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Letter: No such thing as 'free' things, the money must come from somewhere

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  • Mr. Bean Ogden, UT
    Oct. 26, 2012 9:54 p.m.

    @RedShirt:

    "Tell us, how will the ACA lower total costs of caring for the nation?"

    One way is to deny health care to the elderly... correctly called death panels by Sarah Palin. Obama hinted at it with his comment that, in certain cases (such as a hip replacement or lever transplant) the elderly go home and take a pain pill.

    @Twin Lights:

    "Again, I am not shilling for the ACA. There are other options."

    True, there are other options... And one is for states to take over the problem of health care... like Massachusetts did under Romney. I think the US Supreme court has held that the Federal Constitution does not authorize the federal government to require purchasing health insurance. State Constitutions have no such restrictions.

  • Mr. Bean Ogden, UT
    Oct. 26, 2012 9:32 p.m.

    ugottabkidn:

    "If you want to cut welfare, food stamps and unemployment insurance then bring back the TRILLIONS from overseas..."

    You might wanna tell that to your leader, Obama? His Illinois State retirement account is invested in part in China.

    If you're taking about Romney's overseas accounts, please consider that his money is safer there since more than 500 US banks have gone bankrupt since 2000. Had he invested in US banks he would likely have no money to invest.

    @Twin Lights:

    "Folks yammer on about how gov't makes it all more expensive."

    Government-controlled programs are the most inefficient, wasteful and thus expensive for what you get in return.

    "Others have already brought up the problem with freeloaders on the system - folks who don't have insurance and then go to the emergency room or ask for charity when they get in trouble."

    The fault is the government's for forcing private hospitals to provide services regardless of one's ability to pay. People who can't pay their medical bills should be told to sell their TV, cancel their Cell phone services, and go home and take an aspirin. The later being Obama's advise.

  • Alfred Ogden, UT
    Oct. 26, 2012 9:14 p.m.

    @Rifleman:
    "The mentality of the liberals is that as long as someone else is going to pay the bills who cares?"

    Yeah, as someone once said... 'Socialism is OK until you run out of other peoples' money.'

    @one old man:

    "'Obamacare' requires that we all take personal responsibility and begin paying for our medical care through insurance."

    Obamacare takes giant strides toward a socialist society.

    "Isn't that exactly what conservatives are always yowling about?"

    No. They are yowling about illegal redistribution of wealth and loss of freedoms.

    "But they are prepared to destroy the only advance we've made in that direction in their efforts to make Obama a one-term president."

    He made himself a one-term president when he told us, if he couldn't get it done in four years it would be a one term proposition. And he hasn't.

    @JoeCapitalist2:

    "Nobody asks what something costs anymore. They don't care, because they are not directly paying the bill."

    You got that right. And that's why health costs are going out of sight... someone else is paying the bill. And that's what will eventually bring us to rationed health care for.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 10:46 p.m.

    To "Twin Lights" you asked "The question for you is we have from 50% to 100% more cost per person than our European counterparts - do we get 50% to 100% more benefit?" I would say yes.

    In many European countries medications are not used because of cost, and are not allowed to be used because some people couldn't afford to pay out of pocket.

    I would consider the simple fact that we have never had national headlines about hospitals running out of beds and forcing women to give birth in offices and hallways. (England)

    Howmany times have US doctors protested because they cannot make enough money to stay in business? (Germany)

    France had to start to charge people for ambulance service because of abuse.

    If you want to stop the freeloading, you can't force them through regulation. You have to cut off the source. Require payment or payment plans to be set up after medical service.

    If you want to make insurance cheaper, get rid of the majority of the 2400+ mandates. Cut the regulations. The businesses with the worst reputations among consumers are also the most regulated. Just look up the regulations on banking and health insurance.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 23, 2012 6:27 p.m.

    RedShirt,

    We certainly have good technology and innovation. But many medical leaps occur in Europe as well. I would have to see some data on the difference in response times. But for the uninsured that wouldn't matter much.

