Quantcast
Opinion

Letter: After election, seems takers now outnumber the makers in this country

Comments

Return To Article
  • non believer PARK CITY, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 1:04 p.m.

    A review recently completed by the Legislature found that $5.2 billion of Utah's $12 billion budget comes from the federal government in some form or another.

    So Utahn's are ALL TAKERS as well! Imagine that? Hypocricy at its finest!

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 30, 2012 1:47 a.m.

    Obama won only 1 (Florida) of the top 10 states in terms of percentage of people not paying income taxes (the rest are southern states and Idaho).

  • Bebyebe UUU, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:01 p.m.

    redshirt

    @ 11:39 are you wasting time at work?

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 6:10 p.m.

    Britain raised their tax rates and what happened? 2/3rds of their millionaires left the country. Obama has no other plan than to raise the debt and increase the debt ceiling....only a fool believes in this kind of fiscal policy! As a Maker, I will continue to pay what I have always paid and will continue to find ways to pay less and will take advantage of the losers who voted for Obama and are foolishly waiting for him to tax the rich~?

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 4:37 p.m.

    Old Man:

    The Cleveland woman with the phone called it an Obama phone. If you think she is wrong, you should have straightened her, and all her neighbors in Cleveland out, before the election.

    The Obama camp used the phones to buy votes, period. I realize that woman is now an embarrassment, but she is, in part, what the Obama camp made her. Live with it.

    Shall we blame Nixon or Ford for the next Obama administration failure or embarrassment?

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 29, 2012 11:39 a.m.

    The takers don't quite outnumber the makers in this country, yet.

    See "‘Welfare Nation’: The Sad Truth" at The Blaze. Currently there are 1.25 people employed in private industry for every government worker and welfare recipiant. If that doesn't bother you enough, there are 1.65 employed people for every welfare recipiant.

    My favorite stat was that a single mom lives better making $29,000/yr and getting welfare than she is earning $69,000/yr with the same equivalent benefits.

    It's no wonder people would rather get welfare than work.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 9:32 a.m.

    @Screwdriver
    1:23 a.m. Nov. 29, 2012

    Agreed. Malarkey.
    MikeRichards: "Two of my best customers simply closed shop…”
    Simply not true.

    1. Obamacare hasn't even gone into effect.
    2. No successful business runs on a 0.7% profit margin.
    3. Businesses passes along additional operating costs with a price increase. Like increases in gas or raw materials.

    ====================

    @atl134
    3:13 a.m. Nov. 29, 2012

    Papa John's guy says he'd have to increase the cost of pizzas 11-14 cents to cover obamacare. It really wouldn't harm Papa Johns at all to increase pizza prices 2-3% [11-14 cents]. Makes no difference to the consumer if a pizza is 6.29 instead of 6.14.

    [Correct -- Truth be told, IF a business were to increase price due to "Obamacare", they mostly likely would go it a full dollar more. Say $6.99 to $7.99

    Since Obamacare is really only a 15-20 cent increase, then the owner is actually going to see an 80-85 cent INCREASE in profit! But don't let Capitalist Republicans in on that dirty little "secret".]

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:19 a.m.

    Patriot -- one more time.

    It's not an Obama Phone.

    It's a REAGAN phone.

    Please stop blaming Obama for things St. Ronald did.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:15 a.m.

    The Affordable Care Act promises tax credits and cost-sharing subsidies for individuals who earn between 100 and 400 percent of the federal poverty level. The goal is to help people satisfy the individual mandate when they can’t afford insurance and don’t qualify for Medicaid.
    In addition, small businesses will qualify for tax credits if they have no more than 25 employees and average wages of $50,000 per year.
    On the other hand, the health law imposes a penalty of $95 or 1 percent of adjusted gross income per adult, whichever is greater, beginning in 2014. The charge jumps to 2 percent or $325 per adult in 2015, and it rises again to 2.5 percent or $695 per adult in 2016.

