obama: it wasn't a tax before it was. the guy doesn't have a clue as
to honesty. o will go. this is his doom. go romney! come january this will be
Freedom is gone from the land. If socialists can require this, they can require
anything else. I'm extremely disappointed in John Roberts, who was the
deciding vote. Secret combinations continue to rule and abuse individual
So, a Democrat President created a new tax? Didn't see that one coming ;)
The supreme court fails us again. I guess all you have to do is call
something a tax and the government can do it.Of course maybe we can lay
the blame on the fools who let the 16th amendment pass.The creep of
huge socialist style government continues to "progress".We keep
moving the wrong direction.
SO their process was stopping the expansion of Medicaid to cover those
uninsured, but yet lets impose stiff penalties on those who can't afford
coverage.Is anyone else as stumped as I am that this is from a
president who's supposed to be a champion of the working poor? The only
change I see is that the poor are about to be punished a whole lot more for
being poor. Im also curious how they plan to fine the mass of
uninsured "undocumented" that this very paper has been running a series
on in relation to how underinsured they are. Furthermore, how is it
we've come to a place in history where insurance is NEEDED because our care
is that high? Only a decade ago, I was a uninsured student, and when I got
banged up in an accident, I was able to go to a clinic, and pay off my injured
rotator cuff in reasonable monthly installments over a reasonable amount of
obama promised to not raise taxes on anyone making less than 250,000. Yet his
signature law is ruled a tax. Thanks for an additional tax increase. Which you
know the numbers are not going to be correct, and within a short time
they'll be raising this tax over and over again on us. Stating that they
have the obligation to pay more and more.Just watch and see who
becomes richer off of this. Very few will benefit from it.I suppose
they can now force us to buy light bulbs of their choosing....oh wait they
already haveOr maybe dictate what kind of food and drink we can
have....oh wait they already haveThey'll probably make quotas
of race and gender to hire....oh wait they already haveMaybe
they'll start allowing dogs (non service) in restaurants and
kitchens.....oh they are already working on thatA country where we
have few choices, just dictators to tell us what to do, when to do it, how to do
So if We The People have to provide the money to people who must pay for health
care coverage but who cannot afford to, I presume this new money will be
forcably extracted from my wallet. Or China had better get out the big check
The solicitor general argued it was a penalty, not a tax. Obama said it was a
penalty, not a tax. How in the world is it now a tax? All the more reason for
a change in the white house.
This really stinks for the free loaders. Personal responsiblity can be
difficult, but I think it is something that had to be done for the well being of
our great nation.
This ruling will motivate thinking Americans everywhere with a fury not seen in
a very long time to vote Obama out of office. This economy-destroying law will,
nay must, be repealed. This win was bad for the country, but ultimately better
for Romney than Obama since most Americans see it for what it is and will vote
accordingly.Legally, I'm deeply disappointed in Chief Justice
Roberts...he allowed himself to be sold on the lie that this is a "tax"
that Obama's Solicitor General perpetrated in open court, when the Obama
administration avoided making it a tax like the plague when pushing the law
because the American people would never have accepted that. This is clearly NOT
a tax in any way, not in the real world. I understand the leftie lemmings on
the court buying that, but not John Roberts. It looks like his motive was to go
to great lengths to let a law stand out of deference to the legislature, even
one he admitted was a bad one. But it's the Supreme Court's JOB to
strike down clearly unconstitutional laws like this one; not force-fit it into
Allright, the Supreme Court is supreme. That means stop your constant whining
and follow the law.
Sad, sad day
A death blow for America and our medical community! I am truly shocked.We must change the White House in November!
Governor Romeny was right about this individual mandate.
Another win for the good guys! Let the ranting begin. But as you rant consider
this: "It came to pass … there began to be some
disputings among the people; and some were lifted up unto pride and boastings
because of their exceedingly great riches, yea, even unto great persecutions;
For there were many merchants in the land, and also many lawyers, and many
officers."And the people began to be distinguished by ranks,
according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were
ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because
of their riches. … And thus there became a great inequality in all the
land." (3 Nephi 6:4-14)Does this passage cause any concern for
anyone in Utah, or will the majority of Utahns vote for Mitt no matter what?
I'm guessing the latter.
Thank you John Roberts!
Congratulations, Mr. President!
@Pete1215So you don't think you are paying for others healthcare now?
The price you pay at the hospital is inflated due to the fact that a hospital is
not allowed to turn away anyone in need of medical treatment.
How many Utahns will put aside their contempt for My Awesome President and try
to be good-sports and patriotic citizens? Can you dig down and find
that "extra gene of patriotism" and make Mike Lee proud!?
Remember the Boston Tea Party! Remember the reasons it occured regarding the
British Throne's Tax Policy. The Democrats have forced a tax upon everyone
that the majority did not want. Payback is coming in November.
Re: "Whos Life RU Living?" 8:46Freeloaders will still be
freeloading, it will just cost the rest of us more. If you don't make a
certain income, someone else has to pay your insurance, which will cost more
than free trips to the ER were costing. You also just added another middle man,
the one who can't even run the postal service in a profitable fashion,
which will increase costs. Eventually costs will be so high, the rationing will
begin. I read an article showing the tax increases that now come into play, not
on the 1%, but everyone who breaths. The 7.5% starting point for medical
deductions now goes to 10% before you can deduct. Your medical savings account
just took a hit as well. Dig into this and we just bankrupted the country. Did
you know that "INNOVATOR DRUG COMPANIES" (researchers for cures) took a
HUGE HIT which will discourage research, health care costs will rise and cures
become more difficult (money that could have been spent on research no goes to
pay for the freeloaders). If you think this is good for America, time will prove
Way to go Utah for voting Hatch in again. He is the one that first started this
health care with individual mandate. He was the one that voted for each of these
Supreme Court nominees except the last because he knew his job was on the line.
He said before that he wouldn't fight the Dems nominees believing it was
their right if they were in power despite the fact that they fought everyone of
the Republicans nominees. And way to go to make sure Roberts got on the court
Hatch. Why is it that Ginsburg always votes the liberal way but the so called
conservatives on the court are not really conservatives. Since I didn't
vote for Hatch I sure don't think it's fair that I'm stuck with
this mess of a health care law. Watch for Hatch to make a big deal about this
acting like he will save the day when he was the problem from the beginning.
I'm just so mad at Utah voters and those who didn't even show up to
vote. How he is thought of as a conservative is beyond me.
New motto for the Statue of Liberty... "Abandon all hope ye who enter
Conservatives say they want a court that adheres to the law and to the
constitution regardless. Be careful what you wish for.1) US
Constitution : Article 1 Section 8 Congress shall have Power To lay and
collect Taxes, .. to promote the general welfare.2) William
Shakespeare A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
i.e. A tax by any other name ( mandate ) is still a tax.
As someone with a chronic condition, I'm glad I can no longer be
discriminated against in the health care market. You people complaining about
this great lack of freedom have no idea what a lack of freedom truly is. Try
health care bills for life that without insurance would bankrupt you and your
Republicans will huff and puff, but they're not really upset about this.
Individual mandate was their idea. If were up to Democrats, we'd have
The Supreme Court just put the final nail in Obama's coffin.So
don't be mad...they actually did us a favor.
Good for the country!!! Free loaders now have to invest for their own health
care!! Amazes me how some of these conservative justices try to twist the law.
Congress creates law not the courts. Scalia is a disgrace to wear the black
Who's John Gault??
At last, the SCOTUS has showed some common sense. It's about time everybody
paid their fair share for a problem we all share.
Expansion of government and government power ALWAYS hurts our standard of living
and solvency. This is not "progressive"--it's drastically
REGRESSIVE. I spent a quarter century working with every level of government,
and I can guarantee you that this too will hurt our chances for a bright future
here. But just like Greece, our decisions at the ballot box may affect not only
our standard of living and way of life, but ultimately even our chances for
survival. This thing was a disaster to begin with, and if you aren't yet
registered to vote and aren't playing an active role in what's
happening here with the abuse of power and position, maybe you deserve what can
very easily happen to you. I'm just so sorry that my family will also have
to ride the train to oblivion with you.
