Re:very concernedI truely appreciated your thoughtful and civil responses
to the questions I posed.
I was amazed at David Banack's statement that President Obama showed
"restraint" in not bringing up Romney's Mormonism during the
campaign.I don't think Banack has a very realistic perception
of Obama (perhaps because Banack is on the other side politically?).I can't in a million years imagine Obama bringing up someone's
religion as a negative factor (i.e., "why you should vote for *me*
instead"). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall hearing any
Democrat portraying Romney's Mormonism as a negative.No, that
seems to have been strictly in the Republican camp--specifically, many
evangelicals. They finally "accepted" Romney's Mormonism because
of their "anyone but Obama" desire.If I were the Mormon
Church, I wouldn't bask too much in the "acceptance" of a lot of
the people who once castigated the Church. I suspect that many of them will
return to their same theological castigation now that their "acceptable"
JParkerfan - really.... there were no gifts being offered byt he other side.
No tax breaks for all. No tax elimination for people who like Romney make 100
percent of their income off of long term capital gains. Yes, there are fewer
millionaires out there than people who make normal incomes. This
whole blaming the other side for ones own loss, rather than taking
responsibility for not articulating a plan that people could follow is a sure
sign of lack of leadership. That is what leaders do - they lead people to do
the "hard" thing. Anyone can do the easy thing - no leadership
required. Romney failed to inspire people to do the hard thing... and so he
lost. Plain and simple. The buck stops there.It was a great
experience for the church. My son serves in a former soviet block nation as a
missionary. People wanted to know more. He had lots of discussions about the
church because of it.But I am glad he lost, because politics is an
ugly business, and the church doesn't need that kind of stain on it. You
look at how LDS people talk about their fellow brothers and sisters here
With romney's defeat, the LDS Church definitely won. Thanfully Romney will
not be a visible "represenetative" of the Church (granted, if he had
been elected President, he would not be an OFFICIAL representative o the Church
but he would have been held up as an example). The dishonesty and lack of truth
found in Romney's campaign, and in his life, is NOT what the Church is all
@byufan1993Thank you@atl134 abd Pragmatist The
"Repiblicans are racist" meme is merely your brand of race baiting you ascribe intolerance to others in order to rationalize your own(why
dont you consider Obama racist because white Sandy victims have been critical of
his response? oh yea - its a one way street)
Romney's "gifts" comments were spot on and 100% accurate. That is
how BHO won the election. (along with running the dirtiest campaign in
history). Anyone " running away" from those comments is just trying to
be a good politician. We need more people to tell us the truth and not be
afraid of the political correctness crowd.
as it relates to pragmatistferlife....you mean we should talk to the
51% on welfare that were promised lots of help and given free phones and
more?you mean we should talk to the 51% that were promised Gay Marriage
would be fought and NOW backed off from?you mean we should talk to the 51%
that are the only Ding Dong's left in the US after Hostess' BK
today?you mean we should talk to the 51% that don't pay taxes (did
you know it is almost that much and we have to make up for them)?you mean
we should talk to the 51% that are now going to be waiting in line to die @ the
hospital? (i have lived in 2 socialist countries for many years and have seen it
first hand)!!!Yep..those are the smart ones....the 51%We
now live in the USSR even more than ever...you know the 51% that want the United
States Socialist Republic to come to pass
I think Mitt Romney and his family did a great service not only the the Mormon
church but to all of us. As a professional woman in a male dominated field I
heard many, many positive comments about Mitt Romney and the strong moral and
family values that he demonstrated. Again and again I would hear what a good
man he is and many would comment about something new they had learned about our
church. now that the election is over I am sad that Mitt was not elected
but I chose to be positive and will continue to try and be a good citizen and
neighbor to all. May God bless the United States and each one of us who
believes and supports this wonderful country.
