Clearly, we have a huge mess. What better suggestion do you have to offer? I am
not in favor of succession, but it is a legal way of registering a protest, and
is not indicative of adolescent behavior. Are you a sore winner?
Its not just silly, its unpatriotic.So much for the
Republican's claim to being the patriots.
Succession is a political statement, not a plan. When bush won there were some
who threatened to immigrate to Canada, etc. Most of the time the US would be
better off if these people got their wish.
Oh good grief.Succession: events happening after each other;
transfer of power; etc.Secession: separating from a union (confederacy,
federation, etc.).What is so hard about vowels? That speaks more
than any silly petition.
Excellent editorial. Well said. Thank you.
You know what makes it even more childish is over the past 30 years
Repbulicans/conservatives have pretty much had their way. Taxes have gone from
70% to 35%, passive income taxes have gone from 35% to 15%, Obamacare is a
Heritage foundation idea, and we have fought three wars. Now with the simple
suggestion that incomes over $250,000 pay an additional 3-4 percent, ruin has
set in. Traditional America is destroyed..bla,bla,bla.
It's being used to get the White house to address issues.
When the Founding Fathers realized England had no interest in working with them
for the good of England, they wrote, signed, and delivered the Declaration of
Independence. When they signed it, they did so as the duly chosen
representatives of the colonists, they knew the majority of the colonists
supported them, and they knew it was an act of treason and they were risking
their homes, their livelihoods, their families, and their lives. The
Founding Fathers are American patriots because they won and the United States
were formed. But they were traitors to England. Secession petitions
are petitions to no longer be Americans. They are jokes or attention getters.
They are serious business. And you should not sign one unless you really mean
it. Anything else is indeed silly.
I suspect that 99.9% of the people who sign secession petitions are just trying
to make a statement. If that's all it is, it's a legitimate exercise
of their 1st Amendment rights to freedom of expression, if not a particularly
intelligent exercise. Most of them will be back to vote in the next election.
I think the left is entirely missing the point on this issue! We are already
seeing a succession in America. Its the innovators, the investors, the taxpayers
and the capitol risk takers backing away, hunkering down and going into a
survival mode; thus a succession from Obamacare, Obamaclaus entitlements and
federal government mandates which we have no hope of paying for! The declining
stock market is one barometer of this massive succession, but there will be many
others! The states where this is talked about have no intention of leaving the
union, they are just trying to survive Obama for 4 more years by succeeding from
Obama's takeover of private property (massive taxes), state's rights
Sorry - my previous comment should say "not a joke."If there
are issues you would like the government to address, petition for those issues
to be addressed. Petitioning for secession is petitioning to forfeit your
Mountanman,I think that you are right. For MOST of the signers,
this is a political protest and not a serious bid for secession.But
secession is serious business and not something to be trifled with. If folks
want to protest, scream, and shout - they should. If they want to try again
next election and maybe even run themselves - they should. But unconstitutional
acts are not the way to save the constitution.If we do in fact love
the constitution, then we must stay within its bounds in order to preserve.
There is no other avenue. Doing things outside of the constitution inherently
damage our republic and the respect we should all have for the document that
The most important statements were made by the voters of the United States of
@Mountanman -- Call it what you want. Rationalize all you want. But truth to
tell, signing such a petition is unpatriotic, or at best, extremely childish.
Keep up the stunts and crazy rhetoric and then wonder why many people are afraid
to vote Republican. Actually trying to start a civil war is one of those things
most people think is nuts. Add that to legitimate rape, doubts about science,
the absolute surety that only white people want to work, the absolute surety
that people born in Hawaii are not US citizens, and on and on, and most people
are just turned off.
"At a time like this, we can't risk partisan bickering and political
posturing. Our leaders have to reach across the aisle to do the people's
work. And we citizens also have to rise to the occasion." and then Romney
followed with the only reason people voted for Obama is because he offered them
lavish giveaways. Hence why Romney is not president today."The
declining stock market is one barometer of this massive succession,"ummm - under Obama the stock market rose from the Bush low of 6,600 to
over 12,000... in 4 years. More selective cherry picking of facts to make some
kind of politically motivated rhetoric. The markets performance is a
documented fact - you can't selectively say this week it is Obama's
fault because it is down, but the over trend doubling in value in 4 years - he
gets no credit for that.This just points to the fact this is just
all emotionally driven talking points. Obama hasn't done everything
perfect. Hardly. But until we get conversations back to rational adult levels,
we will continue to see this over the top media driven hyperbolic pattern of
behavior. Stocks are up 162 today so far... meaning what?