I'd like to congratulate President Obama, and Governor Romney. The health
care reform legislation they put together, comprised from the health care reform
Governor Romney wrote in Massachusettes, is a good first step to helping stop
the ridiculous exponential increases in American health care. President Obama took Governor Romney's landmark legislation, and created
a foundation for health care reform in America. This initial law can be built on
by future generations.It's about time America decided that the
qualilty of its citizens health care should not be determined by their bank
All these patriotic comments really make the tears well-up. It is so
nice to see comments from people who actually follow the admonitions of their
religion to be patriotic citizens who respect all Americans and the democratic
processes we believe in! Comments like those really make my heart swell with
pride.I'll be checking back to see if there are any.
The supreme court is using the Constitutional Taxing Powers of Government as a
tool for Racketering in order to force people into a transaction which the Court
itself explains the government cannot force you to commit to under commerce
Twice in one week. Immigration and healthcare with Roberts the deciding vote.
Let's not forget that John Roberts was selected by GW Bush.Not
the first time a Supreme Court choice turned out to be full of surprises. Earl
Warren seemed like a safe bet when Eisenhower selected him as Chief Justice.
California Governor and Dewey's VP running mate in 1948. Too soon to tell
if John Roberts will turn out to be in that mold but many conservative
Republicans must be gagging this morning.
A lot of us KNEW that the day would come when the constitution would "hang
by a thread".A word of advice: BE VERY CAREFUL from now on,
what you post online.Remember: The NDAA allows AMERICANS to be
detained and/or incarcerated without charges.The progressives, along
with their lamestream media helpers will do EVERYTHING they can to keep this
President in office!
Hopefully this will wake up some who call themselves Americans. Even if
we were to get a replacement in the White House who is willing to support
repeal, he will need a Congress who truly understands the Constitution and the
concept of "limited government".So my suggestion is to find
and support congressional candidates who not only will repeal Obamacare,but also who understand that we must not replace it with another government
program."The essence of freedom is the limitation of
government."The very force that is to protect our God given
rights has now become our greatest oppressor.Time is running out to
make the changes in Congress to return us to "limited government."It cannot be done by political action alone; we must have a
constitutionally informed electorate.Time for many, many more
Constitutional Study groups. "The Making of America" is a good place to
start. You can find it at Deseret Book and other book stores as well in both
book, CD and video formats. Was anyone really surprised at this
Thank you, President Obama and Justice Roberts!
Embarrassed utahn let's see how proud you are when you are paying thru the
teeth for your new beloved tax. Anything in the scriptures about the wickedness
of govts over taxing their people? Hmmmmmm....
Justice Roberts paused twice during his reading of the majority opinion to state
that this in no way established that this was a good law. He stated that if
people want different laws, they need elect different people.To
paraphrase Admiral Yomomoto after Pearl Harbor...They have awakened a sleeping
giant....we ride at DAWN!!!!!!
This is clearly a victory for Mitt Romney because he supported the individual
mandate in Massachusetts long before President Obama merely followed in his
footsteps with a federal individual mandate. For being first, Romney deserves
our vote.What's this? You say Mitt's now against the
individual mandate? In that case, I'll be voting to re-elect President
At first I thought that this was great because those of us who have been paying
for health insurance through the nose may get a break. Then my second thought
was "Oh this came from Obama. Nothing that dude does is for the common
good” We the people who have been paying for health insurance
for most of our lives are the ones who will lose. We'll lose our present
coverage, get higher deductibles, get less quality insurance and will become a
part of Obama care which is no care at all except for Obama's pets. Congress will have nothing to do with Obama care as their healthcare
insurance. If it's good enough for the general public, it should include
the ones on Capitol Hill. I have friends on Medicare who are already getting
priced out of site. I believe that the implementation of Obama care is already
affecting them. Obama has to go. He is acting more like a king
than a US president. I don't know why people can't see him for what
he is. America can't take four more years of this man.
@dumprake"Secret combinations continue to rule and abuse individual
liberty."Republicans pushed it as the alternative to
Hillarycare, Romney instituted it, Grassley's amendment put the mandate in
the bill before Obama agreed to it and Republicans ran from it. The mandate is
conservative policy that focuses on personal responsibility. I'm pretty
sure that makes the secret combination the Heritage Foundation.
Sorry Fitness Freak, Even with your dramatic use of ALL CAPS,
I'm just not that scared. In fact, comments like yours energize me even
more. President Obama won the election with more popular votes than any other
president in U.S. history. Does that mean anything to sore-losing ranters? I
can not wait until November when My Awesome President is rewarded for the
amazing job he's doing by decisively beating Utah Darling Mitt! Keep that
endurance up, you're gonna need it!
Based on this ruling, government has all power over our every day lives.For anyone who supports this ruling, is their a line to what government
can force you to do against your will under penalty of fine(tax)/imprisonment?
If so, where is that line and how do we know it?I submit that there
is now no line in what the government can force us to do/buy even if we were to
choose not to.This is a very sad day for freedom and liberty in
America. It's hard to say that we are the land of the free with this
Heartfelt thanks to a great American, Chief Justice Roberts! And
congratulations to another great American, President Barack Obama!
This is to confirm that people's freedom is dependent on people their
selves. Therefore, when a lot of people don't pay tax anymore, America is
sliding into a "free" socialist world. I hope, by electing Mitt Romeny
as our next POTUS, America would be changed for better future.
On a side note 100,000 doctors just decided to retire.
At this time it could be considered to be a huge victory for the Obama
administration however I disagree. In fact this ruling only seemed to muddy the
waters when taken in its entirety and in conjunction with the law as it
currently stands. It seems that what Roberts did was simply force congresses to
go back and fix the problems. The ACA has become untenable and it will not work
as it stands with the current SCOTUS decisions. That is because there is no
funding for it.I say this simply due to the fact that if an
individual refuses to pay the fine there is nothing that the IRS can do. Not a
single thing at all. This is simply because they cannot force you to pay said
tax. They can't garnish, or put a lein on your assets or any other
enforcement like unto it. They can't even take you to court. This law will
go unfunded this law is not the solution. Repeal and replace.
When my doctor retired and we hadn't let medi (whatever) know who our new
Dr was right away (we didn't think it was necessary because we didn't
need to see one for over 6 months) they assigned us a Dr in St George. We
called and tried to explain that St George was 400 miles south of us. The
reponse was, it couldn't be. These are the people who will be taking
care of your health care. Good luck!Also, you will see the older, more
expeienced Drs retire enmasse. So you want to see a Dr, try and find one. The
schools will be importing them from India, Mexico or affirmative action
students, rushing them through the University.Everyone will see their
taxes sky rocket, with the Bush tax plan ending, and now the admin will decide
just how much you will be paying (all of you, even us, the middle to lower
class) and you will gag!Welcome President Romney!
This will prove to be a Pyrrhic victory for Obama. Most Americans do NOT want
Obamacare, especially the individual mandate. Hopefully, they will show their
displeasure in November. Obama may have won this battle, but by doing so, it may
very likely cause him to LOSE the war.
I am pleasantly surprised with Chief Justice Roberts. I thought that he would
vote the other way. It is refreshing that unlike Scalia, Thomas, and Alito,
Roberts does not allow his political convictions to sway his every vote.
My first thought on seeing that Roberts voted for it was: What are the
conservatives getting out of this being law? Reading the posts here affirms my
answer. A reason to twist it to blaming Obama raising taxes. Another
'talking point' for Romney. Dont worry, all you people who are
against the so called 'entitlement' of good health care for everyone.
Every conservative state will opt out and the poor will not benefit. Be proud.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Can ANYONE whos cheering this on explain exactly why this is a good idea? Some
of you have cited personal responsibility. I am all for that, and don't
depend on anyone for anything. However, what about the single moms who wait
tables? They're going to pay their rent before Medical insurance they
don't really need at the time. What about the convienence store clerks who
are about to get their gas shut off? You think they're really concerned
about getting decent health care?Sometimes, it's NOT a sense of
responsibility that keeps you from getting health coverage as much as it is your
own wallet. Some people have resources stretched much thinner then others, and
they can only stretch so far.
I blame this on Chief Justice Roberts. Who appointed this activist judge to the
So if you are living with too much month and not enough paycheck. You need to
but health insurance and if you are too poor to pay for health insurance you are
going to be fined? This came from a Democratic president?
The Republicans aren't mad because they hate Obamacare. After all, the
Republicans INVENTED Obamacare. They came up with the idea of the individual
mandate in the first place; they only decided it was unconstitutional after
Obama borrowed the idea from them.Now they're just kicking
themselves because they went to so much trouble to name their idea after him.