To pragmatistferlife: By your comments it seemed you were watching with your
eyes and ears closed because Mitt Romney never said or did anything that was
dishonest. As far as Harry Reid your comments would match him perfectly. I
don't understand why the public is so intimidated by the truth and a good
man like Mitt. We believe in God and His son Jesus Christ who atoned for our
sins. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strive to be
morally clean, truthful, kind, caring and willing to help others. We have a
testimony of what truly is the TRUTH. There is always a solid reason why things
in life do not turn out the way we wanted them, sometimes it is not the Lords
I'm going to go ahead and say the vast majority of Americans still think
it's totally weird.
Very concerned: It took me a long time to embrace a plausible reality. While the
BYU football team would like to win every game it plays and all the accolades
that would come with an 'earned' championship that is not their number
one priority. Their priority is to represent in a positive light the religion
that runs the university. Wins will come to those who do things right. Sure, we
may not play the toughest schedule, but neither do those affiliated with
conferences. I'm sorry but if they were all that teams roof to cellar would
be over .500. During the coaches show with Bronco on Sunday I could finally see,
through the reaction to the brawlers that there really is more of a push to be
different and visible than to win with run of the mill students that are spit
images of other campuses. It is fundamentally crass to think that the BYU
football team will ever go away for as long as the sport is upon this landscape
known as the US of A.
Amen Truth! Let's just hope that people outside of Nevada will forget about
his religious affiliation! Nevadans won't, but they are hardly a threat to
As a person that was born and lived most of my life in the United States and now
holds dual citizensip with Australia I am very aware of the tax exempt status,
it exsits in both countries. As you probably know the LDS Church remains
neutral in all elections. Yes there are issues that effect what we believe in
and when those issues come up we like every other church and organizations have
a right an duty to let our feels known be known. That is why we have the
legislative branch of government, they are suppose to represent the will of the
people. Like every other church and organization we lobby for our ideals. You
can not seperate peoples beliefs from politics.
Religion has no place in politics. Churches should always lose elections.
I believe this election was decided on the basis of policies and leadership not
religion or race. For that reason I think we all won.
SLMGTrue, but what I'm talking about is a religious
organization taking an official position, and making that position clear to
it's members with the intent of influencing political outcomes. In the US,
this action alone is enough for that religious organization to lose it's
tax exempt status.
The Billy Graham Association only took Mormonism off their cult list as a
strategy to get Obama out! don't fool yourselves! Mormonism will never be
embraced by the "true church" which consists of a world wide group
of bible believing born again followers of Jesus Christ, also known as the body
of Christ...The true Christian is indwelt by the Lord Jesus (John 14:23)
through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Christian church is figuratively said
to be the body of Christ. Rom. 12:5, "So we, who are many,
are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."
Eph. 4:12, "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the
building up of the body of Christ."
bobdc6park city, UTThe world would be a better place if
organized religion would stay out of politics.That would be very
hard since almost every member of government anywhere in the world is a member
of some sort of organized religion. Peoples values are based on their beliefs
so that is part of what they look for in their political leaders. Religion is
part of the political landscape but should never be the entire focus.
Well, I can tell you who didn't win in this election. The entire middle
class. All the middle class people who voted for Obama are in for a rude
awakening. Better tighten your belts. Most the rich will probably have enough
money to soften the blow if they are smart with their money. However they are
going to have a lot less of it by 2016. The poor will remain poor. The middle
class are going to get absolutely clobbered.
The DN message board provides evidence that there's still plenty of road
ahead!(-;In places where the LDS Church is prevalent, I
believe it's probably more challenging, because:1) the population in
general is more likely to know the tenets of the Church, and eager to point out
any deviations2) more Mormons = more BAD Mormons. (There are bad
Christians, bad Muslims, bad Mormons - they all give their religion a black
eye!)3) People are afraid, rightfully or not, of the influence wielded by
the Mormon bloc.The best thing we can do is PROVE by our actions -
loving our God and our fellow men - that we are Christian in every sense of the
word. Keep the faith, brothers and sisters!
