As has been mentioned here, when we are "charitable" through government
programs, there is a big question--is it "charity" when we pass a law
that FORCES OUR NEIGHBOR to give to the poor? In my opinion, no. If we as LDS
people are considering that question, my belief is that we should think back to
what happened in the "war in heaven". Whose idea was it to force us to
do good?Many will point to taxes that force us to pay for fire
protection, etc. I have no problem with that because we are getting the
benefit--if I am getting the benefit, then I should be REQUIRED to pay. When I
go into a restaurant and order a meal, eat it and then walk out, it is proper
that I be arrested and forced to pay for it. But how ridiculous would it be if
an officer of the law should walk into that restaurant and force me to pay for
the meal of the family at the next table because they are poor? On the other
hand, if I voluntarily pay for the poor family, I am being charitable--HUGE
Here's what Mormon Democrats don't understand: the hymn says "Has
anyone's burden been lighter today because I was willing to share?",
not "Has anyone's burden been lighter today because I made the
government share other people's property with them?" Wresting the
scriptures to promote income redistribution and socialism is a perversion of the
Gospel and of the Law of Consecration.
Senator Reid has no fiscal responsibility, how can we as a nation keep borrowing
money to give to people and countries that dont like ua? The debt the current
administration has created is totally out of control. To align with Nancy and
the rest of the Dems I just dont get it.
Republicans appear to be less charitable and less compassionate because of their
words. They judge those receiving govt. aid as lazy, "ner=do-wells." If
I understand it correctly, Republicans/conservatives believe govt. programs
create a large majority of lazy, unmotivated people. Why
doesn't UT, with its large percentage of LDS members, demonstrate to the
rest of the country how they can deal with problems of poverty etc. without
govt. support? There are many posting on these boards who believe we don't
need govt. programs and even some who suggest such programs go against the
teachings of the LDS church and God. Perhaps it could start with a single ward.
Members of the ward receiving govt. aid could forgo the aid and the ward could
be in charge of helping/supporting them instead. Finally, Democrats
don't support abortion, they support CHOICE. I used to believe that
Republicans cared about the unborn--until they began to oppose education and
expanding the availability of birth control. The problem we have isn't
abortion it is UNPLANNED pregnancy (and yes, promiscuity). If Republicans really
cared about the unborn--they would work with Democrats to decrease the number of
@Miss Piggie:Would you sit next to a Democrat in church? Or would
your "moral" outrage prevent that from happening? What if someone from
your ward needed your help and he or she was a Democrat? Your rhetoric suggests
that you would not be there for them. I hope that you would put your negative
feelings for the Democratic party and all of its LDS members aside and be a
person who is a Christian above all else. Here's another
question...Will you accept people in the church from other countries? What about
those that live in Communist countries and have been commanded to follow the
laws of their land? Do you want them excommunicated as well? The church would be
very small made up of only people from the United States who are Republicans.
Do you believe every word of the platform for your political party?
Every word? Do you do every single thing mentioned in that platform? Every
single thing? Well neither do I. Please don't tell me how I behave and
believe, because, respectfully, you don't know.
Craig Janis is disingenuous when he insinuates that Republicans are found
lacking when it comes to "loving their neighbor." People of
conservative mindset have long been known to contribute more of their time and
resources to humanitarian efforts than wealthier people of liberal convictions.
The fact is that the Democratic Party platform proposes spending an excessive
amount of the national budget on social programs which in turn encourage
dependency on the government for one's support. Nothing bears this out more
than the thousands of families reliant on welfare benefits for three and four
generations. And now that the work requirement is de-emphasized by Democrats,
the problem will worsen. Republicans believe in having an adequete safety net
for those who cannot care for themselves, and a vibrant economy to provide
employment for those who want to work. Four years of Democratic leadership has
failed to improve our economy, and in many ways has made it worse. As a result,
less people are working and the safety net becomes larger. (Read an excellent
article at Realclearpolitics.com regarding conservative vs. liberal giving.)
You can't just say you are a person of faith and expect that to be
sufficient. What is your faith in? Is it in Jesus Christ? Then why would you
oppose Him and support the shedding of innocent blood in America? Democrats
support abortion and thus you cannot be one of them without disobeying the Lord.
Don't tell me LDS values are consistent with current Democratic policies.
Anyone who believes that has either never read the Bible or just doesn't
care what the Lord has to say.
@Diane Earlywine"I do not want to put anyone down for their political
choices"Yes you do, if you didn't you wouldn't
continue your paragraph by suggesting your political choice is the Prophets and
Lords' will. @CBFalse, that church with the pavillion was
in New Jersey, a state that does not allow gay marriage.@Captain
Green"If they stopped to think about it, they would realize it was
Satan's plan to force us all to be good (Democrat strategy)"And yet your church seems to be a-ok with people being Democrats, liberals, or
even socialists (what? did you forget you have european members of the church?).
Makes me think they see things differently than you do as to whether or not
political parties can and should be considered in such a manner...
A number of these comments have spoken of marriage. I find it interesting but
inconsistent that liberty loving people actively support government regulation
and control of marriage. If you really want liberty, then become active in
getting government out of the marriage business. Let government be concerned
about civil unions and let social groups define marriage how ever they will.
Lets see, Dem values include abortion on demand, kicking out God and throwing
Israel under the bus. I am thinking that LDS values and Dem values are in
conflict with one another. ;)
First of all, Harry Reid himself has been attacking Romney in a disgusting
manner. Shame on him! Harry Reid is a BAD example to the LDS Church. Here's the deal NO one in the Republican Party has ever said that we
shouldn't love our neighbor. People whether Republican or Democrat help one
another. EVERYONE is there to help people during a disaster. For helping people
long term we do it differently. We believe in helping people stand on their own
two feet. Training them for jobs. The church believes that you need to be Self
Sufficient. Welfare for ONLY a short time not for a Life Time! The church also
DOES NOT condone Abortion. The church DOES NOT condone Gay Marriage. Removing
God out of the Democratic platform the church will NOT condone that. Read the
scriptures we NEED to STAND with Israel!Do your homework on Obama.
Don't be a spoonfed American. Read, listen. He isn't a good guy. While
I don't have a problem with past presidents on both sides. I do with Obama.
His ideals are in that of his father's. BAD.
We Conservatives are not against helping the poor. We are against a bloated,
out-of-control federal government bureaucracy doing the job. The job of helping
the poor belongs MUCH closer to the people. The other monumental problem
created by federal welfare is how those who are helped by the government become
pawns in the political process. They become enslaved to that political party
doing the "giving" (today, it's the Democrats). Enslavement of
this sort is NO different from the slavery that was, supposedly, abolished in
1865. Slavery, simply defined, is the theft of a person's labor, and,
thus, their ability to freely support themselves and their families. How any
temple-recommend carrying Latter-day Saint cannot understand this is beyond me;
particularly when we see how much more perfect our Church's welfare system
is than the federal government's.
@RGI agree with your points. I think the USA is a good country and
still a good government, although it needs to be taken back by the people from
the Lobbyists and Corporations. I don't think we can compare North Korea
to the USA. Paying taxes is not against the Lord's wishes--Render unto
Caesar what is Caesar'sOur form of government, a democratically
chosen representative form of government still serves its people provided the
voters ensure this happens.Not every government program is helpful
to the citizens--like subsidizing already very prosperous oil corporations with
tax dollars. Welfare was reformed by Clinton. We can work to make programs
better, but this Rand philosophy of everyone for themselves is not very
Christ-like.Some on this board say the Government shouldn't
force taxes that go to charity. I don't call Medicare, Medicaid, Social
Security or Food Stamps charity--I call it good governance. We should as a
society care about all of our citizens, not just ourselves. What about
"There but the grace of God go I". These programs fall under the
promote the General Welfare of the preamble of the Constitution.
It is really sad to see members speak so poorly of their fellow members based on
party affiliation.... all the while claiming to be following the prophet. I
would love to see an example of a modern day leader speaking in these kinds of
tones. It isn't hard to find examples where the leadership has admonished
members to not speak in these ways... Divisiveness, pride and hatred
within the church.... you would think there would have been warnings against
this.... oh wait, there are!
This feels eery, like the GOPride stories from Tampa.
I really did not want my full name posted on this, but could not change it. So
here goes anyway. I have been working very hard in continually praying, reading
my scriptures and working in the temple. I want to follow the teachings of my
Savior, Jesus Christ. I want to vote for those who are also do the same thing.
My prophet and apostles are firm in not supporting abortion or gay marriages. I
do not want to put anyone down for their political choices...we all have our
free agency...but as for me, I listen to what our prophet teaches and then study
it out for myself. I am on the Lord's side and will vote for the person I
can see is believing the same way as I do.
The quote from Craig Janis saying that "Republicans don't think helping
their neighbor is something to strive for" is just offensive. Many
Republicans do lots of charitable work. You should have been with me this week
helping a refugee family instead of increasing the national debt that our
grandchildren will be paying off to China.I honestly believe that
you can be a Republican or a Democrat and still be a faithful LDS. I don't
believe we should be spouting nonsense like Mr. Janis does.And FYI,
I have criticized both parties for increasing the national debt. Only the party
out of power ever wants to do anything about it.
re:CB"one Church had a lovely garden venue"Actually, a beach
boardwalk pavilion. – A state administrative law judge ruled in Jan
2012 that the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association violated the state’s
Law Against Discrimination when it denied Ocean Grove residents Harriet
Bernstein and Luisa Paster the use of its boardwalk pavilion for their 2007
civil union ceremony. The association had allowed members of the public to rent
the pavilion and had never before declined a permit other than for scheduling
conflicts until it received Paster and Bernstein’s reservation request.
The association rejected the couple’s application to use the space,
stating that civil unions violated its Methodist doctrine.The Camp
Meeting Association could have used the pavilion exclusively for its own
purposes. The judge found, however, that the association opened the pavilion up
to the public and thus was obligated to follow anti-discrimination laws.
Not sure why DN limited my posts to 3. re:Counter IntelligenceHey, I'm comfortable with my beliefs. But I go to church to
worship God and share in the good spirit there. As most people know the most
divisive issues are religion and politics. At church we share common religious
beliefs. But nothing changes the spirit more than when politics are interjected
into meetings/discussions either by leaders or members. I
don't judge your continued involvement in the Church nor those like
yourself who choose to leave. Life is a journey and there is only One who will
judge that journey.
I can't believe the LDS are listening to him at all. He almost hid who he
was until now, with Romney on the opposing ticket. I don't see how any
Believing LDS can be a democrat. Especially endorsing Barak Hussain Obama. That
man is dangerous. He wants the entire country depending on the government. I
believe, and most I know also, we should work for what we get, even if help is
needed, we should be able to hold our heads high that we earned that help,
instead of being handed to us like lazy slugs.
kargirl: Well in one of the states back east where gay marriage is
allowed, one Church had a lovely garden venue that they rented out for wedding
receptions, it was church property. A gay couple, filed against them when they
were denied the use of it because the church was not in agreement with their
behavior. The counts ruled against the church, and in turn the church closed
down this lovely reception area rather than bow to the demands of gay and
government. Don't think that that won't happen. It already has with
Obama's mandate against the Catholic Church and birth control, and the next
step will be abortions in their hospitals.