@ Wm Gronberg: Voters in America voted for a continuation and increases of free
stuff from the government! Those fewer in number of Americans who are faced with
paying for it have been seriously disenfranchised. Even worse, Obama ran on a
"balance approach of cutting spending and higher taxes" to solving our
massive deficit and national debt. Now that he has been re-elected, all talk of
cutting spending have vanished and now the people who already pay nearly 80% of
all federal income taxes are faced with the impossible task of paying for it
all! Even if Obama taxed the "rich" 100%, it would only temporarily
bring in about $150 billion/for the first year. Not even considering any of the
other entitlements Obama wants to give away, Obamacare alone is forecast to cost
taxpayers $1.2 trillion/year! Anyone with a brain or a calculator can see that
this is not going to work at all!
yeah, let them protest. Nothing will come of this, other than putting your name
on a list for the NSA/CIA to look at. HEre is a list of potential domestic
terrorists is what they will see. Thank your local representative that gave
powers for the patriot act when this happens.
this movement is NOT about the election. It is about the executive orders
giving our US sovereignty to the UN, It's about NDAA, TSA... carbon
taxes, the federal reserve, federal raids on american factories who aren't
sending their jobs to china. ( see GIBSON GUITAR).It is short
sighted and petty to believe this movement is a bunch of sore losers. I knew MY
candidate didn't stand a chance. I was ready to amass an independence
movement when I realized the press was having a difficult time differentiating
the stands of the two major candidates.At what point will you get angry?
When they come to take YOUR kid away because he is too outspoken about his
contempt for NDAA allowing the army to arrest people without warrant or charge,
to be held indefinitely, possibly forever?We now have amerikan troops
patrolling our streets, illegally. Your fourth amendment is gone, your
FIRST amendment is gone.
Ranchhand"Its not just silly, its unpatriotic."I
guess the whole revolutionary war was unpatriotic seeing as how we seceeded from
Hurleyscope @ 9;50 am hit the nail right on the head. Listen to what he is
saying and not the race baiting mass media. I would've wanted to seceed
even if Romney won. The real reason for secession is the
TSA,NDAA,taxation,war,patriot act,war on drugs, and globalism.
@hurleyscope -- ???? Wow, this is the fringiest fringe comment I've seen
yet. Just where are these "amerikan" troops patrolling our
neighborhoods? You know the whole executive order thing is a hoax, right?
You've got to stop believing these emails you're getting my friend.
Signing a Secession is not a simple "protest" or "political
statement".It is just like walking into your boss and handling
him/her your letter of resignation.You better be willing stand
behind those words - because you've signed an official Federal document.And like be willing to defend it with YOUR own blood if necessary.BTW - I've sworn the oath to defend this nnation against ALL
enemies, foreign and domestic.I have - are you?
Midvalean"yeah, let them protest. Nothing will come of this,
other than putting your name on a list for the NSA/CIA to look at. HEre is a
list of potential domestic terrorists is what they will see. Thank your local
representative that gave powers for the patriot act when this happens."This is why secession makes even more sense. If people are treated as
terrorist for just sigining a petition and excercising their first amendment
right, we are no longer a free country.
But then I guess the first amendment is only applicable when it doesn't
hurt anybody's feelings. If you don't like something, don't sign
it, if you don't like what somebody is talking about, don't listen to
it. Petitions are totally legal. Any retaliation aginst someone excercising
their freedom of speech is what real treason is.
When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independacne and sent it to
King George - it not a simple "protest" or "political
statement".Meanwhile - All I can figure is that modern
Conservatives want another blood bath, loose, and expect the federal Government
to once again come in and give them "free stuff" in Government
re-Construction aid after the war.
