I tried in a previous post to address my experience with Morman families not
allowing my children to participate in their parties etc...along with the
"heaven" issue. Got an email from DN saying it was off topic.
Although, others have brought this up. I hope they allow my post on my
experience with Mormans on the heaven issue. I was told by a person who I
consider a good friend (also a bishop's wife) that people like me (non LDS)
will likely go to "heaven prison" until I accept the LDS church. Then I
can move on to be with the others (I assume Celestial) I have many wonderful
friends who are LDS. I just don't share their views on religion and
SteveAngell53Salisbury, MDWe are on a Telestial Earth right now.In the Mellinium it will be Terestrial.Then at some point
Celestial.But we believe in Eternal Progression...============= Wait! Stop the Press....Gasp?!You mean - We as Mormons, we are PROGRESSIVES?!I knew all
along...but, that's what makes me a Liberal.
The problem for most people is not the NOTION of "Heaven". It's
when we start assigning people to different places.I'm pretty
sure their is a better, perfect Judge of us all, and Him, we are not.
I hope, when it comes to the Final Judgement, that I'm standing right
BEHIND Jeffrey Dahmer. :)
Having watched the entire 2 hour program I thought it was rather dopey and
"dumbed down" like most of network TV programming. The Mormon segment
was ok but it made Mormon doctrine appear much like any other Catholic or
Protestant doctrines dealing with Heaven which it isn't. Mormon Doctrine
is much deeper, loving, compassionate and fair and simply beautiful which
unfortunatly could not be presented in the time allowed.
The only ones that know for sure are the dead, and they're not talking.
We are on a Telestial Earth right now.In the Mellinium it will be
Terestrial.Then at some point Celestial.But we believe
in Eternal Progression and that two thirds of the Book of Mormon was sealed from
us. Thus we believe there is much we do not know. We do work for the dead of
all religious faiths thus we do believe people of all faiths on Earth will be in
Heaven.What is important is we accept Jesus Christ as our personal
Savior and do our best to live as he would every day of our life. If we do this
we will qualify for progression into the Kingdoms to come.We should
not concern ourselves much with what the degrees are. Just that we are living
as Jesus Christ would want us to.
Thank you to Barbara Walters, ABC's 20/20 and to the church for the
wonderful program. It was wonderful that our church was included in the program.
I loved that the celestial room was shown and that the celestial rooms are here
for all to enjoy. Thank you!Sincerely,Sister Debbie Adams(Wife, Mother and Grandmother)(Safford Sixth Ward, Safford, AZ)
This is wonderful. I can't wait to watch the broadcast.
I find the LDS version of heaven to be more advanced than the more traditional
views. Most Christian denominations have a dichotomus notion of heaven; either
you make it or you don't. A simple model, but not very useful or
motivating. It also implies that one can never improve in the next life. The LDS version is more continuous, based on the individual's
behavior, given the individual's opportunities. Yes there are the three
categories or kingdoms, but these are essentially discriptions along a
continuum. Thus, because of the grace of God, we have the opporunity to
progress based on our own decisions and behaviors. Another unique
feature in the LDS concept is one's status in heaven is not necessarily
static. Just as we make mistakes and have the opportunity to correct those
mistakes (repent)in this life, we will also have the option of correcting the
mistakes we have made in this life in the next life. Thus, there is always an
opportunity to improve ourselves throughout eternity.
@mg scott"For that reason alone, Temple work, I think it could be
argued that the LDS religion is the most INclusive of all religions, Christian
and otherwise."There are plenty of Christian churches that
believe non-members will get to heaven too. The Catholic church is one of those.
@johnnylingo62:Sorry but JS taught many things that were not correct and
are false doctrines (D&C, PoGP, JST, BoA).All your quotes are
wrestings and corruptions of scripture and are not correct interpretations."mansions" means "mansions" not segregated kingdoms or
"degrees" in heaven.1Cor.15:40-42 means the different
glorified ways we will look in heaven. Different hair color, different eye
color, different facial features.