Always amusing to see the "intolerance" expressed here by the same short
list of people.Especially those who live in another state, but search
articles on the DN.Must be a boring way to spend your day.The
LDS church is so far past the boring white Utah male that someone tried to
attach to the church's image the other day on here.I attend a Spanish
ward here in Phoenix.There are other Spanish wards that meet nearby.The church has become so diverse and blended and I love seeing proof of that
with new temples being built in other countries.
@tabuno,I understand you are just reiterating the conceptions of
many about Mormons, however I resent those misconceptions. As a
missionary in Africa, I spent nearly all my time among the extremely poor,
black, people, many whose homes were smaller than most people's walk in
closets. These people embraced the teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Days Saints and were flocking into the chapels. I also saw many local
clergymen (ie Bishops, Stake Presidents) were black. The only money
they are asked to give is 10% of their income, same as every member, all of
which goes to maintaining and building places of worship, helping others, or
furthering the message of Christ. None of that money goes to personal gain. The LDS Church takes the gospel to every country it possibly can to
further the gospel, no matter what gender, race, or social status. If only the
rest of America could see that this is a global Church dedicated to blessing the
lives of EVERYONE
Ok follow me now Counter..I said..his reputation didn't do the Mormons any
good. No where did I say, or insinuate, that because someone considered Romney
dishonest that meant they considered all mormons dishonest. It simply means it
doesn't do the mormon church any good (the point the article was trying to
make) when a member of such high profile is seen as not posessing or portraying
the principles the church professes. I would also ask you to provide specific
evidence that Romney voters don't transfer their negative feelings about
Obma to the entire Black community. I would suggest..as long as your
suggesting..that the Romney voters do in fact transfer their negative
impressions of Obama to the entire Democratic community.
@ Patriot: You wrote: " Darn conservative extremists anyway - always
looking to scare folks"For the first time we are in agreement :)We say that Obama won with a 51% of the vote. Chances are that with the
state of the economy, a more credible Republican candidate could have won by a
wide margin.People trusted President Obama, the majority of the
people support the end of Don't ask don't tell, droping the Defense of
Marriage Act, of course, the Health Care Plan, a higher tax for those who
extract higher benefits from society, increase revenue to reduce the deficit,
and in general President Obama is perceived as a decent and caring human
being.Yes, I do agree with the headline, I do believe the LDS Church
was one of the winners in this election. But, I believe the nation as a whole
came out ahead.
Not so fast. Remember who the president is - Barack Obama the socialist. Now in
most socialist countries around the world freedom of religion is frowned upon
and in all communist countries it is banned. Let's project a few years down
the road in the direction America is headed now - the socialist road. I can see
a day where our freedom of religion is gone in this country - in the name of
fairness of course and not to offend anyone - and things like tax exemption
status and banning homosexual marriage and abortion etc... for the LDS church
will be gone. This is just a tid bit for those who care to look ahead a bit. Oh
yes I know - America will never abandon freedom of religion or the right to bare
arms and America would never ever elect a socialist president either. Darn
conservative extremists anyway - always looking to scare folks.
@Jared"it successfully painted him as dishonest (he's
not)"Romney said timetables are wrong to give to the enemy. At
the foreign policy debate he proposed a 2014 withdrawal, agreeing with the
president on the timetable.Romney told Huckabee he'd support
the personhood amendment and would support a ban on all abortions no exceptions.
He later reverted to the standard three exceptions position.Romney
said his tax plan (20% cuts across the board) would be paid for by closing
loopholes in such a way that the middle class wouldn't see a tax hike, nor
the rich would see a cut. That's mathematically impossible."elitist (he's not)"Nah, just thinks that 47% of
people don't want to take personal responsibility for their lives because
they don't happen to be in a position where they are paying income taxes
and reiterated it by suggesting Obama won because he was handing gifts out (and
a 20% across the board tax cut isn't a gift?).
