Azrods, Thanks! I was in a hurry earlier and completely missed your comment."When will the hard ... look for plan B." I couldn't agree
more with that whole bit.Blue,If you desire people to
only pay their own way, yes our system is failing at that. Socialism is a step
further down that road though. My concern isn't financial accountability
(though important) but agency.Lane Myer,I'm glad
you asked that, it's an important point. I did address it though- "We
shouldn't have to defend against our own government being oppressive. This
isn't exactly a violent issue so while I will argue... I'll have to
sit back and 'take it'... simply because I am legally obligated to.
But eventually I worry that this country will get so polarized in our desire to
protect freedom that eventually I fear we may face another civil war."My fear is that more threats to agency will provoke violence; I
don't advocate that violence even when it is sometimes justified in severe
situations. I believe a better people would be more passive than that. I support
the law and being subject as commanded, completely.
reader1234 said:My company sent out an email yesterday stating that
because of the ruling that they are now thinking of dropping our health
coverage. We will be forced onto the government exchanges. Please someone
explain to me how my situation has now improved? When I told the news to my wife
she started crying. I work with 1500 people. They all lost their health
insurance yesterday.Sounds like your boss was just looking for an
excuse as many Mitt types are looking only at their bottom line. This is a
huge part of the problem, Every year we lose vacation and sick days even though
neither has ever been abused, I'm seldom able to take all of my vacation 12
days after 15 years, Yep many Utah Employers are greedy little people who call
you brother and talk like your family, right up till they let you go so a share
holder can make a couple more dollars.
Nanci Pelosi was quoted as saying" We have to pass this so we know
what's in it". The Supreme Court has now told us that the individual
mandate is a tax. Didn't Obama in a news conference earlier this year say
that he will not raise taxes one dime on any Americans who make less than
$250,000.00.? There is also 20 other taxes in this bill as well as new federal
oversight committees. These committees will have to be funded so I guess that
is what all the taxes will do. Also we can't forget that this bill is
called "Obamacare", but the real creators of it were progressive unions
such as SEIU who were also behind OWS. Wow what a coincidence!! These people
like Obama have decided that free-market capitalism should be replaced by
socialism and a single payer health reform which will be run by you guessed it
the Federal Government. The "Affordable Heathcare Tax" stifles the
economy. Obama must go!!
re:metamoracougThat was the cost of the emergency appendectomy my
son had. Luckily he had insurance so he paid significantly less. Researchers at the University of California at San Francisco, whose findings
were published in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine found that after
reviewing charges from more than 19,000 patients, the researchers found that the
cost for treatment of uncomplicated appendicitis ranged from $1,529 to a
whopping $182,955. (ABC April 2012)So, what are patients going to
do? Call around each hospital to comparison shop regarding the cost of
treatment? How does that work for emergencies? BTW, hospitals don't have
set rates, you won't be able to get a quote. Rates depend on insurance
coverage/company, insurance plan specifics etc. If you didn't have
insurance you would be on the hook for the full $40k. If you have insurance you
may pay only $1k. Hospitals charge the uninsured more than the insured.
Truthseeker: I work in a small private medical practice. If you are paying $40K
for an uncomplicated appendectomy, you're being ripped off. It's
outpatient surgery and should cost less than 10K. I am covered medically up to
$300K if I get in an auto accident -- which is the most likely reason anyone in
my family would go to the hospital. And that $66K savings? I used it to buy
property and build a second home -- now valued at $200K. If it were necessary,
yes, I could part with it and cover medical expenses for cancer.This
is my fourth post, so let me say that ACA does nothing to actually reduce the
cost of medical care for anyone. It also does nothing to improve medical care
or increase personal responsibility for health or healthcare. As a nation, we
have the worst health habits of any industrialized nation. And until that
changes, until there is tort reform, until each INSURED individual willingly
pays his/her co-payment/co-insurance/deductible (in 12 years our office has
written off 10s of thousands unpaid co-insurance/co-payment/deductibles), then
no legislation will be helpful.
Seething anger, knickers atwist everywhere...this is fine political drama.