A platform that eliminates God, free to kill babies, the government gives us our
rights, not a single word about getting out of debt and planned parenthood
passing out condoms with anti Romney-Ryan slogans on them. They must have super
rationalization genes or have invested so much emotional energy in their Party
that facts no longer matter to them. Do I smell folks mesmerized by a modern
Cap'n Green - serious questions:Do you believe church means it when
it states: principles compatible with the gospel can be found in the platforms
of all major political parties? If not, why? Can you give examples of any
other official statement you believe the church has made only for
appearances?Does it offend you that there are laws that reflect
commandments against murder and stealing? How do they differ from laws
that reflect commandments to help the needy?Why does is bother you that
the government "asks" you to do what the Lord has already
"asked" you to do. You already intend to do it. Keep in mind you
don’t get to judge the recipient or outcomes – you are judged only
on input. All are commandments that you are free to disobey. Which is
worse: jail (for breaking the law) or hell (for breaking the commandments)?
@Wildcat:You said: “The 12th article of faith is a good scripture in
supporting government and in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.”
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that all government is good. Would you
feel obligated by God to support the dear leader if you lived in N. Korea? In
this country, supporting government means trying to change bad law.You said: “King Benjamin served his people. His government served its
people.” Yes, but King Benjamin was a prophet, and the government
was a theocracy. You said: “Many government welfare programs
are created to help serve its citizens.” Yes, that was the intention, but
it is not always the reality. You said: “I don't think
God will care in the end how you helped people by charity or paying taxes, just
so that you did it.” Rather, God requires us to be charitable. Charity
goes far beyond monetary donations, however.
Yeah, it's "Have I Done Any Good?' not Has the Government Done Any
Good?" Any Latter-day Saint who thinks they belong in to modern-day
Democrat Party is forgetting a fundamental distinction, between society and the
"Just when I think we MIGHT be ready for prime time as a church, I read
these posts and see all you people trying to pretend like God is on your side
and everyone else is going to Hell. I'm a lifelong Republican, but some of
you are so contentious and self-righteous it is sickening"English translation: "I judge you to be judgmental"BTW:
LDS Liberal; you offer the most ironic posts on these threads to be offering any
advice regarding ideological rigidity.
What these misinformed LDS Democrats fail to realize is that we are obligated as
individuals to help the needy through voluntary donation of our time and
resources... BUT it should never be done through the forced process of
involuntary confiscatory taxation! There is a HUGE difference and that is the
crux of the matter. This is apparently not understood by these well-meaning
members. One way is very good... the other way is evil through and through. If
they stopped to think about it, they would realize it was Satan's plan to
force us all to be good (Democrat strategy), but Christ taught us to do good of
our own free choice (Republican plan).
@Truthseeker"It is becoming harder and harder to maintain
activity."Please cut the victimhood, every day everyone has to
make a choice about what they believe. If you cant rectify your beliefs - then
choose what you believe - don't blame others.As a homosexual
that refuses to play into the hard left victim melodrama of the stereotypical
gay activist; I am not particularly sympathetic to those who whine that it is
soooooooooo hard to be a politically correct leftist
Kargirl,You are out in left field. I've never heard one
Republican advocate that those who truly need the help shouldn't have a
safety net in the government to provide for that. We can all agree that is
needed. What is ridiculously out of control is this "cradle to grave"
mentality, fostered by the Democrats, to provide for themselves a built-in voter
base. The more people dependent on welfare, the more votes for them. So they
waste billions of dollars supporting people who have nothing else wrong with
them except laziness. They pay for their cell phones, they pay for their
satellite TV, they pay for their video games. I've seen lots of these types
of people living off the dole. My sister married a guy from a long line of
welfare grubbers. Honestly, it's the saddest thing I've ever seen.
There are few things that demand our pity more than a person who can do for
themselves but won't. And the Dems are the ones providing them their fix.
Well, the reality is that the gravy train is coming to an end, either out of
political will or bankruptcy.
Why do some of you have kind words for Harry Reid? Lets be truthful, he's
nothing more than a crooked politician who is helping Obama destroy this great
nation. Sadly he's a member of the LDS church. If he was a man of true
integrity, he would openly denounce the platform his party has chosen to
support. A platform the scriptures and our church leaders have always told us to
avoid. Those of you that support his behavior also lack integrity.
""Members may choose to use resources in the community, including
government resources, to meet their basic needs. The bishop should become
familiar with these resources.""Even when Church members
receive assistance from non-Church sources, the bishop should help them avoid
becoming dependent on these sources."And for the non-members,
with whom as all brothers and sister, where do they turn. Does those we care
about end at the churches walls... That surely wasn't Christ's
example. Are you saying the church should pick up the difference... really?KVC - you asked "How is it possible, if your stats are correct, that
these restrictions can't get any Democratic support in Congress?"
Are you saying the polls are lying? Is not even conceivable that a vocal
minority is controlling the governments agenda - on both sides, like the Tea
Party has done to the Republicans. Just as the Tea Party doesn't speak for
all Republicans, those that lean most left don't speak for Democrats as a
whole. There are plenty of fiscally conservative democrats, and moderate or
progressive Republicans. It is not a black or white world. As a
Republican, does Limbaugh speak for you?
The Church has made the following public statement on multiple occasions prior
to major elections: “Principles compatible with the gospel are found in
the platforms of ALL major political parties. While the Church does not endorse
political candidates, platforms, or parties, members are urged to be full
participants in political, governmental, and community affairs.”The Church does not:• Endorse, promote or oppose political
parties, candidates or platforms.• Attempt to direct its members as
to which candidate or party they should give their votes to. This policy applies
whether or not a candidate for office is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints.• Attempt to direct or dictate to a government
leader.============= You either sustain the Brethren in
this, or you don’t.If you reject what they’ve said – and
insist that Republicans are all right and Democrats are all wrong, and should be
“ex’d” as Miss Piggie and many others have said or implied in
this thread, YOU are in fact the very ones guilty of Rejecting the
Prophets and Apostles. [per Mormon’s warnings].
The comments I read here against LDS Democrats are the very reason it is
difficult to be one. I have been very thoughtful about why I feel the way I do,
and I assume that Republicans who have posted here have done the same. Please
let us respect each other and support one another. I anticipate that soon the
comments will be, "Well, if you don't like the Republican party as a
Mormon, just go ahead and leave the church." I know that is not what the
Brethren would say; they are inclusive, not exclusive, as is the church. If you
hate me that much and would want to wound your brother or sister in such a way,
perhaps you might want to re-examine your hearts and perhaps ask me why I feel
the way I do. I will do the same for you.
CB, I looked at the Democratic Platform, and it part of the Marriage Equality
plank--which doesn't state anything about law change, simply support of
equality in marriage, states that religious sacraments for marriage will be
determined by those denominations in accordance with their beliefs. I had also
heard this said a couple of times before this, and by President Obama when he
first spoke on his feelings about it and answered questions. He made it very
clear that it was his intent only to say how he felt, not to make law about
it.I hope this clarifies this point for anyone who wondered. I also
would like to say that I, too, find myself thinking, having watched the other
convention, now seeing this one, and watching all the rest of this stuff, that
it does make me feel, as a Dem, and LDS woman, it's all about free agency a
la War in Heaven.
I know the leaders of the church have said that it is ok to be one or the other.
Both sets of my Grandparents were diehard Railroad Democrats. And President
Faust was a leader in the Democratic party. However I think a new statement
needs to come out from the leaders of the church. The Party is not what it use
to be. They have gone so far to the left in recent years with the party
platform. Wanting to completley take God out of everything. Christaians are
looked down at to members of the party. I know you dont have to agree with all
polices in order to be part of it. But come on as far left as they have gone in
the past 5 years I dont see how anyone with a clean consious can support a group
with those beliefs. But that is why we were all given our free agency and have
the ability to choose either its right or wrong. I do believe that Joseph Smiths
prophecy of the Constitution hanging by a thread is taking shape right before
our eyes. If its upheld its goint to be Romney that does it.
Harry is a Mormon.Obama is American.I'm superman!
Re:atl134AmenIt is becoming harder and harder to maintain activity.
Here, people dont think twice about bringing politics into our church meetings.
I think the church-owned Deseret News contributes to the belief, held by
many Mormons in the U.S., that one cant be a good church member and a Democrat.
I can't figure out why the Church claims political neutrality but then does
the opposite with its newspaper. Is it just lip service?
@BSU BroncoThe 12th article of faith is a good scripture in
supporting government and in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.King Benjamin served his people. His government served its people. Many
government welfare programs are created to help serve its citizens. I want to
pay unemployment insurance in case I ever lose my job and to help others who
have, I want to help support the overall health of the citizens (there but the
Grace of God go I). I don't think God will care in the end how you helped
people by charity or paying taxes, just so that you did it. I think "Render
unto Caesar what is Caesar's encouraged supporting government.Why support a party that doesn't want government to serve its people but
is more than willing to give Big Oil our tax dollars, have corporations control
politics instead of people, etc.?Where much is given, much is
expected...except in the Tea Party, where much is given, less is expected, and
the much is sent overseas to protect it...with building interest and to avoid
taxes. Doesn't sound like the New Testament to me!
From these remarks, I'm glad some of the writers haven't gotten their
way. In spite of all I could do, I'm one of those who just didn't get
the American Dream--I got the not such a great dream version, the one with
nothing to write home with, much less about, so to speak. And a lot of these
writers want to take what medical care I do get and my SSI and let me get
whatever I can from some fairy godmother. Thanks. I wasn't complaining
about my dreams not happening, but it would have been nice not to have folks try
to make me feel worse for taking all their money. Do you have any idea what it
is like? Having a health issue that just won't disappear and sometimes
scares people--even its owner--is not a dream come true. But it can be lived
with. Even laughed about. Some of the convo here, though, gets pretty
insensitive. There is no way to help people who don't have other ways to
deal with the situation that is chronic except by government assistance. You
would let them fend for themselves.
I dislike all this bickering between the major political parties. I keep
hoping, in this information age, we could just vote for who we want without
depending on a political party to set forth our candidates for us.In
spite of all the mudslinging on both sides, I believe Pres. Obama and Mitt
Romney both have our country's best interests at heart. The main
difference is the methods they would employ to "do something good" and
"help others."Biased, ever since President Clinton was in
the Oval Office, I became convinced that "the best man for the job is a
woman," but no woman closely related to Pres. Clinton in any way was good
enough for me either.The current state of economic failure plaguing
our nation has caused me to soften my attitude and support the candidate who I
believe is most uniquely qualified to get us out of this mess. I
happen to think that the ACA at over 1,024 pages is way too large, for example,
whereas the 2006 MA ACT healthcare bill at less than 100 pages, including what
Romney vetoed, was large enough. Romney's vision more closely
matches my own.