I agree Tiger 5Life's to busy for these forums.See ya
I am a LDS member, a registered Democrat, and an Obama supporter. Romney's
campaign provided the opportunity for me in countless conversations with friends
and associates to explain the principles of my religion and to dispel the notion
that the orientation of LDS people to the Republican party is an extension of
their religious tenants. I think it has more to do with a history of insularity
and geography. In my travels around the world, I have found LDS who live in
concentrated urban areas to be more liberal in their political orientation. I
suspect over time, as this segment of the church grows, that church members will
be more diverse in their political affiliations. Reverting back to the topic at
hand, however, kudos for Romney and for other LDS members who enter the public
arena, no matter one's politics.
@germanygator"I am very pleased that there was so much support across
the Southern "Bible Belt" for Romney. We didn't really see that in
2008 when Huckabee and Romney were running against each other. "You're comparing a primary to the general though. Do they really like
Romney or just begrudgingly voted for him because the other main choice was
Obama? Romney had a three-way slugfest in Alabama and Misssissippi with two
Huckabees (Santorum and Gingrich).@CounterIntelligence"But
they don't transfer those feelings to the entire black community"I disagree. There are a lot of conservatives who take statements like
Romney's about Obama giving "gifts" (says the guy who offered a 20%
across the board tax cut) and his statements about the 47% not wanting to take
personal responsibility, and Gingrich and Santorum's statements about
welfare and ascribe that to the black community. Thinking they just want
handouts and are lazy. Consider how they view Katrina victims.
@ SS"And why would Romney's comments show that the LDS Church is
more focused on profit, money, and white males?"Many people that
aren't familiar with the LDS church would associate their views of Romney
(that he's out of touch and only cares about rich people) and ascribe that
view to the LDS church. Don't forget, people don't like the idea of
tithing being required for temple access and many have issues with an all-male
priesthood. This'd be like how Prop 8 increased church standing
to conservatives and evangelicals, but rapidly dropped it among liberals and the
increasing percentage of people who support same-sex marriage. I had plenty of
friends out east who were neutral to the church before Prop 8 but held strongly
negative views of it afterwards (which was a bit awkward since I was LDS at the
time though of course I opposed Prop 8 so I faced no backlash from people
outside the church, all the attacks directed at me came from members)."Was JFK the face of Catholics?"There are many more
Catholics than there are LDS members. Out east the most prominent LDS members
are Romney and Glenn Beck.
Let it fly!I think I have come to another decision as well.I think I
will leave these comment areas for good. There seems to be a certain attitude
building in these things, that really is unhealthy.Extreme views on both
sides of the isle.Good luck all!
I don't think that Mitt Romney is a model or a light that the LDS people
want illuminating to the world. Actually the name that they should be
illuminating is the middle of the Church's logo, Jesus Christ. Romney is
flawed, like all of us and it is easy to see the flaws especially in others.
What LDS members of the Church need to do is to focus on living a Christ
centered life and let that light, that example speak of itself. Besides doing
ward callings get out and volunteer in the community at a homeless shelter or at
another program or institute that could use you. Volunteer to help kids read at
a school. Bottom line, the LDS people do a wonderful job at service and that and
Christ should be the light that they hold up, not a man. It is unfair to Romney
and unfair to the Church to hold a mere mortal man as an example. Too bad we
can't get someone flawed, who has overcome real problems to run.
They'd be like the rest of us are in reality.
There was a prophecy about a stone rolling forth to fill the earth - that stone
is rolling forth. (Note: filling the earth isn't as much about numbers as
it is about presence and influence). No unhallowed hand can stop the work from
progressing.pragmatistferlife's comment is interesting given
the choice of screen name. Romney is the paragon of pragmatism (he's a true
centrist candidate; yes, right of center but still centrist. Centrist candidates
are always blasted by people with more ideological beliefs). The fact that
"51%...didn't vote for Romney [because they] thought he was dishonest,
elitist, and had no moral center except to obey the teachings of his
religion" goes to show that Pres. Obama's campaign against Romney was
successful - it successfully painted him as dishonest (he's not), elitist
(he's not), and has no moral center (that's not true - faith, family,
service, doing good are all part of his moral core).If Romney had
won, it would have helped the LDS Church; because he lost, it helped the Church.
