segment of society unworthy, unskilled, leaches on society. Few choose poverty - if they have a way out.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Jan. 10, 2013 6:18 a.m.

    Mr. Thomas,
    "Class warfare" is a term that can only be used by conservatives against liberals. Them's the rules. Conservatives don't engage in "class warfare", they "support capitalism" or "defend liberty" or "protect earners from the entitlement culture". Remember Romney's 47% lie? By all measures that fits the definition of class warfare, but to conservatives it was "telling the truth". Even if it was anything but.