@Miss Piggie["Should LDS members who vote for democratic candidates be
allowed temple recommends?"No. And they should be
ex'ed.]How about you write that question in a letter to a
General Authority and see what kind of response you get? (I already know what
the response would be but you're not going to believe me saying it after
BSU BRONCO:Wasn't the War in Heaven fought over the principle of
Agency? The Democratic Party promotes Agency - the right for people
to make their own choices and does not force anyone to have an abortion, marry a
person of the same gender, etc.Why doesn't the modern
Republican Party trust people to make their own choice?
Craig ClarkBoulder, COaware,How will you feel if it
turns out that Reid's allegations against Romney are true? The only thing
Reid did that I have a problem with is that he wouldn't identify the source
of the charges. Both Romney and the public have a right to know that. If the
charges are true, then Reid performed an invaluable public service.12:34 p.m. Sept. 5, 2012============= Agreed.Well said.Even long time Romney supporter Jon Huntsman SR. said
Romney should release his taxes.BTW - Rumor has it, that might just
Harry Reid has risen to party leadership when everyone in the Party knows that
his stance on abortion is in line with the LDS stance: exceptions in cases of
rape, incest, or health of the mother. Unlike the Tea Party, the
Democrats don't have a purity test to ensure all think the same and do the
same--sounds an awful lot like Lucifer's plan in the preexistence, but I
guess it's a good model to follow for running a political party?When Obama came out on his support for Gay Marriage, Reid issued a statement,
"My personal belief is that marriage is between a man and a woman. But in a
civil society, I believe that people should be able to marry whomever they want,
and it's no business of mine if two men or two women want to get
married," Reid said.He stood up for marriage but acknowledged
individual freedom--I don't see any wrong in that. With separation of
Church and State--government will not be able to tell church's to perform a
gay marriage.Harry Reid is a great example of the LDS Faith--strong
I can't help but think about how the Republican party has been treating its
own members to not be so surprised at how it wants to treat "the least of
these" in this country. When some states wanted to have their primary
conventions earlier, their party found ways to punish them, either by not
allowing full measure of delegate counts or turning them into "beauty
contests". They had two instances where the counts could be done correctly
and there were concerns as to why. Candidates who were not far enough to the
right were ousted one way or the other, and called "RINO"--Republican In
Name Only--and being called a moderate became an epithet that lost primaries and
elections. And this is how their own were treated, those already with money and
power. I believe this is what is really standing in the way of a real discussion
among voters and candidates about platforms and having an honest election this
time. True, most elections are hotheaded to some degree, people get excited. But
this one is almost coming to virtual civil unrest. It's childish and
rediculous. Adults are using schoolyard names--can we grow up?
I am glad that some positive attention has been paid to LDS Democrats. It is
the misunderstanding of many that the LDS church is a Republican church. No.
This Church professes to follow Jesus Christ and it's leaders urge us to
vote for those individuals who we feel confident will support our ideas and
values (nothing in the wording about any particular political party being the
answer to that criteria).I know Republicans and Democrats who are
good, honest people. I also know both Republicans and Democrats who are less
than upright in their language and deeds. Rather than identifying ourselves as
LDS Republican or LDS Democrat, we should maybe identify ourselves as people who
are trying to follow Christ and who vote accordingly --- for which ever party
they feel will represent their ideals and values.Let's not
fight each other on these issues. Instead, let's fight corruption,
violence, poverty and mistreatment. And let us find, or become candidates who
will do just that.
@worf"LDS values do not include lies."Well then you
sure as heck can't support Mitt Romney when there's literally 19
minute compilations of him flip-flopping.
re:KVCDidn't do your homework? The Partial Birth Abortion
Ban Act was passed by Congress in Nov. 2003 and then signed into law by Pres.
Bush. Harry Reid was one of 17 Democratic Senators that voted in favor of
the ban."Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Vote to pass a
bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as
"partial-birth" abortion. Those who performed this procedure would then
face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is
performed on are not held criminally liable. This bill would make the exception
for cases in which a women's life is in danger, not for cases where a
women's health is in danger."
It is quite obvious why only 8% of LDS members consider themselves liberal and
liberal members have a 50% activity rate... it's because you conservatives
self-righteously judge them all the time. Church is supposed to be something
uplifting, not a source of frustration. Church leaders emphasize that being of
any political party is okay but no, apparently words of your leaders isn't
good enough for you.
Just when I think we MIGHT be ready for prime time as a church, I read these
posts and see all you people trying to pretend like God is on your side and
everyone else is going to Hell. I'm a lifelong Republican, but some of you
are so contentious and self-righteous it is sickening. It's like leaving
your kids alone in a room after a peaceful moment and you come back in to find
them at one another's throats. Where is the Christ-like
tolerance and respect for each others' viewpoint? Do any of you honestly
think you can browbeat and threaten others here into thinking like you?? Just
what are you hoping to accomplish with this arguing?
Wow, there is a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth by the usual
conservative suspects on this board who take it on themselves to "steady the
arc" from the Lord's anointed prophet and apostles.I
believe there is good in both parties, and as a whole, since more members are
outside the U.S., the LDS religion is not represented on a majority by either
party.From comments on this board, I can now understand why the LDS
church made it a point to try and get members involved in both party
caucuses--to avoid this belligerent diatribe being unchecked and made to look as
it is how most LDS members feel.Let me assure you--THEY DO NOT! The
Tea Party, in my humble opinion, is about as far from the teachings of Jesus
Christ as you can get.Let me flip the coin on some of you. How can
any self-respecting LDS be Tea Party and expect the poor and working poor to
suffer most of the burden so the ultra-rich (like Pharisees) can have even more?
Check out the scripture below for His thoughts.Mark 12:41-44
There are probably many Mormon Republicans who share Miss Piggie's views.
In our area people don't think twice about voicing their political views in
various church meetings--nothing changes the spirit faster than politics. Yes,
it is getting harder and harder to maintain activity. Deseret News just
feeds/perpetuates the belief of many LDS members that the Democratic Party is
aligned with Satan. If church leaders were really concerned about political
neutrality the LDS church-owned paper would be less partisan. The fact that it
isn't leads me to believe political neutrality isn't really the goal.
Perhaps political neutrality is just a statement meant to safeguard one's
tax exempt status. UT Brit is correct. Anybody who believes the
church could take care of the needs of its members without a govt.-church
partnership isn't dealing with reality. Of course, leaders will urge
people to be thrifty and self-sufficient but that doesn't mean they are
advocating for the demise of govt. programs. (except maybe Ezra Taft Benson
whose brother was the president of the John Birch Society in UT).
I have always struggled with this. How can you be a member of the church, hold
the standards and values that you do but still consider yourself a Democrat.
Everything the Deomocratic party stands for. Abortion, gay rights, same sex
marriage, contridicts the standard and beliefs of our faith. The church has the
best example of redistribution of wealth. Give to others because you want to.
Help others in need becuase thats what the Savior taught. Not becuase our
goverment tells us too. Would a Democrat please explain to me how you balance
Utahbluedevil:If your assertions are correct, how is every attempt to
place those restrictions you mention get shot down by Democrats if most or
almost most support them, and the vast majority of Republicans support them. It
is evident your stats are incorrect. If they were accurate, we would have more
restrictions on abortion than are currently in place. Even Harry Reid won't
allow a ban on Partial Birth abortion to pass, and I know of only a very small
minority of Dems in congress that would support the restrictions that you say
are supported by the majority of dems. How is it possible, if your stats are
correct, that these restrictions can't get any Democratic support in
Congress? And why does even Jimmy Carter criticize the Democratic position on
abortion?If most Mormons are liberal or moderate, why do they vote
so conservatively? Just look at Utah politics for evidence. Mormons vote
overwhelmingly conservative. Most of the "democrat Mormon Leaders" were
Democrats when Democrats were much conservative. I can find a
plethora of ideas in the Democratic platform that are contrary to LDS teachings.
What can you find in the Republican platform that is contrary?
Uncle Charles and UT Brit,Some relevant quotes from Providing in the
Lord's Way:"Church members are responsible for their own
spiritual and temporal well-being. Blessed with the gift of agency, they have
the privilege of setting their own course, solving their own problems, and
striving to become self-reliant.""When Church members are
doing all they can to provide for themselves but still cannot meet their basic
needs, they should first turn to their families for help. When this is not
sufficient, the Church stands ready to assist.""Members may
choose to use resources in the community, including government resources, to
meet their basic needs. The bishop should become familiar with these
resources.""Even when Church members receive assistance from
non-Church sources, the bishop should help them avoid becoming dependent on
these sources."I hope this provides some clarity.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other
people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
aware,How will you feel if it turns out that Reid's allegations
against Romney are true? The only thing Reid did that I have a problem with is
that he wouldn't identify the source of the charges. Both Romney and the
public have a right to know that. If the charges are true, then Reid performed
an invaluable public service.
UT Brit,"area authorities told us to make sure that people were
signed up to government programs. The church would not be able to handle the
welfare needs of its members otherwise."I don't doubt
that's the case. I think any suggestion you're not following Church
directives is outrageous and unfortunate. In countries where the government is
bigger and there is less disposable income as a result I'm sure fast
offerings are meager. In the US, where a lot of tax dollars go to education,
you're crazy (or wealthy) not to send your child to a public school. The
Church has to adapt to any country's system obviously. But I think that
speaks in favor of less government, where more contributions can be made of
one's own free will.Jeff 10:14 p.m. Sept. 4, I wish we had more
individuals like you in the GOP. I see the Democratic party as becoming
increasingly hostile to Judeo-Christian values and we need more temperate voices
in the GOP.
@Uncle CharlesOkay, lets make sure no members around the world are
on government assistance. Can the church foot the bill for medical, mortgage,
utility bills, carers for the disabled, childcare, transportation, food,
clothing, care homes, you get the idea. How long would the church be able to
sustain this? Again this is not in Utah, I am talking about the world. How much
time have you spent living in other countries?You sound like you
know more than my area presidency, could you call up the Apostles and let them
know please?"I don't know why the gospel isn't
followed in your ward/stake"You have no idea how wrong you are
about this, in fact I know the first presidency would strongly disagree with
you. Do you know more than them?If people who come to get church
welfare they will have been to their families first, whats wrong with that
statement?If this were a perfect world, there would be no poor and
everyone would be taken care of. This is not a perfect world.
Miss Piggies comments makes me feel ill. Unless a member votes Republican, in
her words, they "should be ex'ed". According to Pew Research, 56%
of Mormons lean liberal or Moderate. The 44% think you all should be kicked out
of the church, evidently. According to miss piggy, a local stake President
should be ex'ed.Must be nice to have the insight to make such
broad sweeping statements.Then to the comments that Democrats all
support abortion on Demand (the justification for the comments above)"A recent Gallup Poll found that 84 percent of Democrats agree with Rep.
