Anyone wishing to avoid the "fiscal cliff" needs to acknowledge
something: they are in favor of higher deficits. Going over the "cliff"
cuts the deficit in half, so all those who claim to be deficit hawks (like me)
should be in favor. Granted, it's a stupid way to reduce the deficit, but
stupid seems like the only way we can get congress to do anything.
It's about time.
"do as I wish, or I will drive this bus off the cliff and you will get the
blame."The GOP would get the blame, only because it will be
clear to the masses that they would be at fault.Even Bill Kristol
(hyper conservative) said this week - "You know what? It
won’t kill the country if Republicans raise taxes a little bit on
millionaires. It really won’t, I don’t think.I
don’t really understand why Republicans don’t take Obama’s
offer to freeze taxes for everyone below $250,000. Make it $500,000, make it a
million.Really? The Republican party is gonna fall on its sword to
defend a bunch of millionaires, half of whom voted Democratic, and half of whom
live in Hollywood and are hostile to Republicans?
That has been the president's message to congressional republicans since he
took office, except for the first 2 years there were no bones offered.Well summerized Mr. Brown!It would be nice if he took a class in
how to negotiate with others for the common good. Making threats and demands
will not help this country move forward. But sadly that is what we can expect
for 4 more years.
One thing I took away from the press conference...Obama admitted that he (the
White House)sent Susan Rice out, five days after the terrorist attack, to go
"forward" (yes, pun intended) with the false narrative of the video.
The survey by the Pew Research Center and the Washington Post found 51 percent
of those polled said they don’t think President Barack Obama and Congress
will be able to agree on a package of tax increases and spending cuts to replace
the automatic reductions in government spending and the expiration of the
Bush-era tax cuts scheduled for Jan. 1. Thirty-eight percent said they expected
Obama and Congress to cut a deal.If lawmakers fail to reach a deal,
53 percent said Republicans in Congress will bear responsibility, compared with
29 percent who said Obama will be at fault and 10 percent who chose both
No, even if you do play nice, he STILL won't say anything nice about
them.Granted, it's a stupid way to reduce the deficit, but
stupid seems like the only way we can get BO and reid to do anything.The truth is, BO and the dems know how to manipulate the masses, along with
their complicit lamestream media.
Mr. Obama is the President. He has no legislative authority. All budget bills
originate in the House. (Article I, Section 7: "All Bills for raising
Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may
propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. . .")Notice
that nothing is said that the Senate must agree on the budget; however, the
Senate may NOT originate budget bills. Obama has no Constitutional authority in
the budget. The Senate has no Constitutional authority to force the House to do
anything with the budget.The House has a majority of Republicans.
Republicans are clearly in charge, not Obama.Revenue MUST be
increased, but tax rates must NOT be raised. More workers will increase
revenues and will decrease government welfare payments. Providing incentives
for businessmen to hire more workers is the lowest cost path to increasing
revenues.Obama opposes hiring workers. He has crippled business.
He increased welfare has added to the deficit. He needs to sit back and let
businessmen solve the financial mess by hiring more workers who pay income
taxes. Taking one million workers off welfare will save $30 billion in welfare
payments and it will generate tax revenue.
So Mr. Brown you missed the part where the President when pressed by Chuck Todd
on the tax increases said he wasn't wedded to increasing taxes but was
committed to increasing revenues from those making over $250,000. That's
not just a wink to the Repbulican leadership it's a gift of epic
proportions. So Mr. Brown and Christian 24-7 you're both absolutely wrong
about the Presidents attitude and his negotiating skills..but then why would
anyone be surprised at that. Republicans demonstrated over the past year that
their view of reality is a big illusion.
Mr. Brown is completely right about the first point. President Obama is the
legally elected president of the United States. Mitt lost. This is how a
republic works. Your guy doesn't always win.
Lost in DC: "Granted, it's a stupid way to reduce the deficit, but
stupid seems like the only way we can get BO and reid to do anything."This is a budget showdown that Republicans overwhelmingly approved. The
president is just pointing out that elections have consequences, and if the GOP
hopes to get any credit whatsoever for deficit reduction they can only do so by
intelligently playing the hand that they dealt themselves.But
speaking of "stupid," I like this the best.AP news story
from Tuesday, reporting on Republican governor Bobby Jindal's remarks to
the Republican Governors Association:"Louisiana's Indian
American Governor Bobby Jindal has asked Republicans to "stop being the
stupid party" as he forcefully rejected Mitt Romney's claim that
President Barack Obama won with "gifts" to minorities and young
voters."Amazing! A grown-up has dared rear his head in the GOP!