@dwayne -- No, I disagree, it is unpatriotic. When someone says they want to
break away from the United States of America because they disagree with the
result of an election, I don't know how you can call it anything but
anti-American. Signing such a petition is protected by the First Amendment, but
that doesn't make it right. The patriotic thing to do is to try to win the
next election, or better yet, try to influence policy now -- i.e. follow the
Constitution you all claim to revere. Saying you want to break up the union is,
by any definition, unpatriotic (i.e. against the United States of America -- the
country we pledge allegiance to.) For people who claimed that anyone who
didn't support the Iraq War was unpatriotic, you all sure change the
definition of patriotism to suit your fancy, don't you?
I’ve been unhappy with the outcome of elections as often as happy. But no
election results ever undercut my commitment to our system government, imperfect
as it may be at times. Those trying to convince themselves that secession is
what’s called for don’t know what an arbitrary government really is.
People who lived in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or other oppressive
governments did know and would given all to live under a government like ours.
Dwayne,Patriotism is about our geographical location? Nothing about
our constitution and the republic built upon it? That is not how I have
understood our church leaders’ many statements on the constitution.Of course, in the days of Joseph Smith, it couldn’t have just been
a geographical location, because so much of what we now call the US was not part
of our nation then. No, a patriot is not simply about geography but about a
type of government – or so thought the original patriots. Had they
installed a king or a dictatorship would we call them patriots today (after all,
it’s the same geography)? I don’t think so.Maybe you do
not feel you are an American first. But I think most of us feel we are –
at least that the interests of the nation are more important than our individual
interests or those of our families. We can and do even sacrifice ourselves and
our family members to war when necessary to defend the republic.Anti
Bush-Obama,The first amendment is the right to speak. But there is
no right to secession. We settled that issue long ago.
If you knew your US History, you'd realize that there is one State that
reserved the right to seceed from the Union when they joined. That State
happens to be Texas. The way to assure that they will stay in the Union is to
do two things:1) Let them know that if they do indeed leave, all US
Property must be returned to the United States within 6 months, and2) Tell
them that keeping a balance of 50 States means they will be replaced by Puerto
The irony of the responses is quite funny. The liberals in years past have
complained that they were called unpatriotic if they didn't support wars,
Bush's tax cuts, or the Patiot Act. Now, when some people have declared
that they want to seceed, it is the liberals who are yelling and calling them
unpatriotic.Tell us liberals, if you hated being called unpatriotic
because of your disagreements with Bush's policies, why is it ok for you to
call these people unpatriotic because of their disagreements with Obama? That
sure looks a lot like massive hypocrisy from my point of view. You claim to be
the party of "live and let live", yet you go out of your way to mock and
scorn these people.
Dwayne,Then perhaps the views of Washington might sway you (from his
Farewell Address to which Hamilton and Madison also contributed – a pretty
good set of patriots):Part 1“The unity of
government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is
justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the
support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your
prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to
foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will
be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this
truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the
batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively
(though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that
you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your
collective and individual happiness; “
Part 2“that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and
immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as
of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its
preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a
suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon
the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from
the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various
parts.For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest.
Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to
concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your
national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any
appellation derived from local discriminations.”
these secession petitions are nothing more and nothing less than a statement by
a very angry, disillusioned and frustrated people. Of course we aren't
going to allow secession however these petitions represent a mood of millions in
the country stating that they are sick and tired of being drug down by the lazy,
non-producers who don't work and don't want to work because they have
a permanent welfare check from Uncle Sam. People simply would rather split away
than have to watch their country disintegrate as Greece and other socialist
countries have and all due to the boat anchor of the Obama voting block - the
non tax payers, non producers and basically lazy leeches that comprise the bulk
of the Democrat base. This is NOT a race issue - this is an issue where more
than 50% of this country have sunk into being a HUGE drag on the rest of working
and tax paying Americans and we are SICK of carrying these people. We have an
obligation to take care of those that can't take care of themselves - no
question but that isn't the issue here.
RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTell us liberals, if you hated being
called unpatriotic because of your disagreements with Bush's policies, why
is it ok for you to call these people unpatriotic because of their disagreements
with Obama? ============= The difference RedShirt?Seriously -- OK -- We NEVER signed petions of Secession,We
respected the Constitution and sat down, shut-up and accepted the lame fact that
GW Bush LOST the popular vote, but won the Electoral by a few hanging chads in
Florida.We never tried to Ammend the Consitition after not getting our
way, We protested the Wars, but NEVER started any.We may have
disagree with Pres. Cheney and his little buddy, but we NEVER played Amnerican
Obstuctionist during the Bush years.Win or Loose, Rain or
Shine, Only goes to show who the REAL Patriots to America have been all
along.I lost - I'm taking my marbles and going home.Playground hypocrites you might say.
