Messing with the pension is going to hurt the poor more than the lessor amount
that receive $100,000 or more. I sense a desire to return to pension raiding
that took place in the 80's. If you make a contract, you stick
by it.First hand I know of another problem. Stockton in the past 15
years has had a huge immigration boom, some legal, some illegal. They were
building schools as fast as fast food buildings. Police, fire, utilities it
overloaded their support system.What does Greece and Stockton have
The people in the "private" sector got greedy. And then some people in
the public sector got greedy. But the people in the public sector that had
little or nothing to do with this were the police, firemen, public school
teachers and most city employees. Unfortunately it sounds like they will pay
the price for the mistakes of others.
"From California to Pennsylvania, places like Stockton and Scranton run out
of money"And they will vote for Obama; Obama will bail them out
and you and I will get stuck with the bill.
It's become taboo in many of our discussions to criticize public servants
such as firemen, police officers, etc. Some just can't bring themselves to
believe that people who put their lives on the Iine for the public good cold be
part of the problem. Truth is, they are just as susceptible to greed as the
rest of us (especially through their unions) and spiraIing pension costs are
causing many businesses and governments to cut back or declare bankruptcy (e.g.,
USPS). Michael Lewis actually wrote about Stocktn specifically in his book,
Boomerang, over a year ago, detailing what occurred there and how they're
trying to deal with it. He did it as a warning for what is to come and called
for us to make changes now. I heartily recommend it. It's a fascinating
and quick read.
It was a lot of things, not just union pensions. Mismanagement, growing to fast,
then having the economy go bust. The easiest people to go after is the pension
holders.If you don't think bad management can't happen
here, look at Utopia and the big unfinished skeleton on Orem's state
These bankrupt cities were dominated by liberal policies....need we say more why
liberals shouldn't be in power?
The union's and the mantra of stick it to them man! Has come back to bite
them hard. It is time to bring the wages and retirements to levels of the avrage
private sector worker. Yeah it sucks but getting something is better then
nothing. Because the tax payers can move an the tax base can dry up and this is
what you have left.
Gadiantonism, pride, and sub-replacement birthrates all portend increasing civil
strife and a genuine existensial threat everywhere.
When as a country will we learn to live within our means. Shame on those who
mismanaged tax payer money and more!
Maybe its time to cut out the money and billions of dollars funds they are
sending to China and Mexico and pay it to the state workers who can multiply
every dollar they get paid into a 7 fold windfall to the economy. Instead of a
city collecting taxes on fewer dollars, they can increase the tax collections to
the state budget 7 time more than they have now. Sending money and
funds to dead-end economic losses, they must turn it around and keep it at home.
Why help Asian and Chinese and Mexico's economy at the expense of our
economy? It just doesn't make any sense the the billions and trillions this
country is throwing away. Its time to switch off these economist
irresponsible cut costs mentality and switch the spending to spend money into
the local economy. Trying to save a dollar is costing $10 dollars in economic
loses.Economist in government don't see the relationship of
feeding the US economy and keeping Americans working and the foreign economy.
People, stop pinning this as a party problem. People all around the
table--liberal, conservative, private, and public sector--all contributed to the
problem. We let our eyes get bigger than our stomach and wouldn't listen
to those with reason until it was too late. We'll solve this thing once we
stop looking to blame the other side and instead assume the responsibility to
figure out how to solve our problems.
So, how many UTOPIAs did these cities participate in?How about some
new laws that make civil employees on the same par as bond holders?How about we don’t let business scams destroy our local government?
Stockton is one of many cities that failed to plan for the long term, and live
within its means.Utah has generally avoided the municipal and state
budget problems seen elsewhere, though we were not unscathed. Highland
(northern Utah County) got a little proud and naive and built a huge new city
administration complex, and now their taxpayers are paying the price with a 40%
property tax hike since 2007.We lived back east and saw the
overspending problems everywhere. Key culprits were: 1) Public sector unions
and information asymmetry. The unions knew the law and had better PR than the
taxpayers who they gouged. When city/state leaders pushed back, the unions
would appeal directly to the public (just like in Stockton), and regularly won
this battle. They would even use May/June tax hike votes to make sure that the
union and its sympathizers would have the most at the polls. 2) Benchmarking
salaries/benefits/buildings/services to other naive and fiscally irresponsible
cities/states.Whenever you see union/collectivist shenanigans or
benchmarking as the primary driver of an argument, it is a red flag and a
"From California to Pennsylvania, places like Stockton and Scranton run out
of money"And they will vote for Mitt because he will fix
everything, by himself, real fast.
