Utahns will vote for democrats when democrats reject the values that Utahns
reject and embrace the values that Utahns embrace. It's not Utah's
fault that it's a "one-party" state. Democracy is a
marketplace of ideas. Only one party is producing what Utahns want right now.
Yes we have 2 parties, Republican right and Republican light.
Does the San Francisco Bay Area (far more populous than Utah) have a two party
system? Barack Obama beat John McCain by 50, yes 50, percentage points in the
Bay Area. In Utah, John McCain beat Barack Obama by 28 percentage points. Just
to put things in perspective.
To Rifleman 10:56 a.m. Sept. 12, 2012"Could you, for example,
support a platform that allowed for abortions in the case of rape, incest, or
grave danger to the mother or fetus?"I know of very few
Republicans who don't believe that abortions are appropriate in the
situations you list. I certainly support abortions in those cases.Where do liberals ever come up with these bogus false concepts about
conservatives and their views on abortions?-----------------Take a look at the Republican Party platform. It opposes abortions for
ANY reason; no exceptions.
@Mister JAmusing, but not very accurate, in my opinion.On the whole, Libertarians would generally not be considered
"moderate" by any objective measure that I am aware of, and most
Libertarians self-identify as "conservative" (or as "19th Century
liberal", from whence they derive their name).Libertarians
almost universally subscribe to the Austrian School of laissez faire capitalism
and fiscal policy (or lack thereof), which is generally considered to be very
conservative. On the other hand, Libertarians bias towards absolutely minimal
government intervention means that they often are much less conservative than
Republicans when it comes to social policy(e.g., the legalization of drugs and
Susan,If Mr. Cooke were that qualified, he would change political
affiliation.Ugottabkiddn,30 years ago? Nope, it was 40 years
ago when the dems adopted a severe anti-family position (pro-abortion) and they
have been adding additional anti-family positions – the dems left Utah
before Utahans left the dems.Curmudgeon,Nice twist.
Congratulations on your creativity. Mike Richards spoke only of what his side
believes – he did not mock and twist what the other side believes as you
did. LOVE your example of the “tolerance” of the left.LDS Lib,I believe the word is “censured”, not
“centured”. Why do you not compare CA, ILL, or MA to those
totalitarian countries you list? They are as much or more 1 party states as
Utah. Oh, I know, they are solid blue.Rifleman,Libs come up
with bogus stuff because it’s often their only argument
re: Owl 7:21 p.m. Sept. 11, 2012"Utah has a 4 party system...
the moderates should get together."They have. They are called
Re: Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT"Could you, for example, support a
platform that allowed for abortions in the case of rape, incest, or grave danger
to the mother or fetus?"I know of very few Republicans who
don't believe that abortions are appropriate in the situations you list. I
certainly support abortions in those cases.Where do liberals ever
come up with these bogus false concepts about conservatives and their views on
Yes, Utah is dominated by Republicans just like some other "Red States".
On the other side, there are "Blue States" like CA and NY that are
heavily dominated by Democrats.I wonder if many liberals here who
express so much concern in Utah over its single party dominance would express
those same concerns if they lived in one of those states. I could be wrong, but
I think lots of them would be perfectly comfortable there under a political
climate that they agree with.
Utah has a 4 party system; moderate Dems and Repubs and wing nuts on each end.
If their candidate could ever make it through the primaries, the moderates
should get together.
UT essentially a "one-party" state? Of course. Despite the rhetoric about being politically neutral, Church-owned DN does its
best to promote the Republican Party candidates and policies.
Rifleman: I appreciate that you think Republicans look at the whole
package, but my sense is that for most Republicans, if a party's package
contains anything other than a complete ban on abortions, it doesn't matter
what else is in it. That is, abortion (and possibly gay marriage) are deal
breakers for most Republicans, are they not? Could you, for example, support a
platform that allowed for abortions in the case of rape, incest, or grave danger
to the mother or fetus (the LDS Church's position, BTW)? In
fairness, I would hope that you would concede that neither party is composed
solely of extreme ideologues, and that there is diversity of views in each
party. That there are Democrats who oppose unlimited abortion rights and
Republicans who support abortion in the case of rape, incest, or grave risk to
mother or fetus. And that there are members of both parties for whom the
abortion issue is not a litmus test, but one of many factors to weigh.
