Published: Wednesday, Dec. 12 2012 12:00 a.m. MST
I'll take this rant seriously when a Republican proposes a budget that
spends only 15% of GDP, which is what taxes currently bring in. Till then,
it's just blowing smoke.
Hate to break it to you Kim, but you have fallen into the rut of thinking that
the GOP is not guilty of overspending. Granted, so are the Dems.But, the GOP's thirst for unfunded Wars and lower taxes play a huge part
of the problem.According to the very conservative Cato Institute
(started by Charles Koch)"President Bush has presided over the
largest overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon B.
Johnson. Even after excluding spending on defense and homeland securityTotal government spending grew by 33 percent during Bushs first term."And all this with a GOP controlled house and senate.I hate
to break it to you, but we are our problems are not caused by the GOP
compromising with the big spending Dems.They are quite capable of
overspending (including people like Paul Ryan) as the best of the Dems.History has shown that.
Oh, good grief, Kim. You apparently don't want to live in a democratic
republic. You want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship where a Christian
social & fiscal conservative controls everything and you never have to deal
with opposing viewpoints. No wonder there has been talk of secession from your
side. If there was a nice blank spot on the map you could all run off to and
form your own walled-off insular nation of laissez-faire theocrats, I'd say
go for it. But there isn't, so you're stuck living in a nation with
people of different opinions. Get used to it.The rest of your letter
includes nanny state blather, regurgitations on liberal media boogeymen, and
starry-eyed mythology about our nation's origins. Those are tired old
talking points typical of a voter who feels disenfranchised after losing an
election. Nothing substantive or remotely relevant there.
If you compromise your principles too much, you lose your soul, your morality,
your purpose! That's how liberals become liberals-no principles. Everything
is ok! There is no right or wrong and everything is relative! Only your FEELINGS
matter. Sound familiar?
I feel sorry for those who believe this nonsense.Hey Kim....your guy Bush
is not a democrat, and he nearly sank us all.The next time the GOP
reaches across the aisle to work with the Dems on ANYTHING will be the first.
As Emajor said mountainman..you apparently don't want to live in a
democratic republic..and I would add reality. Compromise happens not because
you lose your principles but because you've lost your power/influence.
Compromise simply means you get what you can when you can. You
think you're going to lose your soul if you comprimise with a
liberal...no..what you're going to lose is elections and any further
opportunity to influence political outcomes. Whine all you want but this
country (out of neccessity) is becoming both socially and politically center
left. Center left means libertarian on social issues, more keynesian than
austrian on economic issues, and Hamiltonian in their view of the role of
government is society.
@ pragmatistferlife. All I am saying is there are things all honorable people
will not negotiate; their values, their freedom, their principles and their
sacred honor. These things we will not surrender. If we do, what have we become?
To some these things are just "words". To others, they are the standards
by which we conduct our lives.Merry Christmas to you and yours!
Mountanman,Your point about principles is absolutely true. But this
is not about whether we are loyal to our families, the gospel, or even our
nation.Our current situation is about political decisions. There is
nothing intrinsically moral or immoral about this level of taxation or that
level of spending. High spending in times of war may be quite moral but less so
in times of peace. When facing large debts, cutting spending that we would
normally not want to cut and raising taxes to levels we do not like, may also be
quite moral.My point is simply that there is no particular rate of
taxation or spending that is moral or immoral. The morality comes into play
when considering what we can afford and how these decisions affect future
generations.The reason compromise is so important is because if we
do not have some, NOTHING will get done. You need votes to move legislation.
Period. And, if we do nothing, the nation will continue on an unsustainable
course. In my book, that would be immoral.For our politicians on
both sides, I think much of this is more about power and influence than morality
"righteous principles...fiscal conservatism and the free enterprise
system"I just love it when people lump these terms together as
if conservatism and capitalism were somehow ordained of God. The fact is that
there are many people living in a variety of monetary and government systems
throughout the world who are living righteous lives. In fact the dominant
religion of Utah promoted the United Order at one time, where each received
according to his needs, but it was abandoned because people were not
"righteous" enough to live it.Until one side can prove the
that their platform is te absolute perfect one for everyone to live by,
compromise is the only way for us to progress. Dictatorship has never been a
re: Mountanman 7:28 a.m. Dec. 12Blindly following an absolute,
carved in stone, w/ no deviation plan. Gee! Where have we heard that before and
how did it work out?
Hank. Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who has done that?
But there are absolutes in the world, its called truth; things as they really
are, as they always have been and as they always will be.
