D&C 7:6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in
obtaining heavenly things;
hahahahah said: Here are the facts, that this letter tries to ignore. NOBODY
voted for Obama, who REALLY wants and expects freedom from government and its
tyranny. Once again typing fact doesn't make it anymore factual
than Rush telling you his opinion is a fact. They're learning from
radio, but not to reason just parrot.How much name calling can be in
a comment? Because hahaha sure gets a lot thru the censors.
Isn't it reassuring to know that not only the SUPER Majority of America
(67%) but not even the Majority of Republicans (53%) now believe that the
Bush tax breaks on the 1-2% should be allowed to expire?Who's
out of whack here?Who's in the extreme here?Who's not
getting the picture here?Ya - the same old same olds...who come on
here trying to convince us that ONLY they can be right, and therefore eveyone
else MUST be wrong.Thank God in Heaven for our Democracy.
Re:JThompsonTheoretically, we all pay the same tax rate on the same
amount of income. Even if the tax cuts expire for only upper levels of income,
the wealthy will still get the same tax rate on lower levels of income.
Apparently Republicans think continuing to characterize half of the
American population as "takers" is a good strategy moving forward. But
they are wrong. They insult the majority of us who've worked hard and
sacrificed our whole lives. When lower income, working Americans take advantage
of tax laws put into place by Republicans and Democrats which zeros out their
income tax suddenly they become takers in Republican's eyes. When other
people accumulate massive wealth in part due to special tax treatments suddenly
they are worthy of special protection and adulation. But the majority of
Americans have awakened to the fact that increasing income inequality, more
wealth concentration at the top, isn't resulting in more jobs for Americans
or a stronger economy. Republicans can choose to ignore the results of the
election, and refuse to compromise with the electoral and popular vote winner.
Polls indicate Republicans will bear the brunt of failure.
KJB,If you're willing to pay the same tax tate as you want
someobe else to pay, then there is no argument; however, if you think that you
are somehow exempt from paying that rate, then perhaps you should explain why
tou think that you're "too good" to pay the tax tate rhat you
expect a fellow citizen to pay.
Mike Richards:I know that reality doesn't live up to your Ayn
Rand fantasies, but between sales taxes, state taxes, local taxes, Medicare,
Social Security, and property taxes, just about everybody in America already
*does* pay for government programs. Heck, even unemployment benefits are
taxed.And the Democrats don't want your mythical "rich
guy" to shoulder the entire burden, but he does need to pair his fair share.
He hasn't for years, and the country has suffered because of that.
Mountainman, although your comment at 12:04 claims you are telling the truth,
there is one thing you are forgetting.TRUTH is not what one person
perceives it be, it is what is really true. What you are saying is not true.PLEASE try doing a little research. If you find anything to support
your claims here, please provide reliable some documentation so the rest of us
may see what you claim to be seeing.
Good, honest and realistic comments. That is refreshing since I hear (and see
on here) many unrealistic ones. President Obama won the election and those of
us who voted for him are very glad. Some on here still appear to think that all
of the people that voted for him are people that just like to have handouts.
Well, that's just not true! You need to be aware that you live in an area
that has the largest majority of people in the country that will vote (or not
vote) for someone based on religion (and possibly a person's race). More
and more people in this country (like me) vote for someone based on their ideas
and hard work and this meant for me, the middle class. President Obama (by the
way, a valid US citizen....he was born in Hawaii in 1961 and my family happened
to know him) And he produced his birth certificate (Wow, what a thing for him
to ask him to do to appease the Republican hysteria) It's time to face the
real world people. Many people are not like you and never will be (your race,
religion or Republican Party)
The interesting tone of this letter is the tired old mantra of "cant we all
just get along". Just makes you all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?
Gag! There are a scant few democrats out there with at least half a
mind, who could be leaders in crossing the aisle and finding common ground, but
they will never do this, because they are to afraid their party. And yes, you
can somewhat say the same thing about republicans, but that would be a weak
argument. Here are the facts, that this letter tries to ignore. NOBODY
voted for Obama, who REALLY wants and expects freedom from government and its
tyranny. They absolutely want and expect a payoff from the Anointed One and his
party. From the corp. exec., to the teacher, to the construction worker, to the
fireman, you name it. Whether or not their job is needed or accomplishes a
public good, or even if we already have to many of them doing the job, they
support BHO because they want the payoff of him maintaining that welfare for
them. And then you have the public assistance cases who really do have their
hand out. Obama voters!
LDS Liberal, Do you speak for all corporations?I
didn't think so.If you take the time to study the problems
instead of giving "answers" to your preconceived "problems", you
would see that Obama has turned America into a "slave nation" where tbe
"rich guy" pays for his programs and tbe "poor guy" gets
"redistributed" income. Nothing in that "program" follows any
Constitutional mandate, but too many only care about what they "get",
not what they should be paying.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahMidvaliean, 1:58 p.m.