If Obama is serious about reducing the deficit, let him donate $1 million to the
treasury today. Let him lead by example. If there is one person in America who
could give away $1 million without sacrificing his home, his meals, his
transportation, or his entertainment, it would be the President. Everything
paid for by the people. He will not be hungry. He will not be homeless. He
will not walk around in rags. Let him lead by example. Let him get
the rich Democrats in Congress to donate their millions to the treasury. Let
him get the rich entertainers to donate their millions to the treasury.All he is doing is being a miser even as he tells Republicans that they need
to raise taxes on others.Let him lead by example.Let him
show us how giving HIS money to the government will help US.
Obama already compromised with Republicans when he extended all the Bush tax
cuts in 2010. Now it is the Republican's turn to step forward and forge a
compromise with Obama.
It's not hard to see who has the common man's interests at heart.Hint: It's not the GOP.
Mike,Reducing unemployment from 7.9 percent to 3 percent would not
give us enough revenue. We need to increase revenue substantially, which means
closing loopholes AND raising tax rates. A majority of Americans favor
increasing taxes. The super rich know they need to pay more, and groups of them
have banded together to lobby Congress along these lines. It is only the
Republican Party apparatus, which has been hijacked by Grover Norquist, that
will fall on its sword to defend the rights of millionaires and billionaires to
save 4.6 percent of their taxable income (the result of allowing the Bush tax
cuts to expire. Oh, by the way, those tax cuts were intended to be temporary.
That's why Congress put an expiration date on them. HELLO.
The GOP has the tax payers (common man) interest at heart. If higher taxes
reduced the deficit and were not wasted by the government, I would gladly pay.
We cannot afford more crony wasting like the 38 failing or failed green
industries funded at the common man's expense or the General Accounting
Office spending more than $900,000 on a Vegas party. Obama won the election buy
Romney's 49% of the voted clearly shows that Obama does not have a mandate
to be a dictator. Obama has chosen Hugo Chavez as his role model.
Ummmm1. Yes, he is the President, get over it.2. Yes,
Republicans had better start compromising or they WILL get the blame.I might add:3. There's another House Congressional election in 2
years. All 435 seats will be up for grabs. Congress only has a 14% approval
rating as is -- The GOP only remains in power today due to the gerrymandering of
voting disctricts [According to Princeton University, The GOP lost the popular
vote in the House last week]. The GOP LOST seats in both the House and the
Senate this race -- One more bone-head stalemate this time around will doom the
Republican Party for the next 10-12 years.Republicans need to
"stop being the party of stupid" ~ Republican Gov. Bobby Jindal.Loosing the elections and then taking America hostage by pointing a gun
at our head is a cowardly fool's way of getting what you want. It
won't end pretty is all I can say.
@mike richards the tax cuts that where suppose to lead to more workers has
not worked for 11 years why do you think it is magically going to work now? Save
your magical thinking for religion.
@Mike RichardsIn one sentence you say Congress is in charge, the next
sentence you are saying Obama crippled business, how is this possible in your
" All budget bills originate in the House. ..." The Senate has no
Constitutional authority to force the House to do anything with the
budget.""The House has a majority of Republicans.
Republicans are clearly in charge, not Obama."And yet, you
constantly blame Obama for not passing a budget.Which way is it
Mike. Consistency. Thats all I ask for.
"Providing incentives for businessmen to hire more workers is the lowest
cost path to increasing revenues",is a lie.
ladies and gentleman the new professional victims formally known as the GOP.
Well, he did win. So why shouldn't he exert his legitimate power?
It seems, judging by the comments on this board, and by those signing petitions
to secede from the union, that Jindal's advice is not going to be heeded by
the Republicans. Sorry, GOP, you hitched your wagon to them, you are
going to have a very, very hard time switching horses midstream.
JoeBlow,The House has passed a budget. Every year. The Republican Vice
Presidential candidate had a lot to do with the budget process, which is one
reason he was chosen as a Presidential running mate.The
Democratic-controlled Senate has not acted on the budgets they've been
given. As a result, our country has not had a budget for the past two years.That's the way it is.
