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Comments about ‘Letter: Secession from the United States is ridiculous’

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Published: Wednesday, Nov. 21 2012 12:00 a.m. MST

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Black Knight
American Fork, UT

In addition, seniors would lose their social security and medicare.

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

And this can all be blamed on Obama.

He has made the radical decision to promote the same or similar policies and ideas that have been championed by both R and D presidents for years.

The nerve.

Tulip
West Jordan, UT

All the programs you allude to will likely suffer if not vanish anyway if we continue on this path of "ridiculous" fiscal irresponsibility. Though I don't personally believe in seceding, I surely understand the mentality many are feeling. The present administration is not serious about cleaning up the "mess" and those who do put serious ideas on the table are mocked, scorned, and tossed aside as uncaring and bigoted. America is in decline...like never before. People are simply trying to escape a disaster and seek a better future for their families.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

The succession idea is a symbolic protest of our morally bankrupt government who steals money from those who EARN it and redistributes it to those who don't! For those of you who believe the government has a moral right to confiscate other people's property and re-distribute it, consider this: if I steal YOUR money am I a crook? Should I go to jail? What if I steal your money but I "redistribute" your money to people I think deserve it more than you? What if many of your neighbors agree that they deserve to receive what you have earned more than you do? Get it now?

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

One more point: If I steal your money year after year and I get angry with you because you disagree with me about my "right" to steal your money, would you keep trying to earn money? Would you eventually say, why should I keep investing, working hard and creating wealth, it does no good? That about sums up where we are in America today!

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

Broken Record Mountanman.

Roads, police, fire, schools, defense etc are provided by governments and are funded by taxes.

People can and often DO disagree with how the money is spent.
But, it is undeniable that both R AND D legislators have been doing it for decades.
And the current administration, Obama included, is running the country just like his predecessors.

Where was the backlash under Bush, or Reagan for that matter?

Taxes are lower under Obama than under Bush or Reagan. Why are you not commending him? Or, at a minimum, recognize that he is better in this regard than his predecessors.

Partisan politics perhaps?

ugottabkidn
Sandy, UT

This irrational reaction is nothing more than people listening too much to people on the radio. There will be no secession even Justice Scalia has made that clear. These unhappy souls do have the right to seek happiness elsewhere. I hear Canada has offered up Nunofit for settlement.

Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

@Mountanman
"The succession idea is a symbolic protest of our morally bankrupt government"

Secession is a pretty serious measure, and one that should not be taken lightly, even symbolically. The one time secession was seriously acted on it caused the bloodiest war in American History. Brother against brother, a time in which I had hoped we had learned our lesson and dared not repeat.

When the colonies "seceded" from Britain, it was a little different. First off, there was a huge geographic separation known as the Atlantic Ocean, the colonies were suppliers (not takers) to Britain and already had enjoyed relative autonomy until the French and Indian War.

Biggest difference is when the decision was made, Thomas Jefferson laid out 39 specific charges against the crown, and then the signers pledged to each other their lives, fortunes and honor, knowing if they lost they had committed treason, and were willing to give their lives if necessary.

Are you?

There is nothing innocent, cute, funny or "symbolic" in such a request to secede. Unless you have that same conviction as those in 1776 it's nothing more than a disgusting fantasy that dishonors those who created this nation.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

@ Joe Blow. You missed my point, again! Entitlement spending is at an all time high and going up by trillions every year through redistribution. Almost half of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all and are getting some kind of free goods that other people earned. We have plenty of other taxes (fuel taxes, property taxes, and state taxes) to pay for roads, schools and firefighters. Entitlement redistribution is not sustainable but it sure wins elections for the Democrats, at least until we go bankrupt!

Mike in Cedar City
Cedar City, Utah

Another result of this asinine secession notion is that any leaders involved would be guilty of Treason. Personally, I think anyone who promotes this foolhardy notion should be tried for that crime.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

I am not in favor of secession, but the arguments put forth by the letter writer are ridiculous. Why on Earth would a separate country Utah close down everything the federal government currently handles? The national parks would still be open, just managed by a different nation. Likewise the highways would be open and managed by us instead of a bunch of bureaucrats in Washington.

Like typical liberal thinking, the author suggests that the local people in Utah would do a far poorer job of managing our own local resources and money than all the "smart" people in the federal government. I think just the opposite is true (like typical conservative thinking). We would do a far better job of making sure the system is run more effectively and efficiently.