To "LDS Liberal" so basically, you are saying that it is ok to be a
hypocrite because the seccesionists do not agree with you.What do
you mean liberals never tried to Ammend teh constitution? It was liberals who
gave us the Prohibition ammendments.Liberals never accepted Bush
wining in 2000, hence the many articles and complaints about Bush stealing the
election through a biased Supreme court.Liberals started the war in
Egypt, people like Soros fueled the fires that lead to the uprisings. You also
forget that Obama spent millions of dollars on US aircraft to fly over Libya,
and is sending arms to Syria. Then there is Clinton's Balkan military
action.Democrats intentionally obstructed Bush. See the Washington
Post article "Democrats Are United in Plans To Block Top Bush
Initiatives".I am glad to see that you admit to being a
hypocrite, that is the most truthful thing you have stated today.
Like I said before, these people are free to say what they want. I believe in
the First Amendment. But don't pretend to me that the signers of these
petitions are patriotic Americans. They are not. (Yeah, it is funny that now
"liberals" are saying that people are unpatriotic. Thing is, advocating
the dissolution of the country actually IS unpatriotic. I don't think that
everyone who disagrees with me about policy or the role of government is
unpatriotic. I do think that threatening a civil war is unpatriotic.)
@RanchHand"Its not just silly, its unpatriotic."So, are you saying our founding fathers were unpatriotic when they petitioned
to secede from Britain to create this nation?? Or more currently Scotland
wanting to secede from Britain??The Declaration of Independence
clearly states, "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government
becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to
abolish it, and to institute new Government,"These petitions are
a statement more than anything else, stating they are unsatisfied with our
current government and path it’s on and to me, there is nothing more
patriotic. They are legally petitioning the government, which they have every
right to do, so now that’s unpatriotic as well? I’m
apathetic about it but at least they are being peaceful, unlike Occupy Wall
Street protesters, which cost cities millions of dollars in resources and
damages. This is peaceful and it’s picking up momentum, which is kind of
hard to ignore. I am curious to see how it pans out.
Red Shirt -- you have forgotten, again, that it was LIBERALS who rebelled
against English rule. It was LIBERALS who wrote the Declaration of
Independence. It was LIBERALS who wrote the Constitution.Going back
farther into history, Martin Luther was a LIBERAL who, by rebelling against the
established church, paved the way for foundation of the LDS faith.It
was Galileo who was LIBERAL enough to defy those who believed the earth was the
center of the universe.It was a LIBERAL Abraham Lincoln who pushed
the 13th Amendment through.It was probably even a LIBERAL caveman
who brewed up enough courage to try to start using fire.So you see,
without all those pesky LIBERALS, we'd still be living in the stone age,
eating raw meat, and singing God Save the Queen.
Its only "patriotic" if you agree with liberals! All others are
After quoting Jefferson, one poster wrote..."We arent Americans
first. That kind of attitude is fascism. We are individuals first, families next
and last of all we are Americans."Wow! Can you imagine had our
founding fathers had this "whats in it for me" attitude when they put
their very lives on the line trying to do something that was a people as a whole
- not just silly self interest. Can you imagine what those young men buried in
foreign lands protecting not only American rights, but the dignity of oppressed
people around the world would think of a statement like this. Image had the
pioneers, who often buried their tired, old, weak, and children along lonely
paths crossing the plains had this same attitude.We now have
generations who think the world evolved around them - that doing things for the
greater good, for country, for faith, for doing just what is right - is
subservient to their own wishes and needs. These are they who think sacrificing
for neighbor, country or faith is a sign of weakness, and unconstitutional. It is these attitudes that make me fear for future generations.... not
some political hyped up rhetoric.
I wish they would succeed. We will give them Mississippi. They can take their
share of the debt. The US can add Puerto Rico as the 50th state. Please
angry racists, succeed. Leave the Union. We'll be much better off.
Earnest T. Bass; Racist? Really? What a ridiculous accusation! And by the way,
no you won't be better off. Who do you think is paying the majority of
taxes? You 47% aren't paying any federal income taxes!