@Michigander:Well, if you don't believe that Joseph Smith was a
prophet, then your point is interesting.If you believe the BoM to be
scripture, then Joseph Smith must have been a prophet.If Joseph Smith was
a prophet, then he received REVELATION (that's what prophets do) and he was
shown the 3 degrees of glory that he describes in D&C 76. Christ did
allude to the VARIOUS degrees of glory in the KJV of the Bible (in John 14 he
talks about "many mansions"); Moroni also talks about "mansions"
in Ether 12 in the BoM; and Paul teaches about different degrees of glory 1
Corinthians 15:40-42. I don't think that Joseph Smith was "peer
pressured by the Masons" to believe one way or the other. I don't
know everything about life after death, but the LDS map speaks to my heart in
harmony, and motivates me to live in a way that God would want me to live and He
would want me to be in His Kingdom forever as I accept the Sacrifice and
Atonement of Jesus Christ as the one true path back to Him.
Thinkman you know full well that if you have attended any LDS Church Sunday
School Gospel Doctrine class that we are all heirs to what the Father has. You
also know that one of the pictures inside the Salt Lake Temple has a picture of
both the Savior and the Father, remakably with the same marks in both their
hands. So to answer your question, yes it is taught and yes it is discussed.But you also know that we all have that opportunity not just members of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The highest kingdom is the
Celestial Kingdom. Exaltation comes after much progression that allows each of
us to become like our Father in Heaven. That is the Plan of Salvation. That is
the Plan of Happiness. That is and has always been, "to bring to pass the
imortality and eternal life of man".
I grew up in SLC from an active LDS home. I had friends who were LDS and not
LDS. We did lots of things together--went to the same parities, dated and double
dated, played sports, etc. My parents never discouraged me from associating with
people not of my faith and I don't remember any of my other LDS friends
being discouraged from associating with non LDS kids either. I'm not saying
that some narrow minded LDS aren't overprotective, but I think the problem
is sometimes exaggerated by people who are looking for a reason to complain.
It's like when I was living or visiting in non LDS areas, there were
isolated incidents of some kids teasing or not being allowed to play with me
because I was a Mormon, but those times were rare.
For those LDS who say there is no hell, only 3 degrees of glory and outer
darkness:There most certainly IS a hell - spoken of at length in the
KJB and BOM. It is equated with Spirit Prison, where those spirits who have not
accepted the gospel and atonement of Christ await their resurrection and final
judgement before receiving their eternal realm of (varying degrees of) glory.
Weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth are all there, along with figurative
'eternal' fire, but also soul searching repentance, hope and eventual
acceptance (or not) of the atonement of the Savior of the World. The other concept of hell we sometimes speak of may or may not exist - the
supposed eternal realization that we could have attained to so much more while
we look up from the telestial kingdom.
I appreciate joe5's comment. I don't believe the admonition to
refrain from believing "all is well in Zion" is a call to every LDS
member to constantly berate their fellow members for sinning differently than
they do.At least Wildcat seems to do it with the right intent.
Regardless, it's neither yours nor LDS Liberal's place to call your
fellows to repentance. Let that be between them and their gods.
I think one of the most important points Elder Walker made was that people of
all backgrounds will be in heaven. Many outside the Mormon community seem to
believe we think it will only be us who have been active members in our lives.
If that were true then there would be no reason for Temples and the work done in
them. For that reason alone, Temple work, I think it could be argued that the
LDS religion is the most INclusive of all religions, Christian and otherwise.
All these varying opinions about the subject of God and Heaven are all the more
reason to ask the author Himself. I believe that I will account to God for my
choices alone, even if I chose to follow someone elses opinion on the subject.
Re: Michigander: Funny you didn't mention the only other person, besides
Joseph Smith, present when the revelation, "The Vision"(D&C 76) was
received...was he a mason?In fact, this person was so physically weak from
being present for this revelation that the Prophet told him that he was just not
used to being in the presence of the Lord.
It's interesting to discuss ideas of heaven, as they vary significantly.