Crawford and support informed consent. According to the same poll, 60 percent
of Democrats support a 24-hour waiting period, and almost half of Democrats, 49
percent, support an ultrasound requirement."Hardly what miss
piggie says all Democrats want. A CBS poll found;"27 percent
say abortion should be allowed only in the cases of rape, incest or to save the
woman's life. Another 10 percent think an exception should be made only to
save the woman's life. One in 10 thinks abortion should never be
permitted."Doesn't fit Miss Piggies narrative, does it.
Facts, not Rhetoric.
Furry1993: I don't support murder, theft, or polygamy personally.. That
said, my question is: whether I feel those decisions are right or wrong, wouldnt
the christian thing to do be supportimg their agency? By voting in a party that
restricts ones ability to exercise their agency like in the case of murder or
pedophilia, doesnt that defy the entire purpose of christ and the
crucifiction?Does that really sound reasonable? Abortion is
considered murder of a baby by a large portion of people, especially those with
religious convictions. Most of the people who support gay marriage also oppose
polygamous marriage. Where is polygamy in the Democratic platform with gay
marriage if they are truly about equality, agency, and not pandering? If Dems
are about agency, why are they so big into compulsion and regulations?Here is a simple synopsis of Democratic beliefs:Abortion of inncent
babies okay, but execution of convicted murders is barbaric.Gay marriage
okay, polygamy, even if for religious reasons, barbaric.Requirement of
free birth control for all a basic right above that of freedom of religion.
Making people pay for birth control the same way they have to pay for all other
There is no way I can even look at the picture of Harry Reid after all he has
done to denegrate the Church, our doctrine, our leaders and the horrible exhibit
of speaking from the well of the Senate to direct lies about a fellow High
Priest. Party membership is one thing, but what Hsrry Reid is involved in is
evil. He is the role model of the Gadianton Robbers and Corrupt judges we are
now studying. I come from a family of both parties - NEVER have I heard in my
life comments such as his and I am 72 years old. I have written Meridian and
the Church News on not "highlighting" Hsrry Reid, it is misrepresenting
all that the gospel holds dear. Sorry this is so blasting - but I cannot watch
him get a pass - from anyone.
If Obama wins will we see demands that Gay Marriage should be performed in ours
temples? That the government will disallow tax deductions for offerings and
donations to the church? That our year supply should be placed on our
front porches to be distributed as they deem necessary?Obama has already
overstepped his authority on the welfare law passed by Congress and which should
only be changed by Congress. He has begun rule more like a King than the
President of the United States. Mormon in his book gave us a perfect
example in the 'Freemen and the Kingmen' problem that the people
dealt with. If that doesn't sound like what we are experiencing, it getting
mighty close to it. If Obama wins we can expect ever greater intrusion into our
lives and property.
There's a huge silent majority of LDS out there in the middle--who are
embarrassed and appalled at much of the actions, aims, views and rhetoric of
How refreshing that the issue of Mitt being LDS has not been an issue at all
this election cycle. The Obama campaign hasn't touched it, neither have
other parties. Good to see one party has the right idea that it makes no
difference what religion a candidate is.Clearly nothing like the
McCain campaign, and the Republican henchmen, who STILL refer to Obama as a
Muslim!Class from one side, continuing disrepect from the other.
UT Brit asks, "Do you not think that people go to their family first?"
Every meeting I've ever been in with bishops, stake presidents, Area
70's and Q12 that is the direction given and they have stated that is the
first question that should be asked.I don't know why the gospel
isn't followed in your ward/stake but it is in the many wards/stakes
I've lived in here in the states. I'm not sure you are
giving a solid or accurate assessment. In fact, it sounds like you have a chip
on your shoulder. Oh well
Dear UT Brit:You are comparing apples to oranges. Your form of
government philosophy does not match with that of the US. There is nothing in
any manual that says to counsel members to go to the government. I've had callings (would never consider them "high") in the ward
and stake where I saw all the funds coming in and going out and had to sign off
on checks. There are some wards that are in more need than others but in the end
it all balances out. If a ward runs out then the state funds step in. If a stake
was out of fast offering funds then it would draw from the church.All excess funds are sent to the church for that very purpose. If members
actually followed the counsel of the church then we would have our years supply,
3-6 months of cash etc. 5 of the 10 virgins were prepared and 5
weren't and they were all members of the church. The church is
completely consistent in the teaching of provident living. Maybe you guys on
that side of the pond should start following it?
It is interesting how both Mrs. Obama and Mayor Castro both preached to the
young people and students about their influence with the two issues that Senator
Reid has supported and will support in the future, even as a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He must have a hard time speaking
at BYU and answering questions that skirt his beliefs. He has 5 1/2
more years for the people of Nevada and the United States of America but
hopefully not as the Senate Majority leader after the November 2012 election of
the U.S. Senators in the other states. Thanks to the Senators that change
parties due to not wanting to leave such a plush job that is paid for by the
people of the United States of America. Their influence with the lobbyists make
them more money, when they leave their positions and can take the influence
money with them.Obamacare took a toll on Senator Reid but not on his
election last fall by the people of Nevada. They voted for him but also want to
take the Snake Valley water for their enticing city of water falls, shows and
@the hawk:"By voting in a party that restricts ones ability to
exercise their agency like in the case of abortion, doesn't that defy the
entire purpose of Christ and the crucifixion?"Abortion is the
taking of a human life which is unlawful... Thus, those who engage in abortion
should actually be incarcerated where they then would able to exercise their
free agency. Christ's crucifixion applies upon true repentance which
includes restitution. How is a life taken to be restored?Another
poster made this astute observation: 'Infanticide, gay marriage,
atheism/secularism, perpetual government dependance, and mercy ahead of justice
(illegal immigration) are directly opposite of core LDS values.'
@Miss Piggie"No. And they should be ex'ed."Smart thinking, wipe out most of the membership of the church
overnight....."No. Rape and incest are crimes."Life begins at conception right? Why should the child be punished for the sins
of the father?"Much of those on gov't welfare just sit home
not making any effort to get work."This does not sound like
anyone I know who are on church welfare."To save Church
resources."That does not make any sense, if people are saying
the church takes a hardline that the government should not be involved with
peoples welfare the church should be doing all it can to make sure they come off
it. In my experience it is the complete opposite of this. Do you not think that
people go to their family first?
Heaven knows the Republican party and Mitt Romney have their warts, and I'm
all for helping those who can't help themselves. But I just can't get
my head around how a Mormon, or any other Christian for that matter, can embrace
a Democrat party that espouses government paying for abortion on demand.
That's the big stopper for me.
I am a Mormon independent who has voted Democratically. I am not a party member
because I do not want to fully support the platforms of either parties. I do
believe that Utah needs more bipartisanship and I tend to vote more
democratically because I feel they share my views more often than Republican
Nominees. It offers a alternative with more moderate views as an escape to the
extreme right wing movements presently occuring in the Republican Party. Just as there are Republican representatives and voters who do not
support anarchist grass-root politics there are Democrats who do not support
complete pro-choice initiatives and other policies known to belong to the Left
Wing. Voters and Politicians should not be condemned because of certain aspects
of a party's platform and unfair stereotyped blanket statements of a party
and its members.
If we truly took care of our fellow man, and had no poor among us, we would not
need our government to do it for us. But we don't and never will so we do.
UT Brit:"Should LDS members who vote for democratic candidates
be allowed temple recommends?"No. And they should be
ex'ed.How could anyone be allowed in those hallowed structures
who support abortion as a method of birth control? "Should the
LDS church change its stance on abortions as it does allow them in some
circumstances?"No. Rape and incest are crimes."Is the church able to take care of the welfare needs of the members of
the church if they went off government assistance? (in my stake this would be a
huge no)?Much of those on gov't welfare just sit home not
making any effort to get work. They refuse to work for minimum wages, take a
job not in their occupational field, or live frugally. If they were to use
Church welfare instead, their numbers would likely reduce substantially because
Church authorities would require they work at something, be frugal, etc."Why does the church advise those who need welfare to sign up to
government programs?"To save Church resources. They are also
told to first look to families as a first line of assistance. This last point,
if adopted by the government, would save billions.
Great reading. As a citizen of the country, I support giving tax aid to needy
citizens when there are no other means. That said the first responders for
individuals should be and has always been, family first, church next, government
canco,".....Frankly, I don't know how anyone can be a
Mormon and a Democrat."Being a Mormon was no obstacle to Brigham
H. Roberts being a Democrat. This member of the First Council of Seventy was the
first Mormon ever elected to Congress. The House refused to seat him because he
was a polygamist.It was no obstacle for Heber J. Grant. I trust
you've heard of him. Also Spencer W. Kimball. He was active in Democratic
Party politics for years before switching to the GOP. Remember Hugh B. Brown, a
counselor to David O. McKay in the First Presidency? He was a Democrat whom
President McKay sent to represent the Church at the funeral of JFK in 1963. I
should also mention Hugh Nibley, scholar and loyal Democrat who fiercely
defended FDR’s New Deal and in the 1960s became an outspoken opponent of
the Vietnam War.The list is much longer if you care to do some
If Senator Reid is the face of Mormon Democrats then I cannot be a Democrat. He
is dishonest and underhanded. I can respect a civil debate about
policy differences, visions of the role of government etc. but his unfounded
accusations regarding Romney's taxes were beyond the pale. The NYT later
published a story that Rmoney did in fact pay taxes for the previous 10 years
based on deductions evidenced in his current filings based on prior years'
filings. I only hope that one day he publicly apologizes for those statements.
Harry Reid has simply found a way to make a living -- principles are immaterial.
He will say or do whatever is necessary to maintain his lifestyle. His recent
comments about Romney not filing taxes for ten years show how low he will stoop
to keep his job.
The mention of, or references to God, is barely evident, if not totally purged
from the Democratic National Convention - INTENTIONALLY and PURPOSELY!
Let's have Reid and his gang of twenty four (?) reconcile that with LDS
values! And don't try to tell me that it has to do with "church and
state" issue! BALONEY! Democrats are becoming more and more GOD-LESS! For
example, Michelle said that same sex marriage is an American dream, etc., etc.,
These LDS democrats value their politics more than their religion. Reid is the
Since when is it governments "job" to take care of our every need? Our Founding Fathers envisioned LIMITED GOVERNMENT, where people were
free to live as they saw fit. Neighbor helping neighbor, without government
involvement. Demoncrats want people dependent upon government for their every
want & need. They abhor self-sufficiency & self-reliance. Government,
i.e. Demoncrats, merely use the poor, the elderly, & the less educated, to
promote their Socialist agenda.Before government entitlements were
enacted, churches & other civic groups fulfilled the charitable needs within
their community. They built hospitals & homeless shelters, fed the hungry,
& took care of widows & elderly. Much like things the LDS Church &
other churches still do. Over time, government assumed the role of caretaker of
the less fortunate -- as a means to make them dependent on government &
garner votes from bleeding heart liberals. Entitlements take away individual
liberty, making people slaves of the government!Today, it is not
uncommon to see several generations within the same family on assistance. This
proves government's incompetence & inefficiency when it comes to
helping people. It simply breed dependence & addiction. "Where's
my welfare check? It's my money, you owe it to me, & you can't
take it from me!"