This story is just plain wrong. The individual mandate was found to be
unconstitutional. The decision, on page 59, reads "The individual mandate
cannot be upheld as an exercise of Congress’s power under the Commerce
Clause. That Clause authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce, not to
order individuals to engage in it." The tax that may exist,
depending on income, still stays. But it is your choice. And because the
individual mandate and medicaid requirements forced on states have been found to
be unconstitutional, the financial burden to insurance companies and businesses
continues without the requirement that people buy insurance. Insurance companies still have to carry kids on parents insurance until the
age of 26, insurance will still have to ignore pre-existing conditions, they
still have to sell you insurance right before surgery and, I expect, premiums
will go way up.With the coming financial burdens due to the lost of
the individual mandate, I would say that Obama lost this one.
To all you whiners over the Supreme Court ruling on the mandate: What is it you
don't understand about the law?
Last weekend, the Wall Street Journal, no friend of the President and the law,
wrote: "In short, the GOP may be positioning itself to become the dog that
caught the car. Political and policy uncertainty is perhaps inevitable given the
range of what the Court could do. But the Republicans need a more coherent
strategy.... The larger problem is that despite two years of incanting
"repeal and replace," Republicans still haven't formed an
intellectual let alone popular consensus for the "replace" part.... An
orderly unwinding of ObamaCare was always going to be difficult. But based on
its disarray and confusion so far, the GOP may be making it harder."I have seen nothing in GOP huffing and puffing to alter the WSJ view on
this. They have no ideas, no leadership on the issue.
All I can say is -- Yes!That, and "I told you so.", but I
don't want to add insult to injury.Next up -- Get the "For
Profit" Middle man Insurance Companies out, and implement a Single payer
SLC gal asks "Can ANYONE whos cheering this on explain exactly why this is a
good idea?"It is a good idea because the Federal government can no
longer afford Reagan Care. Reagan Care is the law which says emergency rooms
cannot turn people away. If you, as a struggling single working mother, choose
not to buy insurance, you show up at the emergency room when you children have
the sniffles. Someone has to pay that bill. Its a VERY expensive bill, much
more than if you went to a regular doctor.The idea of the Affordable Care
Act was to reduce cost through insurance, since insurance companies negotiate
lower rates. If everyone has insurance, they will seek care through a normal
doctor's visit. If you are truly without means to buy insurance, it is
cheaper for state/federal government to provide insurance to you than to pay
your emergency room bill.
"Freedom is gone from the land. If socialists can require this, they can
require anything else"This seems to be representative of the
opposition's sentiments. Specifically how is freedom gone from
the land?They are in no way shape or form socialist. Do you know
what a socialist is?Why do you people not complain about the state
requirement for auto insurance? To the individual the source of the mandate is
irrelevant. State or federal, it's still mandated.
People forget that ALL of us who are "responsible" and have been paying
for our own medical insurance and care have all been paying a hidden tax every
time we've had medical expenses. At least 30% of our expenses have gone to
pay for care given to people who are uninsured -- either by choice or by
circumstance.Another 30% of our insurance premiums are skimmed off
the top as profit by insurance companies.This law and court ruling
do nothing more than bring that hidden tax out into the open. It's a big
win for all of us. Even for those who are not smart enough to realize that.
And Romney is still yowling and promising to repeal this. One more reason to
vote against Romney.
This news is absolutely horrifying. These slick Washington DC fast talkers are
taking away our libery! I am going to move down to LaVerkin where I can live in
Freedom with my family. We will be able to purchase everything we need at the
local Walmart. I hear it's beautiful down there.
But wait,O told me my taxes wouldn't go up. Imagine that...he lied.
You can expect your health insurance premiums to SKYROCKET as insurance
companies are forced to pay billions in claims to cover pre-existing conditions
for people who have never paid any premiums. This is but one more example of
Obama's ignorance as to how the real world operates. Nice work Obama.....
This is the best thing for our country and our future. I believe John Roberts
saw this as something positive for his legacy.
Moderate-You're making quite a few assumptions there.
Who's to say that the single working mother will take time out of her
schedule to make an appointment for a few weeks in the future, pay the copay,
and take her sick children to the doctor's office, when she can continue to
just visit the ER immediately? I think a safer assumption would be that the
same people who do not have insurance right now, whether because of resources or
other reasons, would generally also be the same people who won't use
preventative medicine, even if it's available to them.Let me
ask you a question: Why is a trip to the ER for sniffles so much more expensive
than a trip to the clinic? Is there a significant difference in the amount of
resources being expended by the hospital? I can't see how. The demand is
significantly different, which would explain the higher price. What happens
when millions more Americans are now going to clinics? The demand goes up. In
fact, if anything, resource consumption will go up, meaning more money spent.
Will there be any part of our of lives not touched by a government
regulation?Will the IRS collect the taxes on those not paying for
mandatory insurance taxes. Can they repo our property?With so many
out of work, or under paid, how are people going to pay for insurance or the
taxes for not having it?
So, Chief Justice John Roberts followed the Conservative Justices on the DC
Court of Appeals and upheld ACA. Actually im shocked. The Roberts
court has an unprecedented record for ruling against the Solicitor General. Re:VoiceResorting to name calling are we?
Funny how Utah repubs didn't show anywhere near this much outrage when
president Larry the Cable guy decided to start a moronic search for WMD's
that didn't even exist...
RedneckLefty,"The Republicans aren't mad because they hate
Obamacare. After all, the Republicans INVENTED Obamacare. They came up with the
idea of the individual mandate in the first place; they only decided it was
unconstitutional after Obama borrowed the idea from them."The
Republicans aren't very good poker players. They proposed the mandate
thinking there was no way Obama would go for it and they would come out looking
like the ones trying to fix health care. What a fix they now find themselves in.
Tax without representation didn't really happen as we had representation
but ruled by the President who doesn't know Integrity who pushed both House
and Senate Leaders to dictate their party members vote for Obamacare or they
couldn't ever go home from the session. We live in a world where we need
another Boston party by someone who lived in Massachusetts when it comes to
January 20, 2013. Taxes appear in so many ways through assessments, fines,
fees, and myriads of ways that Legislators and Executives are various levels
work their best to take money from citizens pockets, whether those constituents
agree to the plan or not. Our indirect election process works, usually.
However, Senator Reid and Representative Pelosi did their best at subscribing to
the Obamacare process and now our highest Court didn't want to deal with
taxes, just like our Secretary of the Treasury. How are they going to get money
if people take the Geithner way and don't buy insurance and just pay the
taxes by penalty? We live in a strange world that is the real world of everyone
out to get the next person before they are had by that person.
Dave,An auto insurance mandate is a regulation of commercial
activity--namely, owning and operating a vehicle. The Constitution allows for
regulation of commercial activity. A health insurance mandate is regulating
what commercial activity? Living? A majority of the Justices agree with me,
but passed this mandate as a "tax" instead. Stupid semantics that will
just open the door for future Congressional mandates disguised as taxes.
What's next? Gym taxes? Broccoli taxes? American made car taxes?one old man,30% profit for insurance companies, huh? With that
kind of margin, I'd expect to see people clamoring to start their own
insurance companies, if it's such a gold mine industry. I'd be
interested to see your source on those numbers.
Regardless of decision by the SCOTUS, Obamacare is bad policy, ignoring the
natural flow of life all to satisfy gratification of the dems will destroy
everything we care about in society, Hyperbole aside, this is bad policy,
totally unsustainable, God help us.
We are becoming more like Europe or our neighbor to the north, Canada, with
basically socialized health care for anyone that wants to come through our
borders. We will take care of the whole world and get rid of our free
enterprise, which then gets rid of our healthcare through taxes. Then, why
would people want to come here? They can still get free education that some tax
payers pay for through property taxes or equivalent. The type of Soviet
Socialist Republic didn't really work and we spent billions and trillions
of dollars to fight that type of system. Now that friendly Europe has blended
in with each other's social issues they are falling apart as they
can't afford all the social programs that some of those countries had
during socialism. We aren't a country with the rich fighting the poor. We
have a system of people that work and find ways to work. Some jobs have moved
overseas due to politics and governmental regulations and others have surfaced
to find new ways, through inventive people. Immigration is another part of the
process that government hasn't dealt with as those people want elections
I am really enjoying the angst of the right wingers here. Keep it up, but 20
years from now this measure will be in place, benefiting many. I would have
preferred single payer, but I'll take what I can get.