To "one old man" the people you mention were classical liberals, which
are not to be confused with todays modern liberals.Those people that
were liberals for their day would be called conservatives today.
Red, I challenge you to PROVE that there really is a difference between what you
call "classic" liberals and those of us today.
Hurleyscope, Anti Bush-Obama, and dwayne (as well as some others who have posted
here) really need to read "The Man Without A Country" by Edward Everett
Hale, then think long and hard about the consequences of their advocacy of
abandoning the United States of America through secession.
Ernest T. Bass"Please angry racists..."I would
love for you to explain how being unsatisfied with the government is racist?
Why is it that if people are critical of the government, they are now racist??
This makes no sense in my head for racism means there is hatred based on race,
not the hatred of one’s government!!So please, enlighten me...
Many of the new secessionists are tea partiers who are disillusioned with their
movement's attempt to join forces with the GOP.Many of these
people are just angry. Angry that minorities are getting more clout, angry that
Obama was re-elected, angry that they had to submit to Romney's hard turn
to the left, and all the money spent on getting rid of Obama was for naught.I say we grant them some islands in the Aleutian chain, and let Sarah
Palin be their queen. Who knows, maybe they'll want to name their new
nation after freedom or liberty, maybe they'll call it "Liberia",
and when they find out the next morning there's already a nation with that
name, they can form an armada to sail to Africa and defeat the imposters, fair
4th and final comment and I'm done --- Satan and his followers
were not cast out for their "Liberal" "Socialist" plan.They were cast out for REBELLION.i.e, Sour Grapes.
To "one old man" here goes:According to "What Is
Classical Liberalism?" at NCPA, "The Rise, Decline, and Reemergence of
Classical Liberalism" at Belmont University, and the definition of Liberal
in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy classical liberalism is often
associated with extreme forms of libertarianism. Libertarians are the opposite
of modern liberals.Again from Stanford (and others), we learn that
the New (or modern) liberalism is a government controlled system. Sources,
other than Stanford, explain how liberalism depends on the government to right
all wrong and depends on it to create a mixed economy (socialism and
capitalism).To "LDS Liberal" yes Satan was cast out because
of Rebellion, but look at the plan that he was proposing to replace God's
plan. Under Socialism, not one person will fail and all will be saved. That is
the exact same thing that Satan proposed. God rejected socialism as an
alternate to his plan, yet you and your ilk want it.
"Under Socialism, not one person will fail and all will be saved. That is
the exact same thing that Satan proposed. God rejected socialism as an alternate
to his plan, yet you and your ilk want it."Really? No one will
fail? Good to know. Must send a memo to all those failing countries around
the world that are socialist that they have no need to fear - there are no poor
or needy among them.Satan's plan was to force everyone to do
the right thing. There was to be no free agency, no options to choose right or
wrong. It didn't specify equality of opportunity or anything of the
like... I would love to see the scriptures your are referring to that claim that
was a goal of his plan.On the other hand, it just isn't that
hard to find scriptures that talk about people coming together so that
"there was not poor among them".... or that talk about those that loose
their lives in service of others, gain eternal life.Some of us
actually believe that "we the people" have a responsibility to one
another, and to society as a whole.
Ernest T. Bass---Question: have you ever lived in Mississippi? What
if they said "We'll give them Utah?" Why are you ragging on them?
Yes, I have lived in that State in three different cities. Jackson looked a lot
like Salt Lake City at the time. And I know some great people who call
Mississippi home.Read my above post to see who can legally seceed
from the Union and you won't have to be making such senseless statements
about which property to so willingly cut loose.