Speaking as a lifelong [longer than most posters here have been alive] Democrat
-- one whose pioneer ancestors thoughtlessly sat on the shady side of an outdoor
Millard County stake conference, and thus, were drafted as Democrats -- there
are many reasons why one may express a particular party affiliation.In my own case, I've successfully avoided thousands of boring political
discussions by asserting, "I'm a Democrat," watching with bemused
relief the horror and quick retreat such a statement often produces.I have little sympathy for or truck with most Democrat platform planks. But,
I've never harbored the deranged view that people shouldn't assume I
do from the company I choose to keep.Mr. Cooke -- an honorable and
decent man, to be sure -- seems to have forgotten that.I can attest
that one who affiliates himself with an organization harboring so many positions
inimical to views we hold sacred, starts out from a position of disadvantage.The burden's on us -- not voters -- to overcome the opprobrium that
naturally flows from our political choice.
@Tolstoy"your absolutist belief that a fetus is a life is not fact it
is your belief"WOW: I "believe" that is one of the most
callous and supremacist things that I have ever read.
@J thomas your absolutist belief that a fetus is a life is not fact
it is your belief, you cannot really argue that the person being executed is not
@mike richards Again Mike republicans believe in a god or mostly agree
with your God not The God. I know it is hard to imagine but you and republicans
do not have the corner on the market of The Truth.
Re: atl134 Salt Lake City, UT"So let me get this straight...
you're going to tell me that most Utahns vote based on abortion and gay
marriage?"No, you don't have it straight. Republican look
at the whole package of which abortion and gay marriage are just two elements.
Nice try but no cigar.
The CDC (Centers for Disease Control) has tracked over 50,000,000 abortions in
the United States since 1973. Of those, 2.8% were listed as being necessary due
to maternal health. So what about the other 97.2%? What reasons were given for
those abortions? Does it matter? Lives were extinguished while those lives
were nestled in the wombs of the mothers. There was no trial to see if that
"life" deserved death. There was no lawyer appointed to defend that
life. It was a unilateral decision. The "mother" decided to destroy
that life.You can dehumanize those lives, but that would dehumanize
you. Imagine traveling from the Mexican border northward to the
Canandian border through California, Oregon and Washington and finding every
house empty - no living person. If those three states were empty without a
living soul, it would be less than 50,000,000.Democrats cry great
tears for someone condemned to be executed. They stage "death watches".
They hold news conferences. They beat their chests and tell us that we have
become a babarian nation - yet they demand that any woman be allowed to destroy
the life within her.Utahns respect life. Utah is Republican.
@Mike Richards"Until we value life more than we value money"Last I checked one party was pushing forward healthcare expansions while
the other party said we couldn't afford it. One party is trying to reduce
the deficit by increasing taxes no higher than clinton levels, cutting defense
spending, and other spending cuts that are balanced... the other party wants to
reduce the deficit by severely cutting Medicaid spending (by a third) and
turning Medicare into a voucher program while defense spending increases and
@Rifleman"Why is it that those who believe in a woman's right to
have an abortion for any reason or no reason at all and those who support Gay
marriage flock to the Democratic party? What the author of this opinion piece
refuses to understand is that the majority of Utahns vote for the candidate and
the party that most closely is aligned with their beliefs."So
let me get this straight... after all that talk by Republicans that this
election is all about the economy and jobs... you're going to tell me that
most Utahns vote based on abortion and gay marriage?@Mike
RichardsThe Republican platform allows for no exceptions for abortion even
in life of the mother cases. Basically, an unborn fetus has more rights than
woman as far as Republicans are concerned. As for that God matter... as a
Christian I wanted the God language removed because we're a nation with
religious freedom and that language suggests favorability for a particular
religion which is wrong. "Republicans believe in self-reliance
and work."Democrats are the ones pushing for job training
programs and more access to education so people can actually be self-reliant.
