Lagomorph:While there is a lot to like in your comments, be careful
because they can be easily turned on you. When management demands concessions
and the union gives in, can we not say the workers got what they deserved?I think good management, fair compensation and respect between the two
parties, or what I call responsible capitalism, will get things done most
@William GronbergPayson, UT“There’s class warfare,
all right,but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and
we’re winning.” ~ Warren Buffett.You lose.The End
William Gronberg: "I know absolutely nothing about Seinfield."That's OK. It was famously a "show about nothing."
I wonder how many union members know how much of their dues goes into the
pockets of union bosses to make them rich? There are abuses on both sides!
@12:11 p.m. Hardly a change of subject. Class warfare is mentioned by the
letter writer in the last paragraph. The DN headline writer put class warfare
front and center.@12:02 p.m. Yes words and phrases change their
meaning. Perhaps this phrase should not have its meaning changed? Warfare
normally involves organized and large scale violence. It is just too strong a
word in my opinion for the context most people use it in.I know
absolutely nothing about Seinfield.The solicitation of opinion
should not involve a "fight". This is my fourth and final post per DN
rules. If there is any fight, it will be conducted by others.
No one cares William Gronberg. Stop trying to change the subject.We
need to start concentrating on our own country. We need to stop rebuilding other
nations and giving out handouts to defense contractors. We need to greatly
increase taxes and start to seriously invest into our education, infrastructure,
and health care system. Also, no more golden parachutes. CEOs get their salaries
and bonuses AFTER the other debts, including pensions and salaries to workers,
are paid off. Can't give the workers their pay? You don't deserve your
@William GronbergI'll bite . . .I think your issue
is a tempest in a teacup, and a lot of semantic handwringing for (virtually)
nothing. It's a little like claiming that labeling the Seinfield character
(and real-life person he is based on) "the Soup Nazi" is unconscionable
because of how disrespectful it is to the victims of Hitler's regime.The meaning of words and phrases tend to change over time, and often
there is absolutely no connection between current uses of words/phrases and
their sometimes-nefarious origins; but you already knew that.I have
a feeling that you are just being pugnacious and spoiling for a fight, and I
just fell victim to one of the classic blunders (third behind not getting
involved in a land war in Asia and not going in against a Sicilian when death is
on the line): you were "trolling" and I took the bait.
Is anyone willing to expand on or detract from the following ?"“Class warfare” gets used often in today’s
conversations and writings. 99 % of the time the context in which it is used is
utter and complete nonsense. Genuine class warfare took place under the
totalitarian rule of Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Mao Zedong. The class with
power murdered millions of human beings. The improper use of the term class
warfare is an insult to the millions of victims of genuine class
warfare."I do not think the above is too esoteric.
William GronbergPayson, UTIs anyone willing to expand on or detract
from the following ?"The improper use of the term class warfare
is an insult to the millions of victims of genuine class warfare."See 4:05 p.m.10:51 a.m. Dec. 3, 2012============ You made the comment.What are you talking about?
Is anyone willing to expand on or detract from the following ?"The improper use of the term class warfare is an insult to the millions
of victims of genuine class warfare."See 4:05 p.m.
Some excellent, common sense comments here.Not many trying to defend
the indefensible disparities in our workplaces today. But that brings the
question: How do we break this cycle of corporate greed and help boost ordinary
Americans upon whom our economy really depends, upward on the ladder of
The Right loves to lay the blame for faltering manufacturing at the feet of
labor due to the high costs of salaries, pensions, and benefits. Yet they give
management a pass. Can anyone explain why? Management freely entered into the
contracts with labor and negotiated the terms. They made promises to labor that
they would manage the companies in a way that would provide the financial
wherewithall to fulfill their promises. Management was unable to maintain their
end of the bargain. They managed incompetently. They misjudged markets,
designed lousy products, and sales suffered and companies failed. And yet labor
gets the blame. How come? Labor did their job. They showed up for work and
produced the widgets. If management had done their job and made sound business
decisions (which is what they are supposed to do), there wouldn't be these
problems.An aside: In the 1960s-70s, executives earned about 40
times the average salary of the workers. Now they make about about 400 times.
Does anyone seriously believe that CEOs deliver ten times more value to their
companies now than they did 30 years ago?