Mike Lofgren, was a Republican aide and Congresssional staffer for nearly 30
yrs, the last 16, as an analyst on the House and Senate Budget Committees. Upon
retiring he wrote a scathing critque of his own party, stating:"I could see the Republican Party would use the debt limit vote, an
otherwise routine legislative procedure, used 87 times since World War II, to
concoct an entirely artificial fiscal crisis, to get what they wanted, by
literally holding the US and global economies hostages.... the
Republican Party is becoming less and less like a traditional political party in
a representative democracy and becoming more like an apocalyptic cult, or one of
the intensely ideological authoritarian parties of 20th century Europe.Far from being a rarity, virtually every bill, every nominee for Senate
confirmation and every routine procedural motion is now subject to a Republican
filibuster. ..It is no wonder that Washington is gridlocked: legislating has now
become war minus the shooting, something one could have observed 80 years ago in
the Reichstag of the Weimar Republic. As Hannah Arendt observed, a disciplined
minority of totalitarians can use the instruments of democratic government to
undermine democracy itself."
Yes, mountainman, there is a thing called truth.But it is very, very
frequently tossed aside by you and other posters here. Here is one example from
a few days ago in which one of our frequent posters slips and allows the truth
to come out""procuradorfiscalTooele, UT 4:38
p.m. Dec. 9, 2012Re: "Procura: With views like yours . . . ."My views are completely irrelevant to facts."That tells it
all. So I submit respectfully the question, if someone feels facts are
irrelevant, is that truth?
@Mountanman -- And so I infer that you think that a top tax rate of 35% is one
of those absolutes, the truth, something that can never be compromised on. This
is what we're talking about compromising on. Not murder.
MountanmanHayden, ID@ pragmatistferlife. All I am saying is there
are things all honorable people will not negotiate; their values, their freedom,
their principles and their sacred honor. ============ Mountaman, Get off you moral High-Horse.You whine higher
taxes on the upper 1% to help pay for Bush's 2 un-funded wars, about
yet supported the same goon who actully DID strip away FREEDOM - and introduced
America to Ghestapo citizen spying, and ven maockingly sugar coated calling it
the ficticous "Patriot Act"...and you bought it hook, line
and sinker.Your sense of honor means nothing, becuase you
don't even know what Freedom means.Freedom to you is right near
and dear to your keester - it's only your wallet.
I would like to know what exactly conservatives compromised on. Remember now, we
were already trillions in debt when Obama took office. So I don't want to
hear anything about the ACA. Did Democrats want Medicare part D?Did Democrats push for these tax cuts?Did Democrats desire 2 unfunded
wars?Were Democrats in the White House when TARP was passed?Were
Democrats in control of Congress and the White House when Clinton's surplus
was quickly turned into trillions in debt?Were Democrats in control when
stimulus package after stimulus package was passed from 2000-2008?Finally, who was the last GOP President who balanced the budget? Any ideas
@One old man. I guess you will have to decide what truth means to you. @Wonder. If I knew a 35% tax rate on a minority of citizens would be the
"true" solution to our economic problems, I would be all for it. The
truth is, there is no amount of taxation that can sustain our government's
spending as it is. The truth is our government spends too much money, money we
don't have; hence our $16.2 trillion and growing by over a $1.5 billion
everyday debt. The truth is unless we control our spending, our economy can not,
will not survive.
Those who believe in law and who have integrity insist that Congress limit
itself to do only what we, the people, have authorized it to do. Those who do
not believe in law insist that Congress can do anything at any time and that one
segment of the population, the fictional "rich guy" pays for
everything.Principles guide everything that we do. If we are
principled, we NEVER do anything at the expense of someone else nor do we pass
our responsibilities onto others. If we have no principles, we don't care
how much someone else is hurt, as long as we get what we want.We
have the right to expect the Federal Government to limit itself to only do those
things that we have authorized it to do. If we have principles, we will loudly
object any time the Federal Government exceeds those limits.Compromise is not possible when some people willingly reject the Constitution
and then demand that we go along with them. No person with principles will
participate in illegal activity. Any program not authorized by the Constitution
is illegal on the Federal level. No compromise is possible.
I understood that "raising taxes" is against Conservative Republican
values. If they do nothing, taxes WILL go up. If conservatives compromise, at
least they can negotiate some restraint in the increase. What an extremely odd
letter "Conservatives should do nothing, and let taxes rise a lot".
What exactly have Republicans compromised on?
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