I just wish Hilary Clinton had won the nomination. Although I disagree on
policy with the Clintons, I KNOW they love America and want America to remain
the strongest nation on Earth.Obama's role models are all
anti-American. His founding fathers are NOT our Founding Fathers. His wife
said she was never proud of her country until her husband was elected. Her very
words. Our current President does not love our country. Period,
end of story.
It seems unfair or inaccurate to use the church or its leaders for political
purposes by stating that some general authorities are democrats. This statement
is political and leads the unwary reader to think that they must be missing
something in the current political debate. The LDS Church is completely
non-partisan and must always be so. It is just as bad to say some general
authorities are Republican or whatever party as to say some are democrat.
To the hawk 9:52 a.m. Sept. 5, 2012Im an independent with an honest
question. I dont support abortion or gays personally. That said, my question is:
whether I feel those decisions are right or wrong, wouldnt the christian thing
to do be supportimg their agency? By voting in a party that restricts ones
ability to exercise their agency like in the case of abortion, doesnt that defy
the entire purpose of christ and the crucifiction? I believe both parties are
corrupt but would love some insight here.-------------------The adversary proposed a plan by which everyone would be compelled to be
righteous. That plan can be seen in the plank of the Republican platform
dealing with abortion and with the proposals of the Republican Party -- having
the government force her decision. Pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion.
It's possible (and easy) to be both pro-choice and pro-life. Pro-cho8ice
means keeping the government out of the decision, and letting the woman together
with those with whom she chooses to consult to make the decision. That is what
free agency means.
It is a huge fallacy that Republicans want to do away with welfare support for
those who truly need it. The reforms they propose are to get rid of the massive
fraud and abuse of the system. But it is clear from their actions and policies
that the Democrats want as many people as possible dependent on the government
dole. They don't care about abuse of the system, even though it is costing
us billions of dollars a year. The more people who are dependent, and the more
the Dems can convince people that they will take care of them, they create for
themselves a built-in voter base. The motive isn't to care for the widow
and the poor and needy. The motive is a lust for power and control of billions
of dollars.I personally believe that nothing at the federal level is
very efficient or effective. Caring for the poor and the needy is much better
administered locally and through churches who are in a much better position to
determine who is truly in need and who is just lazy and looking for a free
handout. Provide for needs, not handouts.
To dung beetle 9:12 a.m. Sept. 5, 2012Would this be the same Harry
Reid who a month or so ago told a very transparent lie about fellow Mormon Mitt
Romney's taxes? Instead of "Have I done any good in the world
today?" he should have sung "Have I told any more lies about Mitt
nothing to indicate that Senator Reid has told any lies about Mitt, and a lot to
indicate that Mitt has some real problems with how he handled his taxes.
It's becoming more and more clear why Mitt doesn't want to release his
to the Hawk and Spydyee: (I sent in a similar comment last night and it never
showed up): You both say that to outlaw abortion is to limit others'
agency. There are actually people who have advocated that it should be legal to
kill a baby up to 1 month old (post birth). I'm not making this up. Should
we pass laws against infanticide, or should we allow others their agency to kill
babies? I can maybe see allowing people their agency to use drugs, but not to
kill babies. Abortion is a bit less extreme than killing month old babies, but
the argument still applies. In the Old Testament, God commanded that sabbath
breakers bestoned. Was God wrong in commanding them to be stoned, since it would
violate their agency?
Thanks, ChemicAl for reintroducing civility into the discussion...not.
I tried to read the DNA Platform, but had to quit. My blood pressure would not
take it anymore. You see, I can't stand hypocrisy.When I got
to the part about "OBama's All of the Above Energy Policy," I just
had to quit. Gas prices have more than doubled under his short 4 years in
office. And he wants it that way to force us all into midget cars. His
Administration is forcing the Navy to experiment with biofuel at $32 a gallon,
while military personnel are hurting in housing and cost of living raises.
Solyndra goes bankrupt raiding taxpayers of over $500 million dollars.... Oh,
and the management were Obama's contributors. What about Coal?
His EPA is shutting down coal plants, when USA gets about 80% of its
electricity from Coal. That will cause huge price spikes in years to come. But
then, he's so smart and we're dumb. We need to be "forced" to
be environmentally correct, don't we. So no, I couldn't
even continue on to read the rest when I saw the document for what it is... a
completely unreliable spin document meant to deceive.
Im an independent with an honest question. I dont support abortion or gays
personally. That said, my question is: whether I feel those decisions are right
or wrong, wouldnt the christian thing to do be supportimg their agency? By
voting in a party that restricts ones ability to exercise their agency like in
the case of abortion, doesnt that defy the entire purpose of christ and the
crucifiction? I believe both parties are corrupt but would love some insight
I find it very funny that the same people who last week were claiming that they
did not completely agree with the official GOP platform are now unilaterally
condemning Mormon Democrats for the official platform of their national party
leaders. But then again, I always catch an odiferous whiff of hypocrisy when i
check out DNews. The people in these posts make me sick as they sit there and
pass judgement that is only the Lord's alone upon their fellow man. I am of neither party. I do, however, find myself leaning towards the liberal
side of things. Harry Reid is no more or less of a political hack than Orrin
Hatch or the golden child himself, Mitt Romney. To cast a blanket statement
over all of us because of the few is unfair and wholly unchristian.
It is BIC not BOC! Come on! Surely you know this!
Harry Reid is as much the face of a good LDS person as Abigail Hunstman...
Please as an entity never make this mistake again!
Some brief, random thoughts on the article and the comments come to mind:1 - The gospel net gathers of every kind, hence the wide variance of
opinion, right or wrong.2 - There is that little thought of the wheat and
the tares growing together.3 - There is that little thing called the
"War in Heaven" that is most certainly continuing here on earth and is
most pronounced in our day.4 - One can very readily see how things sorted
out in the pre-earthly existence and how folks can have such wide opinions and
sort out along a continuum of right to wrong.5 - Socialism is socialism -
there was a time when President Benson, who must be turning over in his grave,
said that one could not in all good conscience be a communist (i.e. socialist)
and still be a member in good standing in the Church.6 - Socialism is
meant very specifically to look like, sound like, feel like the law of
consecration, hence its ability to deceive even the very elect.No
doubt some will agree and some will disagree with some or all of these
observations - what a surprise.
Counter Intelligence you said:"the Democratic party has been
hijacked by extremists", and the republican party hasn't? Both parties
are full of extremists, that is the problem. One should maybe look within
before one criticizes the other party. Apparently we have already forgot Mike
Huckabee's repeated reference to the LDS religion as a cult. This is a
view widely held by many evangelicals, yet you are willing to overlook that?
Lets also be honest, many evangelicals are very likely to stay home in November
rather than vote for a Mormon which ultimately may cost Mr. Romney the election.
This is not a defense of the democratic party, because I personally
find many of their positions indefensible. For me at least I find the
condescending nature of the republicans to be much more offensive than some of
the misguided policies of the democrats. Extremists and the lack of
civility which the republicans are equally guilty of is destroying this country.
How about we debate the issues instead of lobbing inflammatory statements back
As one who voted for Gore, Kerry and Obama, I respectfully disagree with Mr.
Janis---there is a difference between Mr. Romney and Mr. Harry Reid: the former
is against same gender marriage and the latter is for it (or at least wants it
legal.) I will be voting for Romney this year, thank-you very much. Mr.
Reid is like William Clinton, Obama, Biden and Schumer of New York, all
attorneys who put the Constitution above the Bible: these men put popularity
over their faith, and it is sad. Secularists. If a party helps the poor, then
I will respect them, I feel the Democratic party is shifting from helping the
poor, to worshiping the law degree, university power, media power, etc. Enough
is enough. People slowly and gradually show they don't believe in the
Bible, nor in principle, nor in morality by the obsession to be equal in all
things under the wonderful Constitution. There is a higher law. Romans 1:22
"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." I know the GOP
isn't perfect either, I would like to see many in the Utah delegation work
for a corporation at least once in their life.
Would this be the same Harry Reid who a month or so ago told a very transparent
lie about fellow Mormon Mitt Romney's taxes? Instead of "Have I done
any good in the world today?" he should have sung "Have I told any more
lies about Mitt today?".
What Kool-Aid are people like Sen. Harry Reid drinking? Liberal Mormons who buy
into the Obama-Reid-Pelosi argument remind me of the circus performers who ride
a pair of Lippizzaner stallions with one foot on each in hopes they stay
together, side-by-side. They delude themselves into thinking that they can keep
a foot on each horse and stay safe. Either they don't read and understand
the scriptures (See D&C 98) or they have failed to take a hard look at the
actual policies of Obama's party and have fooled themselves into believing
what comes out of his teleprompter. Sooner or later, these people will have to
jump onto one horse or the other because they're not going in the same
direction.This is not the Democrat party our grandparents voted for;
this is not the Democrat party of John F. Kennedy. This party has been hijacked
by 60s radicals like Frank Marshall Davis and by haters of America like George
Soros. You can't ride both horses; just wait until Obama's friends
release their anti-Mormon messages of hate. Choose wisely.Gregorio
@CatsI have served in high callings at a ward and stake level, area
authorities told us to make sure that people were signed up to government
programs. The church would not be able to handle the welfare needs of its
members otherwise. I have had the misfortune of doing the math for the stake and
it does not make for pretty reading.One ward in a less affluent area not
only wipes out the fast offerings from that ward for people on welfare but also
wipes out the fast offerings from the rest of the stake, now what happens when
another ward has families who are in trouble? By the way the families in those
circumstances are already getting government assistance...... start to imagine
where the church starts helping out on rent and mortgage payments, it gets a lot
worse I promise you.All this pretty talk of self reliance and
pulling yourself up by your bootstraps that the deseret news pumps out flies in
the face of what the church actually does. How many Bishops have you heard of
that have told members to come off government welfare so the church can help
Dear Payito: You are right. Utah is the most Republican state and it is also
the most giving of any state for with time and charitable contributions.
But...we do it voluntarily--not because we are forced!
I am not LDSStill don't know why anyone would vote for Obama or
Harry Reid: the Democratic party has been hijacked by extremists who don't
realize that they personify everything they despise (i.e Al Sharpton, Rahm
Emanuel, Sandra Fluke, Dan Savage)
I was a democrat for years, but I heard the leaders with my spiritual ears and
they want us to vote republican, our country is in trouble. so I am, if its not
Are there LDS values that unites with the Democratic platform?. Some yes and
some no. Yes on being good stewards of the earth and renounce war. No on
abortion and gay marriage. Government should help those in need is not really a
direct LDS value but a inference being we want a compassionate society and
government has a role in this endeavor. It is really a matter of political
philosophy not theology. I am a Democrat not because of my faith mainly but by
my experiences and rational choices. Our mandate as LDS is to establish the
just equitable cause of Zion where there is no poor among us which is mainly
done through voluntarily consecration and cooperative economics. We should see
each other not as Democrats nor Republicans but being united in this cause for
all us are invited for this purpose in His kingdom. We can find common ground .