    The question for you is we have from 50% to 100% more cost per person than our European counterparts - do we get 50% to 100% more benefit? I think the answer is a clear no.

    But none of this addresses my point. We have the most free market system yet the highest costs (by a wide margin). If more of the free market is the solution it is not evident in the data. Please explain.

    Again, I am not shilling for the ACA. There are other options. But the only way I can see to stop freeloading and to distribute costs is to require everyone to have insurance. If not, they need to sign away their right to EVER receive ANY kind of help from taxpayers or charity (otherwise we create moral hazard by rewarding risky behavior).

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Oct. 23, 2012 5:22 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" wow liberalism has not gone well for you has it. Each of the civilizations that you mention all died off because they began to follow practices that the modern day liberals follow.

    Rome was destroyed when their government became large and overly burdensome.

    Egypt fell becuase they cared more about government built monuments than the people.

    The Nephites fell because they wanted more government in the form of Kings, and gave up liberty.

    The Nazis were founded on the very liberal policies that you love. They were destined for failure before they ever left Germany.

    To the rest of you liberals. Now that more people are going to be insured, that will further drive up healthcare spending in this nation. If it currently costs $11 Trillion to serve 250 million people, it will cost more to now treat 300 million people with the same number of doctors. Tell us, how will the ACA lower total costs of caring for the nation?

    To "Twin Lights" we also have the best technology, quickest response time from diagnosis to treatment, and we are the most innovative nation. Are you saying you are willing to give that up?

  • freedomingood provo, Utah
    Oct. 23, 2012 10:12 a.m.

    Exactly, so conservatives need to either stop demanding a larger military, roads and closed borders or they need to pony up and pay for it.

    Mandating that everyone carry PRIVATE healthcare coverage was a neocon idea. Just because politicians lie and call it a socialist, communist government healthcare takeoevr doen't excuse you from knowing better and not repeating lies.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:48 p.m.

    We have the most free market oriented health care system in the world AND the highest costs.

    If free markets were the solution, we should have the cheapest system.

    Folks yammer on about how govt. makes it all more expensive. But that is not what the evidence shows when we compare ourselves with other first world countries (which also have excellent medicine).

    Some markets are not highly responsive to free market incentives (at least not in the way we would want them to respond). The more I look at healthcare, the more it seems to be one of these.

    Others have already brought up the problem with freeloaders on the system - folks who don't have insurance and then go to the emergency room or ask for charity when they get in trouble.

    Some means of requiring all to be properly insured seems to be necessary. We can dislike the model proposed, but we must come up with a model that requires full participation in the insurance pool.

    The only other solution? Require adults who opt out to sign an irrevocable contract that they will never seek nor accept help for any illness they get and let the chips fall.

  • andyjaggy American Fork, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 4:06 p.m.

    You are absolutely right, I should have thought about this and taken some personal responsibility before I was born with a pre-existing medical condition that has made it nearly impossible for me to get insurance!

    What I don't understand is how all the super conservatives are against the idea of everyone paying for their health insurance. We already pay for what you might call "freeloaders" by forking over billions of dollars to cover ER costs for everyone, now we are asking everyone to pitch into the pool, how is this a bad thing?

    My health insurance is no more free now than it was before Obamacare, but now I can't be denied coverage for something I had no control over, nor can my kids, or the hundreds of thousands of other children who are denied insurance because of being born with medical conditions.

    I'm sorry Cindy Sorenson, take your right wing un-charitable attitude elsewhere.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 3:39 p.m.

    nothing like fighting a straw man to try to score easy points. No one including Obama thinks anything is free, however, somethings are worth the cost.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 12:21 p.m.

    Where were Cindy's letters full of concern over the debt when her President gave us NCLB, Medicare Part D, and 2 wars?

    If she was really concerned, wouldn't she have written about that "free stuff" also? Why was she missing in action during those 8 years?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 12:05 p.m.

    Joan Watson
    TWIN FALLS, ID
    If one is so naive to beleive this will never happen a study of ancient civilizatons will give one pause to rethink the direction this country is headed.