Largest tax increase in world history! Hmm" Thought our taxes wouldn't
go up a dime?
Here is how I see it. We already have a socialist health care system, we already
pay for all of the people that hospitals are legally bound to treat, they
CAN'T turn them away. We are already paying for them. We now have a law
that says they have to chip in and pay their fair share, how is this a bad
thing? Add on top of that all the other good things the law does, no
rescinding coverage, no lifetime caps on coverage, no denying children coverage,
no denying coverage for pre-existing conditions (I have fallen into that one
before), children staying on their parents plans until they are 26, preventative
care covered, etc...Combine all those things together and I feel
like this is a win for the country. Obviously others feel differently.Also for anyone saying that Obama has manipulated the courts and influcneced
their decision consider this. This ruling is only going to make it that much
harder for Obama to get elected, it has lit a raging fire under the
conservatives to get him out of office this November, in reality the supreme
court hasn't done him no favor.
I have lost complete faith in the United States and I fear for my kids and
grandkids. The America they are going to inherit will be far different than
their parents and grandparents. The "new America" will be a mirror of
what you see in Europe today with a single payer health care system complete
with watered down coverage and of course the "death panels" which
equates to having politicians deciding whether grandpa is worth getting that
cancer treatment or heart transplant based on his overall "worth" to
society. But what's done is done and Obama won. I expect this victory to
propel Obama to an easy victory in the upcoming election simply because this
ruling validates everything the man has done... right or wrong ... Obama has won
and the American people are now entering a new world never imagined by our
founders. The federal government is all - powerful now and I expect a second
Obama term to take full advantage of that reality with all sorts of rulings and
taxes and mandates... say goodbye to individual freedom and your individual
rights. America will become Europe in 4 years - complete with bankruptcy. Time
to focus on family.
So John Roberts was great yesterday and evil today?
This is very similar to the Congress forcing banks to make loans to people that
couldn't pay for their new property and then defaulted or worse yet, the
banks say they went broke. What a shame we can now go through a similar process
with health insurance. Doctors and nurses have ethics codes and now that more
of these professionals will start working for companies that their corporate
officers not necessarily fall into those same ethics rules. It will still be a
person eat person world. Some people want everything for nothing, without
working because they are entitled to it. Congress and even Presidents have
entitled more and more people to go on the dole without lifting too many
fingers. I think of what our Constitution, Flag and government establishment
has meant to our Forefathers and as we approach the 4th of July and think of
that day in 1776, I believe those people would not be happy with this type of
sentiment from the Court that hadn't yet been established. Politics will
help decide our fate but those in the military who fought and served for our
country are people all around us who may be ashamed.
For those who are cheering this overreach by the government, I have to ask are
you that dense?? Do you not understand that Obama and his congress have added
the most expensive entitlement program in the history of this country? Do you
not realize there is no way to pay for this unless taxes are raised in a major
way? Are you not paying half your paycheck in taxes already...you want to pay
more? Of course some of the candy in this legislation sounds very appealing. Do
you not realize that everything comes at a price (a fact Obama seems to be
completely oblivious to)? Why? Because it isn't his money. And what of all
the other entitlement programs that have proven totally unsustainable and are on
the brink of bankruptcy? Do you believe this will be any different? Do you
believe the government uses your money more efficiently than you can? All I can
say is WAKE UP!!
@photographermom"Embarrassed utahn let's see how proud you are
when you are paying thru the teeth for your new beloved tax."A
tax that only applies if you don't have insurance? A tax that isn't
even enforcable? A tax to cover the cost those uninsured people pass on to
insurance buyers when they go to the emergency room? I don't know about
embarrassed utahn but I have insurance, I'm taxed 0 dollars by the
mandate.@SLCgalThe small business doesn't have to cover
insurance unless they have at least 50 employers, so that's not an issue.
As for the waitress mom? Starting in 2014 Obamacare gives out subsidies to those
with lower incomes to help them purchase insurance. I imagine she would qualify.
@Fitz"The individual mandate was found to be
unconstitutional. "That's not true, if it were it'd be
struck down because unconstitutional things would be ruled out by the court.
got to love the fear mongering "patriots" of the far right declaring the
death of our country, nice to know that such "patriots" have so much
faith in their fellow Americans.
All the more reason to vote come November!
I am happy that my 21 year old daughter can now have coverage til age 26. That
is actually a really good thing. My worry - and it should be a worry for all
liberals or conservatives - is the fact that this new "TAX" is going to
grow and grow. Take a long look at Europe and the cost of socialized medicine is
enormous and ever growing. The cost of this will be passed along to small
business and all business which means a business's ability to hire new
employees just got alot harder and much more expensive starting in 2014. This
translates to business's simply cutting their work force to accommodate
this new TAX and all the mandates that go along with it. Having worked for
several business's like Novell and IHC I understand how they determine
whether to hire/fire it is all based on expenses - Obamacare will be a HUGE
expense that is mandated for all business starting in 2014. This is a stark fact
that we will ALL have to face. The bottom line - the US workforce will have to
shrink as companies run super lean.
Thank you Mitt Romney for inspiring ACA!
Built2Last, JWB, patriot, etc, could you please be more dramatic? "Oh
it's the end of the country as we know it" blah blah blah. If this
country can survive eight years of the idiot Bush and his handlers, we can
survive anything... I bet Glenn Beck will cry about it... Oh wait,
does he still have a job?
All the more reason for Utahns to vote in November for a candidate you were
already going to vote for...
Today's poll....60% of Americans FAVOR the Supreme Court
ruling38% Oppose it.Conservative Utahans - with it's
solid Republican majority but less than 0.98% of the total U.S. Population can
scream foul until the cows come home, doesn't matter come November. Romney would have done better in the general election to hang his hat on
HIS Healthcare program.Instead - Obama will go down in history for
getting re-elected by it.Sad twist of Iraony....
"The bottom line - the US workforce will have to shrink as companies run
super lean."And startups who can run more efficiently will steal
those shrinking companies' lunch money.Only the dumbest
managers in America will see this and think "gee, I have to cut staff".
Actually - I can see this motivating liberals as much as conservatives. Liberals
now understand they are close to the finish line to now turning America into a
socialist state which was the goal all along. I doubt liberals are going to shy
away from the fight now being so close to their goal. So the question for all is
this? What will America be like in 20 years now that we have become Europe? Take
a long look at Europe today - Greece and so many other countries are dying under
the heavy hand of socialism. Their economies are bankrupt and looking for bail
out in desperation. Does anyone think America will be any different? The
American people are now a liberal majority - like Europe - and like Europe will
continue to elect socialist presidents - like France just did. Say goodbye to
personal freedom and get used to the BIG federal government controlling
everything in your life. I have a feeling that many liberals today are going to
be wishing they could turn back the hands of time in a few years after they see
the scary state of their once prosperous America. Unemployment at 20% here we
A great day for America and thank you to a courageous President and Chief
Justice. I did not see this coming and I had even resigned myself to wishful
thinking. "Well, when President Obama is reelected, he'll go at it
harder next time,--single payer." This is a big, big win for Obama and an
even bigger win for America, as today we began to see character returned to our
Supreme Court. Obamacare is not perfect and we will need to tweak and fix until
the weekend free clinics are a thing of the past and poor children have a chance
to grow up without a mouthful of poison where their teeth used to be. But
Universal Health Care is now with us and it's not going anywhere. Wow! What
a week! The BCS is history and Obamacare is alive!
These comments are hilarious. Especially the ones predicting doom for our
country. Haha. Hilarious.
If we think the Congress will take of this issue we are sadly mistaken. The
Congress failed this Nation to allow such a monster to be signed into law.
Where will the money come from? We are broke. How is any of this possible?
Congress as a whole should be fired. Where are the leaders for term limits?
Why have we become helpless and hopeless. The only groups that will benifit
from this disaster are the insurance compaines and those in their hip pocket.
Where will all the doctors come from? What a sad, sad day.
The so-called liberals and leftist are celebrating this Scotus decision. I
think that is hilarious. This is the most regressive tax passed in decades.
Every single American falls under this tax, call it a penalty, whatever, it is a
tax, massive new revenues goes to gov. The government could not raise enough
money trying to find those scarce millionaires to cover even a few days of their
deficit, so now every American is going to be sending money to the government,
or their boss or their parents will have to send it, one way or another, your
paycheck juat got hit with a big tax and if you sell your home you are going to
send a huge check to uncle sam. You are celebrating this? Since I have a
Health Saving Accout, it will go up some, but for every American, 50% who do not
pay any fed tax they are now now going to be sending money to Uncle Sam. This
is regressive redistribution of taxes. Sweet, pay your fair share, but the gov
will spend it on anything they like, your health care just got iffy!