@UtahBlueDevil"When 20 something uninsured Joe/Jane extreme
skier goes to the hospital emergency room for an injury, you and I pick up that
bill, because they don't want to spend their money on insurance."Yes, we all pick up the cost - true. I think that those who
believe that this ACA will remedy this kind of scenario are being naive. Do you
seriously think that Joe/Jane skier is now going to pay for insurance? Or, will
they instead pay the penalty, oops, I mean TAX?Do you think that all
of the illegals (and yes, there are MANY MANY) who are working all the angles to
get their healthcare at no cost to them (and thus paid by you and I) are going
to change anything?I see 30 million new recipients of healthcare
insurance but I do not believe for a moment that there will be 30 million new $$
contributors, do you? Then do the math. Our costs - thanks to this ACA - are
only going up. And, our freedoms are continue to be infringed.
utealumni: I'm glad you have it too. And I'm glad that over the past
12 years I haven't.
@CHS 85"Is it possible or Utahns to grow up and call it the Patient
Protection and Affordable Care Act instead of Obamacare? We're all adults,
we can handle the proper names for things."I heard this term
from national and outside sources LONG before I heard it fall from the lips of
any UTAHN. We cannot claim to have coined the term "OBamacare." But, if
it offends you to hear it said like that, call it what you want. The adults with
whom I associate (responsible, hardworking, accountable, freedom-loving) are now
calling it "ObamaTAX" based on the high court's decision. And when
I say "high" I say it with intended ambiguity. :)
Re:metamoracougSo do you have an extra $40k stashed away for a
uncomplicated appendectomy? What if someone on the freeway makes an unsafe lane
change and puts you in the hospital with major injuries? Can your household
budget absorb those costs or $2000mon for chemo drugs?You remind me
of a plaintiff in the court case against ACA. Mary Brown, uninsured, filed for
bankruptcy recently and among her unpaid bills was $4500 for medical care.
metamoracougI've always had health insurance. We are a family of six.
I have been healthy, never in a hospital and now have leukemia. glad I have
Lane Meyer: There is always an appropriate time for civil disobedience. If ever
there was a time to go Gandhi on the government, this would be it.Utahbluedevil: I am uninsured and neither you nor anyone else has ever paid a
penny for my healthcare costs because: 1) my family works diligently to maintain
good health through exercise and proper eating; 2) I pay all my medical bills
out of pocket (presently we are a family of 4 and average cost annually is about
$4500 -- a savings over the past 12 years of AT LEAST $66K had we been being out
of pocket for insurance coverage -- probably more than that amount because we
have 3 adult children who would also have been covered during that time).
My company sent out an email yesterday stating that because of the ruling that
they are now thinking of dropping our health coverage. We will be forced onto
the government exchanges. Please someone explain to me how my situation has now
improved? When I told the news to my wife she started crying. I work with 1500
people. They all lost their health insurance yesterday.
A voice of ReasonSalt Lake City, UTWell if the conservative half of
the country refuses to pay it and refuses to pay Obama's fines it
won't be good for liberals will it?------------------This won't happen in Utah because: "We believe in being subject to
Kings, Magistrates, Rulers and in OBEYING, HONORING AND SUSTAINING the law."
ACA is now the law. Don't like it, get it changed, but we will obey it
until there is a new law, right?
These are great benefits until you consider that we borrow 40% of it and pass
the debt on to our children. It's a great legacy we are leaving them. Our
schools should start teaching Greek as the language of choice.
CHS85: "affordable care act" is a misnomer -- If I choose to get
insurance, it will cost me about $10K per annum. If I choose to not get
insured, it will cost me that penalty prescribed by the act. Either way it is a
significant amount of money out of my pocket that I did not previously have to
spend. It is not affordable for me.From Redneck lefty: "The
fact is, all of us already do pay for it. But we pay for it in extremely
wasteful and inefficient ways. We pay for an expensive emergency room visit for
pneumonia instead of a cheap office visit for a chest cold. We pay for invasive
care instead of preventative care. We all pay for it, because hospitals must
treat people who cannot pay, and they have to make up the difference by charging
the rest of us more."And it's your opinion that this act
will change the situation you describe? In IL an increasing number of
physicians don't except Medicaid because it pays so little.
Here is the problem. Back in 2004, way before this whole argument started, the
Kaiser Foundation did a report on the cost of healthcare to uninsured Americans.
At that time the cost was about 124 Billion dollars. Add to that 40+ Billion
in unreimbursed care was taken directly to the bottom line of hospitals, and you
see the problem we have.There is no "free" healthcare for
the uninsured. That cost gets picked up by those who do have insurance. When
someone has a pre-existing condition that prevents them from getting insurance,
and they have to see a doctor, it is you and I who pick up that bill. The
insurance companies push that risk off to the care givers and tax payers. That
cost doesn't go away.When 20 something uninsured Joe/Jane
extreme skier goes to the hospital emergency room for an injury, you and I pick
up that bill, because they don't want to spend their money on insurance.The system is full of payment loopholes. It needs to be fixed. If
mandating insurance isn't the answer so we don't have to cary their
cost, I want to know what is.
