Is it class warfare when the average CEO takes (please note I didn't say
makes) 500 times what their workers make? Or is it class warfare when the
workers take note of this and then vote someone like Obama into office?
re: airnaut 2:28 p.m. Dec. 8"just because NAZI stood for
National Socialist doesn't make it Socialist, anymore then Federal
Express is a Federal operation or Burger King is a monarch of
hamburgers."I don't care who you are. That right there is
funny!"GW Bush and most uber-far-right-wingers fit more into the
NAZI party Platform which was far-right-wint - than any, Socialist."You mean Dubya wasn't a compassionate conservative!?
Airnaut:"just because NAZI stood for National Socialist
doesn't make it Socialist, anymore then Federal Express is a Federal
operation or Burger King is a monarch of hamburgers."You are
correct sir. I only used National Socialism because that is a name that most
people would recognize. Names can reveal, conceal or distort what they
identify.LDS Liberal @ 11:04 a.m. Point # 3From the
book, The Black Book of Communism. Printed by Harvard University Press, 1999,
Page 487. Subject is the “Great Leap Forward”The Greatest Famine in History (1959-1961)“For many years
one myth was common in the West: that although China was far from being a model
democracy, at least Mao had managed to give a bowl of rice to every Chinese.
Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth.” ...”Mao and
the system that he created were directly responsible for what was, and, one
hopes, will forever remain the most murderous famine of all times, anywhere in
the world."See page 464. "Estimates range from 20 million
to 43 million dead...". "All victims of a famine caused by the
misguided project of a single man, Mao Zedong..."
William GronbergPayson, UTRedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTo "LDS Liberal" once again, Hitler was a SOCIALIST. ============I'm sorry you are both wrong.Hitler was a
Fascist, not Socialist - even if you use all caps.just because NAZI
stood for National Socialist doesn't make it Socialist, anymore then
Federal Express is a Federal operation or Burger King is a monarch of
hamburgers.It was a misnomer used by the Nazis to convince the the
working class unions in Germany [who were in favor of Communism] to go side with
them.I've read the platform, and read the 14 points of
Fascism.GW Bush and most uber-far-right-wingers fit more into the
NAZI party Platform which was far-right-wint - than any, Socialist.
@procuradorfiscal -- Calling those in America who are the richest "the
richest Americans" is perjorative? Only if you're trying to
perjoratively describe the person who is making the (by definition) true
@ Eric Samuelsen 10:11 a.m. Dec. 7, 2012"Rhetorical excess
combined with historical ignorance; a nasty combination."Such a
pithy, subtle, indirect way to condemn AM talk radio & Fixed noise, I love
it.re: Mike Richards 1:43 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012"Clean
your own house before telling Republicans to clean theirs."Really, Mike? Really? 90% of your posts are myopically judgemental.re: RedShirt 9:58 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012"Hitler was a SOCIALIST.
Read the Nazi party platform."Hitler was a fascist (a strain of
socialism); There is a checklist in Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg (in the
chapter Woodrow Wilson) and it would include Hitler IMO.
Redshirt - You and I both know that Hitler was not a socialist, no matter how
many times you put it in all caps. We had this discussion on a different string
a long time ago; do you need a refresher course? And every WH is
full of new pictures of the President. While working for a Senator, I was
invited to the WH under Bush43. I went through both wings and there were
pictures all over of Bush, including activities he had done that week. That
sort of jab from you is so petty to begin with and then fraught with inaccuracy
it truly demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of our political system. Finally, you are mixing a very simple thing up: ideology with title.
Conservative/liberal are not synonymous with Republican/Democrat. If you were
unable to pick up that distinction, I hold little hope for any semblance of
progress from you. procurdofiscal - Letting temporary tax cuts
expire is not a tax hike; it is returning to normalcy. If these simple truths
are lost on you, how do you believe you can understand the complex issues
surrounding the American tax system? Re: "real people" - are
there "fake people"?
Re: "The improper use of the term "class warfare" is an insult to
the millions of victims of genuine class warfare."The real
insult is to the intelligence of real people, by a leftist elite that has
assumed, and jealously guards, some "authority" to define and frame all
political discussion in such a way as to determine its outcome.Anyone who suggests the President's insistence on a completely
ineffectual, but highly symbolic tax hike, singling out those he demonizes by a
perjorative, politically charged term -- "the richest Americans" -- is
anything other than a class-warfare tactic is selling something.Leftist, class-warfare dogma.
