Published: Monday, Dec. 24 2012 12:00 a.m. MST
What about comprehensive tax reform with taxes and spending cuts necessary to
bring bring down the debt, pay for necessary services, and create a more fair
economic system?Conservative extremists will do all they can to
protect the 1% from paying their fair share in taxes. And it's all over a
3.6% increase in the marginal tax rate for this group which was supposed to
increase automatically a year ago. We should be talking about
putting more money in the pockets of middle class people, not helping make the
elite rich richer. A dogmatic view on taxes is not realistic when middle class
wages have been stagnant while the wealthy have seen unprecendented growth over
the last 30 years.
"What we need to do is stop spending"Wow, Pati, it sounds so
simple when you say it like that. Why hasn't anyone noticed this solution
before? With 300 million of us and a fragile economy, it can't be that hard
to decide what to cut and who to affect, right?
Certainly we should control (not stop) spending as well as raise tax rates on
the wealthy. But the author complains about a problem -- the "special
interest deductions and loopholes" -- when the solution is obvious. Just
close those loopholes at the same time as rates are raised. Easier said than
done, of course, but that's what effective tax reform must include.
Some enterprising conservative needs to propose a budget that spends only 15% of
GDP, because that's what taxes currently bring in. No one has done it
because the results would be completely unacceptable to the American people.Americans only favor lower spending in the abstract. As soon as actual
cuts are proposed, huge majorities oppose them. Taxes need to go up on the rich,
but they need to go up on all of the rest of us too. Once Americans are paying
for the full cost of their government, they may be more willing to accept
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt
should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and
controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome
become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public
assistance." - Cicero , 55 BCSo, evidently we've learned nothing
in the past 2,067 years.
The problem that Pati doesn't want to admit, is that the same rich and
special interest groups which prevent folks from paying their fair share of
taxes also prevent significant cuts to be made.Want to see an
example? Imagine if federal funding for Utah's roads was cut?
Imagine if we closed down Hill Air Force Base?Imagine the uproar
from Utah politicians and special interest groups if we "cut spending"
in these areas. Same thing applies to other "deficit hawks" like
Paul Ryan. On one hand he talks about the need to cut spending while secretly
writing to Vice President Joe Biden for additional federal funding to his state.
Hilarious!I think the first step should be overturning
the repub supported Citizens United. Then we should also put into place STRICT
restrictions on campaigning (limit it to only a few weeks per election) and
@ Mountainman"So, evidently we've learned nothing in the
past 2,067 years."Great comment.Apparently we
haven't. I mean, look at the top earners. They aren't
working like the rest of us yet are earning the most! Look at Mitt Romney for
crying out loud. He made more money in 1 year without working than most of us
"Joe Sixpacks" will earn in a lifetime of working 40 hrs per week! When will we learn?When will we learn that taxes are far too
low on the rich?When will we learn that they will buy up government as
soon as they can?When will we learn that we must fight for our freedom?
When will we learn that our Democracy is at a constant war. A war between
workers and those who wish to transform it into a Aristocracy ruled by corporate
elitists? We see it everyday how they have bent the tax laws, regulations,
voting laws, and influence legislation. When will we learn who the
REAL job creators are? As long as the rich own everything the economy will
continue to stagnate and Joe Sixpack will have to work harder for less.
@ Real Maverick, Surely you know that Obama's taxes on the rich will only
bring in enough revenue to run the government less than 10 days! How are we
going to pay for the other 355 days? Just keep your hands clapped tightly over
your ears and keep on chanting, "tax the rich, tax the rich" even though
it will not, can not solve our government's run away spending problems.The greatest Aristocracy in the world is in the White House! Your enemy
isn't a corporation, because a corporation can not confiscate your
property, can't tax you, can't impose regulations on you, can't
take away your freedoms, But big government can and is. The real job creators
are the guys signing your paycheck and the biggest threat they have is big
government! Don't believe it, just try running a business and hiring people
in America today! It will be the best education you can receive.
Mountanman [sic], I run my own small business and have for over 15 years. Doing
quite well at it actually. And I can tell you that I've never had any
government regulation negatively impact me in a significant way. Are there
regulations? Sure. I've got various licensing requirements and insurance
mandates (e.g., workers comp coverage for employees) and I can't just go
out and do any kind of business activity I want. But then, I can't go
driving through red lights without getting arrested. Or worse, hurting myself
and others. It's the government (i.e., social) controls that bring me
health, security and, yes, wealth. You right wing conservatives
never seem to get it: government is our collective will and it brings tremendous
benefits to all of us. Can it get out of control? Of course. Do we have to watch
it like a hawk? Certainly. But please, spare me the knee jerk rhetoric about how
government never does anything good. It's nonsense. I like having sewers,
police and fire fighters. I believe most elected officials are, for the most
part, just trying to do the best job they can.
Sorry, MM, but corporations DO find ways to tax Americans. They have found any
number of devious ways to tax common folks.While their
"taxation" may not be in the form of deductions from our paychecks, the
effect is the same. They have, with help from an army of lobbyists, managed to
buy an incredible number of corporate tax breaks. They have shipped our jobs
overseas. Where they once shared the profits they made with the production
workers who made those profits possible, they have now shifted the money to the
pockets of CEOs and corporate boards. By seeking only short-term riches instead
of looking to the future they have helped destroy America's middle class.