AVOR: "There are people of different cultural backgrounds, faiths,
non-faiths, and so on in this country that do not believe in participating in
any form of Healthcare. "But they do participate. When their kids get sick or have accidents they go to the emergency room, we
pay those costs.When they go on disability because they didn't
take care of their health, we pay those costs.When they die because
they didn't get medical check-ups that could have spotted their cancer at
an early stage and their families end up on welfare, we pay those costs.Insurance works best and costs are lowest when _everyone_ is insured.
No "free riders."Most Americans _like_ the idea of not
allowing insurance companies to deny coverage because of pre-existing
conditions.Most Americans _like_ keeping their kids on their
policies until they're 26.Asked about individual sections of
the PPACA, most Americans are all in favor of them. It's only when you
guys call it "Obamacare" that attitudes shift.
This was the kiss of death for Obama.Young dems don't won't to
be forced to spend there money on health care. Neither do baby boomers.I'm trying to be positive.Big health care money, is much more at
risk than hollywoods elites here.Do the math, and see big money hammer
Obama out of office.
Owen,Roads and taxes are unavoidably something that need to be payed
for. Requiring you to pay taxes in order to reap the benefits of government is
something government does have to do. To clarify my position, I am not against
that. Although I am against forcing people. If you don't want to pay taxes?
Fine, I won't force you. But I also won't give you any of those
benefits. When you are mugged in an alley, no cops to protect you. No driving,
etc.There are people of different cultural backgrounds, faiths,
non-faiths, and so on in this country that do not believe in participating in
any form of Healthcare. While I disagree with them, I am not justified in
forcing them to participate or give up their property for something that is not
necessary for government and society to function. Roads, taxes, police, fire
dept's, etc are all necessary, but if someone doesn't want their
benefits I won't be forcing them to pay for it as long as they can't
use them.The difference is obvious and didn't need this
explanation. We all know that force is wrong!
As in 2000, the Supreme Court of the United States has decided the presidential
election. And guess what? Romney wins.And the decision this time
comes prior to the vote, rather than afterwards.Here's how.As a matter of final, binding, and unalterable Supreme Court precedent,
ObamaCare is funded not by a mandate enforced by a "penalty," but,
instead, a mandate enforced by a "tax."The 2010 election
becomes the template for the 2012 election. Only this time on steroids. And
President Obama will be unable to anything about it.And yet, because
it is a Supreme Court opinion that, in the end, merely construes a statute (and
otherwise protects the Commerce Clause), when the people turn against the
statute, those who enacted it and called it "not a tax" but supported
it, lose on November 6, and the statute falls in the political branch come
2013.Tuesday, March 27, 2012 may well be the day we all look back to
as the day Romney won the Presidency. What happened that day? The Solicitor
General urged the Court to conclude, as a final, last ditch argument, that
ObamaCare's funding mechanism can be construed as a tax.
AZRods asked: "who is going to pay for the premiums for those who can't
afford it? "The fact is, all of us already do pay for it. But we
pay for it in extremely wasteful and inefficient ways. We pay for an expensive
emergency room visit for pneumonia instead of a cheap office visit for a chest
cold. We pay for invasive care instead of preventative care. We all pay for it,
because hospitals must treat people who cannot pay, and they have to make up the
difference by charging the rest of us more.Or, do you want to live
in a country where people with no money and no insurance die on the sidewalk
outside the emergency room?
re:VoiceAgain:What is the Republican plan? You do have
the right not to participate. However, all choices involve consequences. "If you don't want to buy insurance, then you have to help pay
for the cost of the state picking up your bill, because under federal law if
someone doesn't have insurance, then we have to care for them in the
hospitals, give them free care. So we said, no more, no more free riders. We are
insisting on personal responsibility. Either get the insurance or help pay for
your care."Mitt RomneyRepublican Senator Orrin Hatch of
Utah, a former Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and former Republican Senate
Majority Leader Bill Frist, a heart surgeon, have supported the individual
mandate. Republican Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa and business groups like
the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the Business Round Table have also supported
the individual mandate and a bill co-sponsored by Republican Senator Bob Bennett
and touted as the Republican alternative to health care reform contained an
Voice, you are exactly correct. And I might add or ask those who are pounding on
their chests over the so called victory...who is going to pay for the premiums
for those who can't afford it? The millions on welfare? Those who can
make more on government benefits than working at a less than acceptable job so
they just stay home.The cost of maintaining this program will only add to
bankrupt this country.This decision only puts the American citizens in
more of a "needy" position at the mercy of "THE GOVERNMENT".When will the hard working citizens get tired of pulling the wagon? I think
that day isfast approaching. Time to look for plan B.