Newwest,Yes, that is the way it is. I know how politics works.Here is an accurate portrayal of reality.The house is
controlled by the GOP. They initiate a budget. They have put forth very
partisan budget. The Ryan Budget had ZERO democrat votes. But, it passes
because the GOP controls the house.Since the Dems control the
senate, the budget does not pass. And the GOP house knew it would not pass the
senate when they passed it.Bottom line. We have no budget because
the GOP house passed a partisan budget and the DEM controlled senate rejected
it.Do you really feel that the sole blame is on the Senate and the
Who stopped the pipeline, Congress or Obama?Who stopped oil
production in Utah, Wyoming and Colorado, Congress or Obama?Who
stopped oil drilling in the Gulf, Congress or Obama?Who imposed
regulations on the coal industry, Congress or Obama?Who guaranteed
"loans" to bankrupt "clean engery" companies, Congress or
Obama?Obama cannot legislate, but he can cripple business. He has
crippled business. He will continue to cripple business. His "business
plan" is to make government supreme in all facits of our lives. Private
business is his competitor. His plan is to cripple private business. If you
can't see that, you haven't been looking very hard.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, Utah11:56 a.m. Nov. 15, 2012========= Boy, It's going to be a ver VERY long 4
years for you Mike.Good Luck with that.
Blue,When was the last time harry reid let a budget through, or even
allowed a vote? Uh, that would be – NEVER! unless you count the vote on
BO’s budget that not even a dem voted for.This is a budget
showdown that harry reid and congressional dems along with BO overwhelmingly
approved.Old manIt’s not hard to see who wants to keep
the common man dependent and therefore in bondage to the government –
hint, it’s not the GOPLDS lib,The approval rating you
quote is literally unchanged from before the election when the repubs retained
control of the house.Tolstoy,The tax cuts DID work. Slick
willey’s inverted yield curve in 2000 led to the 2001 recession that was
heightened by 9/11. Bush had the unemployment rate in the 5% range until the
barney-frank induced housing bubble collapsed and brought our economy down with
it. if they didn't, why did BO's OWN people tell him not to raise
taxes in late 2010 because of the damage it would do to employment and the
economy? Joe blowYep, the senate dems
To the liberals out there, please explain your blind following of Obama. Either
he is grossly incompetent or else intentionally set up the fiscal cliff.Look at what Obama did. In 2010, Obama extended the Bush Tax cuts, and
had also set up all sorts of automatic tax increases and spending cuts to take
effect all at the same time. So, you have to ask yourself, is Obama so
incompetent that he set up the fiscal cliff, or did he intentionally set up the
fiscal cliff?To "Kent C. DeForrest" if more people were
working, even if they don't bring in enough to end the deficit, they will
impact the budget because they will cut the amount of social welfare spending.
Think of it as a free spending cut.To "JoeBlow" the House
has passed a budget last year, while the Democrats in the Senate wouldn't
even vote on one.To "LDS Liberal" During the 1956
Presidential campaign, Norman Thomas, on national television, announced,
"The Socialist Party will no longer be running a candidate for president.
The Democratic Party is leading this country to Socialism much faster than we
could ever hope to."
All that can be said is that the election did not slow the inflammatory
rhetoric. The nonsensical whining just keeps coming and coming. Maybe
it's time that Democrats get both a majority in the House and a
super-majority in the Senate. There can then be a true dialog between liberals
and conservatives without the obstructionism of the wingnut fringe controlling
the Republican Party.
@Mike Richards South Jordan, UtahAt this moment in time, it looks
like the Republican Party is dying of self-inflicted wounds. The message of
movement conservatives is dead. The appeal to rich white guys and angry, old,
white guys is restricted by demographics and reality. Mitt Romney refuses to go
away and continues to blame his failure on the very people who's votes he
needed to win the election. And the angry, old, white guys (AOWG) writing in
this thread keep saying the same old, tired thing ad naseum.It will
take some time for the AOWG to adjust and move on. There are problems which
need a solution. However, it is clear from many AOWG can't find it within
themselves to give it up. They have too much on the table to leave their anger
behind and adapt to the times.