It the police and teacher unions say to Stockton and Scranton to build a
baseball stadium using city funds. I mean the field of dreams turned into the
field of nightmares. And then Stockton wasted more taxpayer money on some river
front development and I think Scranton also did some stupid taxpayer paid
development either--all to "attract" tourists. I mean, you're
Stockton, CA. People only visit you if they have relatives. Note to Scranton,
you're Scranton and the only time people want to see Scranton is on
"The Office." I'm not saying that these wouldn't be good
places to live and work and raise a family (of course not now) but you are what
you are. The reasons pensions and such are eating up so much of the budget is
of bad decisions in other areas. I can see where people might think
police, firefighter or teacher unions are evil or whatever. But if these people
were paid a decent wage in the first place, like they should, maybe a promise of
pensions and health care wouldn't be needed as some way to entice people to
the profession in the first place.
What Now Says: "And they will vote for Mitt because he will fix everything,
by himself, real fast." Well, sort of. Mitt cannot do anything "by
himself"; he will require a cooperating congress. And it might not happen
"real fast," although I would expect some results within 4 years, which
is better than Obama has given us. But if people will follow the ideals Mitt has
set up, we can avoid becoming Greece. If we keep spending ala Obama, we will
become Greece. Stockton may have been a "perfect storm" but fiscal
conservativism would have prevented its bankruptcy. Can liberal spenders learn
from this example?
Still playing the blame game?It was Ronald Reagan's economic
adviser who stated in 2010 that he and his party, the GOP has destroyed the US
economy. Lots of blame to go around.The federal government is on
the same path to destruction as Stockton and I would vote for either party who
said they will make the hard decisions and fix the budget and or deficit.According to Mitt and Paul Ryan their budget will increase the deficit
by 1.2 trillion over 8 years and Pres Obamas budget will increase the deficit
$800 billion in the same time frame making neither party fiscally
responsible.The sad thing is Stockton like many other tax paying
entities in California have contributed their federal tax dollars to Utah and
other states as the entire state of California is a positive tax base whereas
Utah has a negative tax base and we receive more fed taxes than we pay.
Maybe we should be slower to the judgement seat about places like Stockton.People need to understand we take and use more in our society than we
can afford, when we understand that then we can begin to address the real
Protecting the middle class? Liberal policies drive out the middle class and
punish those that remain. When liberals like Rahm Emanuel take office and become
responsible for paying the bills, they look like Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin.
Bad fiscal policy eventually comes home to roost; some trite comment about no
free lunches becomes not so trite.
Oh UTOPIA where thou are:There are eleven cities in Utah that will have
their Stockton moment, Murray and West Valley, suckered at first 18 cities, 7
took a deep breath and passed, good thinking.The other eleven will now pay
for the remaining thirty two years to buy their blue skythey had a new
business model, sure they did, they bonded future sales tax revenue to buy these
bonds, unless some stroke of luck changes they will pay as high as three million
a year, you do the math, was it worth it? Again if it fails as it is, the
taxpayers are on the hook. City councils and Mayors made these decisions, and
now the gee! golly! whizze's are flying about, who would have thought?,
certainly not them. It's worse than the iProvo scheme."The most
dangerous Government is close to home"......Cicero
Republican "Trickle Down" policies have NEVER helped the middle class
whereas Democratic "liberal" policies have NEVER helped the very
rich.Why do many residents of Utah blame the "unions" and
never speak of the greedy management?Was it the unions or greedy
management that caused the financial meltdown?
Sometimes it would be nice for people in UT to be grateful for and recognize all
the tithing dollars that flow into the economy from members outside of UT.
Lesson learned here?All it takes is one clueless leader and an
entire organization can be run into the ground.