And in the process they have built an upper class aristocracy that includes
people like Mitt Romney, the Koch brothers, and the Walton family.What is really needed is a complete overhaul not only of America's
spending, but of America's tax code.Read Hedrick Smith's
excellent book "Who Stole the American Dream."
Gandlalf, that comment is one of THE BEST I think I've ever seen here.Thank you very much for actually THINKING.
@ One old man. I saw the documentary of "who stole the American Dream"
on TV it was total fiction! Here is why! May I make a suggestion? Teach those
"evil" corporations a lesson. Boycott them! That's right, never,
never purchase ANYTHING produced by a corporation. Shut off your electricity,
invent and manufacture your own medicines, get rid of your car, your food, your
clothing (unless you grow and produce your own) and no fair using any machines,
tools or any convenience, all produced by "evil" corporations! To do
otherwise and to believe and say the "interesting" things you do, makes
you a huge hypocrite!
MM -- complete nonsense there.Please stop twisting what others
write. That is a hate radio trick that simply does nothing to solve the
problems our nation faces.Corporations per se are not
"evil." But the management practices of some of them are. And it is
that duplicity that is harming us.Honest and sensible management by
and of our corporations will be of benefit not only to ordinary Americans, it
will also benefit the corporations themselves in the long termBut as
long as the current practice of looking only to short term profits for a select
few prevails, we will all end up in the dump. And the short sighted
corporations will be there with the rest of us.Read the book.
Think. It takes effort, but you might actually learn something.What
is happening now is being enabled by paid off lawmakers. In the end, it will
come back to destroy all of us. Those of us who seek solid information and
avoid the rants of hateful others are trying hard to avoid that.
MM is clearly not thinking for himself but is following the mindless minority
which is becoming less and less politically relevant with each passing day.
2014 can't come soon enough! Bye bye Tea Party! It was nice (not really)
Raising taxes is the left's way to punish and not to balance the budget. It
is political pandering and neither rational or sound economics. That's
"solid information." Letting the wealthy spend their money creates jobs
without increasing the deficit. Those gauche Utah McMansions required many
carpenters, painters and craftsmen to complete them and the property taxes make
all of our tax burden lighter. Corporations respond to tax policy as witnessed
in Ireland's success. Corporate leaders have the fiduciary responsibility
to increase share holder equity. Whether you have a state run or private
retirement plan, those funds are invested in, hopefully, profitable
corporations. If you want to complain about corporate greed, go look in the
@ Old man. The rest of the "experiment" is while you will not send any
of your money to "evil" corporations from now on, I suggest you
don't send in your money to the IRS and see what happens to you, unless of
course you are one of the 47% getting a free ride, guaranteeing a vote for
Obama.@ Gandalf. Congratulations on your successful business. Be advised
Obama and the Democrats are about to punish you with higher taxes and Obamacare
taxes, if you have employees! Get back to us in a year and give us a report,
If the number of "like" buttons pushed is any kind of indication, it
appears that we can be thankful that the majority of readers here disagree more
with the likes of MM than they do with those whose posts are more sensible and
factual.Reality, it is said, has a distinctly leftward slant.
Education is a wonderful thing because it helps displace faulty opinions with
some that are fact based.I rest my case.
@MountanmanOkay so then we can't cut planned parenthood because that
only brings in maybe 1 hour of gov't spending. We can't cut PBS
because that's only another hour out of the year. Why can't we do
something that helps with 10 days? Yeah it doesn't balance the budget but
goodness... nobody has ever gotten close to proposing a balanced budget this
decade, why don't we just take what progress we can get? It's not like
there are zero spending cuts, Obama's even offering chained CPI which cuts
social security (well, more like slows the rise in social security payouts down
the road) a cut to entitlements conservatives say Democrats refuse to touch.
@Ying Fah:"What about comprehensive tax reform with taxes and spending
cuts necessary to bring bring down the debt...?"What about
cutting the size of government down to what Americans can afford?"Conservative extremists will do all they can to protect the 1% from
paying their fair share in taxes."The 1% pays the lion's
share of taxes now."We should be talking about putting more
money in the pockets of middle class people, not helping make the elite rich
richer."The way to put more money in the pockets of the middle
class is to create jobs. The way to kill jobs is to extract money from the job
creators... through raising taxes on them. Does the poor create jobs?@Curmudgeon:"Just close those loopholes..."Could you
list the loopholes you'd like to see closed?@Roland Kayser:"Taxes need to go up on the rich..."Taxes ARE up for the
rich. They pay more than anyone. Some pay nothing at all. Furthermore,
requiring the rich to pay more is unconstitutional under the 'equal
protection' clause which requires everyone be treated equal under the
law... including tax law.
@one old man:"... corporations DO find ways to tax Americans."Are you mixing corporations with governments?And, by the
way, Corporations don't pay taxes. Any 'tax' it pays is added to
the cost of the goods and services it produces, thus passing the 'tax'
on to the consumer od those goods and services."They have, with
help from an army of lobbyists, managed to buy an incredible number of corporate
tax breaks."Any corporate tax breaks mostly reduces the cost of
produced goods and services (seem above)."They have shipped our
jobs overseas."They had to, to keep competitive If there is
someone to blame for shipping jobs overseas it's labor unions who keep
wages and benefits sky high. We are in a global market now and must meet
foreign cost of production to stay alive."And in the process
they have built an upper class aristocracy that includes people like Mitt
Romney, the Koch brothers, and the Walton family."Spoken like a
good socialist."What is really needed is a complete overhaul not
only of America's spending, but of America's tax code."Please list your overhaul proposals.
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