It is absolutely amazing how much conservative is being pumped out here. When
will these people start trying to learn even the most basic facts before
I need to make a correction to something I wrote earlier. I said the 30%
insurance companies take off the top of our premiums are "profit." That
was not correct. The 30% is operating costs -- although medicare's
operating costs are much less -- only about 10% of the 30% is profit.Sorry. I try to fact check before I post, but sometimes I slip up.
Indians and Chinese are really celebrating this. They spent 70 years in their
long socialist and communist nightmares, they are set for a big advance in their
positions in the world economy. Since things move much more quickly these days,
I'm guessing 20 years before the complete collapse of the USA. We are
Lets review what the ACA has done, and the contradicitons it contains.First, they claim that they will make insurance cheaper by mandating that
everybody get insurance, but then take the group that uses insurance the least
and lets them stay on their parents insurance, which costs the parents more, but
is less than their own policy.Next, the ACA was supposed to lower
the cost of insurance (not care), but the ACA added new mandates to insurance
policies. Each of those mandates will raise the price of insurance. How are
more people supposed to buy insurance if the Government mandates keep raising
the price?The ACA's clause for the individual mandate was sold
to the public as being a fine, not a tax. If the SCOTUS has declared it a tax,
then does that mean that the politicians who wrote the bill lied? If they lied,
do you really trust them to do what is right?If this is truely
modeled after Romneycare, have you looked at the skyrocketing costs that
Massachusetts has seen for their government plan? Who is going to pay for this
once the costs outpace the initial budget idea?
One old man,10% profit, huh? Again, cite your sources. As for
insurance company costs vs. medicare costs, how familiar are you with either?
Any idea about how, say, overhead costs are accounted for in government entities
"Constitutional Principles of State and Local Taxation." That was the
title of a class I took at law school. My cynical take? If anything exists or
occurs, it likely can -- and will -- be taxed.Now, as a matter of
federal taxation policy, it would appear that if there is anything that you do
NOT do, you can be taxed for it.Say you do not purchase health
insurance. Here comes the tax man.You do not eat asparagus. Fork
over the cash.You do not buy a Chevy Volt. Check the "pay
up" box on your Form 1040.You do not lose those extra 25 pounds.
Loosen your purse strings.You do not sign a pledge to support gay
marriage. Tax you.You do not relinquish your gun. Pay up.The power to tax is the power to destroy. Query: What here is being destroyed?
I laugh so much at those of my fellow Mormons who think this ruling is part of
"the Constitution hanging by a thread". I'm sorry, but when the
Constitution REALLY started hanging by a thread was somewhere in between
Nixon's trying to end-run around Congress with dirty money and Watergate,
Reagan's end-run around Congress with the Iran-Contra affair, the PATRIOT
Act under Bush the Younger, and the Citizens United decision. Where was Jon
McNaughton and his so-called "art" then?Seriously, anyone
who's truly read, truly understood, and truly believed in the Book of
Mormon shouldn't be voting Republican at all, and it astounds me that so
many American Mormons think that voting for the party that's in favour of
prideful riches and demeaning the poor is A Good Idea.
Oh, one old man? I WORK for one of America's largest health insurance
companies. Our profit margin is in the 4-5% range, and our competitors are in
the same boat. Our claims ratio (what's the percentage of claims paid over
premiums collected) varies in different businesses, but it's often around
80%, which means about 15% operating costs. So, yeah, people, please get your
facts straight before making stupid arguments.
Some wind will come out of Romney's sails. Romney has stated that states
are ok to mandate insurance on their own, inferring that it is not legal or
constitutional for the feds to do it. So what is now? is Obama Care a good
thing or is it a bad thing and why?
@Fitness Freak;Romney's standing by with a pair of scissors to
cut that thread.
And you thought 2010 was a drastic change. Wait. The Supreme Court has spoken
and this is the law of the land. Now the people will speak and there will be a
A good day for the United States of America.We are finally entering
the noble circle of developed nations. Nations where the welfare of all citizens
is a concern of all citizens.Call it socialism, call it whatever you
want, I will call call it social justice and accept that I'm the keeper of
my brother.I'm pleasantly surprised with Chief Justice Roberts.
@Badger55: The solicitor general argued it was a penalty, not a tax. Obama said
it was a penalty, not a tax. How in the world is it now a tax? All the more
reason for a change in the white house."Couldn't agree
more.We have a clear example of how the Supreme Court has taken over
the Legislative and Executive branches of government. The Court has rewritten
an act of Congress by replacing the word 'penalty' with the words
'tax.' It's that simple. If the Congress and the President
wanted the word 'tax' in the law, they would have put the word
'tax' in the law. But they expressly did not want the word
'tax' in the law. Both the President and Democrat members of the
Congress stated over and over again that the 'penalty' was not a
'tax,' no way, no how. Period. It is a sad day in America when the
Judicial Branch of government is loaded with stupidity.The Congress
has the authority to levy taxes to pay expenses to run the government. When it
expressly did not put the word 'tax' in a piece of legislation, they
mean just that... not something else.
Villains’ Payback Some Democrats have painted the industry as the
enemy of efforts to improve the health-care system. House Speaker Nancy
Pelosi has called insurers “villains,” WellPoint head Angela
Braly was hauled before Congress in February to explain what Chairman
Henry Waxman called “a breathtaking increase” in customer premiums, and Obama warned the industry in June not to undermine the
law’s implementation. Many of the insurer campaign
contributions are aimed at congressional Democrats’ top Republicans
rivals. WellPoint, Humana and Aetna Inc. gave $10,000 to House Minority
Leader John Boehner of Ohio, who would probably take Pelosi’s job as speaker if Republicans win the House. Representative Joe Barton of Texas, the
top Republican on the Energy and Commerce Committee headed by Waxman, got
$4,500 from WellPoint. Many of the other contributions are to Republican
candidates trying to knock off vulnerable first-term Democrats. Banking on Republicans The campaign funding numbers represent a shift
forinsurers, who previously gave to Republicans by only a 2-to-1 margin.
WellPoint, based in Indianapolis, favored Republicans the most among
the companies. Not a single dollar of its $144,000 that went to federal
candidates and political committees in July was given to a Democrat, the
The dearth of logic in the arguments against the Affordable Care act is
disturbing. I believe that it would be accurate to claim that no one who has
posted on this blog is a constitutional scholar nor has a JD.Arguments suggesting that the government does not have the power to levy a tax
against individuals is laughable. Obama is a socialists? Then the definition of
socialist needs to be re-defined. Romney against the mandate? He pushed through
Mass Health which is the model for the Affordability Health Care Act. It's
difficult to keep up where Romney stands on a whole assortment of topics. True conservatives should take this as imperfect legislation to hold
people accountable. The majority of American don't approve this legislation
for two reasons:1. They simply do not understand the law.2. They
already receive healthcare at the expense of others, taxpayers and policy
holders, and don't want to pay their fair share.The legislation
is not perfect but its a move in the right direction.
PART 1 OF THIS POST:This is what the Supreme Ruling will do for Womens and
others. Affordable Care Act offers women.1 * Being a woman
is no longer a "pre-existing condition." Yes, women were denied coverage for just being women before the Affordable Care Act was law. * Insurance companies can't charge you more for being a woman
either. Before the Affordable Care Act was law, women were sometimes
charged up to 150% more than men of the same age. * Breast
cancer screenings, cervical cancer screenings, domestic violence counseling and screenings and a whole bunch of other preventive care measures
must be covered by insurance companies. * Birth control is
now covered by health insurance. * Children can stay on their
parents' health insurance until they're 26 years old. And if you
want to have kids, the law will help you get pre-natal care and counseling
and help with breast feeding and supplies too.
Part 2:What the Supreme Court Ruling will do for womens and other.And here are some of the important benefits for everyone.2 *
Insurance companies can't take away your coverage if you become too sick.
