at RedShirtAfter reading many of your posts especially ( 12:26 p.m.
Dec. 14), I can't help but wonder... is your favorite fictional character
is the Sheriff of Nottingham?at anti-liarYour rants
seems somewhat familar. Are you sure you don't live in South Jordan?
If it wasn't for the jobs problem, we would love to have more Americans.
The difference between legal and illegal immigration doesn’t have any
thing to do with the problems of jobs for the American people of the worker
class. Legal immigrants who will work for less money will take American jobs
and displace the American worker just the same as the illegal.Illegal immigration is not the problem, it is just a symptom of the failure of
our economic system to change to fit the needs of today and not 200 years ago.
Technology, automation, machines and better tools have reduced the amount of
human labor at the same time as the number of humans has increased greatly. The difficult decisions are about changing the way we share, distribute
and recycle the wealth of our being humans. Else we’ve got to kill a lot
of people to get back to the balance of people versus resources. As
for expecting the media to be fair and balanced, forget it, they’re not
part of the group that’s hurting.
Presently enforcement of U.S. immigration law is for all practical purpose
non-existent, unless the illegal alien is taken in for a felony. Then in many
cases the illegal alien is released early and deported to save money for state
prisons. Jo Blow is like my wife, by saying that you can't
deport 12 million illegal aliens, and so don't do anything. If I don't
agree with my wife, on something, she will just say, let's do nothing then!
We don't need to deport 12 million illegal aliens in a single day or even a
single year. Using E-Verify against employers that hire illegal
aliens would slow the flow and cause many to return, due to not being able to
find a job. Law enforcement could start enforcing the law causing even more to
leave. We have to start somewhere other than just saying "we can't
deport 12 million illegal aliens," which would be like saying that there is
no sense trying to prevent crime because we can't stop ALL crime.
@JoeBlow"Tell me SPECIFICALLY, which parts of my plan you would
NOT do and why."Probably I would not "round up" 12
million -- not because it would be impossible, as is frequently and INCORRECTLY
alleged, but because doing so would be unnecessary. Why? The doctrine of Attrition (and Deterrence) through Uniform Enforcement and
Meaningful Punishment. Meaningful punishment is NOT a free airline
trip, complete with meal, snacks, and orange juice, whereby an illegal alien may
visit friends and relatives whereupon he can merely re-enter the country
again.In fact, you yourself have provided a fine example of
meaningful punishment: permanent confiscation of property. And once word got
out that all 12 million are in fact subject to the law, that ANY ONE OF THEM, at
any time, and in any place, could be arrested and face such a sanction, and once
word got out that such enforcement were in fact taking place, it wouldn't
be necessary to "round up" 12 million; they largely would self-deport on
their own (AND they wouldn't come back).Absolutely they should
be deported, every last one of them. Remember it only is because they
disrespect this nation that such enforcement is necessary.
I have an even better idea. Open our borders.Every peer-reviewed study of
immigration concludes that immigrants are a net economic plus for our country.
More Hispanic immigrants become entrepreneurs than non-Hispanic immigrants. We
have plenty of room. Let 'em in. Stop demonizing them. Anyone who
doesn't have a criminal record in their home country should be allowed to
come to our country.
You are right. Lets round up 12 million ILLEGALS living in the United States
and drag their keisters back across the border.I suppose that we
can confiscate their "ill-gotten goods also - their property - houses, cars,
land and businesses. Heck, we can grab their stocks and bank accounts also.Maybe we can put it all towards that deficit.Tell me
SPECIFICALLY, which parts of my plan you would NOT do and why
To "JoeBlow" imagine you have a neighbor who robbed a bank 30 years ago.
He used that money for various charities and community development. Does it
make sense to put him in jail now? Why or why not?Why does it
matter what they have done with their ill-gotten goods? Would you allow a
person who molested kids, and was never caught to live next door to you? Would
you allow an unconvicted con artist to remain in your neighborhood?Would you tolerate an illegal immigrant taking $2700/yr from your family?
That is what each illegal immigrant family costs the US. Why tolerate keeping
illegal immigrants here when they take resources away from the poor US citizens?