    The CBO estimates that 16 million people will receive credits or subsidies to help pay for insurance coverage through the new exchanges in 2016. That’s 5 percent of the overall population.
    To review, we’re talking about 1.2 percent of the population paying penalties, compared to 5 percent receiving tax credits or subsidies
    (Washington Post).

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:12 a.m.

    pragmatist, screwdriver

    whatever rational you want to throw up there does not change the fact that Mike and his business suffered because of BO and his policies.

    20 hours since I asked, and no one has been able to tell me ONE thing BO has done to help the economy. And don't give me the lie of the porkulus - the recession ended 2Q 2009, and less than 5% of the porkulus had been spent by then, so it CLEARLY was NOT the porkulus that ended the recession

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 3:13 a.m.

    @shaun
    Well the Papa John's guy says he'd have to increase the cost of pizzas 11-14 cents a pie to cover for obamacare. Others suggest it's not that much but I'll take him at his word that it's accurate. The average pizza probably costs more than 5 dollars but I want to make sure I overestimate Obamacare's cost so that people don't just say it's my liberal bias. 11-14 cents of a 5 dollar pizza is a 2-3%. So as the CEO stated, getting healthcare for his employees, something the Bain-helped company strongly opposes, would only increase costs 2-3%. Now that might be a lot if your profit margin is something like 5%. That's half your profits. However... I don't know any person in the nation who would refuse to buy a pizza just because it's 11-14 cents more expensive now. AND employees would have health insurance. That's the Obamacare subsidies to businesses at work. It really wouldn't harm Papa Johns at all to increase pizza prices 2-3%. Makes no difference at all to the consumer if a pizza is 6.29 instead of 6.14.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:23 a.m.

    QUOTE "Two of my best customers simply closed shop rather than working for the government."

    Really? I actually have owned a business and had hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in it along with a multi year lease and other obligations. There just isn't any logic in your statement unless they were allready loosing money from the Bush recession and HAD to close.

    You don't just walk away from a huge investment and future obligations because Obamacare will EVENTUALLY cost you some money. That's just rediciulous and I think you're making it up or easily fooled by thier inability of taking personal responsibility for their own business losses. Most of Obamacare hasn't even taken effect yet so that's about the lamest excuse you could find.

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:17 a.m.

    Variations of this quote have been attributed to Tytler, DeToqueville and others. It is true if you read it correctly: democracy will fail when people realize they can vote themselves tax breaks and favors from the public trough. Those "takers" today are the largest corporations (the are people according SCOTUS) and the wealthy whose public largesse far outweighs the 47% on a per capita basis.

    The quote is simply a variation of the scripture which forbids the idler (the millionaire lounging in his deck chair) from eating the bread of the laborer (the guy mowing the millionaire's lawn).

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:07 p.m.

    Can anyone give specific numbers on how obamacare will tax a business to death? I have heard it is an one percent tax on taxable income after 250k.

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:56 p.m.

    Take it from someone with a front row seat to how your federal tax money is spent: far more of it goes to line the pockets of so-called "maker" defense contractor CEOs than to indolent "takers" in this country. If you think that paying the former's golf club memberships with your tax dollars is more worthwhile than assisting retirees, students, families below the poverty line, veterans, and the disabled, please tell your congressman to keep supporting massive subsidies to the private sector "makers" (it's as American as apple pie!). And do some soul searching.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:51 p.m.

    We're fine. This 'takers/makers' thing is just a hot air sideshow.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:28 p.m.

    Get over it sore losers. Fact is Romney offered a shiny new twenty percent across the board tax cut paid for with.... Well he never says which is code for he would not pay for it.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 4:51 p.m.

    @CI
    "Surely this letter writer knew he would get a barrage of hate from the "tolerant" people. which ironically advances the credibility of his point."

    what cotniues to be ironic is that you always complain about others trying to play the victim but are always the first one to play the victim card on every thread.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 4:08 p.m.

    @silo
    "The beauty of your posts is that they paint a caricature of yourself without even you realizing it. When someone points out the irony and hypocrisy, you double down on the caricature."