* You cannot be denied insurance coverage because of a pre-existing
condition. * Seniors receive a 50 percent discount on prescription
drugs when they hit the "donut hole." * Small
businesses get tax credits to purchase insurance. * There are no more
lifetime limits on your coverage. * 15 million more people will
receive coverage because of expanded access to Medicaid. *
Millions of Americans are going to receive tax credits to help them get insurance--people who wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise. * 12 million seniors are currently receiving free preventative care
Bloggers on this site should stop guessing about the Supreme's Ruling on
Healthcare and what it means for American's. The Media was confuse as to
what it ment and you listen to them and trying to plug in what you think it
means is just wrong.Some you think it a TAX and some of you think
its Government owned and calling it socialist which is also wrong.I
guess no one read Justice Robert's explation regarding the Tax,maybe you
should HEALTHCARE.GOV. and read what Justice Robert said about the Tax part.
Health insurance does not equate to health care. Healthcare is a personal
responsibility, right diet, right living, exercise, etc; Those things that
actually help a person maintain their health.Insurance is to help
pay for health crisis intervention. The mandate requires everyone to have
insurance. Those that practice good health care will be subsidizing medical
costs of those that have not practiced good health care. Certainly this
generalization does not apply to everyone, there are exceptions, but generally
speaking there are too many people in the USA that have poor health because they
have not taken care of their health.
@OneAmerican: "Eventually costs will be so high, the rationing will
begin."True... Furthermore, the medical profession, (Doctors,
etc.) will have their fees cut to the point where they can just barely eke out a
living. This will force future doctors to strongly consider other professions.
Or, we will see a heavy infux of poorly trained doctors from foreign
countries.We have a living, breathing example of what happens when
the government takes over healthcare... Elderly folk now have a hard time
finding a primary care doctor who will take them as a new patient if they are 65
or older and/or on Medicare. Why? Because the doctors' fees under
Medicare are severely cut by the government.Soon you will not be
able to find a good doctor to treat your ailments. Soon what has been dubbed
the best healthcare in the entire world will be reduced to the level you might
find in the middle of Africa.This very day, our country took a giant
step toward a socialist country. Mark this day on your calendar in big
My conservative friends have been squawking about this all day. I frankly
haven't had this much fun since Al Gore got the Nobel Peace Prize.The hilarious thing is that the individual mandate was the idea of Republicans
- including Orrin Hatch who sponsored a bill containing it in the 1990s. Mitt
Romney is also on the record praising the idea. Yet when you talk
about the individual parts of this bill without attributing them to Obama, most
people in Utah are all in favor of it.This is a great victory for
the American people.
We the people have been educated, brainwashed, and given welfare, by a high
spending government.Like an unseen decaying tooth, we'll soon
feel an ache that will bring us to our knees, and we'll yearn for the good
ole days.We will not see our taxes go up a single dime. Ha! Ha!
@atl134 let me try to explain. When somebody needs medical attention but
doesn't have a job because our economy stinks and can't get insurance
who do you think will flip the bill? The IRS can't go after them they
don't have an income hence your taxes and my taxes get raised to pay for
those who can't!
Good to know we have a government of "limited power".
@nanook of the north, I get so sick of democrats using the book of Mormon as an
argument. Go and read President Bensons talk on the constitution and listen to
what he has to say on socialism and our nation. Do democrats go to their local
meetings with the mantra "Jesus would be a democrat?". Seriously I want
I guess we'll soon find out if I am right that the majority of Utahns only
believe themselves to be limited government conservatives. In reality they love
government intervention into our lives. It's like a comfy blanket to
protect them from individual responsibility. I don't believe
the Governor or the people have the guts to "just say no" to the drug of
"federal" money and control.IWNCp.s. Orrin &
Mitt blah, blah, blah Maybe they'll try to make changes but we'll
still be left with more government on our backs. If it gets fully repealed
without being replaced with a GOP version I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
This thread is hiiiiiiilarious to read. Didn't see this comin did ya? You
were wrong about the constitutionality of the law and you are wrong about
it's consequences. Politicaly this is a massive win for Obama and could be
the final nail in Romneys hopes. Will this fire up the conservative
base? Of course it will, but what are they going to do now..light their hair on
fire? They all ready hated Obama and were going to work tirelessly to defeat
him. Nothing new to see here just move on. On the other hand Obama has a new
platform to describe the benefits..and millions of folks who have been helped by
the bill to this point to tell their story. Romney on the other hand has come
up with something better in health care, defend his approval of an immiration
law that is unconstitutional,defend his opposition to equal pay for women.
@worfwho exactly do you think " the government" is?
So President Obama has spoken about the "broken" healthcare system in
the U.S. President Obama has spoken about the volume of fraud in our healthcare
system. So the first chance he gets, he jacks up our taxes, and puts more and
more and more money into our broken healthcare system.There is
another way to obtain healthcare for all.
The Obama administration argued that the mandate was not a tax. The SCOTUS
corrected him and said it was a tax and that congress has the ability to levy
taxes. They also said that the ACA cannot mandate Medicaid standards for
individual states. In essence SCOTUS upheld congresses right to tax and gutted
ACA by its inability to regulate point-of-care criteria. The court also did not
tell Obama how to make the ACA affordable, which it is not as it stands.
screenname,"An auto insurance mandate is a regulation of
commercial activity--namely, owning and operating a vehicle. "Talk about semantics. Me driving my kids to the park is no more a commercial
activity than breathing.Healthcare is a basic necessity. Absolutely
everyone will have contact with healthcare in their lives. Those that can afford
healthcare already have insurance. Those that don't, go the emergency
department and typically default on thousands of dollars worth of service. We
are already paying for them. This new plan should reduce the incidence of people
using the emergency department as primary care.Nobody has been able
to show me where their freedom is being compromised. This means that freedom is
just a straw man argument.
Wow. I had no idea how fervently Republicans were in their dedication to opening
up the Medicare prescription drug donut hole, taking insurance away from
children with pre-existing conditions, and kicking college students off of their
parents' policies. And I'm still trying to figure out how people on
these message boards call for those things and still consider themselves
patriots and Christians.
Not many folks are arguing whether or not healthcare for everyone is a noble
goal. I would suspect we all want that.The problem is that this
mandate is an example of spending other people's money in the most
inefficient way possible. I expect more from my government.
Thank you John Roberts! You acted like Solomon and by doing that,
you insured that the Republicans would take the House, the Senate and the
Presidency in November.When you said that elections have
consequences, you reminded us that the PEOPLE need to choose a Congress and a
President who will work within the Constitution.When you said that
the health care act could TAX us if we did not have health insurance, you showed
us that Obama made the greatest political mistake of any President in history.
He raised taxes on the majority of Americans when he said that he would not
raise taxes on ANYONE who made less than $250,000 per year.Thank
you, John Roberts. Had you sided with the other conservative
justices, the Democrats would have had ammunition to help them hold on to
Congress and the Presidency. You changed all of that. Now,
it's up to the PEOPLE to vote out the liberals who passed this law and the
President who gave America the largest tax increase in history.
Not a tax on income, but a tax on behavior?
Sheriff Joe will have to ask for their medical card instead of their green card!
First, see the law--the fine isn't going to be collected. This is why we
READ. To those who complain about paying for people's health care, you have
already been doing so. The hospitals cannot turn anyone away from the emergency
room. You pay higher premiums so they can accept them, but the insurer
doesn't tell you how much it is or if your bill accounts for only your
"share" or more for their "inconvenience". This is why, with the
ACA, your premiums will go down. And you will also not have to worry if your
health takes a downturn. Further, FYI, Medicaid does, if there is an income
level in the home for the household reached, according to a formula, there can
be a copay, so some levels are not free. Don't get your knickers in a
twist, some of you, it isn't coming out of your back pocket! Try to
remember, a healthy person is more likely to be working, and if that healthy
person stays that way, he/she can take a job even if it's one that
doesn't offer medical insurance, if it's available through other
When I heard the news this morning, I was absolutely furious; but, then I
realized that what I was feeling would motivate me to do something about
Congress and about the President. I realized that if the decision had been
different, that the liberals would be motivated to do something.Just
as Mike Richards said, "THANK YOU, JOHN ROBERTS!". Now the
Conservatives know what happens when a run-amok President and a run-amok
Congress passes legislation that 59% of the people do not want.John
Roberts warned us that elections have consequences. What a profound statement.
By voting as he did, he, by himself, set the course for America in the middle of
an election cycle. He, by himself, did more for the Conservatives in this
Country than anyone else in our history.Now, Obama cannot deny that
he taxed us more than any other President in history.Now. Pelosi has
to admit that passing the bill without proper debate will turn the tide of
politics in America - perhaps forever.Now, Reid knows that
reconciliation was the biggest mistake of his life.Now, the people
know that THEY must be vigilant and that THEY must choose wisely.