To "LDS Liberal" once again, Hitler was a SOCIALIST. Read the Nazi
party platform.Communists were killed because they were competition,
not because he disagreed with their politics.Look at Obama, have you
noticed that everything is all about him? Even WH staff have mentioned that
Obama put his picture everywhere. How about his gift to the Queen of England,
copies of his speeches.American Businesses like doing business in
China because China welcomes them. Obama has made it clear that he is against
business, and the businessmen have reported such to the media.If
today's conservatives are equal to yesterday's liberals, that means
that yesterday's liberals are today's socialists/communists.Also, if you read the Constitution, Blacks are not mentioned, only slaves.
There were white slaves too.
It's not class warfare when money is redistributed to the 2%.It's class warfare when the money is redistributed to the 98%.
Class ________?? I really do not know what word would be the best choice to
substitute for “warfare”. Friction, antagonism, competition, clash,
disagreement, conflict, contention. Yes there is a perceived problem between
classes, but please, not warfare. Too many millions have already died.President Obama has been subjected too years of hateful speech. At times he
has been accused of having the literal goal of destroying the United States.
Not that a policy or action will cause unintended negative results, but he
desires and actively works for the destruction of the Republic. There are too
many toxic seeds being sown. “We need to address the hateful
de-humanizing rhetoric before it escalates to actual warfare.”LDS Liberal: Mitt Romney did a fantastic job of making himself a fool at Marc
Ledar's home. He made silly remarks about the now famous 47 %, but never
once used the phrase, class warfare.Yes, totalitarian National
Socialism killed far more communists than capitalists. They and totalitarian
Soviet Communism were allies for several years. Ultimately they were fierce
competitors for the same real estate. Totalitarian National
Socialism is Anti-Marxist and very much Leninist.Totalitarian Soviet
Communism is Marxist/Leninist.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahLDS Liberal,Would this be
like Democrats who refused to recognize "slaves" as real people?Clean your own house before telling Republicans to clean theirs._1:43 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012==============If you are
referring to Democrats ala 1862 then Yes - because they were the CONSERVATIVES
in those days.Republicans - (The party of Lincoln) were the
Progressives, the uber-Liberals.and YES - That evil
Progressive Liberal Republican, Abraham Licoln - who signed the that evil
Liberal Emancipation Proclamation -- with the stoke of a pen and without
Congressional approval - stripped away the PROPERTY of Slave owners, and set
them Free -- imagine that! Isn't that your ultimate evil Liberal
sin!Taking away one's "property"?Oh and one other
thing - Blacks became ONE person -- and the "Massa" didn't get to
vote FOR them anymore.And you come on here and whine daily about a
silly 1 or 2% tax increases for Obamacare or a 4% increase of taxes on those
making $1 Million a year?!Incredible I say!
LDS Liberal,Would this be like Democrats who refused to recognize
"slaves" as real people?Clean your own house before telling
Republicans to clean theirs._
William GronbergPayson, UT“When seeds are sown, are we
too foolish to know what kind of crop we will harvest?” Amen Mr.
Richards.[Would this be like how certain Republicans looked down
upon Blacks, Hispanics, Women, the Young, the Poor -- the 47%...]"There were years of hateful speech causing the de-humanizing of certain
classes. Once they were systematically dehumanized, killing them was no longer
murder, it became, in many minds, the solution." Amen "24-7"[Would this be like how certain Republicans looked down upon Blacks,
Hispanics, Women, the Young, the Poor -- the 47%...]You brought up
the ClassWar-fare issue again, for the 2nd time this week, William Gronberg, but you still don't understand it at all.Even when it's put
right in front of you.
“When seeds are sown, are we too foolish to know what kind of crop we will
harvest?” Amen Mr. Richards."There were years of hateful
speech causing the de-humanizing of certain classes. Once they were
systematically dehumanized, killing them was no longer murder, it became, in
many minds, the solution." Amen "24-7"Individual
persons can also be subjected too years of hateful speech. The President of the
United States has been subjected too years of hateful speech. At times he has
been accused of having the literal goal of destroying the United States in this
very readers' forum. Not that this or that policy or action will cause
unintended negative results, but he desires the destruction of the Republic.