Allen#2:It was neither just the unions or greedy management that
caused the financial meltdown: Let me point to a few of the guilty parties (it
is a long list):Greedy management, greedy employees, naive and
greedy borrowers, individual land and housing speculators, FNMA, Freddie Mac,
developers, appraisers, loan officers, real estate agents, borrowers, regulators
(SEC, the United States Congress, private sector self-regulatory bodies, etc.),
CDS originators and dealers, large insurance companies such as AIG, MBS dealers
and originators, pension fund advisers, large Wall St. investment banks, local,
regional and money-center banks, individual consumers who over-levered, etc.,
etc.It was NOT Wall St or greedy corporations. In fact, most
corporations did not directly participate in the real estate or
financial/derivatives at the heart of the collapse. Most corporations kept
borrowing down and their balance sheet clean. They were prudent, unlike just
about everyone in the housing sector, and many in the financial sector that
supported/enabled them. Thank Heaven for prudent corporations. Their clean
balance sheets and the jobs that this saved are about all that we have going for
us right now.Don't buy into the anti-corporate garbage the left
@ Allen#2Of Course "Trickle Down" work, Microsoft is prime example, It created several billionaires 12000
millioniares. and about 100000 very paid employess,then it tricked
down some more, creating an entire industry that is ans was
creating windowd software and windows/pc products, making
hundresds of thousands rich and all ythis incrtesing and making the middlec
class stringer, then tricked down some more making all
out lives better snd easier, from grade schools kids leaning on the pc abd
playing games , to sollege wsing the power of computers from writing papers to
research, and all the businesses using wondows ans pcs to do
business ansd make money, that trickes down some
because those kids ans those businesses vreate more jobs ans businessses.YES, trickle down workswould it have worked if the
government took microsoft's money away?--@Ultra BOB no it wasn't bad business deals, that is just silly,
it is greedy unions taking and not caring what their greed would do in near
future. you need like 17 workers to pay the pension of one
retiree, where are all workers going to come from to pay for all the
Ah unions, the source of all evil . . .Of course folks with more
than 2 years of accounting have been telling cities and states for decades that
they were headed for trouble. Why?Because they hired folks
promising to pay some now (salary) and some later (pension) but never put enough
money away to pay the pension.So now there is a problem. One that
cities and states have been warned about since I can remember (and I remember
when the first Star Trek was not a rerun).
As my grandpa used to say "Don't count your chickens until they start
laying." The problem lies with government units that fail pay their bills
first then see what you have left to spend on wishes, Second study past economic
cycles then look at least 10 years down the road before seeking borrowed money
for projects. Every year there must be realistic budget reviews and
adjustments. Contracts with workers need to have adjustment clauses to fit
current financial conditions. States, cities and families easily go bankrupt
with out sound fiscal policies in place. Now add the Obama care burden and see
the bankrupcy numbers increase.
@RGRG commented..."...Mitt cannot do anything
"by himself"; he will require a cooperating congress...". romney mocked President Obama's comment that we are all in this
together.romney built everything himself.romney needs no
cooperation from anyone.However, romney will receive the same
cooperation President Obama received from repubs.Stall, obstruct and
fillibuster a ala (sic) repub senate minority leader mitch mcconnell worked well
for repubs.Look for Democrats to follow the same strategy.What goes around, comes around.RG continued..."...But if people will follow the ideals Mitt has set up...".Ieals?romney indicted 47% of Americans who don't pay federal
income tax.American Military Service personnel, the elderly, the
disabled, as well as students who are working to become federal income tax
payers are among the group the sneering plutocrat romney dismissed as being
unworthy free loading Americans.And these people are supposed to
follow romney's ideals?RG concluded..."Stockton
may have been a "perfect storm" but fiscal conservativism would have
prevented its bankruptcy...".Voters have learned that fiscal
conservatism exists only in the talking points of deficits don't matter
cheney/rove repubs who will do/say anything to get elected.
@The Truth.I am having difficulty finding any information to support
your statements, could you help please.
Ieals?Should read Ideals.Sorry.
Re: WHAT NOW? Saint George, UTWisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and their
legislature put a leash on their public unions to prevent a similar scenario in
their state.Pres. Reagan fired each and every PATCO union employee
who went on strike, and no, he didn't allow the repentant ones to come
back.California, the state that wanted to borrow against future
lottery revenue income to pay yesterday's bills.
Totally not factual. My husband works for Stockton Fire...this article is
sickenly misrepresented and not based on facts. The past City Council who agreed
to these so-called lavish perks started a fund JUST FOR pensions...and the
current city council lied and used it for their marina! Everything has always
been funded but the money keeps "disappearing". Then you see articles
such as this that are sooooo wrong! Our money has disappeared for years and we
have nothing to show for it...then we have to answer to this nonsense, it's
so crooked! The only reason anyone in PD or FD has EVER earned over $100,000 a
year is because of OT...and that's because the city refuses to staff at
state and government mandated levels. Fact is that many times these guys are
FORCED (or else) to come in on days off no matter what they have going on
because the city is too lame and holding on to their fluff money to staff up to
safe levels, so of COURSE they earn OT, then they're trashed for it...?