    11:22 a.m. Oct. 22, 2012

    ============

    OK - You brought it up, so let's look at history --

    Egyptians
    Rome
    Nephites
    Nazis

    Great civilizations and Nations, but here's where and when they all failed:

    1. Shunning the poor, the sick and the needy,
    2. Starting OFFENSIVE wars.

    Conservative values then,
    Conservative values now.

    It's WHY I contend with your sorts daily.
    I love this nation, and do not want to see it's failure.

  • Joan Watson TWIN FALLS, ID
    Oct. 22, 2012 11:22 a.m.

    Our Federal deficent that depends on ever escalating taxes, borrowed or wothless printed money, will weaken America to the point of impotency. If one is so naive to beleive this will never happen a study of ancient civilizatons will give one pause to rethink the direction this country is headed.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:52 a.m.

    To all you so called conservatives I ask, how do you think your empty suit "saved" Bain Capital in the 90's and allegedly turned a profit for the SL Olympics in 2002? It was from government bailouts, free money from the tax payer so let's end this hypocritical discussion of welfare and start insisting that Congress start investing in Main street rather than just Wall Street. If you want to cut welfare, food stamps and unemployment insurance then bring back the TRILLIONS from overseas, quit the obstruction and invest in America.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:29 a.m.

    No one, other than Republicans, are offering "free stuff."

    The ACA is paid for through premiums and taxes, just like Medicare and Madicaid, VA hospitals, and countless other programs that rely on public funding to do important work that the private sector either can't or won't.

    What concerns me most, however, is this new meme from the right about how (in their minds) people who call for improvements in public services do so in the absence of an awareness of the fiscal impact of these improvements.

    Do you guys really believe that when liberals observe that our schools, roads, bridges, dams, etc. have suffered from decades of neglect and underfunding that we don't recognize that serious money is involved in addressing this neglect? Or that you can't make meaningful progress with either the deficit or our crumbling infrastructure without an overhaul of our tax system, and that, yes, taxes will need to be raised if you hope to pay for all the stuff that desperately needs to be done?

    Conservatives lately act as though they believe that civilization just happens without the need for mutual participation in paying for it.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:15 a.m.

    Sorry, Biff, but your comment about my comment is where the foolishness lies.

    Please turn off the neocon radio and make an effort to learn the truth.

    I know it will require some effort, but you'll find it worth it if you will try.

  • John C. C. Payson, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:04 a.m.

    Of course the good benefit programs are not free. We pay for them with our taxes because we believe in taking care of those who need our help. Please join us.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 10:01 a.m.

    We need a single payer health system. Payer, of course, is a term that suggests it is not free. Of course health care isn't free. But we pay way too much for it, have way too many hands in the pot and don't get anywhere near the value we should for it. But it's not free. We get that.

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:51 a.m.

    Not sure what the point of this letter is, but I guess it's a call for higher taxes. So, yeah, agreed.
    One idea everyone on the Right seems to agree with is that liberals want free stuff. This is, like most things the Right thinks liberals believe, complete balderdash. One reason we like Obamacare is that it is responsibly and fully funded.
    The Right, on the other hand, is running a Presidential candidate who thinks you can just cut taxes to the bone and it's no big deal, because 'tax cuts pay for themselves.' And THAT is the mentality that's led to trillion dollar deficits.
    Put another way: Grover Norquist is not a patriot.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:47 a.m.

    We already pay twice as much as the next country for health care. It's obvious that this "free market" style of health care is far more expensive and less effective than a single payer system.

    Get rid of the middle-man, insurance companies, and watch how much cheaper, effective, and efficient our health care becomes. Yes, we all know that insurance companies don't want to see this happen. But we must, for the welfare and financial stability of our country, do it.

  • Whatever Springville, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:45 a.m.

    This letter and most of the comments are just typical right wing Faux News (or even worse, Glenn Beck) regurgitation of "I have insurance, everyone else can suffer and die". Pathetic.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:43 a.m.