There are too many toxic seeds being sown.
All you axes to grind people, the issue is the word choice for the discussion,
not which class is the better class.
Christian 24-7 said, "So are there people today who see the rich as
deserving of elimination?"Absolutely not. As has been pointed
out many times by both sides of the issue, "the rich" include many of
the people who feed the engine that runs this country. Many people have become
wealthy due only to their hard work and ingenuity. Even those who may have
inherited their wealth include those who are generous and benevolent and without
whose contributions - of both money and influence - many of the things that
benefit us all would not be possible.But in the end, fairness must
prevail. No this does not mean a total redistribution of wealth so that every
one receives an equal share, but it means changing our tax code so that someone
with hundreds of millions in wealth, who lives off capital gains income does not
pay 14% in total taxes (because they don't pay payroll tax or social
security tax or medicare tax) while someone with a meager income pays at least
15% (in those same taxes mentioned above) even though they don't pay
"income taxes". There are countless ways to make things more fair.
Let's at least try them.
A couple more points the letter writer got WRONG.1. Adolph Hitler
killed more Communists than Capitalists in WWII, by a 3 to 1 ratio. He also
opened the gas-chambers to the Liberals, Acedamia, Non-Christians, Immigrants,
Homosexuals, Abortionists, the Homeless, the Poor, the terminally and mentally
ill. He was not a Socialist, but in fact a Fascist - i.e., uber-far-right-wing
Conservative.2. Stalin was [like many dictators] a self absorbed
paranoid schezophrenic. Economic models have nothing to do with that.3. China experience 2-5 million deaths under Communist leader Chairman Mao due
largely in part to the Chinese civil war with Nationalist leader Chiang
Kai-Shek. What you are doing is the same things as blaming Pres. Abraham Lincoln
for all the total America casualties from both sides durng the U.S. Civil
War.4. Filthy rich American Businessmen and their Corporations
absolutely LOVE doing business with Chairman Mao's Communist Country. But
that seems OK and hunky-dorrey and fully encouraged with Republicans.The Communist Chinese are winning, funded by American Businesses, and America
is now indebt to our eye-balls to them for it. There's your class
Dictionaries are wonderful tools to get a beginning of understanding and
knowledge. Look up ford and dodge. Doesn't say anything about
automobiles, just rivers and evasive movements. Ford and Dodge not even
mentioned.Yes words and phrases change their meaning over time. My
problem with “class warfare”, in 2012 context, is the word
“warfare”. Normally warfare involves organized and large scale
violence. It is just too strong a word in my opinion for the context most
people use it in. Warren Buffett is one of the finest citizens of the Republic.
The phrase in question will continue to be used endlessly in spite of my letter
I respect Mr. Gronberg's experience and feelings on this matter. Warfare is
a harsh word. But it is important to remember that the killing didn't start
on day one in those dictatorships. There were years of hateful speech causing
the de-humanizing of certain classes. Once they were systematically dehumanized,
killing them was no longer murder, it became, in many minds, the solution. So are there people today who see the rich as deserving of elimination?
I read and hear this more and more frequently, so yes. Are there those who see
the poor as disposable? Yes again.We need to address the hateful
de-humanizing rhetoric before it escalates to actual warfare.
"There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich
class, that's making war, and we're winning." ~ Warren Buffett.
He pointed out that, were it a war, it was pretty unfair since his
side, the ultra rich, has the “nuclear bomb.”============= Don't forget - Mitt Romney mentioned
classwar-fare with his now famous 47% comment, and then right after he
lost, he placed all the blame on Obama for promising "Free stuff".Warren Buffett is right.Conservatives are once again, wrong.
