Comments about ‘In our opinion: Take heart and stand for traditional marriage’

My dear Jeff
You read a lot of things that are not there.

Gay and Lesbians have been adopting and overcoming a lot of obstacles in order to raise children. No compulsion is necessary.

You wrote:
"If same gender marriage is legal, then it becomes legal for all. Since a large part of the population is at least partly bisexual, what is to prevent them from receiving the perceived benefits of same-gender marriage? You?"

I agree 100% with you. I think all people regardless of their sexual orientation should be allowed to marry the one they love.

Jeff is only matter of time. I can assure you that in a few years you will look back and
laugh at your current fears. You will have neighbors and perhaps some relatives that will be marrying someone of the same sex, and life will continue.

Baccus: What you are missing from what I said is that once the door is open, it will be very difficult to shut it.

It was open in the days of Sappho--briefly for her and her colony. They all died out.

Even the Romans and Greeks, who were very tolerant of same-sex relationships, reserved marriage for procreative couples.

One thing that you imply, I need to set clear. You seem to want to suggest that, because you think I will laugh at my current fears, I have no knowledge or experience with gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender individuals, marriages, unions, or anything else. Let me dispel that rumor. It is not so.

I have seen marriages broken by people who were at least bisexual enough to have children, but who then abandoned their spouses and their families for relationships that they chose instead. I have seen people badgered and bullied by homosexuals, encouraged and recruited; I have seen the selfishness that is characterized by a lifestyle that values sexuality above all other relationships. And I have not seen these things in limited proportions.

No, I do not believe that same-gender marriage will ever be anything but wrong.

Again the Lord has defined marriage as only between man and woman. A Proclamation to the World, The Family is quite clear on this. As someone once told me. If I don't agree with the brethern in Salt Lake, I need to get on my knees and pray until I do. Reason is they speak for the Lord Jesus Christ. No one else on this Earth does. At this time the only individual who speaks for him is Thomas Spencer Monson. No one else. Just as those of you who criticize them as irrelevant are doing nothing more than fulfilling prophesy that has been going on since sin came into the world.

Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all mankind as long as the repent and baptized by those who have that authority to do so. Whether you believe this or not is what is totally relevant. It is you who are taking your on eternal progression and destroying it. Not I or anyone who claims as I do.

Man doesn't act on instinct. His nature is better than that. We are not in the same class as other animals. We are here to act.

@Baccus0902

"However, more interesting is your statement "if all marriages were same sex". How would that be possible? Homosexuality and Heterosexuality is part of our genetic code. It is not a choice."

There would be an easy way to test that theory. Just have a gay woman and a gay man have children. Since homosexuality is only a small percentage of the population it seems to point to a recessive gene if that is where you are going with this. If the theory is true then all children born to these gay parents should all have the gene because the gene being recessive means the children get one recessive gene from the mother and another recessive gene from the father. If on the other hand none of the children turn out to be gay than the theory falls to pieces.

Jeff,

Do you know what a red herring argument is? Well, you are proposing one.

Facts: Only about 10% of the population is gay/bi. 90% of the population is heterosexual and they have done a fine job of populating the earth. This has been a pretty consistant level for quite a while, plus many bisexuals fall in love with a person of the opposite sex and can also help. Many gays and lesbians are raising children. They are having these kids the same way that any infertile couple who wants children have them, ie, adoption, ivf, and surrogates. Remember, most gays have perfectly functioning sex organs that can and do reproduce - just not always in the same way that 90% of the population does.

What you suggest in your argument is the same as suggesting that if all women were infertile, the population of the world would die out in one generation. We should then discriminate and not allow any infertile women to marry! See how your argument is false? This is not how Americans treat each other. We do not treat a minority any different than we treat ourselves. That means we are treated equally, right?

zoar63: "There would be an easy way to test that theory. Just have a gay woman and a gay man have children. Since homosexuality is only a small percentage of the population it seems to point to a recessive gene if that is where you are going with this. If the theory is true then all children born to these gay parents should all have the gene because the gene being recessive means the children get one recessive gene from the mother and another recessive gene from the father. If on the other hand none of the children turn out to be gay than the theory falls to pieces."

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If you understand genetics, it is not quite that simple. The allele of the gene must be tripped before the gene is "turned on." In gays, nobody knows what triggers the allele. It might be some event happening in the womb, like an abnormal amount or irregular timing of hormones. It might be some event during early childhood -- before school age. Either way, it is outside the control of the individual and his family of origin.

@Jeff
I'm sorry if you have had some bad experiences with gay individuals. Good and bad people come in all shape, form, races, and orientations.

Many GLBT have suffered at the hands of some heterosexual individuals. Hopefully, they will overcome their traumatic experiences and not judge all heterosexuals based on their terrible experience.

@ZOar63

I wish life and science was as simple as you describe it. Nobody knows the cause of homosexuality. Science tends to favor genetics as the cause, but is still inconclusive.

Other claim is a choice based in environmental issues. Well, the overwhelming majority of homosexuals are born to heterosexual parents. Sometimes one or more children are homosexuals and sometimes none.

Why homosexuals continue being born despite a concerted effort to censure it. Nobody knows.

Some religious people claim homosexuality is a sign of social decadence. However, you find homosexuality in all societies in all stages of development.

@Lane Myer, A "Red Herring" is not a formal fallacy. Do you know what the difference is between formal and informal fallacies?

The problem with informal fallacies is that they are much harder to prove. Sometimes they aren't provable. A formal fallacy can easily be explained with IF P, THEN Q statements. Red Herrings are a false idea to begin with. This is because you arguing that Jeff proposed other arguments in order to distract from the issue at hand. But you don't really know Jeff's motives, so you would be less correct to imply this.

Who's to suggest that an argument distracts from the "real issue" at hand? Who defines what the "real issue" even is? I agree with Jeff and his description of one way that people suggesting this "lifestyle" have hurt families. That has been the majority of my personal experiences as well. While my personal experiences may not convince you, you can't argue against them either.

We all have experiences. To each of us, they are absolutely relevant. Exclaiming 'red herring' to get people to dismiss an argument rather than give it a chance... is a red herring. Pretty ironic.

I have to disagree with President Obama on one issue pertaining to same sex marriage - rules allowing or disallowing such can not be left to the states anymore than freedom of speech can be left up to the states. A U.S. Constitutional right applies to all people in all states. The right to marry a person, or have intimate relations with, a person of another race used to be a felony in 30 states. Each state thought that it could make its own rules. That is, until the U.S Supreme Court case of Loving v. Virginia. And the U.S. Supreme Court will also rule that states can not make their own rules RE: same sex marriages. All states must recognize this right to marry.

Actually long lasting marriage is not about 'love'. Love, sex, passion, happiness, attraction are all emotions that can not be maintained in large amounts for great lengths of time. A great long term lasting marriage is based on trust, respect and a very close friendship. No two people really think alike. A lasting marriage is one where two very different people share common goals and a life time of commitment......I personally believe homosexuality is a sin. Having said that. Everyone should have equal rights under the law, to choose for themselves, the life style they want. Therefore if two or more consenting adults, that are not related, wish to be in a union let them marry. If homosexuals can marry, then we must allow poligamy, bigamy, community marriage, etc...As long as they are all adults and do not interfer with my marriage, why not? No limits....