Ridiculous!!!! And, NO ONE is retiring with those benefits. Lies!!!
And how will this proposed new city of Millcreek survive? The economic
environment is jsut not right for a new incorporation; splitting away and
promising a new city can do it better. History is the great teacher and example
of the future. Vote NO to city of Millcreek
Re: LG72 Manteca, CAI have zero sympathies for the public unions and
the liberal politicians that support them. Why should they be exempt from the
same misery inflicted on the unemployed by our inept government leaders, both
state and federal?Like Bill Clinton said, "It's the
economy, stupid". People vote for the liberals and then wonder why they are
worse off now than they were 4 years ago.
Where ever you find liberals, poverty abounds.Those who voted in the
liberals will collect entitlements from those who didn't.Like a
liberal, I'll whine and say it's not fair.
As Mr. Spock would say:"it's illogical to spend yourself to
bankruptcy".With proper management, no state, city, or nation
would be in debt. None!
My opinion as to fault or reason for failure on municipal/state bankruptcy
centers on any elected official who promotes "services" which he/she
defines as essential to or for the public good. SLC is promoting a hotel,
saying it is essential for growth in tourism and conventions. If another hotel
is so essential, why hasn't one of the present hotel companies started
building more rooms? Consider the idea of moving the State Prison, essential
for a dream-state silicon corridor that will offer a cornucopia of jobs, tax
revenue and mega profits for the cohorts of state legislators. How
did we old people ever make it to adulthood having lacked so many
"services" and programs? Many, if not all the now essential programs or
services can be identified and even provided by and through charitable
organization. Arrest the bad guys, put out the fires and fix the streets.
Expect and demand adult behavior from the citizenry. Read whatever you want
into the last part.
Cities and states and banks should be run by old scotsmen. People who neither
lend, borrow or promise money easily. People to whom debt is a personal
relationship. People who know bad weather always comes. I keep most of my assets
and liquid cash out of the United States because there aren't enough old
scotsmen running things.
In this country with all its checks and balances in government spending and
funding why aren't the arrogant politicians ignoring the laws and
perpetrating this fraud not being punished and thrown in jail?This
arrogant spending and waste should be met with criminal accusations and
convictions for the millions of lives they destroy by their actions.Utah is following this same arrogant path of destruction and all the warning
signs and red flags are fling like exploding 4th of July fireworks bursting in
the night sky.Risk and ambition is breaking down accountability and
responsible political leaders, Utah is on the fringes of destruction and they
don't intend to stop this criminal governemnt fraud. Utah is now 40 years
beyond even remotely trying to predict revenues for the next 40 years. We
don't even know what the yearly revenues will be and governor is spending
and kicking state debt down the road like its a game. We are a state of >3
million americans and half a million undocumented foreign nationals suckling for
indentured servitude.All is not well in Utah and this state of many
nations,(Mexico, Africa, China, Asia, Europe) all wanting their cut of the pie.
Hmmm, was a Democrat in the White House in 1929 at the beginning of the Great
Depression? No, Herbert Hoover a conservative Republican was in the White
House. Was a Democrat in the White House in 2008 at the beginning of the Great
Recession? No, George Bush a conservative Republican was in the White House.
Maybe it's just me, but I see a trend here.
Hmmmmmmm, was a Republican in the White House in 1980 when there were gas lines,
20% interest rates, and inflation going up. Maybe it's just me, but I see
the need for a conservative Republican in the White House. Not a Bush and
certainly not an Obama.
@Doug10So true. And well-stated. This is a fact that always gets passed
by. Thank you!
I think the rich are doing quite well with Obamanomics'-'it's the
poor that are getting killed by it.
Given that government services are being reduced in many areas around the
nation, people for their own sake need to be aware and learn to be more self
reliant.In part this means it is responsible to not depend 100% on
police to protect you or your family. A sheriff in Minnesota is recommending
people get gun safety training and then buy a gun due to the decreases in police
services.He said people can no longer count on police to be there in
a timely manner in the event a criminal is invading your house.