For myself, the LDS viewpoint seems the most logical, enlightened, and
consistent. I suspect the reality will be a lot more than what any of us
believe.It is interesting that just before Steve Jobs died, he
looked up and said, Oh wow! Oh wow! Oh wow! I hope I nor anyone I know says,
Oh, h--l! The atheist hopes heaven will be the most peaceful sleep ever.I wonder how many of us look at the Garden of Eden as a preview of the
paradisiacal state, which will be restored and added-upon through the atonement
of Christ (immortal bodies of flesh and bone, eternal marriage, and having
children)?Hope to see us all there!
RE: Christianity is all about community. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy
catholic(universal) church; the communion(community) of saints. The true
Christian church is not necessarily a visible church but an invisible church.
But you are a Chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s
special possession (peculiar people),…(1 Peter 2:9 NIV). RE;
ECR: In the temple, we are all equal in God's eyes.The Community of
Christ owns temples , both are open to the public. The CofC "rejects the
whole system of temple rituals, secret names, signs, oaths, and handshakes which
the Church in Utah proclaims are essential to the ultimate salvation of man.RE: Shelama, the real Jesus never said the words put into his mouth by
the author(s) of John.Peter disagrees,(Jesus) saith unto him the third
time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said
unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou
knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my
sheep.(John 21:17)V.19,Jesus said to Peter follow me.
I would like Barbara to ask the LDS church, though she probably didn't,
whether the LDS church still believes in the "As God is man may become and
as man is God once was" couplet.
I am very excited to see this interview as I have heard the previous showing was
very insightful.Before passing judgment on the interview and what
was said, how about we watch the entire thing?I just want to also
say be careful that you don't dig too deep into what he's saying. The
audience is people that don't know much about the Church. He's
keeping it simple and he should not be criticized for saying what he did.
"How do we get to heaven?" is a fairly involved question. Don't
put his answers under a microscope. The purpose of this interview is to give
people the general idea, not dig into deeper doctrine.I love being a
member of the Church because I know how to find truth. It certainly isn't
through debating and "bible-bashing" and pulling out obscure quotes to
prove points. It isn't through scrutinizing and reasoning. Truth comes
Michigander,Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.
Similarly, just because Joseph Smith said it doesn't make it true. We all
must live by faith, and at a later time the proof will, indeed, be in the
pudding.Until then you could consider showing some of the charity
espoused by Paul in the Bible. Or do you still see things darkly?
In a local junior high school near the history room there is board in the hall
with photos of a lot of famous people in history with a question of who are
these people. We will stand and point that out, "Greta Barbo",
"Jackie Robinson". There are other, Hermman Goering, striking a
dramatic pose, Adolf Hitler, Einstein, Stonewall Jackson, a mugshot of Rosa
Parks, Sitting Bull, Chief Joseph, Robert E. Lee. Fame, fortune, education,
power does not convey piety. It doesn't count in heaven.In one
of the ancient Hindu epics there is a story about two kings who fought a
terrible war in ancient times. Eventually, one died and he went up to heaven
and he saw the other king and he asked, "What is he doing here?" The
answer was, "He is here because he was true to his values."
@Bill in Nebraska,Celestial kingdom of which the highest is exaltation.
Christians want to be in heaven to worship God, Mormons want to be God.RE: (D&C 138:9)=.(1Peter 3:20)…eight souls were saved by water.
Verse 21 … baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh), but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ... . In other words, people are saved by believing
that of which baptism speaks, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
Remember, the eight souls that were saved were in the ark, they did not
get(wet) in the water, He drowned the non-believers. The ark was a type of
Christ. (1 Peter 4: 6 NIV)…the gospel was preached even to
those who are “Now dead’, so that they might be judged according to
human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to
the spirit .The gospel was (past tense) preached ,for the Mormon doctrine
to be correct it should read IS preached
@ LDS LiberalI have moved 3 times in the last 3 years and have
always lived next to or across the street from a non-Mormon person. Their kids
have played as freely at my house as any other child and I have actually never
met anyone close to the straw man LDS person you constantly rant against.People are complex and nuanced and I think your rants have more to do
with a daily self-esteem program than a call to repentance as you like to claim.
(Oh look how enlightened and accepting I am compared to everyone else).If your neighborhood really is that bad please move.