Google in Mormon Zion Project for further reference.
How can Janis say that Republicans don't care for their neighbor? That is
a lie and very insulting to all caring and giving people of this state. Words
like that only cause division and should be avoided.Craig Janis is part of
the problem of polarizing the people of this state and country.
The posts in here reveal how diverse Mormons are in their views. Conservatism
has been the political face of Mormonism for so long. Now Romney’s
candidacy is prompting Mormons to speak out in a way that mirrors the national
partisan divide in the country. Some General Authorities may be alarmed by that
but I think it’s a healthy sign that Mormons are American to the core and
are not the brainwashed dupes of a cult as some critics believe.
Dear UT Brit:I have personally never heard of the Church advising
members to sign up for government programs. All I have EVER heard the Church do
is advise members to rely on themselves. If they need help they should go to
family or the Church, but NOT sign up for government assistance. I know there
are members who do utilize these programs, but I have NEVER heard of the Church
advising them to do so.Read the Church's publication,
"Daughters In My Kingdom." It was published at the direction of the
First Presidency. It couldn't be more clear that the Church is counseling
members to be self reliant and NOT to rely on government.
To equate values with the Democrat Party is an oxymoron. In order to put LDS
values into the Democrat platform they would have to destroy the platform and
start again. Don't waste your time thinking a platform that is secular and
amoral would ever admit any suggestion about LDS values when they they have just
eliminated the name of "God" in any part of that platform. If they wish
to incorporate LDS values in any political platform, they need to become
Harry Reid has bought into the Obama's principles that are not gospel
principles. I agree that the Hymn he wanted them to sing was trying to massage
his voting for the past six years. If you vote for 99 things good to make
people believe you are looking out for them and then blast one bill that takes
away all those 99 good ones hoping that no one will notice the fine print, that
is not good. Government has the function to provide for the safety and welfare
of the nation. The term welfare is not meant to be to handout everything to
people and become like the nation in Hunger Games. That society would sacrifice
children for the joy and pleasure of their society. It was disgusting to hear
an ex-Governor of a state call and state that everything that another
ex-Governor has done in his life was evil and that the other ex-Governor was
lying about everything in his life. That ex-Governor who spoke must be a very
bitter person but displayed what many in the Senate leader's party members
also believe and practice. For a first day it was not uplifting.
I just have to state that I used to see Harry Reid in Hall of Congress every
day. We used to say "hi" to each other all the time. Even though I
didn't agree with him, I still thought he was a good man.Harry
Reid's behavior toward Mitt Romney has been completely shocking. How he
could attack a fellow Church member, priesthood holder and good and righteous
man who has devoted his life to the gospel and given millions of dollars to to
Church and other charities, is shocking.I can no longer deny the
truth about Harry Reid.
@spydeeNo one in my church forces me to pay fast offerings. I wish
I could stop paying so many taxes. Another huge difference is the church treats
that money sacredly and they don't waste huge amounts. There are
requirements to getting help from the church. They expect a person to do things
for the help. It has never been used to help someone get elected Bishop or
Stake President. To all you LDS democrats. How will you feel when the time
comes, that Romney looks like he'll win, and Obama/Axelrod bring out the
"Nuclear" option and go after your church?
I agree with President Hinckley's remark that we need good people in both
parties. Unfortunately, the Dems have made it just about impossible for most
Mormons to be in their party and they have no one to blame but themselves.As to Harry Reid and those at the Dem's convention....Denial is not
a river in Egypt.
I consider myself an independent but a registered Republican. I have many views
that are similar to the Democrat Party such as environment conservation and
other things. But, with the new outlined Democratic Party statement of beliefs,
I do not see how an LDS person can overlook so many issues that the Democratic
Party supports that are clear violations of LDS doctrine. It seems that LDS
Democrats are justifying their membership in a Party by saying that they
don't believe in the of the same issues that the Democratic Party does.
This is like saying the movie I watched was great except for those couple of bad
parts. After a while we realize that we just should not have watched the movie
in the first place.
Whenever I see that this group start disagreeing with the Democrat Party on
issues like abortions and marriage, I will take them more seriously. I wish we
did not have a party system. The warnings of George Washington are so applicable
today. But if we want parties, neither the Republicans or Democrats accommodate
btw...there are many great LDS members and leaders in other countries who ARE
Socialist, Liberal Democrats, left-of-center or whatever. A Stake President in
Europe once asked me what Romney has against Europeans. Take care
what you say, my fellow LDS. Our brothers and sisters are reading our comments
out there and this contention makes no sense to them whatsoever!!
Infanticide, gay marriage, atheism/secularism, perpetual government dependance,
and mercy ahead of justice (illegal immigration) are directly opposite of core
LDS values.Sorry Dems, "What good have I done today"
questions our individual responsibility to succor those in need not, abdocation
of personal responsiblity in favor of habitual institutional dependance,
redistribution of individual wealth and, social engineering. The adversary is
sneaky. Remember "By the sweat of thy brow"? I don't
recall seeing "by the sweat of someone else's brow"?
@Baccus0902It does no good to force charity. The gospel of Jesus
did not include compulsory giving. It is to be willing. I give a good sum of
money, time, and support to those that are in need. I do not believe that the
constitution gives the government the right to redistribute my money. My
representatives are not looking out for my rights given under the constitution,
they are instead are inventing new rights for the "I want" crowd.
Truthseeker SLO, CA Democrats don't seam to understand freedom either, the
Democrats want to order us to do things, order us to pay for abortion in our tax
$'s order us to buy heath insurances order us to give up our Gun's,
order us to violate our religious freedoms, Catholics were order to provide
contraceptives and abortion insurance to thous who work for them.
Just so I am clear, it is not ok to take my money (taxes) and provide services
and assistance to the poor, but it is ok to take my money (taxes) and provide
money for oil companies who are making record profits every quarter. I
certainly think that is a value that all Christians can get on board with.
@ worf....."LDS values do not include lies." Are you serious?
Wow...I can't imagine Pres. Hinckley OR Pres. Monson endorsing any of your
comments RE Jesus is a Republican OR a Democrat. Yet, so many of you try to do
just that. Like many of you, I find the party that agrees with my values, and
vote that way. We have a great country. There are honorable and dishonorable
people running on both tickets. Let's be more gracious towards those that
don't agree with us and not pretend you can't be a good member of the
church if you are _________.
Perhaps before we become judgemental about the Democratic we might ask ourselves
what kind of example we have set as Latter-day Saints. I always enjoy my once a
year visit from my Conservative Home Teachers, and they seem to have no problem
with asking me to help on a service project each weekend or occaionally more
I sing those words with great passion and conviction, then follow up by personal
service, day in and day out, even as a retiree on a fixed income. But my
humanitarian efforts are MINE, and not mandated by Executive Order, or mandated
redistribution of wealth. The real principle is the freedom to use your hard
earned resources where each person chooses to place them to help those in need.
Most of the time what people need is not dollars thrown at them, but a helping
hand, an encouraging word, an arm around shoulders, a soft shoulder and
handerkerchief. I believe that our efforts are to be acted upon in silence and
in anonimity, and the reward will be gven openly by the CREATOR, not by
Presidential Medals, or Congressional Medals or political appointments .
I have a few questions to some of the republicans who have commented:Should LDS members who vote for democratic candidates be allowed temple
recommends?Should the LDS church change its stance on abortions as
it does allow them in some circumstances?Is the church able to take
care of the welfare needs of the members of the church if they went off
government assistance? (in my stake this would be a huge no)Why does
the church advise those who need welfare to sign up to government programs?
@BaccusIt is a common misconception that the United States is a
democracy. The correct category for the form of government which we enjoy is a
federal constitutional republic." Though a constitutional
republic is not a pure democracy it necessarily has some democratic elements,
such as the ability of the people to elect a president (in the U.S. the majority
of the population is checked here too, as the popular vote of the people does
not necessarily decide the winner)."Also in response to helping
the poor needing to be enforced. when you seek to enforce charity, it ceases to
be so. When means of support is freely given there is no resentment. This is
spydyee"With regard to the Hymn and the government being the
means to that end I ask all of you why it is OK to pay fast offerings and
tithing to the church and have the church redistribute those finds to the needy
but not OK to pay taxes and have our government (of the people by the people for
the people) redistribute the funds.Very simple. So simple that a
sixth grader should be able to get it.. Fast offerings and tithing are voluntary
contributions. Government taxes, including income taxes and Social Security,
are not voluntary. If you don't pay up you could go to jail."That type of duplicity is illogical and breeds contempt and confusion and
those things are not of the Lord."I don't think you're
thinking clearly on this issue.
"The political attacks on Mormonism, he said, have come from the far right
wing of the Republican Party, not from the left."Remember
KJB1:"I'm sure most of the people here complaining about
the government 'forcing' people to give money have no problem with
Republicans inserting themselves into a woman's private health
matter..."Why you expect the American taxpayer to pay for your
contraception is a total mystery. Take $9 per month, go to your local drug
store and buy you own darn contraception."...or denying two
consenting adults the right to get married."Two consenting
adults can marry... so long as they are of the opposite sex... so says the laws
of the land... ans passed by a by-partisan congress and as signed into law by
none other than Bill Clinton.If you can go for two consenting
adults... would you go for three consenting adults marrying... or four?"And I'm sure those same people would understand if I were to declare
that they couldn't have any of the money I pay into Social Security every
month."Any such declaration is meaningless. Read the SS law."And yes, I'm Mormon. Sixth generation and BOC..."I suggest you give it up.
Today's Democratic Party = Huge Centralized Government. How is this
possibly an American value? More people than ever before are on food stamps.
Is this the 'hope' and 'change' that was promised? When, in
the history of the world, have governments, particularly huge, centralized
governments, NOT abused power? This isn't about LDS Dems vs LDS
Republicans. This isn't about Left or Right. It's about UP and DOWN.
Are we willing to give more power to a government that has put us $16 Trillion
in debt? When does this economic plan start working? At $20 Trillion? $40
Trillion? How much power is too much power?
@pp"...in 1967, as California Governor Reagan indeed signed an
abortion bill but...".1. reagan signed an abortion bill.2. over 2,000,000 babies were murdered as a result of the abortion bill.Period.You excuse reagans behavior because abortion was not
on the political radar?You write that after much consultation and study
reagan signed the bill anyway?With all due respect, your
rationalization for reagans behavior is astounding (cleaned up considerably for
We would have to change the words to make it accurate for LDS Democrats:"Have I forced anyone to do good in the world today?. "Have
force the rich to help anyone in need?"Helping people is a
pleasure. Being forced takes all the pleasure out of it.
