Re: LDS Liberal, 1:49: I think you're looking at this from the wrong
direction and missing the point. Dr. Moench cites his mother's death as
supposed evidence that the inversion CAUSED it. But such a claim (or even the
implication) has no basis in science whatsoever. As I said
previously, Dr. Moench likes to cite two things that happened at the same time,
and then claim that one naturally caused the other. But this ignores the
scientific method. He does this not to promote a greater understanding of the
facts, or to advance a viable all-around solution, but rather to promote his
environmental activist agenda.
@procuradorfiscalJust call DAQ or look on their website. They have
identified the main components of pm 2.5 It is totally incorrect to say that sea
salt contributes anything to our winter time pm 2.5.
GoBananaPROVO, UTDr. Moench fails to mention his mother died in her
90's and had survived years of inversions without ill effects.1:21 p.m. Jan. 9, 2013============= My Great
GrandFather smoked all his life and died at the age of 96.Using your lame
logic in that comment doesn't mean tobacco DOESN'T cause cancer or
Dr. Moench fails to mention his mother died in her 90's and had survived
years of inversions without ill effects.
Re: "How do you figure that the "Sea spray aerols" are the major
source of particulates . . . ?"It wasn't me that figured.
This is a well-known datum. Studies as far back as '59 characterized
Wasatch Front particulates as being primarily chlorides and sulfates, orginating
in brine. Winter levels may rise in the absence of strong winds, because of
application of salt to roads, and the aerosolization of that brine by traffic,
but it's still Salt Lake salt.Globally, natural aerosol
concentrations are typically 5 times larger than anthropogenic aerosols [search
"Erupe 2008"]. That ratio may be skewed some by local conditions, but
Utah air particulates are dominated by these natural, mostly benign, chloride
and sulfate aerosols.While Utah faces a few minor air-quality
issues, we should avoid being buffaloed into expensive, but useless restrictions
on our freedoms by disingenuous liberal bleating over non-hazardous atmospheric
components, especially particulates, which will always be high in Utah because
of geology, NOT anthropology.And which need not -- cannot -- be
addressed by any totalitarian, socialist, tree-hugger political scam.
PeanutGallerySalt Lake City, UTYes, air pollution can be a
serious problem and should be addressed in reasonable ways. But if we follow Dr.
Moench's recommendations, this would further damage our economy and kill
jobs, while providing little or no provable health benefit.9:54 a.m.
Jan. 9, 2013============== How so?The number
reason companies refuse to come here in the first place, or leave it in droves
is our poor air quality.I'll bet more jobs are LOST or never
created and our economy suffers far MORE from Utah's bad air quality, than
your assumed assumption and fear about lost jobs and a worse economy.Besides - What the good Doctor is saying is that killing jobs is preferred to
killing people.You on the other hand, are saying just the oppossite.
Dr. Moench's claims are merely guesses and anecdotes. He is an
environmental activist who is opposed to mining, fossil fuels, and nuclear
power. But his opposition is based on ideology, emotion, and manufactured fear,
not science. There are no sound scientific studies showing that people die
from air pollution.Dr. Moench likes to cite two things that happened
at the same time, and then claim that naturally one caused the other.Yes, air pollution can be a serious problem and should be addressed in
reasonable ways. But if we follow Dr. Moench's recommendations, this
would further damage our economy and kill jobs, while providing little or no
provable health benefit.
@procuradorfiscalI have to respond to your comment. How do you
figure that the "Sea spray aerols" are the major source of particulates
especially during an inversion when there is very little movement or mixing of
air. And why would Utah County and Cache County have higher levels than Salt
Lake and Davis Counties. It makes no sense. Furthermore there has been no
validation, that I could find, of what you speak. It has more to do with the
confined "air sheds" in these locations and products of combustion that
build up in the environment without the typical warming currents or weather to
move pollutants out of the region.
Re: ". . . pm2.5 is not a toxicity characterization. It is merely a level of
particulate concentration . . . ."Try again."pm2.5" refers, not to any particular level or concentration, but to
the size of the particles composing the particulate matter. In the case of
pm2.5, it refers to particles less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter, pm10, to
those less than 10 micrometers.And, the composition and source of
these particles is of surpassing importance.Particles originating
from the evaporation of brine, called "sea spray aerosols," are composed
mostly of salts left behind when water evaporates from brine, and may be carried
considerable distances -- many kilometers, in a recent study -- from their point
of origin.Sorry, but the fact is, the Great Salt Lake and
surrounding salt pans really ARE our primary source of particulates. And, those
particulates really are NOT dangerous to human health.That you may
not have heard of it doesn't change the facts.
Wish We had the luxury of being able to stay in our homes during an inversion.
Unfortunately we have to work for a living! We have to drive our cars to work or
we don't eat. What is the solution, Doc Moench?
@procuradorfiscalI have never heard of such nonsense. Are you
saying that during the stagnant weather conditions The Great Salt Lake is
influencing pollutant levels in places like Cache Valley and Utah County but not
places like Tooele. By the way the pm2.5 is not a toxicity characterization.
