re:pragmatistferlifeWhat is your solution - wealth redistribution?
Read the Communist Manifesto and compare to Barack Obama's ideology and get
back to me will ya?
In a country we all "very much" love, I know of no single individual who
pays "no taxes" or expects to be supported by those who "do pay
taxes." All I can say is you need to get out more guy! 50% pay NO federal
income taxes and the entire sales pitch of team Obama was to re-enforce the
entitlement mentality. Also as far as love of country YES I love my country -
the constitution and the founders as well as all the great brave patriots like
my dad who fought in foreign wars for this country but I will say with no
hesitation I HATE the socialism / progressive movement which seeks to destroy
that very constitution. That same socialist / progressive /radical movement
happens to own the White House at the present time.
This post actually highlights the biggest problem in the United States and that
is low information people. You can go to Google and find out in 5 seconds that
only roughly 50% pay ANY federal income tax in the US which also means roughly
50% DON'T pay any federal taxes. It isn't demonizing to state facts is
it?? Facts are facts and too many of these "low information" citizens
simply are lazy and don't do ANY research to base their opinions on.
Whether you watch MSNBC or Fox News you need to turn off the TV and do some
actual research on your OWN because as the X-Files states - The Truth Is Out
There!! The internet gives you all the tools you need for simple research and of
course you have to check your sources but that is true in any sort of research.
To ignorantly assume non-factual propaganda is tragic and that is precisely why
Barack Obama is president for a second term. No we aren't all in this
together - that is a fact. There are the "freeloaders" and the worker
bees and one political party that rewards laziness.
Obama seeks social justice. The biggest socioeconomic injustices are to those
born in 3rd world countries, versus those born in, say, the USA. He promised to
"heal the planet". From his own words and works it looks like he wants
to make sure the rich USA doesn't lead the world in wealth or influence.
Too bad. The USofA has done a lot of great things in the world. If we make
ourselves too broke to help others, many will suffer greatly. Maybe
Obama thinks Iran will be nicer if they come to be a world power, or North
Korea, or Venezuela. But somehow I don't think they will commit money,
troops, and technology to build up other nations, as we have done.
Its not that liberals "demonize" the wealthy--we are opposed to the U.S.
becoming a plutocracy. Our economic and tax systems, over the past 3 decades
are creating greater inequality. Middle class earners have a greater chance of
falling into the lower class than in moving to the upper class. Upward
mobility--the American dream--is becoming just that--a dream.Republicans/conservatives on the other hand, venerate the wealthy, without
analyzing the factors, means and methods of that wealth accumulation--being
wealthy indicates superiority worthy of admiration and respect.
Re: Christian 24-7 "Since liberals see the rich as rotten thieves..."
Do liberals really see the rich that way? The ascertion seems awfully general.
Marxists don't see the wealthy that way at all. As Marx would say
"it's not the people it's the system." In capitalism we all
role play. The plebes play their role and the rich play their role.
"But there is a bigger dirty secret. Since liberals see the rich as rotten
thieves, it follows that they must see the richest country in the world as a
rotten thief country. So they are enacting policies to bring the rich in America
down to their knees, and America itself down to its knees. They seek the
destruction of the country"LOL! You should create Disney
villains, Christian. You'd be great at it, you have a good imagination, a
simplified black-and-white world view, a dramatic flair, and you don't let
reality get in the way of a good story line. You could call it "Noble Prince
Capital Gains and the Evil Jealous Redistributionists."
JoeCapitalist2You are so right, except the last part. You see,
illegals can get some services but until they are legal, the right to vote is
pretty allusive. So there is no vote loss by eliminating jobs for illegals.I wish Romney had cued in on this idea during the debate when Obama
bragged that there are fewer illegals in the US today than when he took office.
It was a no brainer that when they come to work and earn, and there are no jobs,
they go back home. Great immigration plan, if you are a democrat. You can
pretend to love the illegals keeping certain demographics voting for you, while
getting illegals to go home. Never mind that it is so hard on American workers.