I think the people of Utah (and the people of the whole US) can be far more productive and prosperous if the right systems are in place to encourage hard work and innovation instead of discouraging it through excessive taxes and regulation. Unfortunately, we are heading fast in the opposite direction under Obama.

one old man
Ogden, UT

No, Mountainman, it's you who are missing the point.

How about trying to learn WHY entitlement spending is increasing. Could it be because many Americans -- who have worked hard and paid taxes all their lives -- are now reaching retirement age and beginning to collect the Social Security they have PAID FOR all those years? Could it be that these same Americans -- who have worked hard and paid taxes all their lives -- are now receiving incomes that put them below the income tax threshold?

Could it be that many American workers are now out of work because of companies that shipped their jobs overseas?

Could it be that many Americans -- such as those working at WalMart -- are paid so little and kept on less than full time status that they have no choice but accept food stamps and Medicaid?

Could it be that many Americans -- such as those working at Hostess Brands -- have had to take pay cuts so the company executives could enjoy 300% pay increases?

Instead of simply regurgitating the conservative radio blabs, why not do some research and learn the REASONS why things are as they are?

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

I will leave this debate with a question for those of you who think the rest of us owes you a living; Who will fund your entitlements? The number of those who are paying for it are diminishing rapidly while those on the receiving end are growing exponentially! The Democrat's serious dilemma is who is going to pay your bills? Hunker down folks, its going to get rough!

custer
Boise, ID

No state should be forced to stay in the Union. What kind of Union would that be? How can we call ourselves the "United" States when we have to force states to remain. If the majority of people in a state want to seceed, let them go. They are not trying to destroy the United States, they simply want to form their own democratic nation. Our nation and Federal Govt are getting far too large anyway.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

From Washington's Farewell Address (in 3 parts):

Part 1

. . . it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

. . . Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations.

. . . Here every portion of our country finds the most commanding motives for carefully guarding and preserving the union of the whole.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Part 2

. . . With such powerful and obvious motives to union, affecting all parts of our country, while experience shall not have demonstrated its impracticability, there will always be reason to distrust the patriotism of those who in any quarter may endeavor to weaken its bands.

To the efficacy and permanency of your Union, a government for the whole is indispensable. No alliance, however strict, between the parts can be an adequate substitute; they must inevitably experience the infractions and interruptions which all alliances in all times have experienced. Sensible of this momentous truth, you have improved upon your first essay, by the adoption of a constitution of government better calculated than your former for an intimate union, and for the efficacious management of your common concerns.

. . . The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government.

All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

Part 3

They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests.

However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

Twin Lights here. I hope these quotes (authored by Washington with help from Madison and Hamilton) help to frame the debate. One thing I get out of this, is that there is nothing new here. The old debates are the current debates. We need to stand together.

Blue
Salt Lake City, UT

Mountanman, I have never once felt that anyone owed me a living.

What I do expect, however, is that all of my fellow citizens, including you, pay their fair share for the national infrastructure we all use.

I also expect, in fact I demand, that the meager pension and retirement savings I contribute to with every paycheck will be there for me when I retire.

I have been faithfully contributing to my Social Security account for over 30 years, and I expect the portion of that that I have been promised to be there for me when I retire. I will also expect that the portion of Social Security that _you_ are entitled to will be there for you, too. The social contract of American citizenship expects nothing less.

I am not owed a living, but we are all owed a level playing field, both in our economy and in our social policies.

The only thing I really feel "entitled" to is fairness. Yes, I know that life isn't fair, but for the sake of my children and grandchildren I'm working hard to make it so. You should be doing the same.

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

Redistribution, Redistribution.

We hear it over and over.

We hear how the wealthy's wealth is being confiscated and handed out to others less fortunate.

But, the reality is that the wealthy are getting more and more, uh, wealthy. They are continuing, at an accelerated pace, to accumulate more and more of this countries wealth. The disparity in this country is growing rapidly.

How can that be? I thought we were redistributing their wealth.

I guess the money is just not collecting at the top quick enough for some.

Those who wish to "redistribute" the wealth, are doing a pretty lousy job.

Does anyone think that the collection of wealth in the hands of so few is a good thing for this country?

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

I wish they would succeed. We'll give them Mississippi or Alabama. They can move, have their own utopia and let the realists run the United States. We can add Puerto Rico as the 50th State.

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