    I do realize it. 'Becoming what you despise' should be a concern for everyone - even you. I do have to watch myself (as should you). However; in this case, I was responding to a distinct overreaction by Ultra Bob - your post merely put words in my mouth so you could whine that you are put-upon. Therefore it is rational for me to discount your criticism as merely being a manipulative attempt at shaming me into silence, while excusing yourself from your own "caricature". Amazingly; You are human too; check the mirror.

    @CHS
    You can disagree with conservatives all you want, and ironically they can do the same. Just don't complain that you are a poor innocent victim when they call you on the 'I hate intolerant people' drivel - because they are rightfully noticing the hypocrisy. You are the one who jumped to the 'take away the right to vote' hysteria, not I. Guilt trip officially rejected.

    @one old man
    Whatever - its still a brilliant quote

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 3:47 p.m.

    To Mike Richards. So two businesses closed and around 50 people lost their jobs because the owners calimed they wouldn't continue to work if they had to provide health insurance for their employees (I'm sumizing here a little). First of all if you employ under fifty people you don't have to provide health insurance under the ACA and there is no penalty. So somebody made a very bad decision.

    Secondly, a business owner who pays $15 an hour with no benefits (especially health care) is the very cause of why 47% of Americans work, receive government subsidizies, and pay no income taxes. You and your friends can't have it both ways. Pay poverty wages then complain about families not paying taxes and getting "free stuff".

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 3:17 p.m.

    News Flash -> The 'takers' have out numbered the makers for some time now - long before the November election. We have burned into our minds the sad site of the Cleveland lady screaming for her 'Obama phone'. Yikes... what a mess this country is in!! "Ask NOT what you can do for your country but what your government can give you for free" (Barack Obama)

    Yes sir - the great 'entitlement society' has prosperity waiting just around the corner ... right?? I guess that all depends on the next trillion dollar stimulus. America is in a world of hurt as never before and most don't even know it. They will pretty soon. We all will.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 3:01 p.m.

    @ Open Minded Mormon,

    What has Obama done that has hurt me personally? Obamacare! Two of my best customers simply closed shop rather than working for the government. More than fifty people lost their jobs. Each business owner said that he had worked 80 hour weeks all of his life and he wasn't going to continue working that hard just so that Obama could tax him out of existance.

    The average wage paid by those two companies was $15 per hour. None of the work required more than an hour or two training. Do the math. $1,500,000 was taken out of circulation because 50 people no longer had jobs. Most were able to find other jobs that paid minimum wage. Their income fell by 50%. Obama's policies did that. His threat to increase taxes did that. His Obamacare, with its ill-defined provisions did that.

    Because those two businesses closed, my businesses revenues fell by over 50%.

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 2:47 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence

    The beauty of your posts is that they paint a caricature of yourself without even you realizing it. When someone points out the irony and hypocrisy, you double down on the caricature.

    "extremist, irrational, histrionic and intolerant."

    Projection much?

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 2:32 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence

    I guess a person is only intolerant if they disagree with conservatives, right?

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 1:54 p.m.

    Seems Mike and Mountanman are outnumbered, outgunned, and outmatched in pretty much every way possible. May as well give it up, boys. The more you argue, the less sense you make.

    It's interesting to note, however, that Utah is one of the "taker" states, along with many other red states. Their shortfall, fortunately, is covered by several blue states, including Illinois and New York that pay more in taxes than they receive in "free stuff" from the government.

    As for the 47 percent who pay no income tax and would vote for Obama regardless of how many promises Mitt could make, well many of those 47 percent did vote for Mitt. Many were poor Mormons.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 1:05 p.m.

    @Silo
    My statement was specifically to Ultra Bob's comment demeaning opposition to big government with a patronizing statement that "they don’t need government to tell them how to do it"; as if small government inherently meant "don't need government"

    You responded in the complete reverse: yet can you point out anywhere where I stated that opposition to big government meant TOTAL government?

    If you have to lie about what I said to make your point - than I am safe to assume that you have no valid point.