You can buy their votes with unemployment benefits for 2 years.But
there is a bigger dirty secret. Since liberals see the rich as rotten thieves,
it follows that they must see the richest country in the world as a rotten thief
country. So they are enacting policies to bring the rich in America down to
their knees, and America itself down to its knees. They seek the destruction of
Discussions about class warefare,so called, need to include Marx's concept
of surplus value. Why is it appropriate to tax the rich at higher top marginal
rates? Because labor, the 9 to 5 crowd, produce a surpluse, i.e. surplus value,
for which they are not compensated. This surplus is the source of profits and
ultimately capital. Think this is nonsense? Well then, answer Marx's
question - where to profits come from in a market system which sees mostly the
exchange of equivalents? The answer is surplus value. For this reason
so-called entitlements are justified. Of course contemporary capitalism wants
nothing of these programs and intends to terminate them as soon as possible.
Indeed, the goal is to deep 6 baby boomers as fast as possible as we age. Now
THAT is class warefare.
LDS?Lib,I see you cannot refute the rest of my comment, about those
receiving MORE back on their federal return than they paid in TOTAL taxes. How can one say, and reaffirm, as you did, that NO ONE pays no taxes
when clearly MANY are getting MORE back from the feds than they pay in total
taxes without lying? Stop lying, please. I have seen the tax returns. Have
you?How can one say, and reaffirm, that those making $8500 pay MORE
than $4500 in total taxes without lying? Either that, or being woefully
ignorant? which is it lib? ignorance or deceit?yes, self-righteous
libs, who appear so uncertain about their convictions they need to include them
in their name, calling the truth a lie is a sign of the times
"Is it true or not that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes?
If it is true, who pays for their federal benefits? Case closed!"What is a federal benefit?The right to vote? The security
with not being blown away because of the protection that the (federal) American
Armed Forces provide?Social Security? Welfare? Pell Grants?What does it mean to receive "federal benefits?" What are they
I just realized that what Obama and the Democrats are really trying to do with
all these liberal fiscal policies (tax and demonize the rich, ruin businesses,
get people used to low growth and economic success). They are trying to solve
the illegal immigration problem!For over two centuries, the U.S. has
been a shining light on a hill. The problem is that light has attracted too many
moths. If we just dim the light a bit or maybe even make it so you can't
see it unless you come real close, then fewer foreigners will want to come
here.We will get less people sneaking across the boarder, fewer
illegals getting government handouts, fewer voters for liberal policies,...er,
wait...never mind...scratch that theory.
lost in DCWest Jordan, UTLDS?libCannot, or will not
distinguish between income and other taxes? See my first comment to Donald. See
also the comment to pragmatist about not demonizing the rich. Calling the truth
a lie (as you are wont to do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.9:53 a.m. Jan. 10, 2013============== Read the article
Lost, It was in reply to the letter by a Neo-Con saying "No tax",
as in - no taxes of any kind.I remember, because my very first response to
that ridiiculous remark was that EVERYONE pays some sort of tax -- even the
begger buying a cup of coffee from McDonald's.And if Neo-Cons want to
talk about Mitt Romney's mythical 47% - then please be specifical.But
to say 47% pay NO taxes whatsoever - as was implied - is a conservative Lie.I will agree with you, Calling the truth a lie (as you are wont to
do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.And self-righteous
Conservatives are guilty of it all the time.
Protecting and worshipping the wealthy is what conservatives do best.Christian 24-7 is apparently a satirical name, since ayn rand's "The
virtue of selfishness" seem to be your bible.
@ UtahBlueDevil. Actually, I do know who most of the 47% are;47.7 million
Americans receiving food stamps, about 1 in 6 Americans or about 17% (not 14%)
This according to CNN.1.4 million Americans are in the military today, not
12.8 million. I personally know dozens of people who served in the military and
most of them pay federal income taxes.Many elderly people pay federal
income taxes. Just because you reach a certain age doesn't mean you are
exempt.And by the way, you are also wrong that I think I am better than
the 47%. You are completely wrong about me or what I think.