@photographermom, while I sustained President Benson as a prophet, seer, and
revelator, I never sustained him as a politician or a political commentator.
Many of his warnings about socialism and communism were bang on; many, however,
were based on rank ignorance. He attributed a lot of things to
"socialism" that have nothing to do with real socialism; a common
occurrence in American political commentary.Besides, trust me,
Obamacare is NOT socialism. I AM a socialist. I know many socialists, and have
argued and hammered out policy with other socialists. I VOTE socialist back in
my home country of Canada (look up the New Democratic Party, now the
"official opposition"/2nd place party in Parliament). Obama is NOT a
socialist. Obamacare is NOT socialist policy. And the Democratic Party is NOT
socialist. (As far as I'm concerned, the Democratic party is just another
"wing" of the "party of the rich"; they're just not as
obtuse and ignorant as the "far-right" wing of that party, i.e. the
GOP.) Most Americans don't have the first clue regarding what socialism is
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establishJustice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote thegeneral Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty
to ourselves and our Posterity, doordain and establish this Constitution
for the United States of America.The Preamble of the Constitution of
the Untited States, copied from the one I have in pdf, tells us that one of the
purposes of this document is to pomote the general Welfare. We will, of course,
argue about all of what this Preamble means, but the general Welfare, without
health, is nonexistent. If one is sick, or, worse, dying or dead, there is no
welfare, general or specific, to be had, that would be worth much. Does this
clarify, perhaps, why it meant so much to our sitting President, to Senator
Kennedy and many others in the last forty, fifty years--of both parties--and why
VP Biden felt the way he did when it passed? I, having a chronic condition and
being a cancer survivor, feel, as Biden did, although I might have been a little
@photographermom, as for using the Book of Mormon, read it carefully. Count how
many times prophets call on the people to repent, and count how many times they
tell them to repent of specific sins. By far the largest number of references
are to being prideful with riches and not sharing their wealth with the poor and
needy. And if you pay attention to what Jesus did and said in the NT Gospels,
again, he says a lot more about sharing wealth and how being rich is basically A
Bad Thing than he does about just about ANYTHING else. So don't tell me
you're sick of me telling the truth about our scriptures and about what Our
Lord and Saviour and the prophets of the Book of Mormon did or said. Trust me,
I'm quite sick of the opposite. Remember, that brown-skinned guy who fed
the poor and hung out with sinners and gave out free healthcare and was against
war and for peace? That wasn't Obama. That was Jesus.
The far right has really had to work hard lately to try to spin themselves a
Nanook of the North,"....Most Americans don't have the
first clue regarding what socialism is and isn't."Thanks.
That needed to be said. Since Obama took office, the terms socialist and marxist
have been glibly hurled around right wing extremists who couldn't give you
the textbook definitions of those terms.
Dear embarrassed Utahn,The Supreme Court said parts of ACA were legal, not
sensible or fundable. Obama does not know how to pay for the Unaffordable Care
Act or how to make individual states spend Medicaid money according to a
national standard. Without that the ACA is in the fantasy category. At least
Romney knows elementary accounting, something Awesome Obama the community
organizer (Did he ever have to balance a check book?) missed on his way to the
WH. You should be embarrassed.
@nanook I am all for sharing and helping and when the time comes to be held
accountable we can all say as a nation that we did these things not because it
was from the goodness of our heart but because your dirty politics forced us
too. Does that sound like Gods plan to you?
@photographermomI get so sick of (Utah) Repubs using the book of Mormon as
an argument. Go and read anything Jesus said. It will, of course, match the BOM
writers. The undebatable message of that book is the dangers of socioeconomic
inequality that inevitably leads to pride and war and destruction. Do democrats go to their local meetings with the mantra "Jesus would be a
democrat?" Nope. A ridiculous thought that he would align with either
American political party, but would probably find principles compatible with his
teachings in the platforms of the various parties. Here's a challenge: try
to identify a part of the dem platform he'd like. My guess would be taking
care of the sick and exhalting the poor in that the rich are made low.
Instead of second-guessing the Affordable Care Act, those of you who think it is
the Devil's work, have the courage to go to your favorite search engine and
look up one of the websites with the actual details. You could start with the
White House site, or one of the government ones if you would prefer.Further, understand: if you can't afford car insurance or proper
maintenance for a vehicle, you can take a bus, ride with someone else, or walk.
If your car dies for want of proper care or lack of fuel or other things,
it's a shame. But if a person lacks food, medicine, health care,
cancer/tumor/injury care, that human being, flesh and blood like you, will die.
In pain, in agony, maybe slowly, maybe outside, maybe cold or dehydrated or
overheated, or alone, and feeling it the way you would. Cars feel nothing. Now,
I put this to you. Can you in good conscience, not concern yourself with this,
when your government has created a way to help prevent this from happening, and
you know it isn't going to happen to a stranger--or to you, or family?
@ Nanook of the NorthJust to let you know that I agree 100% with
you. I see the gospel as a call for social justice and Jesus as our model.In Socialism, Yes, I also agree. Not a bad word but hopefully a
wonderful reality someday."The whole group of believers was
united,heart and soul; no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, as
everything they owned was held in common" Acts 4:32
"I have lost complete faith in the United States and I fear for my kids and
grandkids." --PatriotIf you don't like it you can leave.
The rest of us will rest a little easier knowing we won't have to choose
between the house and the kids' medical bills.
I have a sister-in-law who lived in Canada many years ago and she took the time
to explain to me how the system there actually worked. She said most folks here
don't really understand, and don't even seem to try to learn, how it
works, so there are a lot of misconceptions. But when she explained it, I could
see how it was more sensible than ours, and it would behoove us to work towards
a single-payer system. One thing she did mention was that there was much less
litigation. She told me that it helps bring down medical costs for the docs
there, and it makes sense...even a strong Democrat has to think that some suits
are more about revenge than anything else.
January 15, 1991, The President of BYU gave a devotional address remarking on
the Constitution and the Restoration. The words of his talk and what 5 people
decided for 300 million citizens is remarkable! Even more so, were the words
this morning from Rush L. on talk radio at 9:46 am: "Our constitution is
hanging by a thread!"
I think I can read between the lines. SCOTUS is telling the people that they
can vote for their own bondage. If you want to change bad legislation, you do
it at the ballot box.
A close and careful reading of the opinion of the court may well justify the
conclustion that five justices of the Supreme Court of the United States
actually struck down the individual mandate as unconstitutional.The
method by which the majority allowed ObamaCare to pass constitutional muster was
to recast the law as something it was not at the time it was passed, namely, as
a law that constitutes a tax on the uninsured.The political
ramifications of the decision may well make ObamaCare an albatross around the
next not only of President Obama's tenure but around the necks of all those
who voted for the law.We just might well have an uprising in 2012
that makes 2010 look like -- well -- a children's tea party. It might be
that now the adults will step forward, ready to dump the tea in the drink and a
goodly group of politicians with it.Congress, indeed, can tax to its
heart's content. And voters can react. And likely they will.The
court called a spade a spade.
Thank you supreme court, you just put Romney in the White House.
GregorioNorco, CAYour political opinion is based on a radio
entertainer and a religious program. If that is as deep as the republicans go I
fear for the GOP.
@Marxist::I am really enjoying the angst of the right wingers
here." In theory Marxism is a left wing movement. In practice, all through
the 20th century it has been a right wing movement. Stalin, Mao, North Korea,
the Shining Path guerillas. In 20 years we may see that the practice of this
has been far more right wing that anything that Republicans could have come up
with.Clinton may not be the only double agent among the Democrats.
I've noticed that in the last few days the "under the fold" DN
stories have been all about the "poor, unfortunate" who will suffer if
the Supreme Court struck down "Obamacare". What about the people who
actually work for a living? Is there any chance you guys could just leave us
alone for once?It's one crisis after another- healthcare, global warming
and on and on. No one in my family has been to a Doctor in years except for
routine checkups- are we the exception or the rule? I don't mind chipping
off some tax money for the truly needy but let's be honest - this is just
one more "bureaucrat employment" program designed to increase the need
for "make work" bureaucrats" I wish I had some money-making
prospects outside of this joke of a Country but I don't so I'll stay
here and contend unwillingly with the Monster that's been created.