    @ CHS 85

    That response was simply a histrionic reaction: no one has said anything about denying people the right to vote - so don't put words in my (or Franklin s) mouth in order to play victim. The gist of the quotes are abundantly clear; government cannot be everything to everyone and when the population assumes that it can; freedoms are lost.

    Thank you both for proving what I have long known: the far left is NOT tolerant and thrives in the extremes.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 1:02 p.m.

    Counter Intelligence -- here is what historians at Monticello (Thomas Jefferson's home in Virginia) had to say about your alleged "quote" from Jefferson.

    "We have never found such a statement in Jefferson's writings. As far as we know, this statement actually originates with Gerald R. Ford, who said, "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have," in an address to a joint session of Congress on August 12, 1974."

    But I guess you do have to hand it to some folks. They sure can be creative when it comes to "quoting" our Founding Fathers.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:58 p.m.

    CHS, it would also eliminate the rich guys from voting. Stop and think, how much of their income is somehow from the government?

    I doubt there is ANYONE in America who can legitimately claim complete independence from any financial advantages or outright income from the government.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:53 p.m.

    Counter Intelligence.

    When I hear the words “government should protect ... and then get out of the way”, it sure sounds like they don’t want any government of business.

  • Henderson Orem, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:40 p.m.

    It's interesting to see the "party of accountability" do anything but take accountability for their latest election loss.

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:23 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence

    So let me play devil's advocate for you. Should all government employees be exempted to vote based on Benjamin Franklin's quote? Should military members be exempted because, after all, they are voting in the own best interest ($$$$).

    Should only those who receive NO benefit from the government be allowed to vote? Farmers - nope. Defense contractors - nope. Social Security recipients - nope. Medicare recipients - nope. Medicaid recipients - nope. College students - nope.

    Let's see. That means that only rich guys will be allowed to vote. Sounds like what the Founding Fathers wanted all along.

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:22 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence

    Whenever any poster makes the assumption that advocates of any government want TOTAL government - I find it easy to discount such opinion as extremist, irrational, histrionic and intolerant.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:18 p.m.

    Maverick
    It was pretty clear that BO had no new ideas. He offered no plans. He offered no solutions. That’s why he ran a campaign of class warfare and divisiveness rather than one touting any accomplishments.

    Open Minded-Mormon
    Please tell us ONE thing BO has done to help the economy. Be specific.

    As for what you asked Mike about what BO has done to limit business growth – dudd-frank has limited credit for business expansion; EPA regulations have added burdensome costs to production and transportation; rescinding energy development permits has shut down energy production on public lands. there are three right off the top of my head.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:13 p.m.

    The "Makers" are being killed in sweat-shop factory fires in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    The "Takers" are Sam Walton's Multi-MULTI-Billionarie heirs who do nothing but kick-back and collect the profits of THEIR labors.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:08 p.m.

    @Ultra Bob

    Whenever any poster makes the assumption that advocates of small government want NO government - I find it easy to discount such opinion as extremist, irrational, histrionic and intolerant

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:55 a.m.

    It is altogether possible that Benjamin Franklin would make such a statement, he was after all a businessman.

    The fact is that businessmen often broadcast lies to defend their oppression of people. Lies like:

    Businessmen create jobs, rich people create jobs. Give the rich businessman more money and he will create jobs. Fact is, this is true. Given more money the rich businessman will spend more money and create a few jobs. The rest of the story is that he will fight to the death to prevent any redistribution of the money he socks away.

    Businessmen will do the right thing, make the product safe, healthy and proper all by themselves, they don’t need government to tell them how to do it.

    Corporations are people.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:45 a.m.

    Surely this letter writer knew he would get a barrage of hate from the "tolerant" people. which ironically advances the credibility of his point.

    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic" Benjamin Franklin

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:18 a.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Everything that Obama does is backwards. He penalizes the producers. His policies shut down businesses. He reduces revenue by limiting business growth.

    =============

    Seriously?

    From your previous comments, you have disclosed you are a small business owner.

    You some across as someone who has taken this all too very personally, so let me ask it point blank --

    Please tell us all precisely WHAT policies Pres. Obama has taken over the course of the last 4 years that has penalized your production, shut-down or impacted your daily business or has limited your business growth?