@mountain man The problem is not becoming successful but rather crushing
every last dime out of those that helped you gain and now maintain that success.
you really can be successful without hurting others. There was actually a time
and still are a few successful people that understood/ understand that in order
to be successful that both the owner and the workers where necessary and
deserved to be treated fairly, now days many companies seem to see those that
help generate their wealth as nothing more then a nuisance and a burden to their
To "LDS Liberal" it is your ilk that are spreading the lies. Most
conservatives are quite careful to state that there is 47% that pay no income
taxes. It is the lie that your ilk spreads saying that " conservatives that
there are some Americans who pay NO taxes". Why do you continue to
perpetuate lies?To "VIDAR" Social Security and Medicare are
not Federal Income taxes. Those are payroll taxes, yes there is a
difference.To "Liberal Today" and how do the rich take money
away from the poor? Is it wrong to sell the poor food, clothing, cars, phones,
and anything else they need at a fair market price?What percent of
their income would you determine is "fair"?To
"UtahBlueDevil" you are wrong. The 47% that are receiving government
aid are the elderly and the working poor. About half are the elderly, and the
other half are actual poor people. The military does not even factor into the
By the way Christian and Mountainman... do you have any idea who this 46% are.
12.8 million are those serving in the armed services.54%
are the elderlyOnly 4% get housing aideOnly 14 percent
get food aide.The characterization you all have of this 46/47%
really does a disservice to these people. A large part of these people are
they who are responsible for the freedoms we have gained and now enjoy. If you
want to feel you are better than someone, I am sorry but the number of people
you are better than is far smaller than you think.
@Mountiainman..... case far from closed. What you are saying is a taxpayer is
only one who pays one particular tax. Even my father in law that ran a business
- where his accountant was able to zero out much of his income - he very much
considered taxes on his income. If you look at someone making only $25,000 a
year working at Walmart and look at the total taxes still removed from their
paycheck, social security, state taxa and disability, they paid more as a
percentage of their income than does Mitt Romney.This holier then
thou mentality of some on the right, thinking they are the only ones working for
a living, is delusional and most self serving. I know too many republicans who
are not, so I know this is a false statement, but some of the comments here make
some conservatives look very self enamored.
Emajor,How sad that you can quote "defend liberty" and think
it is a bad thing. Dependence is not liberty. Redistribution is not
liberty, nor is it justice. But then you probably rail against the
Pledge of Allegiance too.VIDARNice try at obscuring the
truth, but SSN tax, aka payroll tax, is not the same as federal income tax.
MountanmanHayden, IDNot true that 47% of americans pay no
federal income tax.Social security is a federal income tax which all
workers pay. To call social security anything but a federal tax is untrue.Businesses constantly say any tax they pay is passed on to consumers; so
anytime you buy anything you are also paying federal income tax as well.
Is it true or not that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes? If it
is true, who pays for their federal benefits? Case closed!
The rich only get rich by taking away from the poor. They deserve to be
demonized. They need to pay more in taxes to make things fair.This
isn't class warfare, it is just the poor defending themselves against the
class warfare created by the rich.
'Obama and the Democrats have successfully followed the old political
strategy of divide and conquer; demonize the rich, convince people they are
victims of the rich,'Well, unless Obama was born back in the
1700's and was able to influence events back then... he really had nothing
to do with Adam Smith, his prescriptions for capitalism, and his call for a
progressive tax system. Why you associate progressive tax policy as a
"liberal" invention... who knows. The twisting this as
class warfare is purely marketing buzz. Pretty much the only ones going around
"attacking" the other group are conservatives - most of whom this will
not impact at all. I have seen plenty of "demonizing" of the mythical
47% who don't pay takes..... very little demonizing the other way around.
We are talking about a tax change of less than $3,000 yearly for someone with an
adjusted income of $400,000. It that is warfare... we have some pretty wimpy
people out there. What worse is those who claim those making minimum wage are
soaking it to the rich.Class warfare..... right.
All taxes are paid by consumers. Every tax paid by every person in the USA is
included in the price of goods sold to people who consume food, fuel, clothing,
Since when did America become a land of no opportunity? Nobel Laureate Joseph
Stiglitz recently declared that "the U.S. worked hard to create the American
dream of opportunity. But today, that dream is a myth." Like many others, he
focuses on the growing concentration of income in America. While I worry about
it, too, I also fear that we've become obsessed with income inequality, to
the point that our leadership beats up on hardworking people who chase their
dreams and become successful as a result.