>James Faust was strongly DemocraticThat old standard has been
refuted an uncountable number of times. The Democratic Party he belonged to when
he was politically active was nothing like the decadent, anti-liberty Democratic
Party of today.>tenets of Republicanism that are against the
Gospel You mean things like voluntarily helping the poor and needy?
Like being accountable for your actions? Like respecting the rights of others to
their lives, liberty, and property? Like keeping the chains of big government
off the people? Like rejecting Lucifer's plan to force people to be
"good"? Hmmm. I would recommend reading the Book of Mormon. Carefully
and completely. A significant portion of it is a treatise against exactly what
the Democrats have been doing for decades (and in some cases, for over a
century; FDR's Raw Deal, anyone?).
Now I remember why I could never stomach the Republican Party. It's true,
as a Democrat I am opposed to my chosen party's platform views on abortion
(which California Republicans support anyway) and same-gender marriage (which
many Republican/Libertarians support). But I honestly believe that government
has a place in helping the poor and indigent, especially those who are mentally
or physically disabled and who have no safety net like the Church.I
am willing to vote for Republicans, and I hardly consider myself an adamant
Democrat, but everytime I run into the Rocky Mountain Right Wing, I feel like
I'd rather be a Democrat than the independent I probably really am.The Church needs believing members who belong to Democratic Party, if
for no other reason than to point out to Republicans that there are as many
tenets of Republicanism that are against the Gospel as they wish to point out in
the Democratic Party, and if Mormon Republicans aren't careful, they will
find themselves believing more in the Party than the Church, something Mormon
Democrats rarely if ever do.
Democrat Hypocrisy is breathtaking. Democrats give significantly less to
charity than do Republicans. But Democrats want to use the bully stick of the
government to beat money out of productive citizen to hand over to the
government. That's corrupt.
truthseeker - you greatly misunderstand Elder Oaks comments, and you
misunderstand freedom vs accountability/consequences. he said we all have
freedom. He did not say that it is OK for you to take away freedom, or set
aside the consequences of your choices. The church leaders have made it clear
that laws are appropriate. You still have your freedom but when you abuse it
the law provides the consequences. The liberals are not trying to remove
freedom, they are trying to remove consequences - in other words they promise
absolution while creating totalitarianism. I think I have heard that plan
I would just like to clear up a certain lie told about Ronald Reagan and his
signing of an abortion bill. ThereYouGo would try and have us believe that
Reagan was a supporter of abortion. A minute amount of research easily found
that in 1967, as California Governor Reagan indeed signed an abortion bill but
leaving it at that is very deceptive. In 67 abortion was not on the political
radar and the bill was only supposed to allow abortion for "Life and mental
health of Mom, rape and incest". Sound familiar? That is the churches
stand. However, doctors took the mental health clause and stretched it far
beyond its intended purpose. Further, after much consultation and study Reagan
signed the bill because he knew it would be passed by the California legislature
anyway. He signed it because he hoped it would limit the excesses if it was
forced through the legislature. He and his democratic opponent were appalled at
the results. He said that it was his only major policy mistake ever and it
shaped his strong pro-life stance when he was president. I think thats called
The question this article really brings up is what is the proper role of
government? At what point does it become immoral to take money from others to
provide services to others. Conversely, at what point does it become immoral for
those with wealth to let those who are in need suffer needlessly.
The LDS Church is non partisan but encourages all to participate in the
political process. We can be good members of the church and be for any
candidate. So true are the words of Ronald Reagan, "We must be cautious in
claiming 'God is on our side" the real question is 'Are we on His
side". May we all, no matter what party we favor, seek to do the Lords will
and live His praise.
Every Latter-day Saint should read "The Proper Role of Government" By
Ezra Taft Benson. Every NON Latter-day Saint should read "The Proper Role
of Government" By Ezra Taft Benson. Among its many gems, the idea that you
would never dream of going into your neighbor's home and take his money, so
why would you elect a government to do it for you?
I tend to vote Republican. Also, some Republican social policies are more
compatible with LDS values. This is especially true given recent changes to the
Democratic Party Platform. However, the church emphasizes political neutrality
and so should we.Anyone who thinks you cannot be LDS and vote
Democratic should consider that that James Faust was strongly Democratic and he
was as good of a man as I can imagine.Whatever any of us may think
of certain Democrats or of some Democratic policies, if James Faust could find
something good there, we can be sure that there is something of value within the
Democratic Party.We should be careful about passing judgement on
others based on their party politics.
The headline should be clarified with regard to Democrat policies. They are
anything BUT democratic
spydyee:huh? we can't enforce laws? so if we believe it is wrong to
murder and someone else doesn't then we can't enforce our belief? how
do you spell clueless?
"Howell said his values as a Democrat stem from his faith.'That's what guides me — not party platform,' he said.
"I'm attending the convention to share my faith, and then I'm
going home."-----Well, if he's got any chance
of reconciling his faith with the party platform, he'd better work awfully
hard to rid the current Democrat Party platform of its support for (I'd say
tacit encouragement of) indiscriminate abortion on demand. Particularly
tax-payer funded abortion.No matter how you slice it, killing
children, whose only crime is being unwanted, is and will always be incompatible
with the LDS church and every other decent organization, religious or
otherwise.It's an unspeakable abomination.
Taking any reference to God out of their party platform certainly espouses
"LDS values" doesn't it? Frankly, I don't know how anyone can
be a Mormon and a Democrat.
How can a practicing LDS member support a political party supporting abortion,
and same sex marriage like the Democratic party does? Both priciples fly in the
face of LDS Doctrine. They may say that they do not support these platforms of
the Democratic Party but when they vote for a character such as Obama, they are
just strengthening the positions they say they do not support. Obama and the
other Democrats they vote for are going to further the cause of abortion and gay
marriage. How can they justify this position?
"The LDS churches philosophy is far different than the democratic view."
Really jasonlivy? What LDS Church do you go to? Certainly not the one I go to.
Every 1st Sunday I sit beside three hungry children on Fast Sunday. I see
parents struggling to keep their kids from 7 years old and up settled as their
tummies are hungry. The money for the meals that are missed are paid to fast
offerings. Fast offerings are there to help those in need. There are no time
limits on how long the church will help. There is not a carved in stone work
requirement however there is a service expectation at whatever level the
individual can serve. I know a family that has been receiving Church assistance
for over 10 years because they are all disabled. They serve in multiple callings
in the church. The church I go to is the same church that was on the ground in
New Orleans after Katrina. My church is the church that issued the call to our
stake which we gladly answered when we went to Alabama after the tornadoes
devastated that state. Not all churches do what we do so the government has to.
I am willing to bet that NONE of the Conservatives/Republicans making the
hateful, judgmental comments on here have ever READ the Democratic Party
To Baccus0902 – You have great intentions helping the poor via the
government, but please learn from history: the government is wasteful,
inefficient, and often corrupt. The welfare state has actually promoted unwed
motherhood. Liberal’s good intentions have indeed backfired, and
perpetuated poverty and dependence. Kudos to all who beat me to the
punch: socialism and government that approaches it is devilish, because it
removes freedom. What the LDS dems really want is the Law of Consecration, and
it can never be implemented by the government, but only by the Church among
those who have so covenanted. I couldn’t believe that one LDS
dem in the article said, well, we don’t accept abortion, just like LDS
Republicans have to reject the GOP lack of care for the poor. Baloney. The GOP
does care for the poor, and their policies actually help the poor. The liberal
“caring” policies only keep the poor, poor. That said, I do accept a
very limited role for the government as a true last ditch safety net.
With regard to abortion I do not believe that it is an issue that we have the
right to legislate. This is a place where the morals of the individual are in
question not the legality of the medical procedure. Let their churches stand in
judgement of their morals and let the government regulate the quality of the
medical procedure so that women, regardless of their morality have a safe
medical procedure. Also allow all women their agency. Try to remember that it
was Lucifer that wanted to take from us our agency. Jesus wanted to allow us our
agency even though that meant that some would not return to our Father in
Heaven. We, as followers of Christ do not have the right to enforce our beliefs
on those who do not believe like we do.
I started to list specific people that I wanted to address but I would have had
to list most everyone here.I decided instead to address the
issues.With regard to the Hymn and the government being the means to
that end I ask all of you why it is OK to pay fast offerings and tithing to the
church and have the church redistribute those finds to the needy but not OK to
pay taxes and have our government (of the people by the people for the people)
redistribute the funds. You are saying that socialization and redistribution of
wealth in the name of God is OK but it is not Ok if it is done by the
government. That type of duplicity is illogical and breeds contempt and
confusion and those things are not of the Lord.
To JRGL, The problem with having your freedom to chose the democratic platform,
is that several principles are in direct conflict with those taught by the LDS
church. I think it's called hypocrisy.
If one is trying to reconcile the Democratic platform with gospel principles,
one only need look to how the Church "mandates" serving. They
don't. Callings are issued, accepted or not, people are asked to bring in
meals, help, volunteer, etc. If there were a major catastrophe I don't
believe that the Church will REQUIRE everyone to bring their food to the ward or
Stake Center for redistribution. They will ask everyone to look out for their
neighbor. They will do WHAT THEY DO NOW - which means, the Church will ALWAYS
respect AGENCY. That is what the issue is here - AGENCY. When we
allow others (i.e. the government or anyone, for that matter) mastership over
our agency - in any form, we lose freedom. The agency to decide what to do with
MY BLESSINGS - is up to me - and with the guidance of the Lord, I will know what
to do. Why take that opportunity away from anyone?
It is clear from several of the comments here some Republicans don't
understand God given agency. Dallin H. Oakes: "First, because free agency is a God-given precondition to the purpose of
mortal life, no person or organization can take away our free agency in
mortality.Second, what can be taken away or reduced by the
conditions of mortality is our freedom, the power to act upon our choices. Free
agency is absolute, but in the circumstances of mortality freedom is always
qualified.Freedom may be qualified or taken away (1) by physical
laws, including the physical limitations with which we are born, (2) by our own
action, and (3) by the action of others, including governments."(Free
Agency and Freedom)
I seem to remember a commandment sort of like "thou shalt not lie".
Maybe if Harry Reid would release HIS tax returns so we all know he is perfect
and honest in all his dealings with his fellow citizens. Fortunately, I've
seen and heard enough politicians to know who is helping to spend us into
oblivion. Harry, Nancy and Obama make George W. Bush's over spending look
tiny. They now claim to be worried about federal over spending and the deficit!
Come on! No one can honestly believe that! Fire the empty chair and make Harry
the leader of the minority. Hopefully then, he can't do as much damage to
the nation as he has already.
Power and Humility are two colors that down run together in a true LDS
member.Sorry Harry, but the gig is up.
Brother Janis, Do you really think it is only the far right that holds us in
disdain? Every article Maureen Dowd writes in the NY Times disparages Romney
for his Mormon faith.
Ah. Nothing like Politics and Religion to bring out the cannibals.