    [Please be specific. Any hyperbole or generalities will simply be excused as a mindless, emotion filled rant. Be specific with actual facts and data and we will listen.}

    The ball is in your court.
    You have the microphone (keyboard) and a listening audience.

    We kindly await your reply.

    Thank You.

  • LiberalEastCoastMember Parkesburg, PA
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:10 a.m.

    Google the statement. Ben Franklin never said any such tripe. According to Wiki, the earliest attribution is 1988. Do your homework!

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:02 a.m.

    It's pretty clear that the GOP has no new ideas. They have no plans. They offer no solutions. Folks like Mike Richards can only insult and belittle.

    This is why they were soundly beaten just a few weeks ago.

    I'm sorry folks, but your vision of America has been rejected.

    Time to come to the negotiating table and compromise with the President. Stop making excuses.

    If you do not, then I fear that you will continue to lose middle America. Yes, you'll have a few billionaires. But, unfortunately, as this election proved, money cannot buy you everything.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:52 a.m.

    And so my job is not to worry about those people—I'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not, what it looks like. I mean, when you ask those people…we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4…

    [Recording stops.]

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:51 a.m.

    Audience member: For the last three years, all everybody's been told is, "Don't worry, we'll take care of you." How are you going to do it, in two months before the elections, to convince everybody you've got to take care of yourself?

    Romney: There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. And I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49, 48—he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn't connect. And he'll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean that's what they sell every four years.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:26 a.m.

    Obama has already cost every man, woman and child in Ameria over $16,600 by adding over $5 TRILLION to the deficit. In addition, healthcare costs have increased by over $2,500 per family per year since he entered office. To add insult to injury, the average household has had a decrease of over $4,000 per year in income. Over 23,000,000 Americans are unemployed. 100,000 more of them suddenly appeared on the unemployment roles the week after the election.

    If he increases the deficit and if wages are going down, just how does he expect the deficit to be paid? When companies are firing people instead of hiring people, how does he expect income tax to make a difference? If he takes money from those who COULD build businesses and hire people, how will that money pay for the welfare checks of people who COULD have had jobs.

    Everything that Obama does is backwards. He penalizes the producers. His policies shut down businesses. He reduces revenue by limiting business growth. He needs to spend his time learning economics 101 instead of flying around the country agitating the people.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:21 a.m.

    Montanman would have us know that the debt grows a billion a day (in truth it is higher) but offers no alternative except perhaps the Ryan (Romney) budget. Is he aware that the Ryan budget passed by the House at least 20 times does NOT balance the budget in its 10 year projections AND projects 5% growth of GDP for all 10 years? Beating up on the President is not a plan (hey wait...that is exactly what Mitt said to the President in a debate)!

    Stop arguing and show us what you've got or does it start and end only with "stop spending"?

    PS. Have you thought through the reality that for every spending cut you make, you put people in both the public and private sector out of work transforming them from makers into takers?

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:04 a.m.

    I agree. Those lazy moochers whose income comes entirely from investments are destroying our country. 13 percent of Americans pay no payroll taxes! NO Fica, NO money to cover Medicare and Social Security! Of course it makes sense for poor people to not pay federal income taxes; that tax is and always has been a progressive income tax, and it was never intended that everyone pay it. But payroll taxes are the taxes that really matter! And those people who get all their money via investments don't pay a DIME.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:00 a.m.

    Semitics my esteemed critics! The bottom line is that Romney was right! Exit polling data shows that the vast majority of people receiving entitlements did not vote for Romney! Had they done so, Romney would be our president! Entitlements bought votes for Obama! Debate every word Romney did or didn't say, but entitlements bought the election for Obama.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:53 a.m.

    "According to the Pew Research Center, 62% of Republicans during Reagan’s second term agreed that government has a responsibility to help the less-fortunate; today, only 40% believe that. Ignoring the benefits of getting people working, many conservatives now cite the growing number of non-income-taxpayers as a justification for saddling them with a larger share of the tax burden (while cutting taxes for themselves).