When was the last time anyone saw a commerical, ad, or flier from Orrin
Hatch?Isn't he still running for Senate?Oh ya --
The SELECTION is over.He won the GOP nomination.And
that's all the SHEEple require.BTW -- Utah is about as
Politically imbalanced and One-Party System as;North Korea, Communist China, Islamic Iran, Communist Cuba, and Nazi Germany.Even Iraq and Afghanistan have more political balance
Mike R said: "And, most important of all, we NEVER tell a woman that she can
make a unilateral decision when the LIFE of someone else is at stake."Yes we understand the republican platform is that Women have NO say in
their own Health, even if their OWN LIFE is at stake. We also know that they
didn't allow a single woman to comment during the birth control debates
last year.50,000,000 Where do you get this number? Was this
last years total? Is this some speculative history of the world count?Is it just a made up number? (I suspect)Mike said: "They is
teaching someone to cheat the system." Who, the millionaires with
endless loopholes and offshore accounts? The corporations who receive
welfare while posting record profits?The politicians passing laws that
benefit their high dollar contributors, while destroying our children's
"Until we value life more than we value money, the political parties will
always be at odds"Are you suggesting that the Republicans
"value life more than money?". And THAT is why the parties are at
odds?And just when I thought we had a breakthrough.
Mike has built an elaborate set of stereotypes regarding what, in reality, are
very diverse groups of people.I wonder if Mike would be surprised to
learn that there are Pro-Choice Republicans and Pro-Life Democrats? That there
are atheistic Republicans and devoutly christian Democrats? That there are
Republicans who favor a broad definition of marriage and Democrats who favor a
traditional definition of marriage? That there are Republicans who hold the view
that individuals have a responsibility for the wellbeing of society as a whole
and Democrats who hold the view that individuals have personal responsibility
for their own wellbeing?In the meantime, the extreme partisan
imbalance in our state results in many elected officials who take the Utah
electorate for granted, who are ethically lax, and who generally exhibit an
appalling degree of hubris -- which is why I am an LDS, Pro-Life Democrat.
Let's read the LDS policy and compare platforms;The Church
allows abortion for its MEMBERS when:- Pregnancy results from rape or
incest, or- A physician determines that the life or health of the mother
is in serious jeopardy, or- A physician determines that the fetus has
severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive.- ...should be
considered after consulting with local church leaders.-------- The Democratic platform states: "Abortion is an intensely personal
decision between a woman, her family, her doctor and her clergy; there is no
place for politicians or government to get in the way."The
Republican platform seeks passage of a constitutional amendment that would
extend legal rights to the unborn, essentially banning ALL abortions with NO
exceptions -- even in the cases of Rape, Incest, Life and Health of the
Woman, and viability of the fetus.[running diametrically 180 degrees
opposed to LDS policy]. The LDS church has been soft on illegal
immigration and has encouraged gay rights (civil unions, domestic partnerships
for housing) BOTH of which the GOP has defiantly shotdown.Who’s being extreme?Who’s rejecting the Prophets and
Apostles?Who more inharmony?Who’s following the brethren?
It is not the people's responsibility to attract a party; it is the
party's problem to attract people.Utah used to be predominantly
Democrat; if it is not now, who's fault is that really?(Hint:
It's not the people's or ANY church's problem)
=======True!Utah was all DEMOCRAT at the time, since the
Republicans [Conservatives] hated the Mormons due to their unorthodox marriages,
women's rights, universal healthcare, Anti-Big Corporation and uber-rich
Businesses, our Socialist/Communist United order and many Social Programs
amongst other things.But Pres. Young knew their needed to be a
balance.Opposition in all things, Moderation in all things, Since Mormons didn't voluntarily spilt parties - he ultimately ordered
Stakes and Wards to spilt evenly right down the middle.The LDS
Church still advocates this balance.The LDS Church would prefer to have
members in both parties. “Both locally and nationally, the interests of
the church and its members are best served when we have two good men or women
running on each ticket, and then no matter who is elected, we win,” BTW - Only "Elder" Ezra T. Benson was the ONLY one who ever said
you can't be a Democrat and a good Mormon.He was centured and
reprimanded by the LDS 1st Presidency for it.But the cat was already out
of the bag, and Republican Mormons have been quoting him ever since.
To continue Mike Richards’ list:Republicans believe in
incorporating their brand of religion into government; Democrats believe in the
separation of church and state.Republicans believe in forcing their
version of morality on society; Democrats believe in free agency.Republicans believe in promoting war and boundless military spending;
Democrats believe in promoting peace and limiting military spending to
legitimate defense needs.Republicans believe in social Darwinism,
where every man fares according to the management of the creature; Democrats
believe in a social compact that requires the community to care for the poor and
helpless.Republicans believe in a tax policy that widens the gap
between rich and poor; Democrats believe in a tax policy that narrows that
gap.Republicans believe that wages should be suppressed, or jobs
shipped overseas, so that “job creators” can earn 300x what their
employees earn and stash it away in offshore accounts to avoid taxes; Democrats
believe that honest work should be rewarded with a living wage.It's a sad commentary that so many Republicans subscribe to such
"principles" and "ideals."