Wildcat: With your "uniqueness," I'm astonished you stereotype
fellow church members. I was born Catholic, christened as a baby. Child of
divorce at five. Kidnapped at gunpoint by my father shortly after. Raised by a
single mother in a racially integrated neighborhood (black, Mexican, white
trash) in California. Baptized with my mom when I was eight. Our ward had black
members before 1978. One member would shout "Amen" from the congregation
during sacrament meeting talks. I learned cribbage from a member who had been a
professional gambler. Another member was one of the first Koreans ever
baptized.I've now lived in Utah almost 30 years. Both growing
up and now here, I've never seen the seamy side of church members that you
seem to see. Perhaps it comes down to you and me. I give people the benefit of
the doubt. You just doubt them.BTW, I don't understand your
statement about attending meetings. It's true or it's not. Nobody else
controls whether I am faithful. No matter how people treat me, I'll be
there because I know its true. Because of that, I can let others work out their
@ClarkHippoThe bishop was upset at the parent who told me I
couldn't bring my non-LDS friend. As an eight-year-old, I didn't want
to lash out at an adult (I was taught to respect adults), so I just left the
party with my friend.@Joe5I am including myself in that
we have to do better. I am far from thinking that I can't do better in
helping others. Respectfully, I am not posting to get your good opinion. My
intention is to let everyone know that there is a problem, and that we all can
better in treating people in a Christ-like manner. I am a single
LDS that didn't serve a mission. I don't fit neatly into the LDS
culture, but the culture is not the Gospel--thank heavens. With all the
discrimination I have gone through (intentional and non-intentional), it's
amazing I still attend meetings. I do feel like I need to voice the problems
faced by LDS in my situation and the non-LDS (who mostly comprise my friends).
If it raises any awareness levels, then it is worth the postings. Have a nice
Sharrona: Again you mix scripture to try and make a point but again it is as
false as it has ever been.The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of
Jesus Christ: Specifies that paradise is a period of which righteous spirits go
to after death awaiting the resurrection. Section 138 of the Doctrine &
Covenants specifies even further what happened during Christ's time in the
spirit world as described by Peter. There are differences that individuals go
to as they await the resurrection and judgement that is to come. As Section 138
so vividly states is that Christ gathered his forces together to teach the
Gospel to the dead. You are right only in that marriage is not given in heaven
as you say but that is after the resurrection, not before. Marriage is an
earthly ordinance that must be taken care of. Remember that just as there are
three degrees of glory as stated in Corinthians but three degrees of the
Celestial kingdom of which the highest is exaltation which is after the
resurrection and judgement of all.
joe5South Jordan, UT8:31 p.m. July 3, 2012Wildcat: I want to
grow up to be just like you! But fortunately we have you and LDS Liberal
to ensure that we don't get too comfortable, that we aren't at ease in
Zion.---Joe5,It's boastful pride like that
led the Pharisees to crucify Christ.Rameupmton sounds familiar as well.Wouldn't want to think the Lamanites were evil, and Nephites righteous.
God preserved the Lamanites in BoM.Call me the publican -- God
have mercy on me, a sinner.=========== Stay the
CourseSalt Lake City, utahLDS liberal as one LDS member to another I
say thou hast a chip on your shoulder. ------ You can
just say I expect more for those who profess to be THE only true Church, Have a Living Prophet to follow and don't, and call themselves
"Saints".By their fruits, ye shall know them.For
the record --- I do tend to rant against my fellow Bro & Sis, But I also expect better.I've had MANY Non-LDS friends and
neighbors doing circles as being Christlike vs. many of the Cultural Mormons
found here in Zion.
@LDS LiberalI would love to meet these "Utah Mormons" you
describe, since I've never met them. Ever since I was in Primary I was
taught there would be people of all beliefs in the Celestial Kingdom.Since you stated you've had this argument with many Utah Mormons, perhaps
you would share with us a little of what they said in defending their argument.