What helps the Church is not always apparent in the short-term. The Church is
about eternal progression and works on eternal timelines.
I would want no association with the likes of Romney.He lost because the
majority didn't believe him....for some reason.
@IMAN*Is the LDS church main concern "winning"? Is faith a
game to the LDS church?*Respectfully, I say no to both questions.
What The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints wants to *win* is
conversion of people to the gospel of Jesus Christ, the only thing that will
truly save us and bring us lasting happiness. I imagine there are some, as in
any religion, who focus too much on material things.But the church
itself uses its money to help its members (and others) and teaches us to do the
same. It also teaches self-reliance, staying out of debt, paying tithing (a
great blessing to those who do), being prepared for the unexpected, etc. THESE
are some of the things the church teaches about material issues.And
no, faith is definitely not a game to the church. It may be so with some
individual members, but they - along with everyone else - will eventually have
experiences that will try and test their faith to its limits. Faith in Jesus
Christ is a central doctrine of the church. It is the essence of the gospel and
What is strange about all of this talk is the complete absence of any discussion
on Mormon theology. In other words, sure Mormon's are on the map now in a
way that is different than any time before. But...are people in the mainstream
embracing The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine & Covenants, The Pearl of Great
Price, the First Vision, the Apostasy and Restoration, the Priesthood, Modern
Prophets & Apostles, literal Prophetic revelation, The Three Degrees of
Glory, Celestial Marriage, etc, etc, etc, the same way they are mainstreaming
the people and culture of Mormonism generically? Of course not!Can Mormonism capitalize on this new acceptance without also addressing
it's theological fundamentals?Me thinks not!
Counter IntelligenceI like you.... You ever do debate? :P
@pragmatistferlife"Talk to the 51% who didn't vote for
Romney who thought he was dishonest, elitist, and had no moral center except to
obey the teachings of his religion. Chances are that reputation didn't do
Mormons any good at all"%49 did not vote for Obama; many of
those also find Obama to be condescending, hypocritical, patronizing, dishonest,
manipulative, passive/aggressive, amateur, class/race/gender warfare sponsoring,
incompetent and just plain mean. But they don't transfer those feelings
to the entire black community like you suggest Obama voters do to the Mormon
community (which I am not a part of). SO apparently Romney voters are more
tolerant than Obama voters.
bobdc6Okay then that's fine if you say all organized religion
should. I agree with that statement. I think the problem is that you are posting
an article about the LDS Church and thereby implying that you feel the LDS
Church is too involved in politics. And yet the LDS Church is completely neutral
besides asking its members to vote for whichever candidate they feel is the
best. There has never been, nor will there ever be, an endorsement from the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a particular candidate.
Separation of Church and State?Where is this magical place that subscribes
to this notion?
I actually think Romney's candidacy hurt the LDS Church. He came off
disingenuous since he had to seem more conservative than he really happens to be
in the primaries to win his party's nomination, and then had to go back to
the middle during the general election. Second, his comment about the
"47%" made him look prideful. Third, his lack of willingness to release
more tax returns made him seem secretive and cultish. Finally, Romney's
aides ran around behind him having to change or clarify statements that he made
in public. Also, it seemed rather sad when he couldn't take any
responsibility for his campaign losing during his phone conference this week
with campaign staff, and blamed his loss squarely on Obama. That proved to more
people that he's very narcissistic. Jon Huntsman would have made a much
better example to the nation of a presidential candidate who happens to be LDS.
Huntsman perhaps is too moderate though and too much of a stateman to make it
out of the Republican primaries.
Really? I would tend to be careful about any association with a precariously
dishonest man like Romney.
Iman Some seem to be scared of Romney.Don't be scared,
he's a good man.A simple, good hearted man.
Whatever good Romney has created....Harry will surely destroy!
Tiger5That comment sounds like you are trying to convince yourself,
not anyone else...
This is not true . . .What is sad is that some are going to feel the
destruction, and others aren't.