M. Donald,While I do not agree that everyone who does not pay income tax
expects everyone else to support them, there are people who pay less in taxes
(including SS, state income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc) than they receive
back on their federal tax return. Most, if not all, will have their taxes done
within in the next week or two. There are many people who will claim less than
$10k in income, yet because of various credits will receive a refund of around
$4500. There is NO WAY their total tax exceeds $4500.As for
demonizing one because of their economic status, you’re talking about the
DNC hate speech demonizing the 1%, correct?Pragmatist,the DNC
has NEVER said a bad thing about the 1%? The very connotation has come to be
derogatory. Take off the dem-colored glasses and see the world as it really
is.LDS?libCannot, or will not distinguish between income and
other taxes? See my first comment to Donald. See also the comment to
pragmatist about not demonizing the rich. Calling the truth a lie (as you are
wont to do) is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.
When both Ronald Reagan and George Bush Jr. were promoting their tax cuts, they
both insisted that one of their prime objectives was to entirely remove low
income workers from the income tax rolls. So the two Republican presidents got
their tax plans passed, they did what they said they would do, but today's
Republicans don't like it anymore, so it's Obama's fault.
Terrific letter, Mr. Thomas. Very well done indeed.
@mountain man thank you for proving emajors point.
May I nominate this as LETTER OF THE MONTH?One of the previous
comments here starkly illustrates exactly what this author means in this letter.
Great letter M. Donald Thomas.The lie being fed by conservatives
that there are some Americans who pay NO taxes is what's dividing this
country.BTW- No one is demonizing the rich. We are only demonizing
the unfair tax advantages and loop-holes they recieve that the rest of
can't.Remember -- Mitt Romney had to severlly re-adjust his own
taxes for 2011 during the campaign [for political reasons] -- an he bent over
backwards to intentionlly withdraw Millions and Millionions of dollars in
"legal" deductions -- and he STILL just barely squeeked over the 14%
line...still less than what Middle-class Americans are paying.And
I'm still curious how he could promise that 20% across the board tax cut to
everyone, and reduce the defeicet without cutting Military operations or touch
Social Security.Warren Beffet is right.Conservatives are
Mountain man no one has demonized the rich..despite how many times you say this
it is just plain flase. However, we are saying that the masses are the victims
of the wealthy, and to say differently is in your words detaching yourself from
reality. The ever widening income gap is the simplest of proofs among many
proofs. And to say the recent income tax increase will do "nothing" to
solve our debt problem is simply defying arithmatic. However the tax increase
is as much about social justice as it is about arithmatic. I was at
dinner the other night with one of the .0001% and the topic turned to how they
had gone from being part of the .001% to the .0001% and how as they collected
their hundreds of millions 75% of their employees lost their jobs. While I like
this person personally and I reckonize he had to work hard to accomplish what he
did..it still doesn't blind me to the fact that 100 people were the victims
of a system that he feels he's entitled to, and that I think he is wrong.
The author has it backwards, Obama and the Democrats have successfully followed
the old political strategy of divide and conquer; demonize the rich, convince
people they are victims of the rich, divide the nation and promise social
justice; retribution. In history, this strategy has always given rise to
dictatorships. To say or believe different is detaching yourself from reality.
Perhaps the worst part of our situation is that these recent tax increases will
do nothing to solve our debt problems, will kill jobs, and decrease the number
of people paying taxes. As we have seen in many European countries this is
totally economically unsustainable in which we in America are about to
participate, all to the applause of the duped.
Completely agree. The school ground name calling needs to come to an end.
Lets debate solution, numbers, approaches, but let stop the class warfare of
branding calling one particularly segment of society unworthy, unskilled,
leaches on society. Few choose poverty - if they have a way out.
Mr. Thomas,"Class warfare" is a term that can only be used by
conservatives against liberals. Them's the rules. Conservatives
don't engage in "class warfare", they "support capitalism"
or "defend liberty" or "protect earners from the entitlement
culture". Remember Romney's 47% lie? By all measures that fits the
definition of class warfare, but to conservatives it was "telling the
truth". Even if it was anything but.