"Arguably, those who have lived lives of illegality in this country for 30
years ought to receive 30 times the punishment."The 1986 amnesty
eventually came to be recognized -- even by Ronald Reagan himself -- as a
colossal mistake. And why didn't it work? Well,
first of all, it didn't necessarily change the hearts of those who had
shown such contempt for this nation's borders, customs, and laws in the
first place. Not having truly assimilated American values themselves, nor
having truly discarded old ones, many of them taught their American-born
children accordingly. The other problem was that there was no
commitment to earnestly enforce the law after that. Arguably, these
two things lay at the root of the ruin of California today. Which
brings us to the topic of amnesty today. Some ask, "What do we do with the
11 million illegal aliens already here?" In part I would answer that
question with another question: If we were to grant all of them amnesty today
and, due to lack of enforcement, 11 million MORE were to subsequently enter the
country, what should we do then? Grant amnesty again?The answer, as
always, is earnest, uniform enforcement, and meaningful punishment.
As long as the benefits for being in the United States illegally outweigh
staying in Mexico or even poorer countries, illegal immigration will not be
preventable. Since there is no punishment other than being deported what is
there to lose by violating U.S. immigration law? Enforceable E-Verify would be a
big step forward. Utah's E-Verify law is unforced, and therefore only
pretend.Tobias is correct in believing that the Utah media is biased
in favor of illegal aliens. The problem is that the sympathy of the Utah media
actually creates the problem and makes it worse, by pretending that the citizens
of Utah feel the same way. The media lacks logic because they fail to understand
that if you want bad behavior, all that you have to do is reward it. Talk of
"amnesty" only encourages bad behavior.
Arguably, those who have lived lives of illegally in this country for 30 years
ought to receive 30 times the punishment. How about that.You must
have been absolutely LIVID when Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to those millions of
illegals.Were you demonstrating in the streets?
@WestGranger"The undocumented workers aren't the problem.
Most of these people come from situations that are much more desperate than the
average American can comprehend."It is this kind of
rationalization that has enabled illegal immigration on such a massive scale in
this country. The exact same rationalization could be applied to shoplifting
and bank robbery. Allowing someone to steal -- and to cause someone else's
child to go hungry in the process -- is not compassion. It also is immoral and
unfair.@JoeBlowIf uniform enforcement and meaningful
punishment would deter businesses from hiring illegally, then so would uniform
enforcement and meaningful punishment deter persons from being in the country
illegally in the first place. The fact is, both groups are partners in crime.
Both should be held accountable. "Guy came illegally (was
virtually welcomed) 30 years ago. Still illegal but with family and
house."First, unscrupulous groups or individuals may have
welcomed them. But America did not. Second, there is no valid reason why the
passage of time should grant automatic, retroactive legal residency. Arguably,
those who have lived lives of illegally in this country for 30 years ought to
receive 30 times the punishment. How about that.
The author is correct, of course. There are persons in this state who, though
they were taught better in Sunday School class as children, are dishonestly
seeking to deceive their fellow man by subtly but ever so intently implying that
there is no difference between legal and illegal immigration. The Utah Compact
is a shining example of this.They bear false witness against their
neighbor, by falsely insinuating that those opposed to illegal immigration and
its damaging consequences are unchristian, immoral, "extreme," and
racist. They also do pervert the right way of the Lord, by implying
that to show compassion and to love one's neighbor is to endorse and look
the other way at illegality. Jesus said: Repent, and sin no more -- which, in
the case of illegal immigration, can only mean taking one's children,
returning to one's home country, and there living lives of honesty, honor,
and respect for one's fellow man. Anything else is rationalization.The hard truth is that illegal immigration in Utah is a matter of greed,
covetousness, corruption, and disrespect for America on the part of businesses,
churches, radical progressives, various racist and "Reconquista" groups,
and the illegal aliens themselves.
"I put together what I believe was a minor miracle: Unions and non-union
members in the same room, all testifying that cheap labor is destroying hope for
the future of America." Then the writer is shocked at the lack of coverage
in Utah. Janalee, the problem is Utahs' and the Republican party's
"commitment" to cheap labor. Until you have a society that believes and
an economy that supports the concept that labor deserves to paid at a level that
is life supporting all the fences, all the everifys' in the world
won't stop the flow of workers to fill the void. As long as
executives make 500 times what a worker makes, as long as you have people on
this thread who brag about paying $15 an hour with no benefits, as long the
country has a medical system that excludes 40,000,000, you are going to have a
major part of your work force that can live in the shadows and manipulate the
system for survival.