re:Ernest T. BassErnest, it is the "producers" that want to
leave and not the other way around. Get it?? The producers are tired of carrying
the 50% of takers that don't work and don't want to work.. oh and
don't pay any taxes either but want the producers to pay more so they can
continue to do even less. Remember the woman from Cleveland screaming "I got
my Obama phone"?? Yes this is the poster child of what we want to leave
behind - or lop it off - what ever you want to call it. The Obama base of
welfare rabble can go ahead and try their socialism and we will stick with
capitalism and our constitution and then after 10 years we will see who is
sinking in the mud and who is booming. Any guesses? Hint: take a long hard look
re:LDS LiberalWhich most closely mirrors what we as Latter Day
Saints believe....A. Hard Work - ambition - paying your own way -
helping those who CAN'T help themselves and the words of JFK "ask not
what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country"B. No work - no paying taxes - no ambition - living off entitlements -
and the words of Barack Obama "ask not what you can do for your country but
what your government and your neighbor will give to you for free!!". Hint: the word deseret or "honey bee" should help you
to RedShirt Nov. 19How many times must you be corrected? Classical
liberals then are Libertarians now. T Jefferson was a classical liberal.As Larry Elder once said, "The difference between Libertarians &
the GOP is wide; between Dems & Libertarians is massive."
Lds lib. I enjoy reading your short, pithy comments but the word, which
you've appropriately used, but misspelled, several times the last few
weeks, is lose, not loose.
I suppose most of the signatories consider themselves patriots, and some them of
may even support or be members of militias. That's scary.
Patriot.... very nice post there.... but the problem is no one ... repeat... no
one is promoting option B.. Obama has never once said, implied, or made any
reference to any of the things you suppose he has pushed forward.Lets be perfectly clear here - we, as a society, country, business owners,
people who pay for insurance were already paying the bill for the uninsured.
These cost were being passed on by the medical delivery system as a built in
cost to them providing the services they provide. There was no magic well of
money paying for these services - that if you will recall - were mandated in
legislation Ronald Reagan promoted in the 80's. Everyone in this country
already had the right to medical care - al be it through the emergency room door
which is the least effective way of delivering services.What
Romneycare and ObamaCare did was to acknowledge those cost, and force a
mechanism that employers who didn't want to provide basic health insurance
would be compelled to do so - or the states would have to provide a way for
individuals to BUY there own. Call it Socialism - but it was acknowledgement of
what was already going on.
If DN thinks secession is such a silly thing, why did it give coverage for the
idea just last week, accompanied by a picture of flag-carrying Boy Scouts?
"600,000 sign petitions", or something close to that. I guess DN want it
Utah didn't bend over backwards for statehood just so a bunch of
yahoo's could throw it all away.
Secession is not really the issue; having to abide unconstitutional assaults
upon our freedom is! But we DO have a remedy much better than feeble threats of
secession: NULLIFICATION! This is our right as a State and as a Community to
declare, unilaterally, that we believe a law or statute put out by the Feds,
will NOT be recognized nor enforced within our boundaries. This is our right
under the 10th amendment to the Constitution. And TPTB (the feds and their
backers) are truly and rightfully concerned about it. Visit
http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/ for a good overview of how Nullification works.
We have already traveled down this path as a State in some areas. Many other
states are realizing their powers under this concept. Visit the TAC often and
join in this movement to recover our rights! http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/
Take it from a proud son of Virginia and descendant of Confederate soldiers --
secession is a non-starter. This issue was decisively decided in 1865. You lose an election and the first thing that crosses your minds is
secession from the Union? You think it's patriotism not to seek compromise
with people who disagree with you? You think that the Founding Fathers
aren't rolling in their graves when you mine them for quotes to support
positions they *never* would have agreed with? Don't wrap
yourself in my American flag in your quest for self-aggrandizing martyrdom. I
take my oath to protect and defend the Constitution from its enemies --foreign
and domestic-- very seriously.