Is the LDS church main concern "winning"? Is faith a game to the LDS
church? It appears reasonable to suggest that the view painted of the church in
this election will be a view colored by the remarks from Mr. Romney post
election loss. A different article in this paper sums it up. See the article
"Mitt Romney: President Obama won with 'gifts' to certain
voters." Mr. Romney and all he is associated with comes across very poorly
based on his comments. The comments from those here, who so vocally supported
this man during his campaign, is quite telling. The GOP itself is busy
distancing themselves from this man and are in full damage control mode. Not a
pretty picture at all.
The more the negative comments fly, the stronger Mormon I become.So, let
tlauluI used the general term, "organized religion", in
which I meant ALL of them.
If there was a positive effect from the Romney campaign, it was on
conservatives. Liberals don't care about your religious background. Note
the Buddhist and Hindu members of Congress representing the state of Hawaii.
Note Harry Reid as majority leader. It is nice to see conservatives increase
their religious tolerance. I hope it lasts.
bobdc6Name the organized religion you would like to stay out of
I don't believe the lds culture should subscribe to being socially accepted
by the "mainstream". It's overrated! I'm glad that there are
relationship improvements with fellow Christians as well as those that dedicate
themselves to service....but I don't believe Ill ever need my faith to be
validated by the likes of Bill Gates, Steve Martin, snoop dog, george clooney,
Sean Hannity, and/or ladies of "The View".
The world would be a better place if organized religion would stay out of
Talk to the 51% who didn't vote for Romney who thought he was dishonest,
elitist, and had no moral center except to obey the teachings of his religion.
Chances are that reputation didn't do Mormons any good at all.
I agree with SS. I don't see where Romney's campaign nor the LDS
church focus on profit and money, nor the whole white male image. If you are
familiar at all with the church, you know that what they stand for is what
Christ stood for, helping the poor, sick, and needy no matter of race, color,
religious ties, etc. The world will be a better place if we all were to follow
I am very pleased that there was so much support across the Southern "Bible
Belt" for Romney. We didn't really see that in 2008 when Huckabee and
Romney were running against each other. That fact that there were so many red
states from Texas to North Carolina gave me hope that people were not voting on
religion or religious biases in that region.
@tabuno, I would politely disagree with you. My non-Mormon friends living in
California, Florida, Ohio, New York all admire and respect Romney, and the way
he has lived his life, giving generously to others. They were devastated by the
election results. And have individually remarked that the Romney family
elevated the Mormon Church in their eyes. So, your assessment is probably more
based on your political leanings than anything else. But, we are hearing story
after story of doors being opened to LDS missionaries that were heretofore
closed. Ask the folks in Rockaways, New York, who has been helping them the
most: FEMA or the Mormon Church.
It seems the people who are so eager to declare Mormonism "mainstream"
are -- guess who? Mormons themselves.I don't think being
"mainstream" is something you can nominate and elect yourselves to.
Nice but we still have such a loooooooooong ways to go. Our missionaries here
say there is NO difference in how people are talking to them. We need to get
busy and be good citizens, be more active in our communities, make more non
Mormon friends and be good LDS. I think we are learning some great things but
@ tabuno,Any publicity is good publicity. More people will ask questions
about the church, more people will seek out the church through friends or
missionaries. It's a matter of statistics. And why would Romney's
comments show that the LDS Church is more focused on profit, money, and white
males? You have no base for that argument. Last but not least, Romney is not the
image of the LDS Church, it's Jesus Christ. Just because a member runs for
POTUS doesn't mean they have now become the image of the church. Was JFK
the face of Catholics?
As a non-Mormon, I've held my personal beliefs about the Church to myself.
But I don't think that the LDS Church really will benefit from
Romney's run for U.S. President. A number of his various comments seem only
to solidify the outside image that both Romney and the LDS Church is more
focused on profit and money, having an aristocratic, white, male image that is
not really the mainstream of the direction of America. It's just as likely
that Romney has painted an image of the LDS church in is own image which by
association pushes the LDS Church more onto the borders of politics rather than
Hopefully civility will continue as memories of Romney fade