    Cindy says: Consider, however, the cost that the doctor put into his education in time, energy and actual money. Ask him to give that away for free, and he becomes an unpaid servant to those he is treating. His investment gains him nothing.

    When a businessman, in this case a Doctor, claims he did it all by himself and therefore deserves all the profit, he is lying. While much of the Doctors self is of his own making, and much of it paid for in cash, the most important part of his success came from the opportunity that was given him by a host of other people both living and dead.

    Does America and those other Americans deserve any return on their investment?

    Why does one person have the right to become rich just by having the means to take advantage of the opportunity?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:39 a.m.

    Selective mis-reasoning, again --

    Why is it you guys always forgot to mention the 'free' Wars,
    the 'free' oil, and
    the 'free' Corporate hand-outs?

    But go ahead ultra-Cons,
    keep taking your frustrations out on the poor, sick, elderly and the needy.

  • Bifftacular Spanish Fork, Ut
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:33 a.m.

    One Old Man, I'm glad you piped in with your two cents because that is about what it's worth. Millions and millions of Americans are on welfare (and growing under Obama's watch). They not only don't pay their own healthcare costs, they don't even pay for their own food! Your statement that we all pay our fair share under Obamacare is utter foolishness.

  • 4601 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:26 a.m.

    The left wing is similar to someone who orders an expensive meal in a restaurant and then acts surprised when the bill comes and they are unable to pay. It must be someones else's fault, the people at another table, the rich patrons, the tsunami or even George Bush. Economic reality is nonsense only to those skilled at spending other people's money.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 9:03 a.m.

    Gildas wrote: "Consider the sad fact that freedom itself is injured, sick and dying."

    That is a statement that we should all have framed and hanging on our walls. That is a statement that we should FIRST think about when Obama promises more "free stuff". That is a statement that we should read when Obama tells college students that education should be "free". That is a statement we should read when Obama feeds Big Bird.

    Our freedom is at state. Every time government reaches into our wallets and takes a few dollars for another politically correct program that is not one of the enumerated programs allowed by Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, we should remember what Gildas wrote.

    Our freedom is injured, sick and dying. It truly is.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 8:51 a.m.

    The main problem with health care is that with insurance, co-pays, government mandates, and now ObamaCare, we have almost completely taken away all the free market processes that have made many other systems fast, efficient, and much more cost effective.

    Nobody asks what something costs anymore. They don't care, because they are not directly paying the bill. You get a bill for just a portion of the service sometimes months later. The bill is the same whether you chose option A or option B at the time of service.

    Its kind of like a restaraunt where everyone must pay a set fee at the door for their food. Everyone wants to eat all they can, even if they are not very hungry. They want the steak, lobster, and shrimp instead of the salad or potatoes. Then they wonder why the price at the door seems to keep going up.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 8:45 a.m.

    Sanitation, clean air and water are part of the "general welfare, no doubt; all suffer or benefit from the state of the public water supply, the general atmosphere, and disease from lack of sanitiation. Control of infectious diseases likewise comes under the same categorisation, unlike some other aspects of "medicine". However "doctorcraft" should not be publicly funded and encouraged, though a good surgeon is often very helpful.

    Whatever the reasons, though, healthcare is too expensive; who can afford it? If costs cannot be reduced then we rely on charitable donations from the public, and kind doctors who feel they can and want to afford it. If these are deficient we are likely, for good or for evil, to have government intervention in healthcare more or less. I wish we could choose to opt out though - without penalty. Consider the sad fact that freedom itself is injured, sick and dying.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Oct. 22, 2012 8:02 a.m.

    This letter is total nonsense.

    "Obamacare" requires that we all take personal responsibility and begin paying for our medical care through insurance. How can it be "free" when we are all being responsible for ourselves?

    Isn't that exactly what conservatives are always yowling about? But they are prepared to destroy the only advance we've made in that direction in their efforts to make Obama a one-term president.

    They're willing to destroy us all to make that happen.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 22, 2012 6:23 a.m.

    The mentality of the liberals is that as long as someone else is going to pay the bills who cares?