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Letter: Wearing leather, fur and other animals' skins is murder

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  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 9:03 p.m.

    I lived in Asia on my mission.

    They eat very little meat.
    2/3 of their diet is rice - a grain.

    They have less cancer, diabetes, heart diease, obesity is non-existant, they live longer and are much more healthy than Americans.

    I believe the Word of Wisdom speaks for itself, and doesn't need your lame interpretaions or twisted rationalizations or illogic to excuse your conscious.

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:28 p.m.

    Redshirt, I agree with ou that 49 forbids me from forbidding you to eat meat. It does not forbid me from eating meat or sharing my reasons for doing so. But since you seem interested in this please explain why the next verse is situated squarely between a bunch of scriptures about eating meat and shedding blood needlessly.

    Vs. 20 "But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin."

    Could it be that our diet affects others? Could it be that more people could benefit from direct consumption of the 20 pounds of grain and 500 gallons of water it takes to produce one quarter pounder?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 4:26 p.m.

    Uh. . . No redshirt, I said it was a silly argument.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 29, 2012 2:25 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" actually, those animals are eaten regularly. Just because you wouldn't lower yourself to eat them is another topic.

    Mink can be eaten, although few people do. Usually mink meat is sold to zoos and pet food companies.

    People in England eat fox meat, and say it is similar to deer.

    Rabbits are raised for meat production, just look to any homesteading website for this.

    Chinchillas are tasty too. I have eaten one.

    Just because you don't eat the meat doesn't mean that nobody does. You sound like you are above eating some of those fur animals.

    To "mark" so then you agree that killing innocent rodents and creatures for the production of grains is murder. Did those mice and voles get a say in how their homes were destroyed and children chopped up all so that you could have that loaf of wheat bread?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:47 p.m.

    "we are to use animals for both food and clothing in abundance. Did you see that ABUNDANCE. As in lots and lots of clothing."

    Another word for that is gluttony.

    By the way, I read the op-ed veganism is murder. It was a truly silly argument.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 1:35 p.m.

    The point of the letter is mink, leopard, fox, rabbit, Chinchillas and other animals are not killed for anything else other than their hides - not eat.

    As I recall - human skin was considered quite the fashion statement by high ranking Nazi German High Command. [It's the superiority complex of one race or species over others that quickly leads to this level of debauchery.]

  • Midvaliean MIDVALE, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 12:50 p.m.

    By this same logic, owning a cat is akin to harboring a murderer.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 29, 2012 9:55 a.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" can you quantitatively define "sparingly"? Plus, you are ignoring the scripture just like "Owen". Read D&C 49:18-19. It clearly states that we are to use animals for both food and clothing in abundance. Did you see that ABUNDANCE. As in lots and lots of clothing.

    If you claim to believe in the D&C, then you must accept the fact that we are to use animals for both food and clothing in ABUNDANCE.

    Do you only drive your car on 2 tires, or do you drive on all 4? If you believe in the D&C, then you must believe what they state so clearly.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:57 a.m.

    higv
    Dietrich, ID
    What did Adam do with the animals he sacrificed? I am sure ate the meat.

    Redshirt1701
    Deep Space 9, Ut
    To "Owen" nice try, but you failed to address D&C 49:18-19 which is very clear that anybody who tells you to no eat meat is wrong.

    ===============

    higv
    Dietrich, ID
    NO - He burned them.
    FYI - Christ did away with the "shedding of blood".
    Are you a Christian?

    FYI - Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith ate meat less than "a dozen times". His wife said made a slice of ham at Christmas over his 80-something years. He said he intended to obey the Word of Wisdom....ALL of it.

    Redshirt1701
    But is also says "SPARINGLY".
    The dictionary defines the word "sparingly" - not as "moderately" or "casually" but as in "times of an emergency".
    Do you drive on a "spare" tire daily? NO!

    USE and SPARINGLY.

    Read the words, and stop selective listening to twist and fit an agenda or rationizing some sort of guilt.

    You can either choose to obey, or not.

    I'm not going to force anything, let alone pass legislation on it.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 29, 2012 8:38 a.m.

    To "Owen" nice try, but you failed to address D&C 49:18-19 which is very clear that anybody who tells you to no eat meat is wrong.