Dec. 5, 2012============== Mike - I know you
are a small business owner.I know you believe the small businesses are the
biggest job creators, and fastest and brightest innovators, ect.I know you
are concerned about the additional costs smaller businesses face with
"Obamacare".BUTDid you ever stop to think of who
benefits from have these "little people" suffer?Did it EVER
occur to you that big Corporations are not going to be hurt by Obamacare one
bit, but in fact, most will see their Healthcare burder lightened a since
their employee's Insurance will no longer be covering healthcare losses?Did it ever occur to you that Big Corporations will see a reduction in
Healthcare costs?Did it ever occur to you that Big Corporations LOVE
to see their "better", "smaller", "faster" and more
"innovative" competition brushed away to the sidelines of history?Did it ever occur to you that Big Corporations wanted Obamacare to help
get rid of small businesses -- Kind of like WallStreet Banks wiped
out 70% of the smaller local banks throughout America?Nah - I
didn't think you did...
Midvaliean, Thank you for answering my question. I had hoped that
your reponse would have been "we're all in this together, so we need to
work together to pay for those programs", but your response was, "let
someone else work and let someone else sweat and let someone else pay because I
am too important to pay my way as a citizen of the United States".Obama has told us that "slavery" is alive in America and that the
"rich guy"to has become the slave. He believes and you believe that
some "rich guy" should pay for your "privileges".We
have no class system in America, no matter what Obama says.
If I was asked who would pay for all govermenet programs, my answer would be:
All the Mike Richards' of the world. Gainfully employed entrepreneurs who
pay their employees good money with good benefits.
Let's ask a very simple question. Who should pay for all government
programs?If you think that somebody else should pay, then you
believe in a two class system, i.e., the givers and the takers. You have
already defined yourzelf as a taker. You have already told is that the
"2nd" class citizens are the givers. You have already told us that you
are "special" and that you don't have to pay the taxes that pay for
your favorite programs.Unless we are equal in the responsibility to
pay for government programs, we would have to be a society where
"slaves" do the work and pay the taxes while the "elite" sit
back and let the "rich guy" pay for everything.
@ Screwdriver. I said Obama has borrowed more money than all other presidents
combined. The fact that escapes you is that most presidents didn't borrow
any money. GWB borrowed money but it took him 8 years to increase the debt about
$5 trillion. The national debt has gone up by about $6.2 trillion in the last 4
years. So who is spreading lies? Not me!
Mountainman likes to spread miss truths. Or lie, as it were.The
national debt was 10 trillion when Obama took office. The debt would have to be
greater than 20 trillion for him to have quote "borrowed more money than all
the other presidents combined."It's simple math right in
front of your face. Don't keep saying it.
Tulip - "The problem is "common ground" is usually a one sided
affair. Seriously, when was the last time the "left" ever came our
way!"To name just a few:The Bush Tax CutsWelfare reform in the 1990sSupport for the war in Iraq (of course based
on bogus information from the Adminstration)The Patriot ActI
personally didn't agree with some of their actions but it be wrong to claim
that the Democrats didn't support the wishes of the Republican
president.When was the last time the Republicans, especially those
bound by their committment to Groiver Norquist and the Tea Party, came "our
way."?Doesn't it seem illogical for you to claim that
"common ground" ius aone-sided affair. How can that be common ground.
I believe that most Americans want almost the same final results in our lives -
for ourselves and our children - but it is just the method of getting there that
is different. So let's find common ground on that pathway. That's
Nice letter. It's great to see some nonidealogical, rational thinking from
the Right side of the great divide.
Republicans have found common ground...Rewarding the governor and
his cabinet a 37 percent pay increase!How about that Utah?
To answer Tulip's question, whining that the "left NEVER comes to our
side", taking all meaning from the term "compromise": Where was
he/she when GWB and his band started promoting the idea of "regime
change" (not "war", mind you) in Iraq? Plenty of Democrats jumped on
the War Wagon then, but the decision turned out to be a bad one, regardless of
what Mitt Romney said about it during the latest campaign.