    Stop and think about that for a moment: A Reagan-endorsed program, (the Earned Income Tax Credit), to encourage work and get people off the dole has been recast by Romney as part of a dependency-breeding culture of shiftless moochers. That isn’t just wrong or bad politics. It rejects the basic faith in Americans’ capacity for self-improvement that is supposed to lie at the heart of our national character."
    (Joshua Green writing for Bloomberg)

    Additionally,
    "Part of the reason so many Americans don’t pay federal income taxes is that Republicans have passed a series of very large tax cuts that wiped out the income-tax liability for many Americans."
    (Ezra Klein)

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:50 a.m.

    This didn't cut & paste in --
    so I'm adding it as part 2, sorry ....

    @Mountanman
    Hayden, ID

    "the gentleman from Massachusetts" who said --
    "I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”

    That honesty about quoting someone still applies....

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:46 a.m.

    to the "gentleman from Hayden Idaho" who said -
    @Mountanman
    Hayden, ID

    "I know I am wasting my time but "the gentleman from Massachusetts" never said that 47% do not take responsibility for their own lives"

    He said that about 47% don't pay federal income taxes and receive free stuff from the government and they won't vote for him".

    =============

    Umm, yes he did.
    and I'm calling your bluff (ie., bold-faced lie).

    Here is the direct quote from "the gentleman from Massachusetts":

    “All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon GOVERNMENT, who believe that they are victims, who believe the GOVERNMENT has a responsibility to care for them..."

    BTW - in the future Mountanman [who even went so far as to use "quotation" marks in his comment] --
    At lease be honest when you quote people, ok?

  • CHS 85 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:24 a.m.

    @Mountanman

    Here's the exact quote by Mitt Romney: “Our message of low taxes doesn’t connect...so my job is is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

    It appears to me that William Gronberg was right on.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:15 a.m.

    William Gronberg. I know I am wasting my time but "the gentleman from Massachusetts" never said that 47% do not take responsibility for their own lives! He said that about 47% don't pay federal income taxes and receive free stuff from the government and they won't vote for him". Obviously, that has proven to be true! If it wasn't he would be president! At lease be honest when you quote people, ok?
    Your history of Hayden, Idaho is also wrong. Wasn't it Lewis and Clark, as representatives of the federal government, who first informed the Native Americans that "the great white father in the east now owned all their lands"? In Idaho and in Utah, that's still true!

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:09 a.m.

    The ten best educated states all voted for Obama. Better education equals higher income which equals higher taxes. Of the ten worst educated states, nine voted for Romney, Nevada being the only exception. Draw your own conclusions.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:09 a.m.

    “U S Calvary”. Perhaps that was some kind of Freudian error ??? Correction, U S Cavalry.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:04 a.m.

    According to 2011 data from the Tax Policy Center, more than half of the filing units not paying income taxes are those with incomes less than $16,812 per year. Nearly a third - 29% of those paying no income taxes are tax filers earning between $16,812 and $33,542, and 12% are those with incomes between $33,542 and $59,486. In 2011, 78,000 tax filers with incomes between $211,000 and $533,000 paid no income taxes; 24,000 households with incomes of $533,000 to $2.2 million paid no income taxes, and 3,000 tax filers with incomes above $2.2 million paid no income taxes.

    The Tax Policy Center repots of the 38 million tax units made nontaxable by the addition of tax expenditures, 44% are moved off the tax rolls by elderly tax benefits and another 30 percent by credits for children and the working poor." Only 18% pay no payroll or income taxes. Of the 18.1% of American households who paid no federal income or payroll tax, more than half were elderly, and most of the other half were non-elderly people making below $20,000\yr.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:02 a.m.

    Good post, Kalindra.

    And the answers to all your questions is YES.

    As for the final question, it is anyone who disagrees with him.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:01 a.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    @ Pragmatistfer life. There you go again. No one said the 47% are unemployed! It a proven fact (inconvenient however)that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes and even more are receiving some entitlements.