I know a girl in Canada who is one of the most amazing people I
know. Even if she doesn't accept the LDS faith in this life, I'd be
stunned if I didn't see her in the Celestial Kingdom raising me to her
level. @WildcatYou said - "A parent (yes parent)
told me that I could not bring him there, and that it was only for LDS. I
remember seeing the hurt in his eyes as we both left the party. Of course my
parents told the bishop, and he was very upset."Was the bishop
upset at you or the parent? If I were that bishop, I would tell that parent to
get off their self-righteous soapbox and recognize goodness is found in all
faiths and beliefs.
Wildcat: Seriously, let me speak more clearly and omit the sarcastic tone of my
previous posting.I'm just curious why you think it is your job
to correct others in their prideful natures. You even used yourself as an
example of what we should be like. Isn't that the epitome of pride?
Wouldn't all of us be a little better served if we focused more on our own
weaknesses and less on the weaknesses of others. Do you really expect that your
words are somehow going to effect change in people who are posting on the
internet. None of us has yet felt the "increase of love" that should
follow your gentle rebukes. Honestly, how do you think your criticism is
received by others? Do you really think you are doing some good or does it come
across a little hypocritical. How would you respond to someone who posts like
you do?I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't weigh in on
topics. But couldn't you do so in a little less judgmental manner? I assume
you're a good man/woman with good intentions but it sure doesn't feel
@joe5"Imagine the shame I feel in being human and making mistakes. But
fortunately we have you and LDS Liberal to ensure that we don't get too
comfortable, that we aren't at ease in Zion"Well it's
obvious you take questioning the same way that people do when they slam doors in
I dont think we will be surprised at all who is in the Celestial Kingdom. Not if
we pay attention. Still what does it matter, personally, if we dont do what we
need to be there ourselves? The interview sounded very interesting.
Looking forward to that one and all the others interviewed. I think it will
prove be a very good missionary tool.
@Joe5,I'll save a seat on the back row right by me in the
meetinghouse anytime you want to come. Sorry if my words caused the
"peaceful" feeling to leave you, that was not my intent. I just feel
that we can do a lot better and not be lifted up into pride (like many local
LDS), but that is just my particular view.I find it funny that many
people took exception to LDS Liberal and myself. I guess if you ignore the
problem, it doesn't exist. I'll try to remember that many LDS here
think any words of improvement must mean that there is a problem of some
kind--and they take that news very harshly. LDS members are perfect and above
any question, sorry for trying to suggest otherwise.
If/when we get there, I'm sure we'll be surprised who else is there -
and even more surprised who isn't...
I believe people will be held eternally accountable for any false information,
hurtful statements, or other garbage they post on the internet. As such, I
think heaven will not be very full.
Can you believe we're arguing over what some men wrote down in a book 2000
years ago and actually letting it lead our entire lives? WOW!
RE: Bill in Nebraska, Heaven= Paradise, The word "paradise" is found in
the O. T.(Genesis 2:8 Septuagint) a garden(paradeisos,3857)in the east of Eden .
Paradise occurs three times in the N.T.: Luke 23:43,where Jesus on the cross
says to the thief, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"; 2
Corinthians 12:2-4,where Paul alludes to his vision of the third heaven and also
to paradise; and Revelation 2:7,which describes the righteous who partake of the
tree of life in the midst of God's paradise.(Mormon Doctrine p. 555
The Prophet(JS) explains there is nothing in the original word in Greek…
that signifies paradise; but it was This day shalt thou be with me in the world
of spirits) JS was wrong about heaven.“At the resurrection
people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like(as) the
angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30 NIV). AS Angels (aggelos,32).
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but
abandoned their own home… Fallen angels(devils) Nothing to with pre mortal
There is a paradox in beliefs about the qualifications to enter Heaven in the
Gospel. Rituals such as baptism and sacrament are a requirement. Then, in
Matthew 25 the requirements are laid out, "Feed the hungry, cloth the sick,
visit the prisoners, be kind to strangers." Nowhere in Matthew 25 does it
refer to the correct rituals.Another interesting thing is that
String Theory in Physics throws open the door to parallel universes. In
metaphysical terms we could call them "Heaven", "Hell" and
anything else. We don't see them because energy (or at least, not very
much) does not cross between them. One theory is that gravity is weak because
it is 'leaking' in from another universe. Apparently the five (known)
fundamental forces of physics may not be the same in other parallel
universes.When I die and I get to heaven, I think that I would like
to go what passes as a university there and study physics.