    The ironic thing about the people like the letter writer is that the lifestyle they promote kills a lot of animals too. The only difference is that the animals killed are wild animals. See "Veganism Is Murder " at National Review Online. Or read "The Number of Animals Killed to Produce One Million Calories in Eight Food Categories" at Animal Visuals. Another article is "Researcher: Vegetarian Diet Kills Animals Too" at ABC News.

    What about all the bugs killed with pesticides? Isn't that murder too?

  • SLC gal Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 29, 2012 7:26 a.m.

    I agree with being fur free!!!!

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Nov. 29, 2012 7:16 a.m.

    I wonder what makes some people experts on there interpertation of scripture. Never mind leaders of the church enjoy a steak from time to time at the 4th of July. And for those manipulators Joseph Fielding Smith was not a vegetarian. Joseph B Wirthlin owned some type of meat company. LDS Vegans wish the church cared as much about Bambi and Bessie and Queen Nectar as they do.

  • Corn Dog New York, NY
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:25 p.m.

    Humans killing animals for survival mirrors what happens all the time in the natural world.

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:54 p.m.

    Nice try Redshirt. Conveniently leaving out Gen 9:11 "And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands." (JST)

    Some of us have promised to live within bounds. In the case of both D&C 89 and Genesis the bounds are if you are starving to death.
    In other words, if animal slaughter is a necessary evil, it is evil unless absolutely necessary.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:42 p.m.

    only fertilized eggs can hatch into chickens. Leather can be used after a cow is slaughtered for food. Much of the nutrients we eat comes from Meat. What did Adam do with the animals he sacrificed? I am sure ate the meat. I enjoy my meat and will wear what I want thank you.

    murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Animals only care about food are not capable of conscience and are here to feed and clothe us.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:41 p.m.

    We argue ourselves into some pretty interesting spots. We kill cows, chickens and pigs by the millions for food, but get apoplectic if horses are included. Other cultures bring quite a variety of other species into play. I'm not sure what the answer is. I suspect most poeple have no idea what it takes to put a high protein diet on our plates. I do, and I'm OK with it.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:38 p.m.

    Redshirt1701
    Deep Space 9, Ut
    To "Open Minded Mormon" I want to one up you. D&C 49:19
    19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance."
    1:23 p.m. Nov. 28, 2012

    ============

    the key word is USE ...
    What do you say we re-read that again together --

    "...is ordained for the USE of man for food and for raiment,"

    We don't need to kill a chicken to USE the eggs,
    We don't need to kill a cow to USE the milk,
    We don't need to kill a sheep to USE the wool,

    and our underclothes are made of cotton and sythetic fibers, not coats of skins.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 5:18 p.m.

    I don't think Open Minded Mormon read the 49th section of the Doctrine and Covenants. LDS vegans are good at twisting the D and C and other scriptures to fit there agenda.

  • Wow, that was awful Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 2:53 p.m.

    Abbey,
    Congratulations on your awareness.
    How far are you willing to extend your ban on "killing" what nature produces?

    Send your letter to the Tribune, you will likely find more sympathy among their readers.

  • FallenChocolate Sandy, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 2:23 p.m.

    Way to speak out! It's nice to see someone who cares about something bigger than themselves :) And very well said, too!

  • Thinkin\' Man Rexburg, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 2:03 p.m.

    Murder is person killing person. Animals are not people.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Nov. 28, 2012 1:23 p.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" I want to one up you. D&C 49:18-19 "18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

    19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance."

    Or Genesis 9:3-4 "3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
    4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." (have your steak, but make sure it is kosher.)

    Apparently we were given critters to fill our bellies with and to cloth our boddies with.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 1:10 p.m.

    Slaughter
    vs.
    Murder

    -- not the same thing.

    But I'm no lawyer.

  • CB Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 12:38 p.m.

    What happens to the goose whose down keeps me warm, when I lower the furnace to keep the
    environment cleaner? And even when I wear my Mink Jacket, I think it is much more useful and fulfilling of the life of that mink, than being a fur ball in some predator's belly.

  • Roller Gunnison, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:52 a.m.

    I know that the cattle killed locally for meat are treated very humanely by our farmers. Letter writer is throwing out a bunch of assumptions and propaganda put forth by PETA. People eating tasty animals. Mmmmm....

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:27 a.m.