"Mitt Romney has not paid taxes in ten years."--Harry RedThis is not true.LDS values do not include lies.Abortion is murder! Sorry Harry, but isn't LDS values either.
"Earlier today, the Democratic National Convention approved the party's
2012 platform, one that lacks any mention of "God.""That
was from another article today. Is it so hard to believe that a church whose
members can I say they know God lives would support a party who clearly wants to
remove God from everything? Any LDS person with any common sense would not
truly follow this party if they truly understood what it stood for. Taking God
out of a country when God is the reason it was built up is just asking for God
to get rid of our country, cuz who needs Him? Not the Democrats.
How is government dole compatible with any LDS doctrine?
@patsy "...fueling abortions to millions of
innocents...".Daily we see the republican party venerate ronald
reagan.ronald reagan signed an abortion bill that led to the murders
of over 2,000,000 babies.Outrage directed at Democrats.Yet, no outrage directed at republican icon ronald reagan.
Yeah, Satan wanted to MAKE everyone obey- and the Savior wanted us to have the
CHOICE!! The Democrats want to take away everyone's CHOICE and opportunity
to share and help others and make it a REQUIREMENT where lack of payment (tax
evasion) is punishable by prison. Thanks, but I'll take the SAVIOR'S
way of freedom of choice!!!
So sad. How in the world can any mormon who is truly committed to living the
gospel adhere and support a National Party platform that calls for (current
platform from Charlotte, NC). (1) Abortion on demand "regardless of a
woman's ability to pay" (translated: taxpayer funded). (2) Removed
any reference whatsoever to God or Diety (3) Supports government sanctioning
(and federal supremacy over state laws) to validate gay marriage (against Church
position and Proclamaion on the Family). That's just a starting point.Sorry, but singing Kum Bay Yah from the Democratic hymn book does not
cure the foundational deficiencies and immoral nature of many provisions and
policies of the National Democratic Party which starting in 1972, has been
hijacked by the extreme left wing in our country.Harry Reid is a
poor example of LDS values in the Senate. He has enabled the extreme left-wing
Obama agenda which is leading this country into economic and social ruin, and
those tenants put forth in the Proclamation on the Family which emphasize
traditional marriage, self-sufficiency and moral responsibility.
Have I voted to require others to do good in the world today?Have I
mandated that they help anyone in need?Have I given tax dollars to the
sadIn an attempt to make them feel glad?If not, I have failed
indeed.Has anyone's burden been lightened todayBecause someone
was forced, under penalty of imprisonment, to share?Have the sick and the
weary been helped on their way?When they needed my help, did I insist that
someone else be there?
Every active Mormon knows that there was a certain person who opposed the Father
and his plan and presented a certain plan in which he would force everybody to
do "good" (an impossibility, of course, since if it's forced
it's not good, as the scriptures make crystal clear).I rejected
that person, his followers, and that plan then, and I reject that person, his
earthly representatives, and that plan now as well.The Democratic
anti-liberty platform of coercion and control is diametrically opposed to the
Father's plan. Unfortunately, the Republican big-government platform (as
opposed to the Democratic huge-government platform) is in conflict with His plan
as well, just to a lesser degree.Vote for me. I'll leave you
alone to exercise your agency as long as you don't violate anybody's
right to his/her life, liberty, or property. Just as God intended.
My problem with the Democratic Party is not their stance on looking out of the
little guy. It's how they do it. I don't believe that 'cradle to
grave' entitlements are the way to go. A 'Nanny State' only
breeds laziness and dependency. The LDS churches philosophy is far different
than the democratic view.I agree with much of what the democrats
believe in helping our neighbor and looking out for others. Compassion is there
greatest attribute! I think we need their voice so it is part of the national
discussion.However, the majority of the Democratic platform goes
completely against my LDS beliefs! Pro gay marriage, pro-choice, taking God out
of the public square, over extended contraception, lack of support for Israel
and Jews, too much entitlement spending, taking away personal responsibility
(for example...the economy isn't our fault, it's Bush's), secular
(no God) progressive (getting rid of tradition) principles, relying on our inept
federal government vs the local church leaders for welfare, relying on our inept
federal government for anything!These items and more are too much
for me to ever consider becoming a Democrat.
Yes! About time we all realize that there are Mormon Republicans &
Democrats. Harry Reid is my hero. He's from the small town of
Searchlight, NV & a fellow alumni of Southern Utah University. I am proud
of the job he has done for our country. I'm glad fellow Democrats are
speaking up in Utah. The church doesn't dictate which political party we
are involved with. We have the freedom of choice within our religion.
I'm sure most of the people here complaining about the government
"forcing" people to give money have no problem with Republicans
inserting themselves into a woman's private health matter or denying two
consenting adults the right to get married. And I'm sure those same people
would understand if I were to declare that they couldn't have any of the
money I pay into Social Security every month.And yes, I'm
Mormon. Sixth generation and BOC...
King Benjamin, in the Book of Mormon, offered an outstanding model of leadership
& government. He served others & did not receive money for his service.
Mitt declined his paychecks as Governor of Massachussetts, & has stated he
would do the same when he is president.King Benjamin warned of
taxation-that high taxes are used for the greed & power of poor leaders.I feel there is a role for political leaders to encourage & foster
service & charitable giving, but not to tax to punish their enemies, or to
create class warfare & divide the nation. And not to take from one group
& give to another. And not to create a population of people who feel
entitled or dependent upon government assistance rather than the LDS
church's much better way of assisting those in need. Our
government should study & pattern it's laws & assistance upon the
LDS Church's teachings & methods. Neither party represents
a perfect platform. But I find the national democratic platform to be very far
from my beliefs.
Yes I am sure that Harry Reid and Craig Janis are way crazy for the Dem's
views on abortion, same sex marriage and the out of control debt ceiling.
It's true that many General Authorities were democrats in the first half of
the last century. I am a republican but vote for the constitution party
candidate. There is no real difference between the two parties because I feel
that they are lead at the top by the same people who have ulterior motives, so
they play one hand against the other and win eaither way.I believe
Romney is a man of greater moral integrity than Pres. O, but if he gets elected
will find that he is in way over his head. But I can't see how liberty
loving people could vote for anything democrat.
As a Christian I Cannot be a Republican.The words of the prophets,
Jesus, and his apostles tell us through time how to worship God. Not by Rituals,
or even keeping the Sabath as prescribed by the priesthood, but by taking care
of the poor, the hungry, the widow, etc.We as a country should be
one and take are of each other. Hopefully we will become a global community.@ Sand FleaWe have representaive democracy. When I support
my political leaders I do because they represent my principles. To properly take
care of the widow, or the orphan, takes more than just the good will of a few.
It requires that we as community, as nation, organize it and enforce it.We can give wonderful speeches about "if you give a man a fish he
will eat once. If you teach him how to fish he will eat always". Sounds
good, but how long does it take to teach a man to fish? Do we provide the man
with tools and knowledge? Or just give him a pamphlet on how to do it?Helping in a proper and consistent way takes a village.Senator
Reid is a great man.
"Has anyone's burden been lighter today, because I was willing (or
perhaps unwilling) to share?" but the government forces me to against my
will with the penalty being prison if I refuse. I loved the article from a few
weeks ago stating that more liberal states give far less in charity than
conservative states. One explanation was that they are more "willing"
to pay taxes to help their neighbor. Ah yes, but...conservatives pay the same
taxes (willing or unwilling as they don't want to go to prison) and then
give extra money as well. Helping others is very important. Free will is even
more important - even when not all will be charitable.When the Lord
asks us at the final judgment what we personally did to help the poor, I
don't think he will accept the explanation: "The proof that I care
about the poor is that I vote Democrat...I vote to take money from the rich and
give to the poor". Very generous - with someone else's money -
won't cut it for each of us individually.
toosmartfor you:key word "were general authorities" Past tense.
I'm sure October's General Conference will promote, gay marriage,
abortions, government dependency, and alienating Jerusalem and removing God from
the dem's platform. You just can't make this stuff up.
LaughableMakes me sick to see this spin.My church is not meant for
dirty politicsStay away please.Thx
What a picture. Harry, nice platform you and the dems promote. Good luck in
getting the Mormon majority. Little Harry is speaking about the rich. Harry, how
did you get your money?
The Hymn says, "Have I done any good in the world today?" a group of
some 200 Latter-day Saints sang enthusiastically in a crowded meeting room
Tuesday afternoon. "Have I helped anyone in need? Have I cheered up the sad
and made someone feel glad? If not I have failed indeed."The
keyword to consider is the word "I". It is a question which prompts self
reflection and action to self correct as necessary. What I have an issue with is
when people use government as the vehicle to use my money to do good that we
cannot afford. It is a matter of fact that we are running a serious deficit.
Even after we stop all the taxes cuts to corporations, end the wars, etc we are
still running a massive deficit. I want to help people personally
and I want government to do good for the people. Before we do this balance the
budget before we spend ourselves into oblivion all in the name of helping
Wonderful to see this continuation of the "Mormon moment." May the Lord
bless their efforts.
Mormon Democrats have a lot of rationalizing to do. Jesus NEVER taught that it
was the proper role of government to administer charity. He taught it as a
principle for individuals and the church. Republicans more closely adhere to
Jesus's teachings (not to mention abortion, gay marriage, deficit spending,
confiscatory tax rates, unfettered federal spending, etc.).
"...because I was willing to share..." other people's money.There's the rub, Harry. It stops being charity when it takes the form of
"to unite LDS values, Democratic policies" - Good luck with that!
I know it's hard to be LDS and a Democrat, but many have managed to do
that. The most notable ones were General Authorities. So I think the ides of
being for the ordinary guy is a virtue. I just am having a hard time (maybe
because I'm human, at least at times) squaring Harry Reid's singing of
"Have I done any good..." with his accusations of Mitt Romney "not
paying any taxes for a decade" according to Harry's 'undisclosed
sources'.In college I was a democrat because there were so few
in that party it was easy to get elected a state delegate and influence the
outcome. After some time I decided their national platform wasn't for me
and switched to being a republican. After they locked out non-party members
from voting in the Utah primary, I became an independent, where I vote for the
person, not the party. I have never voted a straight party ticket in my
life.Utah needs a two-party system for openness in government; DC
needs less corpuption and Chicago politics isn't going to produce it.Unless we do better, heaven help us all........
LDS values like "abortion on demand" and "gay marraige"? How do
you identify yourself as a LDS demo-rat knowing full well you are fueling
abortions to millions of innocents nation wide? "Better that a mill stone be
hung around your neck and you drowned in the depts of the sea than to harm one
of these little ones". Who said that ??
So how come this is pretty much the first time in the National media that Reid
is talking about his faith? So every time that Romney was mocked or disparaged
in some way about his faith, why didn't his fellow Saint come to his
defense and help set things straight? Me thinks there be a bit of politicking
going on here
The hymn says "I" not the Government...
Awesome, I am a Republican and sing those same words and feel the same joy in
helping others in need. I love to use my money to help others, then to have the
government use my money to help others.