@TulipWest Jordan, UT8:46 a.m. Dec. 5, 2012---------You really seem to have taken issue with the term "Common
Ground" - You and many other like you are constantly in this little
"Us vs. Them" mentality.Common Ground - i.e., Black/WhiteMuslim/JewMale/FemaleEasterner/WesternerUNITED States of America, ONE Nation, Under God, IndivisibleE
Pluribus Unum, Diversity = Common But go, keep fighting if you
must. Sink yourselves deeper and deeper into your "Bunker".===================================== @Roland KayserCottonwood Heights, UTTo LDS Liberal: Archie Bunker was a strong union
guy. He would not be welcome in today's GOP.9:04 a.m. Dec. 5, 2012Agreed!Democrats picked up the Unions in the 70's early
80's with the Healthcare issues that Republicans simply ignored.The
final straw came bout the time Reagan fired all the Air Traffic controllers for
going on strike for needing to work less stressful hours -- Which BTW, the FAA
ultimately sided and agreed with the Union and gave it to them anyway. Score 1 -
Union.Ironically - Unions also brought down the old Soviet Union and
European Communism. not Capitalism, not the U.S. Military.[It's
why China out-laws Unions]
Sorry, all the President haters on this blog just live in a la la land..oh wait
that's Boehners line...sorry. However when did the Democrats last come to
the Repbulicans..let's see the top marginal tax rate use to be 91%, 50%
under Regan, now it's 35%. Full Social Security retirement use to be 65,
now it's graduated up through 67. Capital Gains taxes use to be 25% now
15%. The list actually goes on and on. Exorbitant spending must
stop...stand your ground. Annual deficit under Obama has gone down each year
and is projected to be under the Bush years by 2016...happy..I didn't think
Republicans need to find some "common ground"? First they need to find
some common sense. The republican rejection of the disability treaty is one of
many object lessons in their lack that. Threat to U.S. sovereignty? My ... my.
The problem is, Mr. Larsen is most definitely the exception to his party.In fact, judging by his letter, he appears to lean closer to
Independents or Democrats than to Republicans.Look at your
party's position on science, women's rights, economic recovery, birth
certificates, health care (in the 90s, Obamacare was your health care reform
bill. Now it isn't because your party has become so radicalized), and now
the fiscal cliff.The truth is, Mr. Larsen is very much the exception
to the rule. Most of your fellow repubs are the nutcakes who have been writing
Compromise is better than standing your ground? We teach our kids
otherwise:If your boyfriend/girlfriend is pressuring you to have
sex, do we say "compromise" or "stand your ground"?If someone is pushing you to take illegal drugs...?If you are
being assaulted...?If your family is about to be destroyed...?
(compromise as in: Just leave me my firstborn, you can have the rest?)I think you can all see how silly this is. Well I love my country
too, and when people are trying to destroy it, I will indeed stand my ground, as
every good soldier should. NO STANDING DOWN even if the democrat leaders tell me
to.Exorbitant spending is an assault on this country, and the people
who do and will live here for generations to come. This must stop. No
compromise. No sacrificing my great great great great grandchildren to pay for
stupid programs today. And no more pretending a few more dollars from the rich
will stop the assault on the generations. It won't. We may have to tax
more, but that will never fix anything until spending is fixed. NO
compromise on spending cuts. STAND YOUR GROUND!!!
To LDS Liberal: Archie Bunker was a strong union guy. He would not be welcome in
Mountainman,You might be surprised to know that every year of the
Obama presidency, the borrowing has gone down. Tells you how high it was for
Bush.One thing you don't understand is that the value of the
dollar has nearly 0 effect within the United States. Yes, it does make imports
more costly, but it also increases exports. This is what China has been doing
for more than 20 years. Keeping its currency at low values to keeps its exports
high.A low value US Dollar will cause an increase of Jobs in the US
as manufacturing increases. Exports will increase which will lower the trade
deficit.Obama wants and has put forward a 4 to 1 cuts to spending
increase plan multiple times and each time, the Republicans are the ones that
are against it claiming no taxes.Now, if Republicans had agreed with
the 4 to 1 offer last summer, the deficit this year would have been less than
$250B. This would have dropped to $175B next year and dropped each year after
and we would have returned to a surplus in 2017. No Republican plan ever has us
returning to a surplus, ever.
ECR: The problem is "common ground" is usually a one sided affair.
Seriously, when was the last time the "left" ever came our way! It
doesn't happen. "Common Ground" is code speak for "we must
cave...once again." Everyone talks about how both sides are to blame for
this mess. I couldn't agree more. Hence the "standing your ground"
comment to the Repubs.. Though O'bama may get his way, he doesn't need
our guys giving their "stamp of approval" all in the name of "common
How do you compromise with $16.5 trillion in debt and growing by over $1.5
billion everyday? How do you compromise with the President who has borrowed more
money than all the other presidents combined and has no plans to stop borrowing
even more? How do you compromise with losing your retirement savings as a result
of the debt causing the devaluation of our dollar? To compromised with this is
to sell your soul? What will we tell our children and grandchildren?