@lostinteresting now you are the one claiming it was everyone but
bush's fault that the economy tanked. my my my. Its clintons fault it
barney's fault its the terrorist fault, its the spaghetti monster in the
skies fault." So I will ask you the same question that you always ask. who
was president when the recession began, whose tax policies where in place? yu
always claim democrats want to blame everyone else but then when its time to man
up and admit bush failed you do the same thing.
What happened to Obama's gray hair? Is he so vain that he has it colored,
or did he have it colored to make him look "wiser" in the debates?Why wasn't General Petraeus an issue before the election? Are we
really to believe that Eric Holder didn't tell Obama anything about
Petraeus for five months?Why did the unemployment rate jump by
100,000 people in the week following the election? Does anyone really think that
100,000 people lost their jobs in one week when unemployment was
"supposedly" going down?Nothing has changed. Obama still
can't find the truth, no matter how hard he looks for it. His supporters
still tell us that he is telling the truth and that the CIA, the State
Department, the FBI and foreign leaders are the ones lying about Benghazi.
They're telling us that Obama is kept out of the loop when we're under
attack. They're telling us that Obama is shielded from important
information by Eric Holder. They're implying that the government is total
disarray because nobody in the administration trusts Obama enough to inform him
of anything except his "Tee Time".
"What happened to Obama's gray hair? Is he so vain that he has it
colored, or did he have it colored to make him look "wiser" in the
debates?"This sums up a large part of the GOP problem.People worry about things like this. Or birth certificates. Or Mrs Obamas
sleeveless dresses.Credibility = totally gone. Grow up.(sometimes I do vote Republican, but am too embarrassed to admit it. This is
Thompson, enjoy your irrelevancy.
@ Salsa,Nothing has changed, has it? The Democrats still try to use
diversion to keep us from questioning Obama about his involvement in any duty
that has been assigned to him. The Democrats still tell us that the Republicans
are the root of all our problems, even though the Senate and the White House is
controlled by Democrats and the budget is either voted down 100 to 0 or totally
ignored when it gets to Harry Reid. The Democrats still attack the messenger.
They still call names. They still deny any responsibility for the $6 TRILLION
is new deficit spending since Obama took office.Let's admit it.
Democrats find it easier to ask "academics" how to solve our budget
problems instead of asking businessmen how they balance a budget. Democrats
have never had to wipe off the chalk dust from the classroom. They think that
ivory tower solutions actually work. They've removed themselves so far
from reality that they actually admire Obama and his policies.There
are no acceptable excuses for Obama's actions. His policies are fully in
effect. We're reaping the destruction caused by his ideas and from his
lack of leadership.
Red Shirt..apparently you haven't been paying attention. Congress and the
White House were instrumental in the fiscal cliff..and it was set up on
purpose..it was intentional..it was constructed by design. Done as an
Mike,"Democrats find it easier to ask 'academics' how
to solve our budget problems instead of asking businessmen how they balance a
budget."One among many problems with this simplistic statement
is that the businessmen want to have their taxes cut, minimize labor costs by
shipping jobs off to China or making many jobs unnecessary by increasing
productivity, and by funneling as much wealth to the top 1 percent as possible.
But they still expect American consumers to purchase all their products, even
those produced in China, India, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Vietnam (to name a
convenient few). This is a primary reason we can't balance the federal
budget. Basically, Uncle Sam has become the consumer of last resort. We can fix
this, but not by using any proposals put forth by either the Republicans or the
Democrats. The problem isn't government, as the conservatives claim to
believe. The problem is embedded within our current corporate system. We are
asking all the wrong questions.
To "pragmatistferlife" please go back and read my post. The question is
for the liberals to decide. Is Obama incompetent or did he do it on purpose.
Either way, should a person like that be supported and be the President?
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahDemocrats have never had to
wipe off the chalk dust from the classroom. [Teachers and Academia tend to be
Liberal – aka, mostly Democrat]They've removed themselves
so far from reality that they actually admire Obama and his policies.[as
opposed to close to reality Republican policies such as;Conspiracy
Theories, Birthers, GlobalWarming denialism, tobacco doesn’t cause cancer,
the earth is only 6,000 years old, and God intended legitimate rapes…]=============== Face it - Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity,
Glenn Beck and all the other ultra-far-right-wingers lost this election for the
Republicans.Take some personal responsibility for it.For
the life of me -- I can't tell which is worse -- Your saying
Obama blamed everything on Bush -- oryour hypocracy blaming everyone
and eveything else but yourselves for your own loss.