one old man,"Red, I challenge you to PROVE that there really is
a difference between what you call "classic" liberals and those of us
today."There is a huge difference between a classical liberal
and progressive liberals of today. A classical liberal believed in
individualism, liberty and limited government. Jefferson who is well
understood to be the direct founder of the Democratic Party of today has
migrated so far from his philosophy that it's unrecognizable as
Jeffersonian. It might upset liberals of today but our founding fathers
weren't liberals or conservatives in this modern sense but even if you
don't want to accept Tom Jefferson as the archetypal classical liberal you
have to accept Locke was since it's his philosophy our founding fathers
relied upon when they revolted against Great Britain. It is that philosophy that
is so repugnant to liberals today who find more in common with Rousseau and
other totalitarians who feel a greater will of society prevails over the
individual. The only substantial philosophy that modern liberals come close to
sharing with classical liberals is foreign policy but unlike classical liberals
who emphasized economic relations liberals of today emphasize government
I don't agree with this latest secessionist movement. However, I do take
issue with some of the comments here.To all those demeaning the
secessionists:What y'all are saying has been said before. When
voting against secession just prior to the Civil War, one of Texas' own
state delegates summed it up quite nicely. "When the rabble
hiss, well may patriots tremble."James Webb Throckmorton, 1861Nevertheless, Throckmorton rose up and fought for Texas and the CSA.Why did he do that? Because... after all the hissing and
rabbling... when all is said and done...“Secession is an
American principle."-Ron Paul, 2009 Res Novae says:"You think that the Founding Fathers aren't rolling in their graves
when you mine them for quotes to support positions they *never* would have
agreed with?"I would like to point out that the very Founding
Fathers you mention authored and signed a document called "The Declaration
of Independence." FYI, that document is a big ole chunk of secession. Could
it perhaps be YOU who is trying to dictate what the Founding Fathers believed
more than the others? For me, their signatures speak for themselves.
Teleste, context is everything. The men who signed the Declaration of
Independence were His Majesties subjects without the full rights of citizenship
that their cousins in Britain held. The political entities they lived in were
13 distant colonies subject to the Crown's royal charters, not in Great
Britain itself. That's hardly parallel to the conditions in this country
today, where secessionists have full rights of citizenship and live states that
are clearly part of the "mother country" of the United States of
America. The Founding Fathers asserted their natural political
rights. Having inherited rights that the Founding Fathers sacrificed for them,
secessionists are simply quitters throwing a temper tantrum because they lost an
election. I don't think I am trying to dictate anything, the
Founding Fathers speak for themselves without self-proclaimed "patriots"
ripping their words out of context to support their partisan positions today. I
stand by my statement above.
"If we do in fact love the constitution, then we must stay within its bounds
in order to preserve. There is no other avenue."If we do in fact
love the constitution, then maybe the only way is secussion. That's how
the founding fathers saw it. That's why we have a constitution.
That's why we have a United States of America."But when a
long train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object,
evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it
is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their
future Security."POTUS is doing all he can to destroy the
constitution and all it guarantees We the People. Perhaps the secussionists (of
which I am not) see things as the founding father did and can rationalize no
other way. If POTUS continues the path he is treading, it might become
necessary to invoke the D of I.
While I think the secession movements are silly and ultimately fruitless, the
fact that some of them are somewhat large (like Texas where one third of those
polled wanted to leave the union) is also troubling. Laughing at this discontent
and disconnect is done at our own peril...
There is a reference after the quote I throw up here in the Declaration that
"Prudence" or caution should be used in throwing off government for such
"light and transient causes. But the quote before this says it all. And
ultimately whether any state is in the mother country or whether we are
"citizens" as hurleyscope implied does not take away per se from this
charge as written by Jefferson which goes:"That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the
People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them
shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...In
fact Jefferson says later in the Declaration it not only our right to throw off
such government but it is our DUTY (emphasis mine).Now again, I
think most people are overreacting. The founding fathers did everything
imaginable to work within the system for change before the Declaration. Those
honest opposers I feel must do the same. We are not at the point where
secession is any solution.
Just day dreaming here for a minute but wouldn't it be cool if Texas and
the rest of the capitalist / constitutional / freedom believing states could
actually leave New York and the rest of the Marxist / Socialist states. Let
Barack lead his socialist rabble and then drain the swamp and start fresh with
the rest. No Barack Obama or Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi or Maxine Waters .... no
Hollywood communists and no more state controlled media. I guarantee it
wouldn't take long before the Wallstreet companies moved to Houston along
with every other business that wanted to actually stay in business!! Barack
could give out free Obama phones every Christmas - I mean winter Holiday (sorry)
- until the money ran out.
Interesting that so many call this a silly initiative. Although I never signed
one of the petitions and feel it is probably a fruitless show of displeasure
with the outcome of the elections, I sympathize with those doing the signing.
As this country is controlled more and more by "redistribution of wealth
Democrats" this silly idea is going to take hold like a wildfire and the
"silliness" of working people's displeasure will find it's way
to the streets. Eventhough I am getting along in years, I would be out there
causing as much anarchy as I could to bring such a freeloading Government down.
So go ahead and keep thinking the idea is silliness.