Mountainman said, "Where does the author think his examples all began? It is
the culmination of what is happening right now in America."On
this one I have to agree with you. Not unlike the decadent lifestyles of the
Czar and his close associates, the wealthy have continued to get more and more
wealth since the 1980's and the middle class and lower class have actually
lost ground economically and politically. This country was built on the values
of hard work and fairness but the last thirty years have been anything but fair
to the majority of Americans who do most of the hard work. And unless this
issue is addressed soon, the spirit of contention between the upper, wealthy
class and everyone else who sees their savings slipping way, who see their
ability to create change in our communities at the expense of the ruling class,
will most likely result in an uprising similar to what happened in the early
20th Century.American values are not found in bank accounts or stock
portfolios on Wall Street, they are found in the hearts and minds of those who
give their best effort everyday to make life better for all Americans.
Excellent letter. And in the same vein, people love to compare their political
opponents to Hitler, or Stalin or someone. Rhetorical excess combined with
historical ignorance; a nasty combination.
From Dictionary.com: Class struggle:1. Also called class conflict.
conflict between different classes in a community resulting from different
social or economic positions and reflecting opposed interests.2.
Also called class war, class warfare. (in Marxist thought) the struggle for
political and economic power carried on between capitalists and workers. Pointless letter stretching to make a point.
From the Free Dictionary: "Class warfare: conflict between social or
economic classes (especially between the capitalist and proletariat
classes)."Doesn't say anything about what the letter writer
claims is class warfare. Sounds like we're using the term properly in
America today and not offending anyone. And yes, Warren Buffett is right.
"To see class warfare at work you need only examine one statistic."I really like that idea. Can I pick the one statistic we look at?
@Mountanman"“if you’ve got a business, you didn’t
build that.”If you bothered to read/hear his entire paragraph
or two around that you'd know he was clearly saying that businesses
didn't build the roads they use to transport their goods, that it's a
benefit they use that helps them succeed. But no... context would mess with the
talking point you want to make now would it? But I see later you still want to
press this... fine... how about this quote? Is it Marxist? After all he's
talking about roads too."There are a lot of people in government
who help us and allow us to have an economy that works and allow entrepreneurs
and business leaders of various kinds to start businesses and create jobs. We
all recognize that. That's an important thing.... I know that you recognize
that a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the banks, the investors.
There's no question your mom and dad. Your school teachers. The people that
provide roads, the fire, and the police. A lot of people help." - Mitt
Please everyone, just read "Who Stole the American Dream," by Hedrick
Smith.If you do, you will have a much better understanding of how we
got into this mess.And it is not simply just a black-and-white,
Democrat, Republican mess. It involves much, much more than that.It's hard -- if not impossible -- for anyone to solve a problem unless
they understand what caused the problem.But far too many of us are
willing to accept propaganda instead of good information. When we do that, we
simply add to the problem.
The presidential election was, in part, a war against the wealthy, successful
businesses, and "old white guys." Look at the incredible bigotry
revealed in the demographic vote statistics. The president continues class
warfare by pandering to the polls, championing increasing taxes on "the
wealthy," which does nearly nothing to address the Federal deficit;
it's pure pandering.
Reagan and his Reaganomics started the class war. In the past 30 years wealth
distribution has been increasingly concentrated among the rich and middle class
wages have stagnated. Then when the middle class fights back the elites say
they're starting a class war.
To see class warfare at work you need only examine one statistic. The share of
the national income going to working people vs. to corporate profits and the
very rich. For several decades after WWII about 2/3 of the national income went
to workers. Starting in 1980 that started to decline, it flattened out in the
90's and then started a steep decline in 2000. Now only 52% of the national
income goes to work, the remainder goes to corporate profits and the very rich.
The share that has been shifted away from workers is equivalent to
the total amount of taxes collected by the federal government. That's a
massive amount of money that has been taken away from workers and gone into the
pockets of the hyper-rich.That's class warfare. AS Warren
Buffet said "we've had class warfare in this country for the last
thirty years, my class won".
Joe, I'll bet I can tell you exactly where that nonsense is coming from.
"Conservative" posters here are simply regurgitating the garbage they
hear on the radio from propagandists like Rush and Glen and Sean and . . . and .