It is merely a level of particulate concentration that if at certain
concentrations for a period of time can affect breathing especially for those
who have respiratory ailments. This has been demonstrated after years of study.
Where is your rational thinking? Who is the real lemming here?
From Global warming, to our own little version of it right here in the Great
Salt Lake Valley.and conservatives deal with it like ostrich's
sticking their ignorant heads in the sand...
Every armchair climatologist in utah (and there are a lot of them) knows man
does not affect climate. It's how we convince ourselves we don't have
to do anything about it.
Re: "Right today the Wasatch Front counties (Utah,Salt lake and Davis) plus
Cache county are recording the highest pm2.5 concentrations in the entire
country."Before we all follow the lemmings over this cliff, note
that the primary source of particulates in our air is known as "sea spray
aerosols," though our sea happens to be the Great Salt Lake.These particulates have never been shown to be harmful to humans. Good thing,
since 80% of the people in the world live near the primary source of them.
Right today the Wasatch Front counties (Utah,Salt lake and Davis) plus Cache
county are recording the highest pm2.5 concentrations in the entire country. We
are exceeding the 24-hr standard by almost three times. Not one government
official seems concern. Gov Herbert is more concerned about exploiting energy
supplies than conserving or minimizing the effect of fuel use during inversions.
What does it take to open up their thinking?
Brian, did you turn your lights on, use a computer, cell phone, go to your
practice. Then the gunk in the air is yours as well. Because you complain does
not eliminate your contribution.
I question the validity of the mortality statistics bandied about by the UCS and
others. A valid claim that 1000 - 2000 people die because of air pollution in
Utah would have to be based on a comparison of the same demographic in the same
location with and without the pollution. Such a comparison simply does not
exist. People die from combinations of causes. Fact is, air pollution on the
Wasatch Front has improved over the past 30 years even while population
increased.It's a game to some to use statistics to further
their own pet cause. The UCS is playing such a game in hopes of funneling money
and power to themselves.
Cherilyn, Procurer, etc., seem happy with the choking status quo. They just
don't care. They're simply irresponsible and selfish, which are the
core attributes of conservatives.
atl134– Don't use science and facts it only confuses them. They've been trained by their radio to watch for out "Truth and
Science" code words for "Lies & Alchemy."They
don't trust things they can't see, like clean air, they like to be
able to see and taste the air.
@Cherilyn Eager"Also, why are chemtrails from planes that fly over
being ignored in this discussion? "Because planes that fly
overhead are above the surface inversion. Any pollution from those planes is
able to leave the valley since it's over mountaintop height."So perhaps Utah should ban people and a growing population. "Obviously not going to happen but more people does make the problem
worse. A 25% population increase theoretically means what a 5 day inversion
would look like before only takes 4 days to build up assuming no increases in
energy efficiency in that timespan.@procuradorfiscal"But,
as you're certainly aware, it's not medically necessity."Try telling that to my friend with a lung condition who always gets sick
during inversions and has had a heck of a time with the current one we have.@higv"Our lifestyle increases our lngevity now."No, medical science increases longevity. Our lifestyle is why our life
expectancy is lower than a decent number of other nations with issues like
obesity, smoking, drinking, lack of exercise, and other issues decreasing our
Re: "As I write this, I have imprisoned myself in my house . . . ."Any chance we can convince you to continue your prison sentence
indefinitely? Funny how we never see your posts on clear days.It's certainly your right to stay indoors, if you like. But, as
you're certainly aware, it's not medically necessity.As
another commenter pointed out, and as those of us know that have been here
longer than the last couple real estate boom-bust cycles, Utah air is much, MUCH
cleaner today than it used to be. Back in the day when we would only panic over
REAL health issues.Somehow, we not only survived, we enjoyed
oursleves. We played outside. We went skiing, sledding, hiking, hunting. We
revelled in Utah winters, even though snow was gray and the air smelled of coal
and sometimes made our eyes water.We didn't sicken and die, as
true-believing activists attempt to convince us we will.Real people,
Doc, just don't believe tree-huggers' disingenuous bleating.
No question Salt Lake has a pollution problem, but to clarify this situation.
My deceased mother was raised in Salt Lake a century ago. According to her
account, “spring cleaning” was to remove the soot from kitchen
walls. Even with a small population, few cars, minimal use of wood and coal,
the valley was known for air inversions creating a blanketing haze across the
valley. So perhaps Utah should ban people and a growing population.
Also, why are chemtrails from planes that fly over being ignored in this
discussion? My father was a world-renowned urologist in Hollywood,
California, chief of staff at Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center, professor
of surgery at USC and on the State Board of Medical Examiners. While your
mother died from air pollution, he died from government pollution: a heart
attack, related to stress caused by the new Medicare-socialized medicine
legislation of 1965, combined with the insurgence of ambulance chasers. With a
clean slate, his malpractice insurance developed a computer glitch that
prevented him from performing surgery-his livelihood-for several months. Please
tell me you are not also a supporter of a federal government-controlled and
regulated medical industry as well.
We always had the resources we use on earth. Of course people want clean air?
Thing is why are people living longer now, and when did people not die of the
above things. We are all going to die and some of those things people die
regardless. Our lifestyle increases our lngevity now.