Interesting-- Not much mention of grace-- without it, there would be no Heaven
at all. Someone mentioned the LDS concept of Heaven isn't
kosher with contemporary Christianity's concept. That sparks the question,
where did modern Christians get their concept of Heaven? I'd be even more
curious about what was believed about Heaven in the early church--- like
pre-Nicean council times. Moving along, what was Martin Luther's
understanding of Heaven? Has contemporary Christianity's concept of Heaven
evolved, or has it always been the same? A question for a scholar/historian, I
Obviously lots of different opinions on the subject.People would do
well to look at all the differing beliefs and realize that all or none may be
correct.How about this.- What you learn in church may
not be correct- you can have your "beliefs" but you really
"know" very little- be a good person and treat others as you wish
to be treatedThen, if there is a heaven and a god, you are probably
all setIf there isn't, you haven't lost anything. If there is a god, he or she is probably saddened on how much time we spend
arguing and fighting over religion.
I love the Mormon moment and all the spot light the faith is getting. I think
it's going to b e a good thing for those who don't have a clue about
LDS to see that it's Christian, not a cult, etc. I also think when people
Google it and see the post/ex mormon sites, read the history, see the recent
mass resignation, etc. that they will be pretty shocked that the church has so
many problems to deal with compared to others. They will probably ask, as I
After reading some of the comments,I now know what it means 'casting your
pearls before swine.'
Yes, there is three degrees of glory and then there is outer darkness where the
sons of perdition are cast off to live with Satan and his angels.The
three degrees of glory: Telestial World (most of the world will be here),
Terrestial World (most LDS members will live here), Celetial Kingdom (members of
the all parts of the world will live here but only a select few).As
someone once said the only individual that can determine your eternal
progression is yourself and after all you can do, then it is the Grace of Jesus
Christ that allows us to enter into the Father's kingdom.The
Doctrine & Covenants spells out in I believe Section 76 all of this.
Remember the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Baptism by immersion by those authorized to do
so, and then the laying on of hands for receipt of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Without this no one will enter in the celestial kingdom. That is why baptism
for the dead is so essential. As Elder Holland states, "it
wouldn't be heaven with out our family there with us."
LDS liberal as one LDS member to another I say thou hast a chip on your
shoulder. Similar posts with the same theme on multiple occasions cause
me to "judge you" that wayAs President Hinckley once said we can
all see the grey in the sky if we want to but lets look at the blue sky as well
Have any of you ever realized that if you lived on this planet alone, you'd
be perfect - because there would be no one to irritate you? We differ in our
beliefs on many levels, but as to getting to heaven......I'm thinking that
we should find what makes us happy, live good lives, be tolerant of each other
and leave it to a loving Heavenly Father to decide the ultimate reward we will
Wildcat: I want to grow up to be just like you! Imagine the shame I feel in
being human and making mistakes. But fortunately we have you and LDS Liberal to
ensure that we don't get too comfortable, that we aren't at ease in
Zion. I would hate to have a feeling of peace when I'm so beset with
weakness and sin. Can you tell me what ward you're in so I can get your
pearls of wisdom, your caution against weakness, and most of all your
"encouragement" every week? I'm sure I'll be better for it.
@justhappytobehereI am glad that you have never run across any
problems in your life with LDS people. I can tell you that I have seen it all
too much. I remember taking a non-LDS friend to a summer bbq party when I was
eight-years old. A parent (yes parent) told me that I could not bring him
there, and that it was only for LDS. I remember seeing the hurt in his eyes as
we both left the party. Of course my parents told the bishop, and he was very
upset. Gordon B. Hinckley mentioned in a conference talk how he had
read many letters concerning incidents like mine, and that he feared we are
responsible for some of the bad image being spread.I don't do
it to rip on LDS people. I am just suggesting we all have a lot of work to do,
and we all are our brother's keeper. Some non-LDS people are more in touch
with the Spirit than LDS people--our membership means nothing if our actions
aren't Christ-like. Sorry to exhaust you, but all is not well in Zion.