Anyone who likes the idea that the government (we the people) can force (decide)
to pay for something (necessary for the good of society - like roads, schools,
armies and healthcare) is as American as it gets.
CHS 85: Oh, I'm perfectly fine calling it Obamacare. I don't mind
Obama getting credit, for generations, for:-making insurance
available to children with preexisting conditions-making insurance
exchanges available to adults with preexisting conditions-closing the
Medicare Prescription Drug donut hole-ending annual coverage caps-ending lifetime coverage caps-allowing college students to stay on
their parents' insurance-limiting the percentage of my premium my
insurance company can soak up in profits and overheadBut if you
don't like the individual mandate, I don't mind if you keep calling
that part Romneycare.
Is it possible or Utahns to grow up and call it the Patient Protection and
Affordable Care Act instead of Obamacare? We're all adults, we can handle
the proper names for things.
Truthseeker,Your idea of due process is not accurate or lawful. Due
process is something we EACH individually get. Judicial review and due process
are not the same thing. The Supreme Court exercised judicial review in
considering the constitutionality of forcing people to pay for Healthcare, even
if their personal beliefs conflict with it (thereby weakening if not abandoning
the first amendment).According to our constitution, we are all
entitled to due process WHEREBY we must receive and are legally entitled to
receive adequate notice, a hearing, and a neutral judge BEFORE our rights or
property is taken from us by force. I believe I have the right to NOT
participate and before a government forces me I have a right for my case to be
heard. Now, there is no case. No one has an individual case for their own
property because the government rules over all of us.Anyone who
likes the idea that the government can force us to pay for something is under a
mentality that I firmly believe to be as un-American as it gets. It will only
lead to an evil future where we have no protections for our basic free rights.
Obama thinks everybody can afford health insurance. Yes, and some families would
pay over a thousand per month.And they say Mitt Romney is out of
touch with people?
re;Voice"No due process, no nothing."Really? Americans (you) voted.Congress passed legislation.Courts heard
challenges.Supreme Court ruled. Like it or not, that is due
process under the American system. Is it better to return to the
system where medical care for the uninsured is "cost-shifted" to the
insured? What is the Republican plan? Oh yeah.It was
Romneycare, the blue-print for ACA. Thanks Mitt!
We're doing fine. Hyperbole, on the other hand, had a great day.
Well if the conservative half of the country refuses to pay it and refuses to
pay Obama's fines it won't be good for liberals will it?The more our government tries to take away our freedoms, the more we'll
need and start to defend ourselves. We shouldn't have to defend against our
own government being oppressive. This isn't exactly a violent issue so
while I will argue constantly against it, I'll have to sit back and
'take it' from the liberal powers that be simply because I am legally
obligated to. But eventually I worry that this country will get so polarized in
our desire to protect freedom that eventually I fear we may face another civil
war. There are threats in this world and they seem great. But I fear the future
of this nation more than I do North Korea or anyone else.R.I.P. the
right to control property being taken away. No due process, no nothing. The
government simply takes our property because they choose what we pay for instead
of ourselves now.R.I.P. A rational Supreme court (Oh wait, that idea
died a LONG time ago)
I'm well pleased with the decision. Health care reform is still on the
table! Congress will just have to deal with it. Politicians of all persuasions
have avoided getting health care reform on the table for decades. Now no one can
avoid making it into what we, as a nation (not a faction), want it to be.The same needs to be done for immigration reform. Let's keep at
these slippery politicians until they produce a comprehensive bill. Fine tuning
can come later. First we need to get these self-serving politicians off the dime
with an up or down vote on a comprehensive immigration bill.
I was surprised that we have not heard from Utah's Constitutional expert,
Carl Wimmer, on this subject. He, along with Senators Mike Lee & Oren
Hatch, have consistently told all Utah residents that the ACA was
unconstitutional. How could they so wrong?