JoeBlow,I guess it all depends on what you value most in life. If
you're more concerned with taxes than you are with 50,000,000 mothers who
decided to end the life that they carried, then perhaps the Democrat Party
reflects your values.Until we value life more than we value money,
the political parties will always be at odds. Some think that
"compassion" means that we "give" everyone what they need, but
that is not compassion. They is teaching someone to cheat the system. The
"system" is clear. We eat our bread by the sweat of our brow. We care
for our families. When possible, we extend help to those who are truly in need;
but, we NEVER teach people to NOT work. We NEVER teach people to abdicate their
personal responsibility to repay their debts. And, most important of all, we
NEVER tell a woman that she can make a unilateral decision when the LIFE of
someone else is at stake. 15% of those invited into life by the actions of a
woman and a man were destroyed. The total population of California, Oregon and
Washington is less than 50,000,000. Think about it.
Yes, there are good people in the Democrat party. But some of the ideals
supported by the Democrats are things with which many Utahns disagree.
It's as simple as that.Governor Herbert supports a party
platform that the majority of Utahns agree with. I don't find that at all
Rifleman and Richards,You make good points. If my top issues were
the ones that you mentioned - Gays, Religion, Abortion I would be a staunch
Republican.So, I understand that Utah is a solid red state.It is when we start clamoring about all the other issues that I take
exception.Deficit, Taxes, Spending, Regulation, Socialism. The GOP
is far from a clear winner on any of these points. I base that on History and
what the Republicans actually DO, not what the platform says.
I learned at church that life is sacred, that people are responsible for their
own actions, that it's wrong to take what belongs to others, that work
should be enthroned as a ruling principle, that we should strive to be
self-reliant, that we should stay out of debt, and that temporal goods should be
provided in the Lord's way.Show me a political party that
promotes these principles, and I'll join it.I once tried to be
a Republican, but they ran the same deficits as the Democrats.
@ ugottabkidn, you nailed it exactly right.And being a one party
state actually hurts Utah over time and in the big picture.
This is Utah. Don't expect any miracles.
When someone decides to join a party, can't we also assume that they want
to promote the principles and ideals of that party? Between the Republican
Party and the Democrat party, we have two very clear choices. Republicans believe that life is sacred and to be protected. Democrats
believe that a woman has the right to demand that the life within her be
destroyed. Democrats believe that a religious organization should be forced to
dispense contraceptives and to perform abortions. Republicans
believe in God. Democrats voted to remove God from their platform, even though,
in a voice vote too close to call, the put God back in. Republicans
believe that God instituted marriage and that marriage is between a Man and a
Woman. Democrats want to redefine marriage to mean whatever the political winds
are blowing that day. Republicans believe in self-reliance and
work. Democrats believe that government created it and that some rich
Republican should pay for it - without requiring Democrats to work.Is there any doubt that the conservative people of Utah have no use for the
"principles" and "ideals" of the Democrat Party? Change the
party if you want Utahns to join.
Why is it that those who believe in a woman's right to have an abortion for
any reason or no reason at all and those who support Gay marriage flock to the
Democratic party? What the author of this opinion piece refuses to understand
is that the majority of Utahns vote for the candidate and the party that most
closely is aligned with their beliefs.
As for the presidential election, I think its a waste of gas to even go to the
voting booth. A vote for Romney is secure. A vote for Obama is a waste. A
protest vote, is just that. WOrthless.
When one looks at the "battleground" states in the upcoming election, it
is hard not to be envious of the attention.Those people have a true
vote in the presidential election. And the candidates are wooing the voters.Utah (and many others)? Why bother. R's will get the vote
regardless and the D's would lose to Lassie. The "R"
candidates will only come for your $$. They already know they have your vote.
Quite frankly Susan, Utah is a one party state. The political system was
hijacked 30 years ago by emmigrants from other states. Working class values have
stepped aside for the quest to be Mittenized. Home teachers abandoned the gospel
of Jesus for the gospel of cash and pyramids. More than once I have heard the
phrase you can't be Democratic and a good Mormon. In the end, I really
believe in the goodness of our citizens but they prefer to be sheep. Hence, from
a state with some of the best voter turnouts has turned to the worst.