    ===============

    So --
    Why is it that Mega-Billionaires like the Walton's of WalMart can "take" [without producing anything themselves},
    While the "workers" they employee for dirt wages qualify for Food Stamps, Medicaid, and all the other Government assistance?

    You see, this is m take on it...

    If I was in Government, I'd make these "Takers" at the top 1% either pay their "workers" more so they no longer qualify for Government assistance any longer [i.e., raise the minium wage],
    or
    Raise their Taxes and force THEM to repay the Government all those food stamps, Governent housing and Medicaid assistance their workers "took".

    The problem is Corporations get cheaper labor - and making even insane profits - because the people they employee [the working poor] are in essense subsidizing their profits via Government assistance.

    It's no different than Big Oil getting Government subsidze and skewing the true Market parice for gas,
    or subsidies for Farmers and skewing the true market price for foods.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:47 a.m.

    According to the gentleman from Massachusetts it is 47 % of the voters that do not take responsibility for their own lives. No one in that well heeled Florida crowd challenged that silly assertion of Mr. Romney's. The real unemployment rate is UN-knowable. Probably close to 15% ???

    The gentleman and Mr. Obama can promise many things when on the election trail. When you end up in the White House reality hits big time. Example closing Gitmo. The gentleman was going to increase “free” stuff for our military and pay for it with tax cuts. Perhaps some additional public debt would have also paid for the additional “free” munitions and delivery systems???

    Entitlements are as old as America and as American as apple pie. When the pioneers came to the Hayden, Idaho area they were totally entitled to the lands of the Indians. If any Indian was foolish enough to challenge that entitlement opinion then the U S Calvary (government) got involved.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:47 a.m.

    @ Mountanman: Do you acknowledge that you regard individuals who work and contribute to the economy as takers if their wages are low enough to keep them from paying income taxes - even if they are fully supporting their families with no government assistance?

    Do you consider retired people living frugally off their savings - on which they have already paid income taxes - and/or social security - which they paid into their entire working life - as takers?

    Do you consider veterans takers?

    Do you consider those who have mental and physical health problems which prevent them from working as takers?

    Please define exactly who these "takers" are.

    (Oh, and if you think raising taxes on the rich makes such a small difference, how much of a difference do you think taxing these individuals will make?)

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:40 a.m.

    Conservatives, your capacity for self-deception appears too know no bounds.

    Look, Romney won more votes from people age 55 and older by a wide margin. What group of Americans receives the most public support? Citizens age 55 and older.

    Do you seriously believe that corporations don't receive massive public assistance?

    But moreover, do you really believe that _you_ are virtuous, but people who disagree with you politically are not?

    Fine. Lock yourselves in your bunkers, turn up FOX really loud, read only right wing blogs, screech to each other against global warming and evolution, and fume about how awful the world is.

    You won't be missed.

  • Whatever Springville, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:29 a.m.

    Will all you faux news drones please just get over yourselves?? Once and for all, you lost, just deal with it you're embarrassing yourselves. You "patriots" are just passing on the latest spin and talking points fron the entertainment arm of the republican party, but the MAJORITY of us have and always will reject your blatant lies and trips to fantasy land (courtesy of glenn beck) and we and the country will be just fine, believe me.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:21 a.m.

    LDS lib,
    are you takling about those who have the sum total of $67 in taxes withheld from the paychecks throughout the year and file for a $4500 tax "refund"?

    You certainly cannot be talking about those who create jobs and actually PAY income taxes.

    Of course, the truth has never stood in the way of your opinions before.

    Pragmatist,
    stop distorting what others say so you can play the martyr. It's really unbecoming and reduces your credibility.

    Do you pay federal income tax or not is the simple question. Do you contribute to the federal budget or do you take from it? Do you pay more in federal income tax than you get back in your tax refund? Not "are you a productive member of society?" Unfortunately very few of us can say we pay more than we receive in benefits - if we could, we would not have the deficits.

    What the election showed is that we are OK living off what our children and grandchildren will have to pay. Either that or we are OK with eventually defaulting on our debt. Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:52 a.m.