Don't we have an interesting turn of events. Mr. Obama lost 9,000,000
voters but some of his followers here think that he has a mandate and that he
should have the right to boss the House around. Why doesn't he start with
the Democrats in the Senate? Why doesn't he boss them into voting for his
budget? They kicked him out, empty handed those two times that he thought that
he could boss them around. They'll kick him out again. So, like most
bullies, he decided to pick another target instead of realizing that HE is the
problem. He's throwing his weight around, but it's not working. The
House has already seen that he is unable to do anything except fume and
threaten. They're not stupid. They won't let him pin his failings on
them.Nothing has changed. Obama has no plan. He still knows
nothing about business. He still knows nothing about the economy. He still
thinks that yelling and calling names will get the job done.He's got a lot to learn and very little time to learn it.
L. White:Even in this year's election, more people have voted
for Obama than ever voted for Bush. If Bush was able to boast about his
"political capital" after he was re-elected, then why cant'
President Obama do the same?As I recall, Obama isn't the one
sending a sham bill called President Obama's Budget to the Senate just so
Democrats can vote it down. He's not the one shouting, "You lie!"
on the floor of Congress. He's not the one claiming that Republicans faked
their birth certificates. That would be your side.You have a
choice: You can either try to learn from last week's defeat or you can
keep throwing tantrums and go on losing elections. Your choice...
Mr. KJB1,Are you one of the few who thinks that the House is just an
extension of the White House? Are you one of the very few who have decided that
the President is a legislator? Tell us again how many votes the President got
for HIS budget in the Senate. Tell us why the Senate turned him down without a
single vote. Was it because they couldn't not stand the man or was it
because his budget would bankrupt the country?As far as being called
a liar, isn't that exactly what the State Department, the military, the CIA
and foreign government leaders are telling us about Bengazi? As far as that
goes, who's lying about the head of the CIA, the President, who claimed
that he had heard nothing or Eric Holder, his attorney general, who knew about
the affair in early summer?Surely you can see that Mr. Obama and
truth are not often seen in the same sentence.Just who was it who
spent $6 TRILLION more than he took in? He can't blame that on the
Romney has been defeated. He's on a "blame the minorities" tour to
shift responsibility away from himself and his campaign as a dodge to divert
criticism by the social conservatives who wanted a "genuinely, severely
conservative" candidate rather than the one they settled on. Many Republican govenors and congressional legislators want him to go away,
vamoose, and disappear. George W. Bush is still persona non grata within the
Republican Party. Now Mitt Romney will join him in obscurity.We'll just have to see how the blood flows with the Republican base and
their reactionary enablers wanting to get even more ideologically partisan and
others in the leadership lobbying to adapt to the new electorate and avoid
irrelevancy.Those here writing in defense of the Republican message
continue to repeat old, tired talking points and have no worthwhile suggestions
going forward. They continue to be angry about losing and would probably like
to exclude anyone who voted for Obama from future elections. Many of their
simplistic excuses for failing in this election exemplify the alternate universe
To "LDS Liberal" if the political commentators lost the election for
Romney, explain why only 2% less people voted for Romney than McCain, yet Obama
had 8% less people vote for him this time.What that means is that
fewer people came out to support Obama this time than 4 years ago.Conservatives were able to do a better job keeping their base excited and
voting. Meanwhile, Obama kept riding his rockstar image, changing his story to
reflect what the audience wanted to hear. For example, on energy, he has cut
off more oil producing areas than he has opened up, yet he claims to be pro-oil.
Obama's lies and hypocrisy were so outrageous combined with complacancy
from the media that you essentially had Benghazi in the political arena. You
had 2 seals fighting off the Obama army. What would you expect to happen when
there are only a few voices telling the truth in a crowd with a socialist
Red Shirt, again it was done on purpose by both the President and the Congress
as a tatic to force a compromise in the future..should someone be elected
President who uses such a tatic..apparently so, he was..and guess what the
tactic seems to be working. Both sides are now talking about posssibilities,
wasn't happening before. Oh by the way it looks like the tactic could
qualify Obama as a uniter..go figure.