@dave"Me driving my kids to the park is no more a commercial
activity than breathing."If you spend money to drive your kids
you have engaged in commercial activity."Healthcare is a basic
necessity."It is not a basic necessity. There are societies
throughout the world and across the centuries that had no health care except
what they could devise as an individual or family."Those that
don't, go the emergency department and typically default on thousands of
dollars worth of service."Poor people don't have to go to
the hospital for help. There are available free healthcare facilities across
this country. Further, if hospital emergency rooms would use common sense it
could screen people at entry and send those with simple 'sniffles' to
a free clinic in town. Hospitals don't have to treat a hangnail as a
serious heart attack. "Nobody has been able to show me where
their freedom is being compromised. This means that freedom is just a straw man
argument."The court has swung the door wide open. They now can
tell you to join an exercise club and buy and eat broccoli or pay a penalty.
Do you liberals realize that the ACA is not about actual healthcare, and that
many of its provisions make care more expensive. The ACA is about insurance,
nothing more. Have you asked yourself this simple question: If the government
wants to make healthcare cheaper, why are they going after the middleman instead
of end provider?
@wrzSalt Lake City, UT"Healthcare is a basic
necessity."It is not a basic necessity. There are societies
throughout the world and across the centuries that had no health care except
what they could devise as an individual or family.============== Fine.Go live in Mogadishu or Rwanda.This is
AMERICA.We don't want your vision of America.
To "LDS Liberal" and any other liberal out there. If healthcare is a
basic necessity, then what isn't?Food is also a necessity but
we don't mandate that you buy food.Shelter is also a necessity
but we don't mandate that.Clothes are also a necessity (yes you
could live nude if you wanted to, but you would be confined to your house
because of decency laws).Dental care is nearly equal to healthcare,
so is that next?Transportation is a necessity, do we mandate bus
passes or other transportation purchases?Basic hygene is a
necessity, do we put a tax on that too?Where do you liberals draw
the line for necessities that the government will provide or force you to buy?
wrz,"....It [healthcare] is not a basic necessity. There are
societies throughout the world and across the centuries that had no health care
except what they could devise as an individual or family.There are
also societies throughout the world and throughout history that didn't have
enough food to feed everyone. But we don't regard food as a lusxury item,
now do we? Healthcare, like having enough to eat, can be a life or death matter.
That's something for all of us to think about next Thanksgiving when
we're sitting at the table stuffing our faces with a second or third
helping of turkey and dressing......or when when we go to the doctor for an
So Craig Clark, are you suggesting that the government mandate that we buy food
and impose a fine if we don't? Besides, while healthcare itself CAN be a
life or death matter (note the key word: can), you are missing the point. This
bill is about insurance! Is health insurance a basic necessity? Certainly not.
Can people survive without health insurance? Definitely!Another
question to answer: How will the Affordable Care Act make care more affordable?
To "Craig Clark" you are wrong, we do consider some foods to be a
luxury.How many poor people do you know that eat lobster or filet
mignon?Basic food (much like bandaids, and over the counter
medications) are needed. However, lobster, caviar, and expensive cuts of meat
are luxuries. The restaurant Serendipity 3 has a hamburger that costs $295.
That food item is a luxury, and not a necessity. Fine wines are luxuries.Healthcare is no different. The poor can afford the most basic
healthcare either through over-the-counter purchases or through private clinics
that some insurance companies operate to make care more affordable. If you want
more or better care, you (not the government) will have to pay more. Healthcare
is a luxury because if you want that fancy MRI scan to find the cause of your
problem, it is no different than spending $295 for a hamburger to fill your
@dave,Semantics? Really? You can go your whole life without ever
being required to buy auto insurance or pay a penalty for not buying it.
You're comparing apples to oranges and then complaining about semantics?You can't drive your kids to the park without buying a vehicle,
keeping it maintained,or purchasing gas and oil. Which of these is not a
commercial activity? Other people have torn your comment apart
already, so no need for me to pile on. Bottom line is, previously, I have never
been taxed for NOT ENGAGING in a certain behavior. I have lost the freedom to
refrain from participating in a certain activity. If that's not the most
basic definition of freedom, I don't know what is.
@Craig Clark:"There are also societies throughout the world and
throughout history that didn't have enough food to feed everyone."There is not enough food in the entire world to provide all the food
stuffs that the 6+ billion people on this earth would yearn for and desire."But we don't regard food as a lusxury item, now do we?
Healthcare, like having enough to eat, can be a life or death matter."Life itself is a live and death matter.-------------@LDS Liberal:"Fine. Go live in Mogadishu or Rwanda.
This is AMERICA. We don't want your vision of America."My
vision of America is the same as the Founding Father's vision, vis... it is
not the government's role or prerogative to forcefully take from some and
give it to others... whether what includes redistribution of money, goods, or
food. And, it is perfectly fine and valiant for private citizens to take some
of their excesses and give it to those who are in need, at their sole
" If the government wants to make healthcare cheaper, why are they going
after the middleman instead of end provider?"because your
"middle man" determines what care will be covered and not covered by the
"end provider," the "end provider can go ahead and offer the care
they thinks in the patients best interest but they will quickly be out of
business if the "middle man" does not agree with them.
To "George" wrong. The end provider determins what they will and
won't do, and the price for their services. If the government wanted to
make healthcare cheaper or provide healthcare for those who couldn't afford
insurance it would cost the US less to have the government own and operate the
clinics.If a doctor tells a patient that they need something that is
not covered by their insurance, it is up to the patient to decide what to do.
The doctor will not go out of business, nor will the patient be denied care. It
is up to individuals to determine the value of their own health. Who knows
better how much your health is worth, you or the government? History shows that
governments only value those who are contributors.
screenneme,You brought up semantics then gave a pristine example of
semantics. If you are caught driving without insurance you are
charged with a criminal offense, fined and potentially jailed.You
can't go to any healthcare facility without involving your definition of
commercial activity. Even the "free" clinics are heavily regulated." I have lost the freedom to refrain from participating in a certain
activity." If you are irresponsible and do not have insurance your freedom
will cost all of us that are responsible and pay for insurance and taxes. Your
freedom ends when your exercise of freedom has a negative effect on society.
@redshirt wrong again redshirt. if the patient cannot afford the care
because their insurance will not cover it they most often go without. or wait
until it is life threatening and go to the ER where either their insurance is
forced to pay more or we pay for it through taxes, either way you and i pick up
the bill in higher taxes and/pr premiums. the health insurance agency is not
going to eat the loss. No one has to take my word for it simply look at where
the profits are going its not doctors or you and I, iis insurance companies
posting massive profits.
The recent ACA acceptance is just a small step in the healthcare reform. Many
people in Utah oppose the ACA because they fear the takeover of
"socialist" Obama, and are doing anything in their power to oppose it
due to widespread, misdirected panic and fear set upon them. Is
"Obamacare" the best thing for the nation? Probably not. It gives the
employers greater control in choosing our health care for us. It will cause
taxpayers to give healthcare to illegal immigrants who won't pay a dime. It
will decrease competitiveness in the quality of health care provided by doctors
and hospitals. But at least it pushes us from the stagnation that's been
plaguing our senate for the duration Obama has been in office, and shows that
we're ready to start moving forward. Forward into an uncertain future full
of mistakes? Sure. But at least we're moving. Remember, this act is not the
end of the road. continued...
continued... We should embrace this change, try it out, alter it, and see what
works best for our country. Neither the senate nor our people should shoot down
any ideas because they are new and pose an uncertain future. The worst thing
would be for us to stand still. How can we move forward by fighting each other
at every step? Do we want to spend all our time squabbling over every decision
that is made, repeal every bill that is passed? (We would get nowhere!) Or do we
want to spend time learning what good has come out of this and what doesn't
work for us? We're all so busy being obstinate that nothing will ever
change in our country unless we all give a little ground. I advise everyone to
take part wholeheartedly in this new development in our country's history
and it should help us learn how to shape our healthcare system to make a better
future for all American citizens.
@Nanook of the NorthEverybody always likes to condemn the rich but the
condemnation runs both waysWo unto you rich men, that will not give
your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this
shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of
indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not
saved!Wo unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose
spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands
are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full
of greediness, and who will not labor with your own handsD&C
Shame on you !
per worf @ 11:03 a.m. June 28, 2012Nobody said read my lips.