    @ Pragmatistfer life. There you go again. No one said the 47% are unemployed! It a proven fact (inconvenient however)that about 47% of Americans pay no federal income taxes and even more are receiving some entitlements. Disagree if you will, but please, I beg you to stop twisting what people (including myself) say!

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:43 a.m.

    Well said Maverick. The other part of this "takers and makers" mantra is the insinuation that (a only my people work, or (b only the work of my people counts. That literly infuriates me. I think the unemployment rate is 7.9% not 47% so the first scenario is false on it's face. The second is the height of arrogance. My work doesn't count because it doesn't pay as much as yours or it doesn't pay enough to support my family..yet in Republican world if I had a high paying job and get laid off I shouldn't just lay around and collect "welfare" I should go get a job at McDonalds and flp burgers, eventhough that job was worthless two days ago because you can't support a family on it.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    Nothing could be further from the truth....

    1% are still the Takers,
    99% are still the MAKERS.

    When will ultra-Cons turn off their hate radio talkinghead college drop outs from that 1% ?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:30 a.m.

    All the evidence you need to know that Ben Franklin was right is the massive,(growing by over a $1 billion/day) national debt! Democrats can clap their hands over their ears and chant "Obama, Obama, Obama" all they want but the debt is very real and is a fast growing cancer that will consume us! We can not continue to spend money we don't have! Facts can not be ignored forever! Romney promised a balanced budget and jobs, Obama promised more free stuff and 3.5 million more duped Americans voted for the free stuff that we have no hope of paying for than for jobs and fiscal sanity! Obama's "tax the rich" solution will run the government less than 10 days! Obamacare is the largest tax increase the world has ever seen,($1.2 trillion per year increases in the national debt) is a job killer and will be the final nail in our economic coffin!

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:13 a.m.

    Nothing changed. If anything Carl Rove was thwarted from doing his thing and stealing the election again. There have long been more democrat leaning voters in the country. When they all turn up and their votes are counted - republicans loose.

    Even republicans have admitted to that and now you're doing it again only of course you want to mischaracterize the people that actually work, move, make, clean and create things as the undeserving takers instead of the the lazy borrowed capital providers that control the republican party, banks and many businesses.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:10 a.m.

    Another conservative who listens to too much hate radio.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 6:04 a.m.

    Republicans, you of course have the right to believe whatever you want about why Romney lost the election, including the demonstrably false griping of Mr. Woolsey's letter.

    But please know this - the surest way to guarantee your irrelevance as a political party and suffer increasingly lopsided defeats each election cycle is to soothe your damaged egos with the fairy tale that the voters who disagreed with what the GOP was offering are "takers" while you who supported Romney are "makers." That sentiment is a load of baloney, and most Americans know it.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:57 a.m.

    "Benjamin Franklin said it more than 200 years ago: "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.""

    And subsidies for agriculture, oil, tax cuts for the rich, and defense contracts aren't merely people voting themselves money?

    What kind of corrupt and bizarre fantasy are repubs living in where food stamps, student aid, and safety nets for older folks is considered an "end" to our republic while unfettered defense spending, unsustainable low tax levels, wall street bailouts, and subsidies are considered necessary and responsible?

    Jeez, no wonder why you people are a dying breed.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:26 a.m.

    All levity aside. How arrogant can a person be to dismiss the legitimate outcome of our national election? Does self-righteousness know no bounds???

    The claim that Utahns have an "extra gene of patriotism" is patently false in my opinion.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:23 a.m.

    I keep hearing this sentiment here in the land of the most-patriotic-people-in-the-nation. I'll be darned if I can figure out how to get my free stuff. I voted for Obama because he indisputably the best man for the job and now I get free stuff too?

    Wow! I love it when I wake up and Barack Obama is still My President!!!

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 3:36 a.m.

    Re: ". . . takers outnumber the makers . . . ."

    A situation carefully crafted by cynical "progressive" politicians who gain and keep power by buying off opportunistic egoists and gullible rubes who can't or won't see the damage they're doing to the Nation.