Janalee Tobias understands the illegal immigrant situation as well or better
than most people on the Utah Commission on Immigration and has demonstrated that
in her actions on the commission and her undying involvement with this issue for
several years.Her letter reflects the frustrations felt by many
citizens who almost daily see media stories that appear to be attempting to draw
sympathy for "undocumented" who have come to this country illegally and
then wonder why they draw troubles for themselves and their families.There are very few stories about the citizens and neighborhoods that have been
negatively affected by these intruders that come into our communties
illegally.Commendations to Tobias and others who continually expend
personal time and effort to protect and defend the values of American
"we need to put processes in place to prevent us from returning to this same
exact spot years in the future."Agree Fozz.And I
think that after we deal with the "long-timers" we need strict hiring
laws with penalties, strict Citizen only education, and any illegal needing govt
services (emergency health care) knows that they will be immediately deported.
We HAVE to make it less attractive to be in the US as an illegal than it is to
stay home.I believe that fences would not work.
Fozz Moo,Mexico has a significant economy - about the 14th largest
in the world. But it also has a huge population. The best measure of relative
wealth and income is GDP per capita. On that basis, Mexico is about 85th in the
world. So, despite the size of its economy, it's people are not (on
average) well off at all but are, in fact, relatively poor.Also,
wealth and income are not evenly distributed. So there are many areas more poor
than the average (which again, is not good).
JoeBlow makes a good point about the immigrant who has been in the US illegally
for years. This is a problem we've faced time and time again. We tried to
deal with this once and for all in 1986 during the Reagan administration when we
granted blanket amnesty to all those who were in the country illegally. Why didn't it solve the problem? Because measures were not put in
place then to stem the flow of illegal immigrants into the country. Hiring of
illegal labor was not penalized or discouraged. Government benefits and
entitlements have continued to attract as well. Before we can
discuss legal acclimation of people who have been here for X years, we need to
put processes in place to prevent us from returning to this same exact spot
years in the future.
WestGranger commented: "Most of these people come from situations that are
much more desperate than the average American can comprehend." While it may be true that most Americans would have a difficult time
comprehending the lives of people living in Mexico and Latin America, the facts
still stand that Mexico, in particular, is among the richest nations in the
world. People in Mexico live better than most of the rest of the world. Those
that choose to come to America illegally do so, perhaps, because they want a
better life for themselves and their family. There's nothing wrong with
that and I think most of us applaud that desire because it is significant
component of the American Dream. But they need to do it legally and through a
Here is another story.In many places, it is illegal to leave your
keys in the car. Why? Well of course, it makes it too tempting to steal the
car. One may agree or disagree with those laws, but certainly you can
understand why they exist.When I lived in Texas, I saw a city build
a "day-labor plaza" where workers would congregate and those needing
labor would drive up and pick up the people they needed. There was no doubt in
anyones mind that virtually everyone there looking for work was illegal.Not only was hiring illegals not prosecuted, but it was encouraged.
Kind of like leaving your keys in the car.Illegals come here for
jobs. Until we get serious about finding and penalizing business who hire
illegals, the problem will NOT GO AWAY.SecondlyPeople
constantly say - Illegal is Illegal.I get it. But lets look at
reality.Scenario 1 Guy gets caught last week crossing the
border illegally to pick lettuce. Send him back. No issues.Scenario 2Guy came illegally(was virtually welcomed) 30 years ago.
Still illegal but with family and house.You want to deport him?
That makes sense?Janalee? Thoughts?
The problem is our broken immigration system and our failure to secure the
border. Our system allows us to exploit these undocumented workers. The
irresponsibility of our politicians has hurt everyone. The undocumented workers
aren't the problem. Most of these people come from situations that are much
more desperate than the average American can comprehend. The situation is now so
out of hand that we need to bring them out from the shadows. It would be
beneficial to our national security and crime rates. Those with criminal records
could be easier weeded out. We would be able to better control the influx of
workers. If a man or woman is no longer an "illegal" person, they will
be much less likely to accept extremely low wages.