A great perspective on this issue can be found in the book "Nickel and
Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich. I strongly
recommend it. Dr. Ehrenreich, a cellular biologist and writer, spent
a year undercover working and attempting to live on minimum wage jobs. Her
experiences are eye-opening.
Airlines have been run by corporate raiders for years. Hostess was following
that tried and true raider plan to legally steal and then blame everything on
the unions.Many people become wealthy honestly, many more will try
any way they can.
Thanks for the letter, Dane. Well done.To liberal larry: Your post
demonstrates to me that I need to make a better effort to learn which companies
are paying their employees fairly and which ones are penny-pinchers, and to buy
more from those that are generous to employees.
“Class warfare” gets used often in today’s conversations and
writings. 99 % of the time the context in which it is used is utter and
complete nonsense. Genuine class warfare took place under the totalitarian rule
of Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Mao Zedong. The class with power murdered
millions of human beings. The improper use of the term class warfare is an
insult to the millions of victims of genuine class warfare.
Class warfare is ok as long as the revenue/reward is moving up to the 1%.
Excellent letter!We need to reward companies like CostCo that pay
their employees a living wage (average about $20.50/hour), and avoid corporate
Scrooges like WalMart, that pay third world wages.
@ high school fan: You cannot take care of yourself if you are working a job
that does not pay you properly.If wages for the average worker had
grown at the same rate as wages for upper management, minimum wage would be $23
per hour.Should minimum wage be $23 per hour? Of course not. But
to claim that workers should be able to care for themselves and their families
when, on a comparative basis, they are making less per hour now then they were
making 30 years ago is ridiculous.When upper management is making
more in a day than their average employee makes in a year, that is a problem.Middle class Americans have most definitely been wealthier in the past
than they are now.
To: Dane HendersonOrem, UtahWhat and excellent letter, and
spot on.Not one mention about political parties, just a letter
reporting the TRUTH of what really happened.I don't care if
Hostess gets bought out and Twikies, HoHos or Ding-Dongs makes a come back --
I will NEVER buy anything from them again -- EVER!
When one really looks at business failures they will see many factors but the #1
reason is mismanagement. Poor decisions, poor management of assets, poor
accounting practices and not using the union as a partner in success. Unions are
not prudent in every situation but if workers feel the need then that should be
the first sign something is amiss. Companies often overlook their best
customers, their employees. Hostess, an American institution was destroyed by
more than greed at the top. It was destroyed by a false sense of entitlement at
Correction -- I misspelled the first name of Justice Brandeis. It's Louis
and not Lewis.I wasn't fully awake.
high school fan, may I suggest you try to expand your horizons by doing some
research?A good place to start would be to read "Who Stole the
American Dream," by Hedrick Smith.It's very easy to express
an opinion, but it requires some sincere effort to make sure it is a valid
opinion based on knowledge.
Great letter.It exposes the truth behind Hostess's failure...
Not because of the unions but because they had been mismanaged by those at the
top who merely wished to raid and steal from the company and then run away as
fast as they could leaving the company in worse circumstances than before.
Excellent letter, Dane. Very well done indeed.
While not a fan of greed I do laugh at you who blame corporations for our
troubles.. This is not the case. The problem today is that people do not want
to take care of themselves.We as a people have never been wealthier than
we are right now.the rich being poorer would not make us wealthier, in fact just
the opposite would be true.
Thanks, Dane, for the excellent perspective you present. Most Americans,
particularly those dedicated to the two major political parties, are convinced
that the corporate interest is the same as America's interest. Their stated
goal is to maximize the wealth of shareholders and executives. As less openly
stated goal, but a goal nonetheless, is to minimize costs, particularly the cost
of labor. If they can do it by shipping jobs overseas, they will. If they can do
it by bullying workers into accepting lower wages, they will. If they can do it
by increasing labor productivity, so that they can produce the same amount of
product with fewer workers, they will.Many Americans harbor the
mistaken notion that the enemy is government, and that corporations are their
friends. The Founders would be appalled.
An excellent letter, and spot on.For a very disturbing read on the
subject, may I recommend and excellent book by Hedrick Smith? It's called
"Who Stole the American Dream?"It pulls no punches and
assigns blame where it belongs with both parties and with America's
increasingly greedy corporate bosses.Lewis Brandeis said, clear back
in the early 1900's: "We must make our choice. We may have democracy,
or we may have wealth concentrated int eh hands of a few, but we can't have