@RBN:"I guess we'll all find out what is true doctrine at
some point, won't we?"We already have found out that
knowledge. It is contained in the KJV and the BoM only (no 3 degrees of glory or
3 kingdoms of heaven mentioned anywhere!)Joseph Smith got the false
notion of 3 degrees of glory from the 3 degrees of the Masonic Lodge: Entered
Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason, plus the fact that Hyrum Smith,
Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, along with many others were Freemasons (peer
pressure on JS). What eventually resulted was the abominably erroneous D&C
The mormon church will get themselves into trouble with this one. Just more
propoganda and contradiction. It should be concerning for members to see the
spin machine in such a public forum.
It's not often that I agree with Hutterite, but this time I really do, Well
@Counter Intelligence@RedShirt=======Perhaps we
should be even more truthful and profess our actual LDS Doctrine of the
after-life and the Final Judgement.That there really is NO Hell at all,
only 3 Degrees of Glory. That most certainly doesn't fit into
mainstream "Christianity" or in-line with the Bible.Should
really make some heads spin on TV and put us right back into the Evangelical
cross-hairs -- not something Mitt Romney needs with only 100 days until the
General Election.The Church did a great job of not being too
controversial which I quite frankly applaud, but it was a watered-down general
answer.But, I digress....On anothrer note;WildcatO-town, UTAgreed with your comment.My kids are
the only friends with the non-Mormon kids in our 95% Mormon neighborhood -- I
wonder why?....Johnny's daddy drinks a beer now and then, and Tommy
doesn't go to primary.My LDS upbringing taught it's
"members" to abstain - then set a good example - and love and accept all
as friends and neighbors -- They are fellow CITIZENS with the Saints --
just like Paul said, That is what I've taught my children.
LDS Liberal,"Utah-Mormons" and nearly every other member of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints knows that Joseph Smith was
surprised to see his brother in a vision, someone who clearly wasn't a
'by the book Utah Mormon' either. If Utahns know about that, then we
aren't as short-sighted as you suggest.There are three degrees
of glory which are all heaven compared to what we see in the world around us
today. Just because one person can't or won't abide a specific glory,
doesn't mean they are the heathen, an outcast, and condemned forever.
Anyone who thinks that doesn't understand LDS doctrine rightly if at
all.There are 3 degrees of glory and an outer darkness. That's
more than a simple "heaven or hell" and such analogies aren't
adequate to answer people's questions that seem to only include that or
refuse the possibility of a different belief system.Please, stop
judging the rest of the membership and just live your own life already. You
can't justify your own judgments of others, no matter how much you try.
It's pretty clear even just from the posts here that we simply don't
know what lies in the great beyond and what we take on faith varies widely. I
guess we'll have to just wait it out.
Good grief, all you people, L.D.S. and non-L.D.S., who can't stop ragging
on the church and its members. Give it up, would you please? I have lived in
Utah almost my whole adult life. I have never come across anyone who
wouldn't allow their children to play with non-L.D.S. children. And not
invite non-L.D.S. to parties? That's crazy, as we're always accused of
trying to proselytize because we do invite them to things. And as far as who
gets to be in Heaven goes, I don't know a Mormon soul who would profess to
know exactly how it's going to be. Who are these L.D.S. people you all seem
to know who are so self-righteous? Because as I said, I don't know a single
one in all of my L.D.S. acquaintance. Please, just give it a rest. You're
The alternatives to LDS heaven are interesting and I hope I'm not
incorrectly stating them:Agnostic heaven -- no ideaAtheist
heaven -- noneEvangelical heaven -- eternity praising GodLDS heaven
-- eternal progressionI'll opt for the latter.If
one believes that no one really knows what happens after we bite the dust, why
not pick one that has some future rather than nothing or sitting around praising
some megalomaniac deity who makes us go through this junk so we can sing to him.