Great Letter.It's why I left the GOP 22 years ago.Like
Republicnas say themselves -- A Party that is becoming Whiter, Older, and
more male.aka, Archie Bunker
When we stand in the voting booth, WHAT are we voting for? Do we vote for the
future? Do we vote for candidates whose vision most closely matches the vision
of those who wrote and ratified the Constitution? Do we vote for those
candidates whose vision is not clouded by the constant erosion of those
principles? Slightly more than half the people voted for Obama. If
they truly thought about their vote, then they voted for those principles that
Obama promotes.Slightly less than half the people rejected
Obama's principles. Education in one field does not mean that
anyone who voted for Obama studied his platform and then did a point by point
comparison of his principles and his programs against his Constitutional duties
and Constitutional authority. The people have spoken, now we will
all pay the price for the decision that they made in that voting booth. Make no
mistake, that price will be incalculable. Higher taxes will be the least of our
Clark, this was a very thoughtful letter. I agree, "the taker, maker"
argument is is not valid. I was VERY surprised that my three MBA
in-laws all voted for Obama. These are three, Catholic, family men with
excellent jobs, and ethics. One of them put it very well when he said: "The things these guys are saying scared the "heck" out of
me!"When the Republican party is losing people of this caliber,
you know it has a problem.
Tulip..you ask the wrong question. The question now is why have a two party
system where both sides are so intransigent that no governing takes place? We
have two parties to represent the various views in the governing process, and we
have checks and balances in that process so that one view doesn't trample
the views of the other. You are absolutely wrong about not only the
reason for the "mess" we are in but what that "mess" is. The
"mess" is the absolute inability to get anything done. All the
specifics of governing are manageable. The debt can be reduced, entitlements
can be made sustainable..but not if one side digs in their heels and refuses to
engage in governing.
Tulip said, "We expect them to vote the values and principles of a
responsible government...not go along with the destructive policies of the
majority"But as the author of this letter eloquently pointed
out, it is possible to stand up for your values and principles while still
working with the other side to find common ground that will benefit the nation
as a whole. Not eveyone will be totally happy with the end result - in fact
that might be the mark of a successfull compromise - but the nation will move
forward in a positive way.Just because Barack Obama won the
election, he will not get everything he wants in the coming legislative term. I
think he is the first to realize and understand that. But his re-election is,
or should be, an indication to his detractors that the majority of the nation
support his positions over those that were presented by his opponent.Working togather in compromise is far better for the country than simply
"standing your ground." Thank you Clark Larson for pointing that out.
Mr. Larsen,Thank you for an outstanding letter. Would that all
would heed your advice.
Find Common Ground...seems we are in this mess for that very reason. It would be
more novel if Republiicans actually stood their ground. Though the president may
have his win there are still those who voted for Republicans. We expect them to
vote the values and principles of a responsible government...not go along with
the destructive policies of the majority. Else why even have a two party system.
Thank you, Clark Roger Larsen. At least there's one Republican in Utah who
isn't a sore-loser ideologue. As one who voted for President Obama, I
would issue a similar challenge to Democrats: Don't let that victory go to
your heads and ignore 48% of the electorate.The obvious common
ground in the "fiscal cliff crisis" is to continue current tax rates for
98% of the people who are not the ultra-wealthy. Republicans' refusal to
do even that indicates that Mr. Larsen's plea is a solitary voice crying in
the Republican wilderness.
It is nice to see letters like this from reasonable and intelligent people like
Mr. Larsen. Most of the people I know voted for Barack Obama and every single
one of them is gainfully employed in their chosen field and has built their own
life independently and by their own work and initiative.
Well said, Mr. Larsen. Thank you for being a sane, rational, patriotic person
who happens to bbe a Republcian.
Mr Larsen,A noble cause, however, you may first want to start with
the basics.50% of GOP voters believe that Acorn stole the
election.40+ % of GOP voters are not sure that Obama is an American
citizen.Yes, I sometimes vote Republican but don't tell anyone.
I don't want to be lumped in with those mentioned above.
Among employees of America's premier tech companies (Google, Apple,
Microsoft, etc), Obama received 80-90% of the vote. All ten of the
best educated states voted for Obama. Better education equals higher income
which equals higher taxes. Nine of the ten worst educated states voted for
Romney. Low education equals low pay, low taxes, and higher levels of government
assistance.There are three counties in Kentucky in which welfare
payments constitute over 50% of total county income, the highest level of any
area in the U.S. These three counties voted for Romney by a 4-1 margin.The Economist Magazine recently published a study that compared the federal
taxes paid by each state versus the federal funds received by that state. It
found with only a very few exceptions that conservative states pay less than
they receive, while liberal states pay more than they receive.The
entire conservative maker vs. liberal taker narrative is utter nonsense.