. . and . . .In the meantime, calling what Stalin and Mao and Adolf
did "class warfare" is also nonsense. It was political war, religious
war, and war against the educated people who were capable to questioning what
they were doing.Not much different, really, than the war being waged
in America today by our corporations and certain political groups like ALEC and
the GOP. They just have become smart enough to realize that you don't have
to kill people to advance your causes. Just numb their brains with a constant
stream of scare tactics and right wing propaganda and warnings of imaginary
conspiracies.We frequently see the results of that mind numbing in
posts right here.
my typo..should be "from each according to their ability..sorry
We have a bigger problem incorrectly using the word "socialism".
But Joe..you are missing the point! Most of us had great teachers, all of us
drive on highways but not everyone has built a business that hires people and
pay nearly 80% of all the federal income taxes paid.Obama's comment
sounds like it came right from Karl Marx "to each according to their ability
and to each according to their needs". Obama has more in common with Fidel
Castro and Hugo Chavez than the leader of the free world. Add to that the fact
that more taxes on the "rich" will only run the government for less than
10 days. Please explain how you would solve the real problem of run away
government spending for the other 355 days! That's the real issue here,
Ah, nice try. Again the GOP taking things out of context to mislead. Here is
the full context."If you were successful, somebody along the
line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life.
Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that
allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve
got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that
happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research
created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the
Internet."Now, to the point, you call THAT class warfare? I
find that odd.Let Ronald Reagan help you out.
“Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus
driver or less?” “More!” the audience shouted.“We want to see that everyone pays their fair share and no one
gets a free ride,” Reagan said, and that “no one is manipulating the
system to their advantage because they’re rich and powerful.”
Joe,Spend an hour reading Obama's speeches. Why not start with
his 2002 MLK speech? Instead of excusing his words, why not see what he is
really saying. Why not think about what Michelle Obama meant when she said,
"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my
country." Kennedy uttered the famous, "Ask not" but
Obama is telling us to "demand" from government and that the "rich
guy" will pay.Both are Democrats. One had a vision of America
and of Americans that inspired greatness in all of us. The other preyed on
pettiness, on personal laziness, on envy, on coveting.History will
not be kind to Barack Obama. History will show that the "fiscal cliff"
was not the main problem. The main problem was Obama enticing people to jump
into his arms so that he could destroy private wealth, business, and incentive
in America. He's spent his whole life surrounding himself with radicals
whose goal has been to destroy America. Look at his closest friends and
associates. Look at Bill Ayers who bombed the Pentagon. Look at all of them
and see the commonality of their thoughts.
@ Joe Blow. "“if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build
that.” Class warfare at its finest!
Mike Richards - You obviously have little knowledge of what seeds have been sown
by previous presidents. Try starting with the poignant speech by FDR in Madison
Square Garden in 1936. Quick history: FDR was a Democrat that
succeeded a woefully inept Republican after that Republican, and a
Republican-controlled HoR and Senate, steered our Nation into the Great
Depression. When the Country realized the absolute disparity that existed among
the elites and the middle-class, they figured out that it was the
Republican-controlled federal government that was responsible for facilitating
such inequality. So, the American people put their trust in Democrats, in both
the White House and the Capitol. And we progressed. Aside from
Hoover, do you know the only other time in the last 100 years in which
Republicans controlled the White House and both Houses? 2000-2006. And what
did we get? The Great Recession. You see, history repeats itself. Ever heard
"Bush43's jobs record is the worst since Hoover"? And just as the
American people turned to the fixers of the economy then (Democrats) we are
turning to the fixers of our economy now. Also, read "A
Proclamation on the Economy" please.
Can either of you provide examples (specific quotes would be appreciated) of
Obama's class warfare "seeds"I am just curious as to
what that means to you.
"Genuine class warfare took place under the totalitarian dictatorships of
Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Mao Zedong. The leaders of the class with power
murdered millions of human beings."Where does the author think
his examples all began? It is the culmination of what is happening right now in
America. Dictators come to power and are accepted by the majority who have
invented a common enemy. In our case, its the "rich" anyone who has
succeeded, unless of course its those rich people on the left. Its a proven,
powerful political tool and the left is still using it with great effect.
When seeds are sown, are we too foolish to know what kind of crop we will
harvest?Obama has been sowing "class warfare seeds" since he
has had a political voice. Why? What is his "end game"? No other
President in American history has ever sown such seeds. No other President has
had the goal to divide this nation.