@JoeBlow:"Even Bill Kristol (hyper conservative) said this week
- 'You know what? It won’t kill the country if Republicans raise
taxes a little bit on millionaires. It really won’t, I don’t
think."Republican should allow the Obama tax increase on
millionaires so that, when unemployment climbs and the economy tanks again as a
result, Republicans will have something to point the finger at for the mid-term
elections.Also, Republicans must insist that any tax increase must
be applied to the obscene national debt... but Democrats will find a way to use
it to grow the government instead.
@Mike Richards:"All budget bills originate in the House.
(Article I, Section 7)..."Not anymore. It was that way back in
the day when the Congress paid heed to the processes outlined in the
Constitution. Any bills can originate in either house... differences to be
worked out in a joint House/Senate committee.Actually the way it
works these days is... the president starts the budget process... sometime in
the Jan/Feb/Mar time frame, he asks his agencies to identify and compile funding
needs for the coming fiscal year which begins 1 Oct. The Office of Management
and Budget (OMB) collects the data, hands it to the president for review which
is then forwarded to the Congress for legislative action. Both the House and
the Senate get copies and either agree to the package or make changes. If there
is disparities the packages from the House and the Senate go to a joint
committee to resolve differences.The problem is, the president has
reportedly not sent a budget (request) package to the Congress for several
"Tell us again how many votes the President got for HIS budget in the
Senate. Tell us why the Senate turned him down without a single vote. "White, you really don't know the story with that "budget"
vote. No, of course you don't. A good beginning might be to learn something
about the budget process. But let me just tell you, there never was a vote in
the Senate on President Obama's budget. Why do you guys insist
on being so consistantly uninformed? I think at a point you guys would be
Maybe we could define what being a leader means?It seems to some
posters that being a leader means being the one selected.I believe
that a leader is someone who brings together competing interests and steers a
positive outcome.When President Obama chooses to lead rather than
dictate, I will be first in line to praise him.We have seen four
years of his leadership and I would not characterize him as a leader.
To "pragmatistferlife" so lets be clear about what you believe.You believe that Obama intentionally set this nation up on a fiscal cliff that
has the potential of driving us into another recession, which will be worse than
the results of the 2008-2009 recession.You also believe that
eventhough what he did was wrong, you believe that the ends justify the means.
You believe that this will lead to increased talks, and not what we are already
seeing, which is more posturing and 2 sides that are even less willing to
compromise.You believe that since Obama was re-elected that is all
the justification needed for a president to play games with the US economy.
@JoeBlow:"We have no budget because the GOP house passed a
partisan budget and the DEM controlled senate rejected it."Are
you saying the House should get approval from the Senate before it lifts a
finger? That's not the way it's supposed to work.@Mike
Richards:"Obama cannot legislate..."Obama has
found a very useful tool to 'legislate.' 'Executive
Orders.' Take the illegal immigrant amnesty issue. Contrary to
immigration law enacted by Congress, Obama granted amnesty to illegals under age
30... with a tacit promise to extend it indefinitely once he is elected
president.Actually, he didn't use an Executive Order. He just
sent a memo to Homeland Security. This guy should be impeached for violating a
federal law.@Mad Hatter:"Maybe it's time that
Democrats get both a majority in the House and a super-majority in the
Senate."Democrats had exactly that situation two years ago. And
what did it get us? The very unpopular Obamacare. We don't need anymore
of that.@J Thompson:"Nothing has changed. Obama
still can't find the truth, no matter how hard he looks for it."Obama's objective was to get reelected... not to tell the truth.
Red Shirt..Congress, and the President have openly admitted, on Fox, on MSNBC,
on ABC and every other news outlet that they set up the Sequester as it's
formally called to be so onerous that they would have to comprimise to avoid the
consequences. So yes I and everyone is in the country who listens believes that
this was done intentionally. Secondly, it's not a fiscal "it's
more like a fiscal curve. If taxes go up on Jan 1 they aren't due for
twelve months giving more time for a fix. Pentagon cuts are on future contracts,
again down the road. Thirdly no credible person thinks that this would cause a
recession worse than '08. It's not a structural recession.
Lastly..yes I think that what we are seeing is more than simple posturing. As
an example both sides are now talking about the "need" for more
revenues. Very different.