I yearn for the day of candor.Joseph Smith had a good time with the
journalists of his day when he answered some repeated questions."Will
everybody be damned, but Mormons?"Yes, and a great portion of them,
unless they repent, and work righteousness.History of the Church, Vol.3,
LDS LiberalI totally agree with you. I have had many non-LDS
friends who have been chased away from the LDS religion by some of the
self-righteousness of some LDS members. Their kids aren't allowed to play
with their kids, they aren't invited to parties, etc. I have also heard
them describe that some LDS claim that they are the only ones who will get into
heaven. Standing in a church doesn't make you spiritual just
like standing in a garage doesn't make you a mechanic. I trust in
God's justice. He is no respecter of persons and looks upon people's
hearts. Many of my non-LDS friends are better examples of followers of Christ
than many of my LDS friends. I am sure the right will be done!In
the meantime, we all need to be more compassionate to everybody!
"Elder Walker said that Mormons believe our lives will be evaluated on how
we live," said Walters in an interview from her office last week. "And
if we live with a love for others and we contribute to society and we keep the
commandments of God, we will have a better opportunity to go to heaven. He said
that Mormons believe that our lives will be evaluated on how we lived them. That
is reasonable and optimistic."Oh, I hope he mentioned grace and
I believe the Mormon concept of heaven is any degree of glory. If true,
virtually everyone on earth will go to heaven except a small number of people
who disqualify themselves.Other than those sons of perdition,
everyone will receive a reward far better than this mortal existence. John
Lennon's song Imagine described what many people view as heaven. Yet he
only scratched the surface of the least degree of glory.I think most
people will receive a heavenly reward similar to what they envision. In that
way, other faiths are correct. However, they limit what could be theirs if they
really understood the plan of salvation.My Christian friends often
quote John 3:16, yet when queried they have no idea what to do with eternal
life. They envision singing in choirs and floating around without any cares or
praising God all day long. Few of them recognize the value of growth, work,
family relationships, etc that are part of what really brings happiness for
eternity. Seriously, how can anybody believe in a heaven without the love of our
family members being a major part of it all?
To "LDS Liberal" um....it all depends on how you look at things. They
never explain what they are calling Heaven.From an LDS perspective,
yes, there will be people of all faiths in the Celesestial Kingdom. Any child,
regardless of faith, who dies before the age of 8 will be there. Now, here is
where symantics comes into play. Suppose a Catholic dies, then while awaiting
the final judgement, joins the LDS church and accepts the posthumous work done
on their behalf. When they enter the Celestial Kingdom, are they Catholic or
LDS? Lets also consider those at the time of the Old Testament and New
Testament. The Old Testament people would be considered Jewish (or whatever
name they had for their religion at the time), and those during the time of the
New Testament would have been considered Saints.As the scriptures
states, those that enter the Celestial Kingdom will be his Saints, or "whose
names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled
in the book of the law of God;" (D&C 85) Some people would consider
that to be God's Church. So, you can lay off your antiUtah drivel.
Michigander and LDS Liberal,Thanks for posting. I read it on the
internet so it must be true, right?
There is segregation in heaven.. of a sort.There is class distinction in
heaven.There is sex in heaven.Heaven is a continuation of life for
good people.Hell is a continuation of life for bad people.
The most humorous moment in the interview took place when Walters asked Elder
Walker whether non-Mormons will make it to heaven. After Walker insisted that
people of all religious persuasions will be in heaven..." ~ article========== Boy!That ought to be a real shock eye
opener to many Utah Momrons who insist only card carrying Mormons will be
there.Same goes for Zion and the New Jerusalem having Non-Mormons
and people of all religions residing there too.I can't count
the times I've debated this with my fellow Brothers and Sisters.
Michigander,I guess we'll all find out what is true doctrine at
some point, won't we?Until then I'll respect your beliefs
although I doubt you'll respect mine.
The LDS "perspective" on heaven is false doctrine and the corruption of
2 Cor.12:2 (1-4).The "3rd heaven" mentioned in the above
scripture is where God dwells and all His holy angels (Alma 18:30).The 2nd heaven is Outer Space.The 1st heaven is Earth's
Atmosphere, which consists of the following 5 layers (lowest to highest):Troposphere, Stratosphere, Mesosphere, Thermosphere, and the Exosphere. There is no segregation in heaven. There is no going to the back of the
bus in heaven.