    I think I just murdered a whole bunch of cotton plants.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 11:18 a.m.

    When is a murder not a murder? Is it even possible to live without killing other forms of life?

    Is it possible to live our lives without using the commodities brought to us by the struggle and wars that have killed so many human beings, their children, their pets and those who depended upon them?

    Is it possible to live without our daily struggle against the rodents, and other animal carrying germs, insects and bugs?

    Even a grain of wheat has the potential to grow and perpetuate it’s species if left alone and not be pulverized into bread.

    The Commandment Thou shall not kill sets before us an impossible task.

  • Ben H Clearfield, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:32 a.m.

    Native Americans used all of the buffalo that they killed for food. I eat meat and have no problem with using leather for clothing. I feel it is a waste to kill a cow for food and not use the skins for clothing. Let's make certain we don't waste the gifts that God has given to us.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:23 a.m.

    Kalindra,

    Very well said. Thank you.

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:09 a.m.

    Had a hamburger for dinner yesterday, bacon for breakfast this morning. Philosophically, I'm sympathetic to your cause; your hyperbolic rhetorical excesses aren't helping. Sure, we probably should eat less meat, but when you accuse more Americans of murder, I'm more likely to respond with laughter than agreement.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Nov. 28, 2012 10:06 a.m.

    higv
    Dietrich, ID
    Animals are here for us to give us food and clothing in abundance.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    the Lord made clothing for Adam and Eve out of animal skins when they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Take up your concerns with Him on this issue because for the rest of us, it is a non-issue!

    ===============

    More false Mormon Doctrine spread.
    Once again coming from the same uber-far-right-wingers...

    God never said in "abundance"!

    D&C 89
    12 ....nevertheless they are to be used SPARINGLY;

    13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should NOT be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or FAMINE.

    15 And these hath God made for the use of man ONLY in times of famine and excess of hunger.

    I'll bet my last dollar both of you could stand to loose a few extra pounds...

    You're bot breaking the Word of Wisdom,
    and it has nothing to do with the great debate about Diet Cokes.

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 9:55 a.m.

    Gratuitous cruelty to animals is never in style, but your argument demonstrates that fur is not the only fringe element in our society. You have also made a new definition for the word murder. Such hyperbole does your cause no good.

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:32 a.m.

    Bacon....

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:12 a.m.

    Abbey does point out some dubious ways animals are treated. Sometimes “efficiency” and profits trump more humane procedures. That said, I wish I had an egg and ham breakfast waiting for me this morning.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 28, 2012 8:07 a.m.

    It is not just that our own skins don't keep us warm "anymore" - the skin of Homo sapiens has never been sufficient protection against the elements. To say "use your own skin" is to provide no real solution to a very real problem and places your concern for some animals above your concern for other animals - the human animal can freeze and suffer as long as that means these other animals are spared is a very hypocritical argument and removes any moral high ground you may think you possess.

    Wearing fur is not murder. Although the animals may be abused and tortured (practices that should be stopped) and eventually killed, the killing of them does not meet the current definition of murder - and the wearing of the skin of a dead animal, is most definitely not an act of murder.

    Hyperbolic letters such as this have been proven highly ineffective in convincing people to change behavior. Your lack of a reasoned argument and alternative is sophomoric and does nothing to further your cause.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    If you don't want to use leather or fur, don't! Problem solved. For the rest of us, the Lord made clothing for Adam and Eve out of animal skins when they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Take up your concerns with Him on this issue because for the rest of us, it is a non-issue!

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Nov. 28, 2012 6:49 a.m.

    While my thoughts are not as extreme there is a huge difference between people killing an animal for food and using everything including the hide as clothing and the deplorable practices of today where everything is wasted except the hide.

    Especially when it's just not necessary. We have plenty of other choices now and we should be moving towards less use of animals.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Nov. 28, 2012 6:46 a.m.

    Animals are here for us to give us food and clothing in abundance. They are to be used and I will use those things to keep me warm. And eat animals as well as well as there products. People may use the misguided concern for animals to control human lives.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2012 6:15 a.m.

    Right, Abbey. Let's all go barefoot. Or we can substitute shoes made of recycled tires or plastic. What a boon to the petroleum industry.
    And ban footballs made of real pigskin.
    No more leather upholstery in your living room or car.
    Something tells me you are also vegan, right?